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Author Topic: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games  (Read 17382 times)

JayhawkBowling

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« Last Edit: September 27, 2012, 09:28:44 AM by JayhawkBowling »

 

kidlost2000

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2012, 04:13:45 PM »
Very informative. Did you also test any bowling balls with a polished finish? For instance the Wicked Siege at box finish is 500 grit plus rough buff polish. Was curious how quickly bowling balls with polish are effected vs the ones you tested with out.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

Nails

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2012, 05:02:02 PM »
Interesting.  In the past we were told that repeatedly throwing a ball down lane would make it rougher due to the friction.  Your 2000 grit was thought to be 600-800 grit after 15-20 games.

I wonder how the machine calculates surface roughness?  We know a lot more about the peaks and valleys in the surface than we used to.  That why on some balls we go 500, then straight to 2000 or 4000 so we keep the inherent roughness of the 500 grit, but smooth out the peaks just enough to get the ball through the front part of the lane better.

ccrider

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2012, 08:18:45 PM »
Have these results been replicated enough to prove reliable?  I remember reading that over time surface friction causes the ball to move towards 2000. Is this  bad information?

I have not seen my 500/1000 finished covers reacting like 4000 finish covers after three to four games. Looking at the track on my 500/1000 finished ball where I now see  visible scratches in the track area, I have a hard time believing that the track is closer to 4000 after three games than to 500. The track was not visible when I took it out of the haus.

Nails

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2012, 07:51:33 AM »
It would be interesting to see what the Jayhawk machine said the surface was of a ball that was 500/4000 vs. one that was 500/1000/2000/4000.  If they read different, the machine must be reading just the peaks vs. the underlying surface.

kidlost2000

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2012, 09:07:05 AM »
It says on the ball that started at 1500 it ended at close to 4500 or so after 3 games. It also said you would want to resurface the ball after every set.

Got to thinking, in many cases especially when buying a new ball, most bowlers don't start liking a balls reaction till they get 5-10 games on a bowling ball. We see that after 3 games on a high grit ball it pretty much maxes out with very little change in surface. So there may be something said for breaking in a ball, and for not adjusting the surface so often.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

ccrider

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2012, 09:12:46 AM »
I think something is missing here. I do not see a ball finished at 1000 grit reacting like a ball finished at 4000 grit after 3 games. Is that what you guys are seeing on the lanes? 

JayhawkBowling

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2012, 09:28:26 AM »
Great Questions  :)

What this machine does is read about 40,000 points along the equator of the ball in about 5 seconds.  It uses an optical laser to measure the Ra and RS values and gives a grit estimate based on this information.  One can have it display in Ra or RS but most people don't relate to a 1000 grit being 20 Ra, so this video was done in grit mode.  It also has a feature called feature enhance mode that helps identify the pattern of the surface (this was not shown in this video).  An easy way to think of it is to think about a tire.  The height of tread is (Ra), the distance between tread is (RS), and the pattern used is (feature enhance).  This means that there can be two identical balls that measure very similar for Ra and RS but have a different roughness pattern so they will have different on lane tendencies.

What we have learned with our testing is that if two surfaces are rubbed against each other, the softer surface will migrate closer and closer to the harder surface.  This basically means that a bowling ball will migrate to the surface of the lane.  A ball will migrate to a smoother surface on synthetic lanes than wood lanes.  A polished ball is already very smooth and the surface will stay more consistent for a longer period of time on a synthetic lane because they are similar.  The one factor that will change is the tread pattern from being skidded along the lane over and over.  This also means that a polished ball will also scuff up more on a wood lane because it is rougher.

Keep in mind that just because you are using a 500 grit pad does not mean that the ball is perfectly 500 grit.  It just means that a 500 grit pad was used to get this balls current surface.  Feel how rough the pad is before it is used on a ball, and then feel how rough the ball is after being scuffed.  The ball will feel much smoother than that 500 grit pad.

This is some exciting technology and is being used by almost every manufacturer in ball testing and production lines.  It is also being used by pro shops to help get bowling balls back to there ideal surface and for comparing surfaces of a customers arsenal.  Were just scratching the surface here on pro shop technology with this awesome tool, so please keep the questions coming.

Russ Wilson
Jayhawk Bowling
http://jayhawkbowling.com/   

kidlost2000

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2012, 01:10:39 PM »
Very cool. I think mine have been answered in regards to polished bowling balls. Thanks
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

StickZ

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2012, 03:48:43 PM »
so basically, a ball with surface is more likely to not have the same ball reaction through the 3 game set as a 4000 polished ball would?

JayhawkBowling

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2012, 03:55:38 PM »
StickZ

You are correct :)

A polished ball will not change as much as a ball that has a lot of surface on it in a three game period.  (Especially true on a new synthetic lane surface.)  Now take this ball to a wood house, or on lane shield and this nice shiny ball will get rougher in the track area because of the lane bed being rougher than synthetics.  So if you bowl in a wood house or a house with guardian/laneshield, you will need to keep up with that shiny ball because it will dull down very quick.  You will end up with a ball that is dull in the track area (not good when you want the ball to get down the lane) and when the ball flares to the rest of the ball that is shiny it will be trying to hook down lane (not good when you want the ball to hook).  I know I don't like bowling balls that hook at my toes and skid down lane :)

Russ Wilson
Jayhawk Bowling
http://jayhawkbowling.com/
 

Strapper_Squared

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2012, 09:25:34 PM »
I thought I remembered reading somewhere (a whileback) that over time the track area of a ball will tend to migrate towards ~800 grit.  I guess this shows that information/article was false...

Great information and application of technology.
Thank you for sharing.

Scott
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kidlost2000

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2012, 09:50:37 PM »
It doesn't mean it was false. It is relative to the surface your throwing the ball on. So the smoother the surface, like synthetic lanes, that will be what direction the ball cover will migrate too. The rougher the lane surface, like wood lanes, the rougher the ball surface will migrate towards. So if the lane surface was in the ball park or roughness close to 500-800 grit that will be what surface your ball surface will go towards as you bowl.

Literally your resurfacing the ball with the lanes every time you bowl. It is just a matter of what roughness or smoothness your bowling on.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

charlest

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2012, 11:07:14 PM »
I thought I remembered reading somewhere (a whileback) that over time the track area of a ball will tend to migrate towards ~800 grit.  I guess this shows that information/article was false...

Great information and application of technology.
Thank you for sharing.

Scott

No, it wasn't false, Scott. It's just old information.
On wood lanes, balls would tend to migrate toward a 600 grit US/CAMI surface. That was originally, as far as I know, from Bob Summerfield, deceased publisher of BTM. (he may have gotten the info from someone else.)

Synthetic lanes is another, different case.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

charlest

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Re: awesome video showing how much a ball changes in three games
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2012, 11:12:26 PM »
Russ/Jayhawk,

Were the synthetic lanes on which this test was done new?

I had heard that on synthetic lanes, surfaces tend towards 2000 grit. The 4400/4900 grit surface is quite a bit finer that that. I would have thought 4000 grit balls tended towards 2000 grit. Now I'm wondering if that 2000 grit surface was on older, used synthetics??

And of course, some AMF HPL (?) synthetics have quite a bit more friction than Brunswick's Anvillane surface. So would balls tend to different grit levels on different friction levels of the different brands of synthetics??
"None are so blind as those who will not see."