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Author Topic: true urethane surface management (Read 1684 times)

HackJandy

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true urethane surface management
on: July 13, 2017, 09:51:16 PM
Got my first true urethane ball (modern urethane) recently that came from the factory at 500 grit abralon.  Just curious how often some of you all touch up the surface by hand or with a spinner?  Also how often do you do a full resurface?  From what I understand surface changes are less pronounced with urethane.  Have about a dozen games on it so far and have not noticed much of a change in reaction so far (other than from the different lane conditions).  Usually quickly touch up final grit or polish of my reactives every dozen to 20 games and do a full resurface every 50 to 60 games.
Faball Burgundy Hammer         Burgundy Hammer Remake
Faball Blue Hammer                 Blue Hammer Remake
Faball Black Hammer               AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Faball Red Razor                      AMF Sumo
Visionary The Crow                  and some boring reactives
C300 EPX T1

HackJandy

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #16 on: July 15, 2017, 10:34:55 PM
Not to be too pedantic but according the following attachment the green pad is closer to 1000 abralon and the maroon is closer to 500 (note that US grit sandpaper does not equal abralon grit).  I also bought the brown which is basically 240 and it cost me $10 for a single 6x9 (aerospace use mostly) but so far has held up remarkably well and is the first step when I do a super deep resurface (very infrequently).  Also got a 5 pack of the light grey which are close to 1500 abralon (didn't realize or wouldn't have ordered a nEat pad either but oh well.  Usually you can get the maroon and light grey 5 pack pads near the paint section of Home Depot very cheap.
Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 11:50:26 PM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy Hammer         Burgundy Hammer Remake
Faball Blue Hammer                 Blue Hammer Remake
Faball Black Hammer               AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Faball Red Razor                      AMF Sumo
Visionary The Crow                  and some boring reactives
C300 EPX T1

HackJandy

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #17 on: July 15, 2017, 10:39:25 PM
>it is probably due to the extreme hardness of true urethane coverstocks

My Crow is definitely harder than any of my reactives but not as much as I thought it would be.  I think the Visionary Ogre Urethane was much harder (and probably more of a true old school urethane) which is why its much more dry condition specific and probably why The Crow can be used on house shots.  The Crow may not be the ball I should be using long term (especially with money on the line and my lack of hand) but working on my consistency right now and the ball is darn durable and I don't have to worry about dead ball with it and unlike some of my reactives I can't just cover up misses on THS with a Brooklyn strike and be like oh well.  Plus I like how consistent the ball reaction is over a session (hardly have to move at all, and so far at all the houses I ball at only had to vary my starting spot 5 boards or so) and love the old school look.
Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 11:28:11 PM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy Hammer         Burgundy Hammer Remake
Faball Blue Hammer                 Blue Hammer Remake
Faball Black Hammer               AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Faball Red Razor                      AMF Sumo
Visionary The Crow                  and some boring reactives
C300 EPX T1

charlest

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #18 on: July 16, 2017, 12:08:03 AM
Not to be too pedantic but according the following attachment the green pad is closer to 1000 abralon and the maroon is closer to 500 (note that US grit sandpaper does not equal abralon grit).  I also bought the brown which is basically 240 and it cost me $10 for a single 6x9 (aerospace use mostly) but so far has held up remarkably well and is the first step when I do a super deep resurface (very infrequently).  Also got a 5 pack of the light grey which are close to 1500 abralon (didn't realize or wouldn't have ordered a nEat pad either but oh well.  Usually you can get the maroon and light grey 5 pack pads near the paint section of Home Depot very cheap.

Sorry, I got my info many years back directly from 3M, the manufacturers of Scotch-Brite pads. I have to trust what they told me over any other source.
They said the Maroon is 320 grit CAMI grade (~320 grit FEPA grade), and the green is 600 grit CAMI grade (~1200 grit FEPA grade).
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Juggernaut

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #19 on: July 16, 2017, 05:12:54 AM
>it is probably due to the extreme hardness of true urethane coverstocks
  I think the Visionary Ogre Urethane was much harder (and probably more of a true old school urethane) which is why its much more dry condition specific and probably why The Crow can be used on house shots

 The Ogre urethane was special. It had/has nothing to do with just being "old school".

 Today, you have the Visionary Crow and the Ogre urethanes.

Back then, it was the Blue and Pink Hammer urethanes.

The Blue is still popular enough you see them on house shots. I have one myself.
(I also still have a pink one too)

 Remember, these are the people who used to own Faball, and (I.M.H.O.)they made the best ball ever known for dry lane conditions, the legendary Pink Hammer.

 Pinkie was the hardest, least porous, urethane shelled ball you could get back then, and it ruled on the dry. Even today, if you ever find one, it would bring a premium price.

 For a while, there had been a great hue and cry for a really good, true dry lane ball, and Visionary made one.

 I'm not saying the Ogre was a Pink Hammer, or that the Crow is a Blue Hammer, but the same people did make them both, and if anybody should know how to make a urethane ball, it is these folks.........

leftybowler70

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #20 on: July 16, 2017, 08:26:05 AM
I wish I could of taken advantage of these pieces back then....   :-\

Juggernaut

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #21 on: July 16, 2017, 10:14:29 AM
I wish I could of taken advantage of these pieces back then....   :-\

 I remember when the Blue Hammer first came out, it hooked so much on our house shot that I could not use it.

 I was using a Yellow Dot on fresh, and a Black U-Dot on oil.  Got my hands on a Black Hammer, and was amazed at the true roll it had and the carry as well. That's what got me in the Faball bandwagon, and I still use them to this day.

 I honestly believe their success with being the best urethane ball out there helped to play into their ultimate demise. They were late in coming to the reactive resin party (in spite of having created one early on), due to, I.M.O., their lack of belief that anyone would/could prefer the unpredictable hook that resin created, or that anyone would prefer that over the great, truest rolling urethane balls on the market.

 They (Faball) were wrong, resin won out, and Faball died an untimely death. They owned the Hammer brand name, but that was eventually sold to Ebonite.

 Out if those ashes, Visionary was born. Sadly, it never received the adulation or market share that Faball once had. Resin made it almost impossible for anyone to dominate the market with a product that much superior to the competition ever again.

 Heck, if I had the money, I could contract a manufacturer to run me a ball of my own design, get it approved, and have something as good as anything else on the market.
 Problem is, not many are going to spend $200 on the unknown Stumpwhacker 2000 when they can spend it on a known quantity "name brand" ball.


P.S. Visionary was starting to develop quite a niche following when, for some unknown reason, they designed and sold a bunch of "Z spin" balls, but didn't tell everybody that's what they were, and many people got burned when the balls got drilled as though they were normal "Y spin" balls.

 Balls came out far weaker after drilling than they were supposed to be, and when people found out why, they were not amused.
 In fact, people didn't like that much at all, and they lost quite a few customers over that I'm afraid.

HackJandy

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #22 on: July 16, 2017, 10:35:28 AM
>it is probably due to the extreme hardness of true urethane coverstocks
  I think the Visionary Ogre Urethane was much harder (and probably more of a true old school urethane) which is why its much more dry condition specific and probably why The Crow can be used on house shots

 The Ogre urethane was special. It had/has nothing to do with just being "old school".

 Today, you have the Visionary Crow and the Ogre urethanes.

Back then, it was the Blue and Pink Hammer urethanes.

The Blue is still popular enough you see them on house shots. I have one myself.
(I also still have a pink one too)

 Remember, these are the people who used to own Faball, and (I.M.H.O.)they made the best ball ever known for dry lane conditions, the legendary Pink Hammer.

 Pinkie was the hardest, least porous, urethane shelled ball you could get back then, and it ruled on the dry. Even today, if you ever find one, it would bring a premium price.

 For a while, there had been a great hue and cry for a really good, true dry lane ball, and Visionary made one.

 I'm not saying the Ogre was a Pink Hammer, or that the Crow is a Blue Hammer, but the same people did make them both, and if anybody should know how to make a urethane ball, it is these folks.........

Ok that clears it up.  Wish the Ogre Urethane would have still been available (don't even see them on ebay, urethane at least safer to buy 2nd hand) before I bought the new blue hammer (although for the price its a darn fine ball as well).  The Ogre and Crow would make a great Visionary 1&2 urethane punch on everything but a flood (what last particle pearl ball out The Raven would be for).  Still Hammer and Visionary do complement each other well for the Faball nostalgia in modern times.
Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 10:44:50 AM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy Hammer         Burgundy Hammer Remake
Faball Blue Hammer                 Blue Hammer Remake
Faball Black Hammer               AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Faball Red Razor                      AMF Sumo
Visionary The Crow                  and some boring reactives
C300 EPX T1

avabob

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #23 on: August 12, 2017, 03:53:34 PM
One of the reasons that resin became the ball of choice over urethane was the move to much longer oil patterns even before resin was introduced.  Oil length was limited to 24 feet during most of the 80's.  Resin had most of it's advantage on long oil or carry down.  By the time resin was introduced oil lengths were out past 30 feet.  Extra length plus carrydown put urethane at a huge carry disadvantage.

Juggernaut

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #24 on: August 12, 2017, 04:47:42 PM
One of the reasons that resin became the ball of choice over urethane was the move to much longer oil patterns even before resin was introduced.  Oil length was limited to 24 feet during most of the 80's.  Resin had most of it's advantage on long oil or carry down.  By the time resin was introduced oil lengths were out past 30 feet.  Extra length plus carrydown put urethane at a huge carry disadvantage.

 Which sort of explains why I still like urethane. Many times, with my ball speed and release, resin balls hook too much or too hard. Conversely, urethane used to do the same thing for me back when patterns were shorter and urethanes were popular. Back then, I was still using rubber and plastic.

 I don't usually have the same carry problems with urethane that many do, but one of the drillers I used to have told me I was a "freak of nature" because of it. Guess so.....

HackJandy

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #25 on: August 12, 2017, 05:09:15 PM
At least why you like urethane is rational.  Almost all my 230+ games were with resin and yet urethane still makes up half my arsenal.  The edge to bowling mostly for fun and not money is don't necessarily have to have the perfect ball to score with to enjoy a trip to the lanes.  Love how urethane rolls even if carry does bite me sometimes.  In fact using mostly urethane has increased my accuracy so when I do bust out resin can often put up some big scores.
Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 05:20:42 PM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy Hammer         Burgundy Hammer Remake
Faball Blue Hammer                 Blue Hammer Remake
Faball Black Hammer               AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Faball Red Razor                      AMF Sumo
Visionary The Crow                  and some boring reactives
C300 EPX T1

JamminJD

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #26 on: August 12, 2017, 06:41:43 PM
>it is probably due to the extreme hardness of true urethane coverstocks
  I think the Visionary Ogre Urethane was much harder (and probably more of a true old school urethane) which is why its much more dry condition specific and probably why The Crow can be used on house shots

 The Ogre urethane was special. It had/has nothing to do with just being "old school".

 Today, you have the Visionary Crow and the Ogre urethanes.

Back then, it was the Blue and Pink Hammer urethanes.

The Blue is still popular enough you see them on house shots. I have one myself.
(I also still have a pink one too)

 Remember, these are the people who used to own Faball, and (I.M.H.O.)they made the best ball ever known for dry lane conditions, the legendary Pink Hammer.

 Pinkie was the hardest, least porous, urethane shelled ball you could get back then, and it ruled on the dry. Even today, if you ever find one, it would bring a premium price.

 For a while, there had been a great hue and cry for a really good, true dry lane ball, and Visionary made one.

 I'm not saying the Ogre was a Pink Hammer, or that the Crow is a Blue Hammer, but the same people did make them both, and if anybody should know how to make a urethane ball, it is these folks.........

Ok that clears it up.  Wish the Ogre Urethane would have still been available (don't even see them on ebay, urethane at least safer to buy 2nd hand) before I bought the new blue hammer (although for the price its a darn fine ball as well).  The Ogre and Crow would make a great Visionary 1&2 urethane punch on everything but a flood (what last particle pearl ball out The Raven would be for).  Still Hammer and Visionary do complement each other well for the Faball nostalgia in modern times.

Jason Wonders has said that if he had to compare the Ogre U it would be to the Pink Hammer which was hard back in the day. And The Crow is close to the Original Blue Hammer as far as cover goes...

Juggernaut

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #27 on: August 12, 2017, 06:53:13 PM
Quote
Jason Wonders has said that if he had to compare the Ogre U it would be to the Pink Hammer which was hard back in the day. And The Crow is close to the Original Blue Hammer as far as cover goes........

 Makes perfect sense to me.  ;D


hammajangs

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #28 on: August 12, 2017, 07:22:40 PM
I bowl on old wood lanes too and my arsenal was a Storm Ride, Joyride, and Super Natural, until the Joyride cracked into fours. Looking for a replacement and still interested in the Fanatic BTU Pearl, haven't seen one thrown (live) and not too much real world feedback. Hope to hear more about it soon.

HackJandy

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #29 on: August 12, 2017, 07:29:18 PM
>it is probably due to the extreme hardness of true urethane coverstocks
  I think the Visionary Ogre Urethane was much harder (and probably more of a true old school urethane) which is why its much more dry condition specific and probably why The Crow can be used on house shots

 The Ogre urethane was special. It had/has nothing to do with just being "old school".

 Today, you have the Visionary Crow and the Ogre urethanes.

Back then, it was the Blue and Pink Hammer urethanes.

The Blue is still popular enough you see them on house shots. I have one myself.
(I also still have a pink one too)

 Remember, these are the people who used to own Faball, and (I.M.H.O.)they made the best ball ever known for dry lane conditions, the legendary Pink Hammer.

 Pinkie was the hardest, least porous, urethane shelled ball you could get back then, and it ruled on the dry. Even today, if you ever find one, it would bring a premium price.

 For a while, there had been a great hue and cry for a really good, true dry lane ball, and Visionary made one.

 I'm not saying the Ogre was a Pink Hammer, or that the Crow is a Blue Hammer, but the same people did make them both, and if anybody should know how to make a urethane ball, it is these folks.........

Ok that clears it up.  Wish the Ogre Urethane would have still been available (don't even see them on ebay, urethane at least safer to buy 2nd hand) before I bought the new blue hammer (although for the price its a darn fine ball as well).  The Ogre and Crow would make a great Visionary 1&2 urethane punch on everything but a flood (what last particle pearl ball out The Raven would be for).  Still Hammer and Visionary do complement each other well for the Faball nostalgia in modern times.

Jason Wonders has said that if he had to compare the Ogre U it would be to the Pink Hammer which was hard back in the day. And The Crow is close to the Original Blue Hammer as far as cover goes...

Bravo to the Wonders family in general but I wish they had another super hard urethane like the Ogre in their current lineup.  From what I understand though its a real pain to make them (QA real challenge) and something about it being a violent process or something.  Still would be great.
Faball Burgundy Hammer         Burgundy Hammer Remake
Faball Blue Hammer                 Blue Hammer Remake
Faball Black Hammer               AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Faball Red Razor                      AMF Sumo
Visionary The Crow                  and some boring reactives
C300 EPX T1

HackJandy

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Re: true urethane surface management
Reply #30 on: August 13, 2017, 12:51:57 PM
Going back to original topic of thread my advice to anyone with urethane is get yourself a box of 7447 maroon scotchbrite pads from Home Depot and just touch up your urethanes by hand with them every few sessions like one of the posters says above (spinner eats up too much surface over long haul except for maybe a once or twice a season resurface).  It puts a good amount of surface on the ball without getting carried away.  If put polish and/or use high grit then obviously just do the same maintenance you would with a reactive with same surface.   Tend to prefer a lot more surface on my urethanes though because mechanical friction is key with them (and only friction you are going to get) and they need to start to bite early to get much entry angle with them.
Last Edit: August 13, 2017, 02:52:45 PM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy Hammer         Burgundy Hammer Remake
Faball Blue Hammer                 Blue Hammer Remake
Faball Black Hammer               AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Faball Red Razor                      AMF Sumo
Visionary The Crow                  and some boring reactives
C300 EPX T1