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Author Topic: Change span or pitch?  (Read 14081 times)

lefty50

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Change span or pitch?
« on: September 01, 2017, 08:06:43 AM »
Working with my PSO, who has been a big help, but I'd like to incorporate feedback  from the group please. 

I have a 0/0 thumb slug with very little bevel that, although fairly comfortable, tends to have me losing the ball early once in a while no matter what I do. As an experiment, I've drilled another slug using 1/8 forward pitch. Now I've started to hang up in the ball on about 70% of shots. Pulling my fingers out a little helps. The ball definitely feels more solid on my hand, but it's almost like I've gone too far with the small 1/8 adjustment. I know that the 1/8 forward makes my span seem longer.

I already tried increasing bevel slightly on the 1/8 forward. It's not bad, definitely in the right direction, but not as solid on my hand and once in a while slips. I want to keep that solid feeling since it leads to a relaxed release.

What's the next thing to try?

- Make a change on lateral pitch instead to hold the ball longer
- Go back to zero and reduce the bevel
- Adjust span down to accommodate the 1/8 pitch

What have you found to be most successful in your testing?

As always, thanks in advance
L50

 

Gunso

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2017, 08:37:51 AM »
don't use the thumb but a friend has really experimented with forward pitches in his thumb and he found out that he needed to offset the forward in the thumb with reverse in the fingers.

Steven

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2017, 09:09:24 AM »
Has your PSO verified that your span is in the correct range?

bowling_rebel

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2017, 09:29:41 AM »
How many games did you bowl with the 1/8th forward before adding in bevel? Myself, I've done many experiments with changing forward pitch, and sometimes the original impression isn't best to go off of.  If didn't bowl much with it, it may be best to just give it some time.

Adding bevel will make come out easier. A really sharp bevel will cause hang. What may have been doing originally was compensating for too little forward by using a very sharp bevel. It may be that more even more forward pitch is needed, with the added bevel. But between bevel, pitch, and then span changes there are a lot of tweaks that can be made.

The degree of bevel can have a profound effect on feel and is rarely talked about. Sharp bevel causes thumb to hang, but it's sort of like a fake way of keeping thumb in ball longer. More forward pitch secures the base of thumb in hole. Doing it with bevel is similar, but it's more like getting a sharp edge to stick, and it will be hard to have consistent feel from session to session or different seasons/time day doing it that way.

Keep in mind what many people who start to add forward pitch learn is the longer they use it, the more forward pitch they feel comfortable with.

Myself have used 0 forward up to where am now at 1/2 forward. I've tried every pitch in between. I'm not a PSO, just some guy who has done a lot of experimenting. I have found for myself that span changes to compensate for pitch is very, very overrated. Yet, if you add in 1/4 forward, maybe need to alter span slightly, but any needed span change from only 1/8 forward pitch would by my guess be minuscule.

In your case reducing span will cause ball to come out faster. Since you want the ball to stay on thumb longer, then if a hypothetical span change is called for, it would be more span.

Adding reverse in the fingers, in this case, would cause ball to fall off of fingers, so then it's slipping out of thumb, and coming off fingers faster - not good. Yes, it is possible for adding forward pitch to cause my tension in fingers (not my experience at all, but others do find it happens).

So conclusion from random guy on Internet who has tried dozens of these changes -

If it was slipping originally probably needed more forward pitch and you had been compensating by using very sharp bevel. Once added forward pitch had trouble matching bevel to the pitch. Added in some bevel and started to slip again.

What I would do if me. Add more forward pitch and keep moderate bevel.

for anyone else reading, what causes need for more forward pitch:
-short span
-short thumb
-dry/slippery thumb
« Last Edit: September 01, 2017, 09:32:02 AM by bowling_rebel »

lefty50

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2017, 09:40:34 AM »
Thanks for the input. Interesting that no one has mentioned lateral yet... To answer questions...
PSO really leans toward feel rather than exact span range per se, but we have discussed and both agree it's within the normally prescribed 1/8 range standard.

I had 6 games over 2 sessions before playing with the bevel. I've also used 4 different balls with same results (PSO's good at hitting the lines)   :)

I appreciate the comment on sharp bevel. In retrospect, I absolutely was using sharp bevel as you mentioned, to help hold the ball. That's why I started experimenting.

bullred

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2017, 11:00:26 AM »
Is your ball swing and approach in perfect sync??  Are you holding the ball correctly? The easy, but sometimes wrong approach is to fool with grip.

JohnP

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2017, 11:16:16 AM »
Do you "knuckle" your thumb?  That's bending it at the knuckle and gripping with the tip.  If so, that's the first thing to correct.  Any pressure needed should be applied with the base of the thumb.  --  JohnP

lefty50

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2017, 11:44:00 AM »
John, I do that a bit, yes. It's something I'm working on. For purposes of this discussion though, we can assume that all releases are done as cleanly as I am currently capable of doing, which is admittedly imperfect.

Steven

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 12:11:30 PM »
I got caught up in the "shorter span / forward pitch" frenzy a few years ago and unfortunately went overboard. Sometimes it felt great, but too often like you described, I was losing the ball early -- even at 1/8" forward. At 1/4" forward I would hang sometimes. It was very frustrating.
 
About 6 months ago I had my grip completely reevaluated. The PSO recommended going to a longer span with 1/8" reverse in the thumb. He also adjusted the pitches in my fingers with more reverse. My initial thought was "no way!!", but I had him drill up a ball to try it out.
 
I'm with that new grip and couldn't be happier. It was counter intuitive to what I though was "right", but it's the best I've ever felt. I have no squeezing, and my release is as consistent as it's ever been.
 
Our symptoms were similar (that's why your post caught my attention), but of course this may not apply to you. Still, I would look more to span as being the culprit in the overall scheme of things. I've never been able to pitch my way out of an incorrect span.

bullred

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2017, 12:16:24 PM »
To continue JohnP's reply. Probably the most common problem bowlers have is holding onto the ball.  There are  myriad reasons why it is difficult to hold onto the ball and release consistently.  Until they are addressed, attacking the grip is of no use.  A certain amount of "control" can be attained by quick fixes, but if you don't have all the variables kind of accounted for, you're not fixing anything.  If you and your PSO are fixated on just your grip, good luck.

JustRico

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2017, 12:36:44 PM »
Span dictates pitch/angle
Adjusting the pitch on a bad span is a bandaid
If you have to back your fingers out to have it feel correct is improper technique
Create proper span and adjust angles accordingly and also make sure swing is not to steep
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
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bowling_rebel

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2017, 08:42:43 PM »
It is impossible to properly hold onto the ball without a correct grip. Trying to fix other things when the grip is wrong is beyond pointless.

You can not out bowl a poor grip.

It is impossible.

It's also not difficult to find guys who drop the ball every show and just know they need forward pitch.

I had like 10 guy years ago insist that I must have reverse pitch.
Then quit bowling for years.

When got back into it, somehow ended up driving like 3 hours to see Mike Luongo, he took one glance at my hand and told me I needed at least 1/4 forward pitch.

In this case, if one thing consistently happens with zero pitch and another with 1/8 forward, then it's a grip issue.

Can't repeat enough - you can not out-bowl a poor grip.
Nor can you out-coach a poor grip.
Obviously as someone improves and learns what works, they can modify and perfect their grip, but you can't get anywhere if the grip does not allow you to hold onto the ball.

JustRico

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2017, 08:29:33 AM »
You CAN outbowl a bad grip it happens ALL the time...starting with Mark Roth...go out on tour you see it ALL the time...
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
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JustRico

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2017, 09:07:00 AM »
Btw there is NO perfect grip or angle for gripping...and the bowler should not be gripping the ball...it is supported by the wrist and having it properly fit to your hand that keeps it on the bowlers hand...gravity & momentum is what releases it...not the bowler needing to 'get' it off their hand
Two things effect the creation of the swing...the amount of muscle in the arm & grip which causes its redirection...and the amount of pull effecting the timing
You can have a 'perfect' grip and terrible timing and you can have a terrible grip that creates the timing but everyone is individual primarily due to strength
A steeper swing plane may require more 'help' from the gripping angles in supporting the ball and a flatter swing plane may require less
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JohnP

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Re: Change span or pitch?
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2017, 11:18:27 AM »
Quote
Span dictates pitch/angle

Rico -- Would you be OK with changing this to "spans plus joint flexibilities dictate pitch/angle"?  --  JohnP