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Author Topic: If CG's don't matter, then......  (Read 1252 times)

xrayjay

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If CG's don't matter, then......
« on: October 10, 2017, 11:15:26 AM »
Drill angle and the "scientific" numbers for dual angle layouts on symmetrical balls are just a "marketing thing", just plain bs. ???? Or it's legit?

When does the cg matter in a drill angle on a dual angle layout? (besides wanting a x hole)

if a drill angle on a ball was 90* and another at 50* (assuming no xhole is required) and having the same pin to pap location of course, there will be no difference if the ball reads the lane later or earlier right?

So, why did MO come up with this fancy layout method?

I don't know, that's why I ask..........
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Luke Rosdahl

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 11:34:59 AM »
On symmetrical balls, pin position is all that really matters, cg matters for static weight considerations, but it's a big deal on asyms.  It's just easier to keep it universal though instead of trying to explain all the particulars. 
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JohnP

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 11:38:20 AM »
First, as you alluded to, the drill angle always matters on asymmetric balls.

True, on symmetrical balls the after-drilling psa ends up near the thumb hole and can only be changed by adding a balance hole.  To the best of my knowledge, Mo has never stated why he started out using dual angles for symmetrical balls.  I think the answer is that when he first developed the technique it was not fully understood how much the thumb hole influenced the after-drilling psa location.  I no longer use the complete dual angle system for symmetrical balls.  Instead I use the old pin to PAP + pin to CG to position the CG where I want it then use the drill angle to complete the layout.  This has worked well for me.  --  JohnP

ignitebowling

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 11:41:24 AM »
The core is shifted slightly to create a heavy spot that takes into account that the finger/thumb holes will be moving weight from one side of the ball once drilled.

So a ball will have top weight. You can have 3 ozs top or bottom weight after drilling of a bowling ball. If the ball  had very low or zero top weight it increases the chances that after drilling holes the ball would be over on bottom weight. In the same respect some balls can have too much top weight to be made legal like 6+ ozs.

By shifting the top weight to certain areas we can then add weight holes to affect the balls reaction by increasing or decreasing the flare. How it relates to drilling and layouts is the cg could end up somewhere that causes too much weight that is in a location you do not wish to add a weight hole to fix having too much static weight.

You are allowed one once of static weight ex. finger, thumb, or side weight.
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bergman

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 12:33:17 AM »
^^^Luke Rosedahl^^^

HankScorpio

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 06:22:31 AM »
Drill angle and the "scientific" numbers for dual angle layouts on symmetrical balls are just a "marketing thing", just plain bs. ???? Or it's legit?

When does the cg matter in a drill angle on a dual angle layout? (besides wanting a x hole)

if a drill angle on a ball was 90* and another at 50* (assuming no xhole is required) and having the same pin to pap location of course, there will be no difference if the ball reads the lane later or earlier right?

So, why did MO come up with this fancy layout method?

I don't know, that's why I ask..........


You have to keep in mind, Mo's claim to fame is his asym cores. Until the Motion series at the end, Morich didn't even have a symmetric core. Before that, he invented the offset core, etc.

So to answer "why did he invent this fancy layout method" - he invented it because it worked for his balls. I would imagine it's used for symmetric cores as well for consistency purposes, as Luke said.

Back when he used to post on BowlingChat, Mo was always pretty clear that he was selecting the drill angle on symmetrics entirely for weighthole versatility.

Juggernaut

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2017, 08:46:12 AM »
 When Mo worked for Hammer (the old faball company), he originated the marking of the psa on asymmetric balls. I think the 3-D offset was the first, and the psa was the “hot” spot.

 The drilling’s he developed using that core were called (naturally) hot spot drilling techniques.

 Now, smart people being what they are, they tend to want to simplify and quantify at the same time, and with some help, Mo did that by finding a better, simpler way to express those same techniques, and that is with the virtually unflappable dual angle system.

 Using simple geometry, Mo was able to both quantify and simplify his terms and techniques enough that even goofballs like me could eventually get a grasp of how it works.

 As for why cg placement is important on a symmetric ball, Mo explains that with examples of how the core dynamics can either be greatly increased, or decreased, by the addition of x-holes in the proper place. Shifting the cg, using the dual angle system, will allow you to manipulate a balls ending dynamics far more than just putting the pin in the right spot and just throwing the cg anywhere.

 That can be advantageous in certain cases. Say you want a ball with a really mild cover, but lots of diff to create track flare. You look, but nobody makes a ball like that, but you MIGHT be able to create it by starting with the right ball, and figuring what angle you need to drill it at to allow you to increase the dynamics to the point you desired to begin with.

 Using the system of dual angles and x-hole placement, Mo was able to increase certain balls dynamics by almost 60%!

AlonzoHarris

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2017, 09:53:58 AM »
As I believe Luke has mentioned in the past, keeping your Drill angle larger than your VAL angle allows for the most post drill options with weight holes, right?
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HackJandy

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2017, 02:01:17 PM »
When Mo worked for Hammer (the old faball company), he originated the marking of the psa on asymmetric balls. I think the 3-D offset was the first, and the psa was the “hot” spot.

 The drilling’s he developed using that core were called (naturally) hot spot drilling techniques.

 Now, smart people being what they are, they tend to want to simplify and quantify at the same time, and with some help, Mo did that by finding a better, simpler way to express those same techniques, and that is with the virtually unflappable dual angle system.

 Using simple geometry, Mo was able to both quantify and simplify his terms and techniques enough that even goofballs like me could eventually get a grasp of how it works.

 As for why cg placement is important on a symmetric ball, Mo explains that with examples of how the core dynamics can either be greatly increased, or decreased, by the addition of x-holes in the proper place. Shifting the cg, using the dual angle system, will allow you to manipulate a balls ending dynamics far more than just putting the pin in the right spot and just throwing the cg anywhere.

 That can be advantageous in certain cases. Say you want a ball with a really mild cover, but lots of diff to create track flare. You look, but nobody makes a ball like that, but you MIGHT be able to create it by starting with the right ball, and figuring what angle you need to drill it at to allow you to increase the dynamics to the point you desired to begin with.

 Using the system of dual angles and x-hole placement, Mo was able to increase certain balls dynamics by almost 60%!

But as I learned the semi hard way at least with plastic don't even bother with a motion hole unless you are some PBA stud.  Might be useful with urethane though, haven't tried.
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Juggernaut

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2017, 02:11:13 PM »
 To use Mo’s motion hole drilling, there are some prerequisites that have to be met. One is pin to cg length, and one is topweight. I’m not sure what they are, but you aren’t going to be able to use a true motion hole drilling on a pancake cored spare ball I don’t think.

 You can, however, use the PBA “plastic ball” layout. It really isn’t just for plastic balls, but for ANY ball with a short pin to cg distance, and is totally different from the motion hole drilling.

 Not every hole is a motion hole, per se, but every hole can change the balls motion in some way.

HackJandy

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2017, 02:31:36 PM »
To use Mo’s motion hole drilling, there are some prerequisites that have to be met. One is pin to cg length, and one is topweight. I’m not sure what they are, but you aren’t going to be able to use a true motion hole drilling on a pancake cored spare ball I don’t think.

 You can, however, use the PBA “plastic ball” layout. It really isn’t just for plastic balls, but for ANY ball with a short pin to cg distance, and is totally different from the motion hole drilling.

 Not every hole is a motion hole, per se, but every hole can change the balls motion in some way.

True.  My point is more that that PBA plastic ball layout isn't that useful on plastic for most people.  Now Mo's 65x4"x30 with double thumb layout on a reactive is butter at least for me.  Not brave enough to try the motion hole on the other side of the ball thing.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 02:35:57 PM by HackJandy »
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Juggernaut

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2017, 02:54:07 PM »
 No, not unless you have a condition that is just too light for anything BUT plastic.

 Like the plastic ball tournaments the PBA had. Condition was SPECIFICALLY for polyester balls, and the pros scored like crazy throwing them.

JazlarVonSteich

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2017, 02:59:04 PM »
True.  My point is more that that PBA plastic ball layout isn't that useful on plastic for most people.  Now Mo's 65x4"x30 with double thumb layout on a reactive is butter at least for me.  Not brave enough to try the motion hole on the other side of the ball thing.

I've used motion hole layouts on 8-10 balls now and there is nothing to be afraid of. As long as your PSO knows what they're doing and doesn't drill the hole blindly, you should be good to go. It's a multi-step process, but not overly complicated. Lay it out, drill the gripping holes and mark where the motion hole should go with tape. Then throw some shots to make sure it is flare safe. Adjust the spot if necessary. Start with a small hole and work your way up until you get the desired reaction.

HackJandy

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2017, 03:05:26 PM »
True.  My point is more that that PBA plastic ball layout isn't that useful on plastic for most people.  Now Mo's 65x4"x30 with double thumb layout on a reactive is butter at least for me.  Not brave enough to try the motion hole on the other side of the ball thing.

I've used motion hole layouts on 8-10 balls now and there is nothing to be afraid of. As long as your PSO knows what they're doing and doesn't drill the hole blindly, you should be good to go. It's a multi-step process, but not overly complicated. Lay it out, drill the gripping holes and mark where the motion hole should go with tape. Then throw some shots to make sure it is flare safe. Adjust the spot if necessary. Start with a small hole and work your way up until you get the desired reaction.

Yeah only one driller in my area I would trust to do it and he is often on tour.  Double thumb works great for me and honestly you quickly reach diminishing returns with flare from what I understand.
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JazlarVonSteich

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Re: If CG's don't matter, then......
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 10:45:20 AM »
Yeah only one driller in my area I would trust to do it and he is often on tour.  Double thumb works great for me and honestly you quickly reach diminishing returns with flare from what I understand.

The two weight holes do different things. Double thumb is used to increase flare. Motion hole is used to increase backend reaction. Double thumb layouts generally get the ball into an earlier roll. Motion hole layouts generally increase length.