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Author Topic: small drill angles is where its at (Read 2724 times)

HackJandy

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small drill angles is where its at
on: January 02, 2018, 02:39:00 PM
The more I throw my new Fix I got drilled 35 x 5 " x 75 balance hole on PAP the more I wish I had discovered smaller drilling angles sooner.  They really are a godsend for high tilt low rev speed dominant bowlers.  Decided to redrill my Lane 1 Stealth Bomber 20x4.75"x30 just to see what a ball does with both angles small and to hopefully turn it from a paper weight (ball had crap for movement) into a useful oiler (will update when get ball back in a few days).  May end up re-drilling a few other balls with smaller angles depending.  Bought too many balls before started paying attention to layouts more than just pin up or pin down.  Even pin up layouts for me ideally should have less than 50 or so degree drilling angle as too little skid length is almost never an issue.
Last Edit: January 02, 2018, 04:31:00 PM by HackJandy
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AlonzoHarris

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #16 on: January 08, 2018, 10:58:30 AM
The idea that layout is more important because now that your ball speed has dropped 10% doesn't make sense. The idea that layout is much less important than the surface only counts when the factors have remained the same.

I'm not going to go 45*4*65 for a guy that throws it 10 mph. I'm going to give him something that retains axis rotation longer. But once you find what's comfortable, the surface is key.

Going 10x3"x35 on my incoming Green Quantum as my hopefully go to fresh oil ball.  Skid sucks and is the enemy.  Sadly as mentioned either here or somewhere else (too lazy to look) also learned need to keep the val angle down also or ball will never roll.  Love my More Cash but at least for league really want 2 piece predictable symmetric comfort balls which hopefully my Quantum and Hy-Road will be.  I want to be consistent more than I want big games (of course plenty of 300s thrown over the years with both those pieces).  When I get a nasty leave with my Hy-Road I have really earned it.  Perfectly fine living off my spares this season (really happy how average has consistently went up since Halloween or so) and working next league year on hopefully having to throw less of them.

That ball should get into a roll early and quick. Depending on the ball, I would need a crap ton of oil to avoid it burning up.

Or a rev rate under 250, ball speed of 17-18mph+ and an axis tilt north of 20 (think more than 25 actually) degrees.  Then you can't even use your Hy-Road very well even with surface on fresh house shot.

Yeah bring that ball speed down lol.
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HackJandy

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #17 on: January 08, 2018, 11:08:48 AM
The idea that layout is more important because now that your ball speed has dropped 10% doesn't make sense. The idea that layout is much less important than the surface only counts when the factors have remained the same.

I'm not going to go 45*4*65 for a guy that throws it 10 mph. I'm going to give him something that retains axis rotation longer. But once you find what's comfortable, the surface is key.

Going 10x3"x35 on my incoming Green Quantum as my hopefully go to fresh oil ball.  Skid sucks and is the enemy.  Sadly as mentioned either here or somewhere else (too lazy to look) also learned need to keep the val angle down also or ball will never roll.  Love my More Cash but at least for league really want 2 piece predictable symmetric comfort balls which hopefully my Quantum and Hy-Road will be.  I want to be consistent more than I want big games (of course plenty of 300s thrown over the years with both those pieces).  When I get a nasty leave with my Hy-Road I have really earned it.  Perfectly fine living off my spares this season (really happy how average has consistently went up since Halloween or so) and working next league year on hopefully having to throw less of them.

That ball should get into a roll early and quick. Depending on the ball, I would need a crap ton of oil to avoid it burning up.

Or a rev rate under 250, ball speed of 17-18mph+ and an axis tilt north of 20 (think more than 25 actually) degrees.  Then you can't even use your Hy-Road very well even with surface on fresh house shot.

Yeah bring that ball speed down lol.

I don't muscle it usually and often need some ball speed due to lack of revs (start with ball at waist and don't get it above shoulder height on the back swing so think I generate a lot speed with my legs).  Probably should get my official stats as guessing on ball speed (overhead monitor high 14s to low 16 mph).  Probably next thing to work on now finally getting a consistent release.
Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 12:53:30 PM by HackJandy
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HackJandy

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 09:07:08 PM
The idea that layout is more important because now that your ball speed has dropped 10% doesn't make sense. The idea that layout is much less important than the surface only counts when the factors have remained the same.

I'm not going to go 45*4*65 for a guy that throws it 10 mph. I'm going to give him something that retains axis rotation longer. But once you find what's comfortable, the surface is key.

Going 10x3"x35 on my incoming Green Quantum as my hopefully go to fresh oil ball.  Skid sucks and is the enemy.  Sadly as mentioned either here or somewhere else (too lazy to look) also learned need to keep the val angle down also or ball will never roll.  Love my More Cash but at least for league really want 2 piece predictable symmetric comfort balls which hopefully my Quantum and Hy-Road will be.  I want to be consistent more than I want big games (of course plenty of 300s thrown over the years with both those pieces).  When I get a nasty leave with my Hy-Road I have really earned it.  Perfectly fine living off my spares this season (really happy how average has consistently went up since Halloween or so) and working next league year on hopefully having to throw less of them.

Been thinking about it and think I am just going to go with a 3" pin to pap and like 30 or 35 val angle.  Drill angle only matters with symmetric balls with a balance hole and need my Quantum to be versatile so think I will avoid a balance hole initially.  Ball will flare plenty as it is and this ball is naturally quick to transition to hook phase.
Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 09:28:36 PM by HackJandy
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JazlarVonSteich

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 10:23:14 AM
Don't overthink it too much. Unless you are an elite bowler bowling on sport shots (and even a lot of pros keep it simple), you're not going to see much difference in ball reaction - especially on house shots. Even if you are an elite bowler bowling on sport shots, ball layouts are still going to be low on the list of things that affect ball motion. Surface is going to have a far greater impact.

I was throwing balls at a Storm demo day a few months back that were set up for lefties. Pins up and to the left of my middle finger - which put the pin to PAP distance at a good 7-8". I'm about 5" over and a little up. On the asymmetrics, the MBs were also well into my track. According to some, these balls should not hook for me. Yet they did. In fact, I threw a Phase II that was set up like this and I kept going brooklyn with it. And yet, I could keep my Show Off in the pocket. I also just sold my two Code balls to my lefty friend - "better" suited for right handers with the layouts, yet he had no trouble hooking them.

In the past, I have let some of these layout "snobs" get the better of me, doing what you are doing now. I experiment with layouts all the time, just to see what will happen since I buy a bunch of balls. Unless it ends up tracking over the holes, differences have been minimal. I've owned multiples of several balls, drilled differently, and at the same surface - or close - there hasn't been much of a difference. Change the surface... yeah.

AlonzoHarris

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #20 on: January 09, 2018, 10:33:48 AM
Good stuff Jazlar.

I watched Marshall Kent in a FB Live video literally draw up his two balls layouts by saying, lets put the pin about here on this one and here on this one. Didn't get all into the measurements, etc. Now granted he's probably laid out hundreds now and can eye where to put markers in relation to his finger holes and roughly know the angles associated with his PAP, but still.
Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:39:38 AM by AlonzoHarris
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HackJandy

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #21 on: January 09, 2018, 10:35:00 AM
Don't overthink it too much. Unless you are an elite bowler bowling on sport shots (and even a lot of pros keep it simple), you're not going to see much difference in ball reaction - especially on house shots. Even if you are an elite bowler bowling on sport shots, ball layouts are still going to be low on the list of things that affect ball motion. Surface is going to have a far greater impact.

I was throwing balls at a Storm demo day a few months back that were set up for lefties. Pins up and to the left of my middle finger - which put the pin to PAP distance at a good 7-8". I'm about 5" over and a little up. On the asymmetrics, the MBs were also well into my track. According to some, these balls should not hook for me. Yet they did. In fact, I threw a Phase II that was set up like this and I kept going brooklyn with it. And yet, I could keep my Show Off in the pocket. I also just sold my two Code balls to my lefty friend - "better" suited for right handers with the layouts, yet he had no trouble hooking them.

In the past, I have let some of these layout "snobs" get the better of me, doing what you are doing now. I experiment with layouts all the time, just to see what will happen since I buy a bunch of balls. Unless it ends up tracking over the holes, differences have been minimal. I've owned multiples of several balls, drilled differently, and at the same surface - or close - there hasn't been much of a difference. Change the surface... yeah.

Yeah I'm all about surface.  Kind of came to same conclusion on layouts.  Definitely not re-drilling any more balls.  Only real layout change that I really noticed was on my Fix and that is because never had such a big difference between small drill and big val before on an asym.  Even then a lot of difference due to my release finally getting consistent so easier to notice other things.
Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 10:36:43 AM by HackJandy
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HackJandy

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #22 on: January 11, 2018, 12:06:08 PM
So finally rolled that Quantum today with 3" pin 2 pap and 30 degrees val and wowzers is that ball strong.  At least with my style its stronger than the More Cash I have drilled 65x4x30 with p4.  I didn't even try to use it with factory and took a white scotch pad to it but it still grabs the lane hard as soon as you lay it down and keeps grabbing until the last 5 feet or so.  Ball goes into hook phase before the arrows.  Going to have to take the surface up and maybe even put polish on it.  Ball very much reminds me of my Burgundy Hammer remake but earlier and like 5 boards stronger overall.  Good deal to finally find a ball too strong for THS with surface in case see a flood.  If you can't get this ball to turn then you are SOL.
Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 12:19:02 PM by HackJandy
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HackJandy

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #23 on: January 12, 2018, 02:44:28 PM
Final post script but taking my 5000 trizact to the ball did wonders.  First non spare ball had to keep with that little surface on THS.  Think I am going to in general just keep the ball lane shined until the next resurface unless hit a flood.  For my style still think this may be if not the strongest ball on the market with a banana shape certainly the strongest that is 2 piece.
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jkirkerx

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #24 on: February 02, 2018, 12:05:19 AM
Sounds like your getting pretty good at this. Im taking about symmetric cores here.

Like my Danger, I knew the cover was weaker than my Trick, so I increased the angle from 35 to 42 degrees and moved the pin right 3/8. Concept being I can skid the ball with a soft release and let the revs build up, so when it hits friction it will bend hard and still retain energy.

In the past I kept angles small to retain energy. But I discovered Im past that point now. I can conserve energy with just my hand.

IMO when you increase angles you have to consider the cover composition and oil your bowling on first. Like when you said it hooked at the arrows and you took the surface up to 5K. Which is 2K twice. Too much surface and the ball speed goes up (17 to 19 MPH) to skid it down the lane and not enough and you have to lower the speed for the core to work (12 to 14 MPH) and get the ball into a really good roll. Its about controlling when the pin stands up to make that change in direction. Whether it gets too early or too late.

These numbers are hypothetical and just used to explain the physics of a core which is a gyroscope mounted in the center of a round ball that has friction on the outside. When the pin stands up the gyroscope has found harmony from its state of chaos. The purpose of the layout is to establish how much chaos is needed before harmony is achieved. By increasing chaos or setting the core farther away from harmony. you can increase flare width or the amount of rings created and continuous fresh surface that is exposed to the lane. So the circumference of the ball times 20 rings can equal say 60 feet of fresh surface free of oil. If the covers too strong to do 20 rings then the ball will decelerate and core will never fully complete the process and hit like a wet paper towel. Most people will change the surface or increase velocity.

Alright Im rambling here. I dont think anyone wants to hear this stuff.
I picked up that nasty little flu virus, must be the cold medicine.



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HackJandy

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Re: small drill angles is where its at
Reply #25 on: February 02, 2018, 10:49:23 AM
Sounds like your getting pretty good at this. Im taking about symmetric cores here.

Like my Danger, I knew the cover was weaker than my Trick, so I increased the angle from 35 to 42 degrees and moved the pin right 3/8. Concept being I can skid the ball with a soft release and let the revs build up, so when it hits friction it will bend hard and still retain energy.

In the past I kept angles small to retain energy. But I discovered Im past that point now. I can conserve energy with just my hand.

IMO when you increase angles you have to consider the cover composition and oil your bowling on first. Like when you said it hooked at the arrows and you took the surface up to 5K. Which is 2K twice. Too much surface and the ball speed goes up (17 to 19 MPH) to skid it down the lane and not enough and you have to lower the speed for the core to work (12 to 14 MPH) and get the ball into a really good roll. Its about controlling when the pin stands up to make that change in direction. Whether it gets too early or too late.

These numbers are hypothetical and just used to explain the physics of a core which is a gyroscope mounted in the center of a round ball that has friction on the outside. When the pin stands up the gyroscope has found harmony from its state of chaos. The purpose of the layout is to establish how much chaos is needed before harmony is achieved. By increasing chaos or setting the core farther away from harmony. you can increase flare width or the amount of rings created and continuous fresh surface that is exposed to the lane. So the circumference of the ball times 20 rings can equal say 60 feet of fresh surface free of oil. If the covers too strong to do 20 rings then the ball will decelerate and core will never fully complete the process and hit like a wet paper towel. Most people will change the surface or increase velocity.

Alright Im rambling here. I dont think anyone wants to hear this stuff.
I picked up that nasty little flu virus, must be the cold medicine.

No what you are saying makes sense and I appreciate the visual.  To be perfectly honest I maybe should work on reducing my insane high axis tilt and also bring my ball speed down even more instead of compensating with strong equipment.  Every time I start tinkering though I start throwing like crap in practice like yesterday and really want to finish league with my ok average and work on it over the summer to get over the top for that 200+ average hopefully.  Lack of energy at the pins is almost never my issue.  More I don't get to ride the adult bumper as much as many people do is what I think.
Last Edit: February 02, 2018, 10:50:55 AM by HackJandy
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