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Author Topic: pin to PAP question  (Read 7851 times)

bkurrell12

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pin to PAP question
« on: May 30, 2012, 03:49:02 PM »
Hopefully someone can help me understand this better.

I believe that pin on PAP and pin 6 3/4" to PAP are both basically stable positions
Pin on PAP the rotation is around the core and will rev up quicker
Pin 6 3/4" from PAP rotation is head over heals if you will and will rev up slower

At 3 3/8" pin to PAP you have the most unstable position.

Now the questions:

1. If pin to PAP is less than 3 3/8" is core moving pin towards PAP as the core tries to stablilize?
2. If the pin to PAP is greater than 3 3/8" is core moving pin towards 6 3/4" from PAP as the core tries to stablilize? (Since that is the closest "stable" position)

If that is true than what is the difference in reaction when you are say 1" above or below 3 3/8" pin to PAP? (2 3/8" pin to PAP vs. 4 3/8" pin to PAP)

Hopefully I have explained this well enough to understand -just ask me if I need to  to clarify.

Your input is appreciated!

 

EFFEN 10

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Re: pin to PAP question
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2012, 06:59:49 PM »
I believe you would get more replies to your
question if you asked here:http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewforum.php?f=13
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gee

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Re: pin to PAP question
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2012, 06:46:37 AM »
Interesting question...

Not the core moves - the ball does it.
The Ball creates less or more flare based on the PIN - PAP Distance.
So you have more flare on 3-3/8 than on 2-3/8 or 4-3/8 and earlier or later ball reaction.

Bowling Tips from Ebonite:
The pin can be placed up to 6 inches from the PAP. The further it gets from the PAP (up to 6 inches away), the longer down the lane it will go before hooking. The further away from the PAP, the higher the RG of the pin position. Every core has a lower RG position and a higher RG position. The lowest RG position of the core is attained when the pin is placed directly on the PAP, the highest RG at 6 inches from the PAP. Referring back to the August tip, the difference between the RG when the pin is on the axis and the RG when the pin is 6 inches from the PAP is called DIFFERENTIAL. The greater the differential, the greater the reaction characteristics between different pin distances. For example, lets examine the Matrix TPS II. The 16# ball has a low RG of 2.53 with a differential of .060. Determining the high RG is as simple as adding 2.53 plus .060. This sum, the high RG, equals 2.59. The RG of the pin placed 6 inches from the PAP would be 2.59, the RG of the pin placed on the PAP would be 2.53. Thus, any pin position would be in between 2.53 and 2.59. The higher the RG, the more energy is stored, the later the ball will release its hook.

To take this example further, we can calculate the corresponding pin distance from PAP and RG value. Our differential for the TPS II is .060 over a distance of 6 inches. This means that there are 7 different RG planes (the original low RG plus 6 from the differential): 2.53, 2.54, 2.55, 2.56, 2.57, 2.58, and 2.59. To find the distance required to move the pin away from the PAP to raise it to another RG level, divide 6 (6.75) by the differential, in this case, 6. You will get a value of 1.125, or 1 1/8 inches. For every 1 1/8 inches you move the pin away from the PAP you will increase the RG to the next value. For a contrast, lets look at the low flaring Cougar. Its differential is .036. Dividing 6.75 by 3.6 gives us 1.875, or 1 7/8 inches. You will have to move the pin further on the lower flaring ball to reach a new RG plane. Smaller shifts will not make as much difference on the Cougar compared to the TPS II. As you can see, knowing the PAP is more critical when the ball“s differential is higher.


So often there is significant difference in 1" changes
Hope this will help you - and my english is not the best  ;)
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bkurrell12

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Re: pin to PAP question
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2012, 03:06:53 PM »
Thanks for the feedback.
I will probably videotape a ball that is say 1 3/8" pin to PAP and one that is 5 3/8 " pin to PAP, mark the PAP point and watch how the PAP moves and see what I can learn.

I now that an "unstable" core postion will move towards a more stable postion, but am not sure id the pin to PAP over 3 3/8" moves toward 6 3/4" pin to PAP or maybe if I am looking at this all wrong.

JustRico

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Re: pin to PAP question
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2012, 08:40:53 PM »
Whatever side of the track the pin is on, i.e. positive or negative, the pin migrates to that axis. This is why the track migrates the way it does when it flares. If you place a pin on the negative side of the track, similar to a full roller layout, for a 3/4 roll, the track flares over the gripping holes. Why? It is migrating towards that axis.
Pin to PAP distances dictate flare as well as ball motion. A pin at 3 3/8" from the PAP is the highest potential for flare. Moving the pin either towards the PAP or the track decreases flare potential as well as shape of motion. A pin closer to the PAP will create an earlier smoother motion vs a pin closer to the track, which will create a later & quicker motion.
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kidlost2000

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Re: pin to PAP question
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2012, 09:15:14 PM »
That article using EBIs information I believe is out dated. I believe that only applies to an undrilled bowling ball. When holes are added to the ball the bowling balls RG and diff are effected and change. By how much and to what extant is based on a lot of crazy math that requires a computer to figure out. This was done by EBI with their computer software to use with any of EBIs bowling equipment.

The Low RG axis marked on the bowling ball as the pin shifts once holes are added. So if you start out with the pin 5" from your PAP when you started adding holes and changing the dynamics of the ball, the low rg axis starts moving. Normally closer to you pap. The low rg axis after drilling could actually be 4.5" from your pap and not where the pin indicator is at initial drilling.

General rule of thumb is that the low rg axis(pin) moves away from holes that are drilled, and the high rg axis(mb/psa) moves towards holes.
…… you can't  add a physics term to a bowling term and expect it to mean something.

JohnP

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Re: pin to PAP question
« Reply #6 on: June 02, 2012, 11:42:50 AM »
http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=69

If you have the time, patience, and technical know-how I think this thread will answer your questions.  --  JohnP

bkurrell12

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Re: pin to PAP question
« Reply #7 on: June 02, 2012, 03:36:24 PM »
Thanks.
I have begun reading the bowlingchat.net thread and realize there is alot to learn about bowling ball dynamics/physics.