Post by: skevr on March 01, 2010, 12:44:05 AM
Post by: bighook69 on March 01, 2010, 01:31:41 PM
Post by: bighook69 on March 01, 2010, 01:50:53 PM
Post by: LaneHammer20 on March 01, 2010, 02:07:34 PM
I myself track literally right next to my finger and thumb, almost clipping them, so probably around 6 over axis, it was 5 3/4 when we checked it last and I was about 1/4 inch lower than I am now.
I never see extreme backend reaction with anything of mine unlike some more average trackers, but when I tuck my pinky i can make it move rather strongly when i tuck my pinky finger and move inside. I can also play strait up the back of the ball walter ray style which works extremely well when it is oily, I am usally the one who has the easiest time with lots of oil.
Dry is my and most higher trackers worst enemy, to much dry can wreak havoc on my ball reaction and carry unless using something like me Hornet.
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What is sandbagging???
Post by: Komodo on March 02, 2010, 01:53:45 PM
Post by: AngloBowler on March 02, 2010, 02:57:14 PM
Limitations on effective drillings (most small diameter track players can't take any pins above fingers too much length).
Might struggle on lots of oil (unless you've got something suitably strong in the bag).
I have a moderately high track, and have lots of problems when there isn't much head oil (although am learning to loft).
Neither of them are "right" they both have their advantages and disadvantages.
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Reporting from England
Post by: ImBackInTheGame on March 02, 2010, 03:15:48 PM
Post by: JohnP on March 02, 2010, 09:49:57 PM
quote:See the links under the axis tilt section of the Unofficial FAQ stickie at the top of the Miscellaneous forum. -- JohnP
Is there any special way to measure track diameter?
Post by: J_w73 on March 02, 2010, 11:39:12 PM
quote:
I have a moderately high track, and have lots of problems when there isn't much head oil (although am learning to loft).
--------------------
Reporting from England
What problems do you see? I'm a high tracker and have been puzzled about the reaction I see on my stuff.. Doesn't seem to be like others around me..
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: dizzyfugu on March 03, 2010, 01:50:27 AM
quote:
Dry is my and most higher trackers worst enemy, to much dry can wreak havoc on my ball reaction and carry unless using something like me Hornet.
+1. My PAP is 5" over and 7/8" up, track is normally very close to the thumb hole and maybe 1/2" from the middle finger.
With my 'normal' release, I stay behind the ball and get a pretty powerful roll and good back end reaction from most of my equipment. From my point of view, I cannot confirm that such a release has little back end - but many of my balls are drilled witha high pin for length and a stacked CG/MB for a sharper break, so that might be the reason behind this.
But dry heads kill this release - I have to add side rotation up to a suitcase grip release to send the ball down the lane. Big probkem, esp. in league with 5-men teams, many high end balls and rather light oil...
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: AngloBowler on March 03, 2010, 03:12:07 AM
quote:quote:
I have a moderately high track, and have lots of problems when there isn't much head oil (although am learning to loft).
--------------------
Reporting from England
What problems do you see? I'm a high tracker and have been puzzled about the reaction I see on my stuff.. Doesn't seem to be like others around me..
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
The biggest issue I have is with rollout. Along with my large diameter track, which makes the ball roll sooner, I also get the ball down really early, so if there's little or no head oil up front, the ball can run out of energy and/or grab really early on the lane giving me a tough reaction (if the pace is off just a little the ball dives through the beak)
--------------------
Reporting from England
Post by: icewall on March 03, 2010, 08:18:00 AM
to get the widest use of lane conditions its good to have between 13 - 20 degrees of tilt. this way the ball hits enough surface of the ball for it to react in both slightly oily and dry conditions.
too little tilt (> 5 1/4" over OR 10+ degrees of tilt) and not enough head oil can really kill your ball reaction!
too much tilt ( < 3 1/4 over OR 24- degrees of tilt) and the ball can get too much length especially in the oil.
if you ask me id be more happy with more tilt then less (not a spinner) because the cores today are so strong they can help a lower track player but a high tracker really is limited on how his ball can be driller.
--------------------
tweener
300 revs
16 mph
17 degrees of tilt
when you''''re feeling blue,
just say to yourself "what would BallBaggins do?"
Edited on 3/3/2010 9:41 AM
Edited on 3/3/2010 9:44 AM
Post by: dizzyfugu on March 03, 2010, 08:21:18 AM
quote:
if you ask me id be more happy with more tilt then less (not a spinner) because the cores today are so strong they can help a lower track player but a high tracker really is limited on how his ball can be driller.
Very good point, and I''d also add the modern coverstocks'' traction ability. They offer so much grip that even a spinner creates good hook down the lane, so that no release "up the back" is necessary to make a ball move. It just becomes overkill when you have a rather roll-favoring release, little oil and lower speed... these are the times
Just had this case last weekend during league: many senior bowlers were tossing (literally) their high end stuff (Invasion, Jigsaw Corner and such), while I had to fight with my Pure Hammer for length and had to switch to my Slate Blue Gargoyle(!!!) for a proper ball reaction. This is really frustrating...
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com''s vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Edited on 3/3/2010 9:23 AM
Post by: icewall on March 03, 2010, 08:51:44 AM
quote:quote:
if you ask me id be more happy with more tilt then less (not a spinner) because the cores today are so strong they can help a lower track player but a high tracker really is limited on how his ball can be driller.
Very good point, and I''d also add the modern coverstocks'' traction ability. They offer so much grip that even a spinner creates good hook down the lane, so that no release "up the back" is necessary to make a ball move. It just becomes overkill when you have a rather roll-favoring release, little oil and lower speed... these are the times
Just had this case last weekend during league: many senior bowlers were tossing (literally) their high end stuff (Invasion, Jigsaw Corner and such), while I had to fight with my Pure Hammer for length and had to switch to my Slate Blue Gargoyle(!!!) for a proper ball reaction. This is really frustrating...
--------------------
<font face=''Arial''>DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com''s vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")</font id=''Arial''>
Edited on 3/3/2010 9:23 AM
I remember when my pap point was somewhere around 5 3/4 and I was trying to learn how to cover more boards. my coach tries to show me how to do it and after a few games my ball turns over and actually hooked in the oil and bounced off the dry... I couldnt believe it. and when the ball came back my track was significantly lower!
at the time i couldnt figure out why and everytime id tell him i was getting more hook that day hed say.... i bet your track was further away from the fingers that day.
I didnt get it at the time but now it makes sense. tilt is very important.
(the main reason my driller kept asking me if my track lowered is because he told me over and over again that he had very little choices of drillings for me and had to keep placing the pin and mb in safe spots as I used to clip the thumb if the pin was placed wrong)
--------------------
tweener
300 revs
16 mph
17 degrees of tilt
when you're feeling blue,
just say to yourself "what would BallBaggins do?"
Post by: x1a4 on March 03, 2010, 09:28:54 AM
letsbowl4money: My ball has plenty of late movement with my track. Ball selection determines when I want the ball to read the lane, not my release.
I am by no means a professional driller (I drill my own stuff but I have not been doing it as long as many people who are on the forums have) but here are a few guidelines I use and have had success with.
I usually try to keep the pin at least an inch above the midline to avoid clipping.
Drilling the middle finger deeper will also move the bowtie if you are clipping (may be the ring finger im not 100% sure on this but I’m sure somebody will chime in).
Also for me when drilling asym. balls I usually keep the MB closer to the thumb then in stronger positions. This is mostly personal pref. but i prefer the reaction I get.
I would not worry about changing your release if you can repeat the release over and over.
Also I don’t know why people say low track players (not spinners) are limited on drilling a ball, with a low track you can do some exotic layouts, some end up looking like they were drilled for a lefty but they still work very well.
Icewall: I have no issue covering boards either, but again that is mostly due to ball choice.
--------------------
Zoltan!
Edited on 3/3/2010 10:31 AM
Post by: J_w73 on March 03, 2010, 09:35:47 AM
quote:quote:quote:
I have a moderately high track, and have lots of problems when there isn't much head oil (although am learning to loft).
--------------------
Reporting from England
What problems do you see? I'm a high tracker and have been puzzled about the reaction I see on my stuff.. Doesn't seem to be like others around me..
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
The biggest issue I have is with rollout. Along with my large diameter track, which makes the ball roll sooner, I also get the ball down really early, so if there's little or no head oil up front, the ball can run out of energy and/or grab really early on the lane giving me a tough reaction (if the pace is off just a little the ball dives through the beak)
--------------------
Reporting from England
ok.. I was beginning to think I just didn't know how to hook the ball anymore.. I have decent revs but I see all these guys around me and their ball moving way more.. My ball just seems to be DOA at the pins. My stronger stuff doesn't hook more it hooks less.. Seems the weaker I go the more hook and backend I am getting..
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: LaneHammer20 on March 03, 2010, 10:31:20 AM
My equipment moves, especially when I tuck my pinky and increase tilt. But when I play fingers spread apart I get a smooth move off the ball, it works and i like it but it has alot of disadvantages.
I just hate the nights most when I am the only person regardless of what I am throwing with absolutly no ball reaction, maybe 2-3 boards, while everyone else from the wussy puss knucklers (whatever Mo calls them) to the guys turning there hand completely over on every shot.
Dry lanes or quickly dimishing head oil hurts me, and 90% of the time sneaks up on me without noticing it quick enough casuing some bas things to happen before noticing ruining a game and seriers for that matter. Has happened alot lately in the last game shooting some scores I will not mention and ruining a good set.
--------------------
What is sandbagging???
Post by: icewall on March 03, 2010, 08:36:58 PM
quote:
Also I don’t know why people say low track players (not spinners) are limited on drilling a ball, with a low track you can do some exotic layouts, some end up looking like they were drilled for a lefty but they still work very well.
Icewall: I have no issue covering boards either, but again that is mostly due to ball choice.
--------------------
Zoltan!
Edited on 3/3/2010 10:31 AM
alright lets get some things straight.
#1 I did not say that. I said high track players are limited to drillings.
#2 everything you stated is good for high track players such as yourself. theres nothing wrong with that... just saying it helps to state something like "being a high track player I prefer 'weak' MB positions"
#3 tilt is not rotation
BTW im not attacking you or anything. I just like to make sure others reading it dont get confused or read mis-information.
theres nothing wrong with tracking high. it just can make it very difficult to find a weak enough ball / a ball to store enough energy. I know this as I used to track high and watch guys with low rev rates hooking 10 more boards then me barely tapping the pocket and carrying the world.
--------------------
tweener
300 revs
16 mph
17 degrees of tilt
when you're feeling blue,
just say to yourself "what would BallBaggins do?"
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2010, 12:05:06 AM
quote:
J-w. Me and you are literally floating in the same boat.
My equipment moves, especially when I tuck my pinky and increase tilt. But when I play fingers spread apart I get a smooth move off the ball, it works and i like it but it has alot of disadvantages.
I just hate the nights most when I am the only person regardless of what I am throwing with absolutly no ball reaction, maybe 2-3 boards, while everyone else from the wussy puss knucklers (whatever Mo calls them) to the guys turning there hand completely over on every shot.
Dry lanes or quickly dimishing head oil hurts me, and 90% of the time sneaks up on me without noticing it quick enough casuing some bas things to happen before noticing ruining a game and seriers for that matter. Has happened alot lately in the last game shooting some scores I will not mention and ruining a good set.
--------------------
What is sandbagging???
How do you have most of your equipment drilled??? Long Pin to PAP?? .. pin over fingers or close to VAL??
that is what seems to work for me.. Also.. do most High Trackers have more of a skid flip style ??? That is what I have always played caused it seems to guarantee that I can get the ball down the lane and still have back end..
Just this year tried to get an earlier smoother roll but I don't know if it is working out that well..
I seemed to have lost that flip and backend when I need it..
but yeah.. recently all my strong stuff just moves like 3 boards.. doesn't finish and hits weak..
but I also have problems with my strong stuff not moving in oil either.. so i don't know what the deal is there..
lately been using a solid creature, neptune, green gargoyle, slate blue gargoyle... while everyone else is using VG's , mutant cells, and other strong balls..
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: x1a4 on March 04, 2010, 06:16:07 AM
quote:quote:
Also I don’t know why people say low track players (not spinners) are limited on drilling a ball, with a low track you can do some exotic layouts, some end up looking like they were drilled for a lefty but they still work very well.
Icewall: I have no issue covering boards either, but again that is mostly due to ball choice.
--------------------
Zoltan!
Edited on 3/3/2010 10:31 AM
alright lets get some things straight.
#1 I did not say that. I said high track players are limited to drillings.
#2 everything you stated is good for high track players such as yourself. theres nothing wrong with that... just saying it helps to state something like "being a high track player I prefer 'weak' MB positions"
#3 tilt is not rotation
BTW im not attacking you or anything. I just like to make sure others reading it dont get confused or read mis-information.
theres nothing wrong with tracking high. it just can make it very difficult to find a weak enough ball / a ball to store enough energy. I know this as I used to track high and watch guys with low rev rates hooking 10 more boards then me barely tapping the pocket and carrying the world.
--------------------
tweener
300 revs
16 mph
17 degrees of tilt
when you're feeling blue,
just say to yourself "what would BallBaggins do?"
#1 - i believe somebody else was saying low track players were limited on drilling.
#2 - i was just trying to chime in and let others know what has worked for me in the past
#3 - i get merds wixed up sometimes =P
I did not mean my post to come off as an attack either.
One thing that has helped me when trying to get a desirable reaction is drilling weak balls stronger and stronger balls weaker... Also playing with the cover helps me alot as well. I had a ball at 4000 grit I did not like at all. I took it down to 1000 and polished it and it was money. I also like to throw alot of pearl or hybrid pieces.
Have you ever tried tucking your pinky in when you throw the ball? That changes my ball motion (not a huge change).
--------------------
Zoltan!
Post by: LaneHammer20 on March 04, 2010, 07:02:14 AM
I have not tried a layout with the pin close to the VAL, but have been wanting to try it. My style can get semi-flippy at times on certain conditions, but typically I have a pronounced midlane roll while having a good backend, nothing crazy.
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What is sandbagging???
Post by: J_w73 on March 04, 2010, 08:50:41 AM
quote:
I have been getting my best reactions lately with drilling equipment on the weaker side. 5.5 from PAP above fingers has been very good to as of late.It gets me down the lane good and provides a very nice backend reaction. Pin down balls roll over my thumb and fingers and are just to smooth.
I have not tried a layout with the pin close to the VAL, but have been wanting to try it. My style can get semi-flippy at times on certain conditions, but typically I have a pronounced midlane roll while having a good backend, nothing crazy.
That is how I had pretty much all my equipment laid out.. 5.5 pin to pap pin over bridge, mb at 60 deg (inch right of thumb or so)..
The higher you go toward the VAL with a given PAP the more angular and quicker turn the ball will have.. some say more backend.. some say less.. I think that depends on what the lanes give you up front..
recently I have done some different drillings.. tried a rico on a mammoth.. like it but the cover is just too strong for anything but a flood.. I have a creature that has the Pin at center grip with no weight hole.. I thought this ball would clip the fingers or thumb but it doesn't and it actually one of my go to balls lately..have a double thumb layout on a sidewinder as well.. that ball is pretty good on a wide variety of conditions..
--------------------
What is sandbagging???
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: x1a4 on March 04, 2010, 09:09:25 AM
Dimension 5 x 3
Rapid Fire Pearl 6" pin to pap cg in palm
Temper 2 1/2" pin to PAP, MB in track. (very nice control piece, its my goto ball when my others fail).
I also had alot of success with my Total NV drilled with the "Tommy Jones Trick Layout" until the ball died. I tried oil extraction and full resurface but it was never the same.
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Zoltan!
Post by: batbowler on March 04, 2010, 09:57:47 AM
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will "Get MOTIVated, be a MoRich Lane Master with a Big B and not turn from it.
Bruce Campbell
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