BallReviews

General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: storm making it rain on March 15, 2010, 07:17:19 AM

Title: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: storm making it rain on March 15, 2010, 07:17:19 AM
In recent posts people were upset about how much they pay for USBC sanctioning.  Most of the complaints were because of where the money goes, the lack of awards, etc.

Now my question to all of you that wish to respond is this...

What do you personally want from USBC for the $10 you pay for national sanctioning fees?

I would just like honest opinions to an honest question..

Thanks in advance!!
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: On Further Review on March 15, 2010, 05:41:36 PM
$10 for national and perhaps $10 more for local association isn't really that big an amount, but on the other hand, I don't feel that USBC does much for me at all because I'm not a high-average bowler and am not likely to win awards or benefit from too much that USBC does.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 15, 2010, 06:03:48 PM
Not get rid of awards. Especially ones that are rarely given.(7-10 split, all spare game ect.)



--------------------
" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: charlest on March 15, 2010, 06:04:04 PM
If it's $10, why does $20 leave my wallet?

And what does the State and local do that the National does not?

I'd bet 80% of more goes for "ADMINISTRATIVE" (Read: Salaries) fees.

What do I want them to do?
What they did in 1980 for $5.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Rileybowler on March 15, 2010, 06:37:07 PM
From what I understand and I could be wrong USBC monies were used as prize fund for pro women tournament, if so I am against that
--------------------
Carl
Bless the LORD o my soul and all that is within me bless his holy name
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: storm making it rain on March 15, 2010, 07:29:11 PM
quote:
If it's $10, why does $20 leave my wallet?


$20 leaves your wallet to pay national and local/state, $10 of that goes to national.  my local office charges $8, and i guess im fortunate because they have enhanced their awards.


 
quote:
What do I want them to do?
What they did in 1980 for $5


and in 1980 a gallon of gas cost about a dollar

Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 15, 2010, 08:17:36 PM
quote:
If only ball honks like Charlest would donate their time for FREE to USBC and share with them his extensive ball core and ball shell studies and knowledge, sanctioning fees would go down as they wouldn't have to have employees studying ball dynamics, different oil patterns, etc.


On the other hand, maybe if equipment morons like yourself took a little time to understand the technology of the game, sanctioning fees would go down as they wouldn't have to have as many employees studying ball dynamics, different oil patterns, etc.

That intellectual vacuum you create generates a lot of USBC payroll.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: charlest on March 15, 2010, 08:34:21 PM
quote:
quote:
If it''s $10, why does $20 leave my wallet?


$20 leaves your wallet to pay national and local/state, $10 of that goes to national.  my local office charges $8, and i guess im fortunate because they have enhanced their awards.


 
quote:
What do I want them to do?
What they did in 1980 for $5


and in 1980 a gallon of gas cost about a dollar



So their "servcies"went up 4x, while gas went up 2.5x.
And what about their services currently offered by the USBC warrants price increases by the rate of inflation?
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Edited on 3/15/2010 8:55 PM
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Tex on March 15, 2010, 09:59:06 PM
If the USBC had the number of members that existed 20 years ago,the dues might be lower. I agree with those who say $18 or $20 a year is nothing and I am surprised it is not higher and probably should be. If you think about the number of rings and other awards that were given out back in what we might refer to as the old days and use a per bowler ratio, then compare that to recent years it would have to be a shocking difference.I recall talking with directors from different associations and them telling stories of how the old timers said they never honored a single 300 in the past, that they could always find something wrong to deny the awards. Now we give them away like candy and guys sell and buy them on ebay. The rules changed, conditions got easier, balls got stronger and scores got higher. We have lost bowlers by the millions and yet expect the same service on a small amount of money. Ever had kids in other sports like mayby hockey, I am told that can run in the thousands a year just to be in a league. My kid was into showing cattle at events like the State Fair of Texas and Ft.Worth livestock show, just two of these animals ran as much as $500 a month just to feed and forget about the registration fees, entry fees and dues.

Bottom line is bowling is cheap. USBC allows us to maintain an average database and there are more lower average awards given these days than any rings in my league and probably 25% of my league are current or former PBA members. Only thing I ask of the local association and USBC is be honest about where the money is spent and why. Our association is about to ask for and increase from $8 to figure the $10. If they can not explain why and where it will be used I might vote no, but give me a honest answer and they have my approval. I used to be on the board so know some of the areas money was spent and some were questionable at one time. Part of those we eliminated just after the USBC was formed. Now they can not even afford to give the volunteers a meal twice a year and those directors at least deserve that much.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 16, 2010, 09:34:28 AM
quote:
I tried to keep you out of it but feel free to volunteer your totally anecdotal evidence regarding ball cleaners and the picture will paint itself.


CRD/LB4M: Charlest asked valid questions about USBC fees. Tex provided a lot of follow-up insight here, but still, many bowlers don't see much concrete value. Maybe if there was more open discussion on what the USBC should be to most bowlers, we'd have a better product.

My so called "anecdotal evidence regarding ball cleaners" has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Neither does you cheap shot at charlest. That bottle of beer charlest had last night probably killed more bowling knowledge brain cells than you've ever possessed. The man's insights and contributions are a gift to this board, even if you're incapable of getting any benefit.

Back to the topic, you seem to feel the USBC makes life better for you as a bowler. Good. So why don't you share some of those insights?
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Pinbuster on March 16, 2010, 10:00:01 AM
The State/Local dues help run state and local association tournaments both youth and adult. Our association also provides scholarship money to the local university for bowlers.  

Plus they certify lanes for compliance to the rules both in physical dimension of the lanes and lane conditions.

The National organization runs the National tournament, gives awards, runs team USA, bonding, maintains the rule books, makes ruling, produces equipment specs, plus I''m sure many other things we don''t think of.

My biggest issue with the USBC are lane conditions that are generally too easy. But that is in compliance with the wishes of the vast majority of their membership. Only a small percentage of bowlers really want tougher conditions.

I am more than willing to give the governing body the money to perform these functions.

In most cases it is one weeks dues in one league. Most of the complainers waste much more money in 50/50''s, beer, lottery tickets, booze, and bowling equipment they do not need.

Edited on 3/16/2010 10:06 AM
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: The Stroke on March 16, 2010, 10:02:57 AM
This thread just shows how cheap bowlers are.  $20 for your national AND local dues is nothing.  It is less than a $1 per week for a normal 32-36 week league.  How many of you spend more than that a night on brackets, pots, and/or alcohol?
--------------------
Toodles

Edited on 3/16/2010 10:03 AM
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: storm making it rain on March 16, 2010, 10:12:27 AM
stroke, this is exactly what i was getting at. from recent threads people were complaining about what "national" is doing with "their" sanctioning money.

 
quote:
Posted: 3/16/2010 10:02 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This thread just shows how cheap bowlers are. $20 for your national AND local dues is nothing. It is less than a $1 per week for a normal 32-36 week league. How many of you spend more than that a night on brackets, pots, and/or alcohol?
 


 
quote:
The State/Local dues help run state and local association tournaments both youth and adult. Our association also provides scholarship money to the local university for bowlers.

Plus they certify lanes for compliance to the rules both in physical dimension of the lanes and lane conditions.

The National organization runs the National tournament, gives awards, runs team USA, bonding, maintains the rule books, makes ruling, produces equipment specs, plus I''m sure many other things we don''t think of.

My biggest issue with the USBC are lane conditions that are generally too easy. But that is in compliance with the wishes of the vast majority of their membership. Only a small percentage of bowlers really want tougher conditions.

I am more than willing to give the governing body the money to perform these functions.

In most cases it is one weeks dues in one league. Most of the complainers waste much more money in 50/50''s, beer, lottery tickets, booze, and bowling equipment they do not need.

 


plus 1
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: kens101 on March 16, 2010, 10:13:17 AM
I just want my 299 ring......
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Boos on March 16, 2010, 11:20:36 AM
I think $20.00 is cheap. I do not think the Local assn should get anything. Where I live We get NOTHING. What I think the problem is that leagues are now forming that are unsanctioned. That hurts the way USBC can help and it also does not tell Us how many leagues are really bowling because some are unsanctioned. Everything should be sanctioned.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: someguyintucson on March 16, 2010, 11:49:43 AM
I paid $18 this year for my USBC membership. $10 for national, $7 for local and $1 for state. I also upgraded to sport for an additional $15 and I bowl in one regular scratch league and one PBAX doubles league.

In comparison, the last time that I went to the movies I paid $9.75 for my ticket, $5.50 for a large popcorn and $4.75 for a soda.

Why is everyone so worried about $20?

Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: 9andaWiggle on March 16, 2010, 03:25:21 PM
Nice username! I likes a smooth runway!

--------------------
9~

Internet Tough Guy

Cyberspace Sheep Lover






Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 16, 2010, 03:38:11 PM
quote:
Man people really do not understand economics do they? Nobody is saying 20$ is a lot of money. They are saying that what they get for that 20$ investment is not worth 20$.  


Actually, acvar gets it. It's simply a question of what you get for your money. For many bowlers, the perception is that it's not alot. I have a box full of USBC watches and plaques I could do without. Outside of the bumper bowling trinkets I collect, what value does the USBC add to my on-going league bowling experience?  

quote:
If after all these years you don't know what you get for your sanctioning, there's even less hope for you than I thought, Steven.


CRD/LM4M: I didn't ask for the above. I asked the following:

 "you seem to feel the USBC makes life better for you as a bowler. Good. So why don't you share some of those insights?"

Again, you proved reading is a skill you still haven't mastered. The question was for your insights. It's a simple question, and I even asked real nice. Want to give it another try?
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 16, 2010, 04:29:18 PM
acvar: Nice response. I couldn't have said it any better.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Pinbuster on March 16, 2010, 05:39:45 PM
quote:
Never seen a single USBC inspection of the balls at my sanctioned leagues. So how is an unenforced set of rules of value to me exactly?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You not gonna take Steven's word on ball cleaners and actually test them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 


Every ball manufactured has to have been approved by the USBC to follow it's specifications. So by defacto the USBC has inspected the balls in your league.

You don't get a ball with 14 ounces of side weight, a ball that is 2 inches oversized.

Would you be ok with the USBC if they did away with all awards and simply became a governing body and conduct championships? What if that could be done for $10 a year? Would that be you monies worth?

Every non-sanctioned leagues rides on the coat tails of people who have sanctioned. They are not really bowlers but simply people who participate in a game that is being defined by others. They use USBC rules to keep score, settle disputes, to define their league rules.

Without a governing body bowling will spiral into chaos.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: J_w73 on March 16, 2010, 07:17:58 PM
quote:
I just want my 299 ring......


I agree.. I was 3 for 3 on my first three 300's .. didn't get a 299 or 298 until they got rid of that ring...
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Rileybowler on March 16, 2010, 08:38:23 PM
quote:
quote:
Never seen a single USBC inspection of the balls at my sanctioned leagues. So how is an unenforced set of rules of value to me exactly?


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You not gonna take Steven's word on ball cleaners and actually test them?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 


Every ball manufactured has to have been approved by the USBC to follow it's specifications. So by defacto the USBC has inspected the balls in your league.

You don't get a ball with 14 ounces of side weight, a ball that is 2 inches oversized.

Would you be ok with the USBC if they did away with all awards and simply became a governing body and conduct championships? What if that could be done for $10 a year? Would that be you monies worth?

Every non-sanctioned leagues rides on the coat tails of people who have sanctioned. They are not really bowlers but simply people who participate in a game that is being defined by others. They use USBC rules to keep score, settle disputes, to define their league rules.

Without a governing body bowling will spiral into chaos.

________________________________________________________________________
You aren't saying that a USBC represenative is at all of the factories that produce bowling balls and physically inspect them are you? I hope not because it doesn't happen
--------------------
Carl
Bless the LORD o my soul and all that is within me bless his holy name
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Rileybowler on March 16, 2010, 08:41:43 PM
quote:
quote:
You gonna bond my leagues?

The house that I bowl in takes care of the money in my leagues and I trust them, the people I interact with on a daily basis a hell of a lot more then some organization full of people I never met.

quote:
You gonna set ball and equipment specs?

Never seen a single USBC inspection of the balls at my sanctioned leagues.  So how is an unenforced set of rules of value to me exactly?

quote:
You not gonna take Steven's word on ball cleaners and actually test them?

Again never seen a USBC oficial test a single bottle of cleaner anywhere I have bowled.

quote:
You gonna provide awards for scores?

Nope, and more and more neither is the USBC.

quote:
The list goes on and on.

Please don't give me the rest of the list of things that the USBC really isn't doing.

quote:
STFU with that stupid sh$t!

Ah yes the juvenile attack that always appears in your responses.  Good to see some things never change.

_____________________________________________________________________
+1
--------------------
Carl
Bless the LORD o my soul and all that is within me bless his holy name
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 17, 2010, 10:51:20 AM
quote:
All of you no talent hacks that bowl just to get a "ring" are losers, period.  


BeefCake: LOL. I usually don''t fall on the side of agreeing with you, but you in a crude way you have a point.

If CRD/LB4M''s view is true that one of the main values of the USBC is to be a trinket vendor, then that''s proof-positive that there is a real reason to question the size of dues.

I wouldn''t argue that the USBC doesn''t have some value as a governing body (although they do a piss poor job at it), but nobody has provided a reasonable case that they even deserve the $20 we''re required to kick in. I''d gladly pay $50 if they''d buck up and perform a little more than a ceremonial role.

Edited on 3/17/2010 10:51 AM
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: storm making it rain on March 17, 2010, 11:02:56 AM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of you no talent hacks that bowl just to get a "ring" are losers, period.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BeefCake: LOL. I usually don''t fall on the side of agreeing with you, but you in a crude way you have a point.

If CRD/LB4M''s view is true that one of the main values of the USBC is to be a trinket vendor, then that''s proof-positive that there is a real reason to question the size of dues.

I wouldn''t argue that the USBC doesn''t have some value as a governing body (although they do a piss poor job at it), but nobody has provided a reasonable case that they even deserve the $20 we''re required to kick in. I''d gladly pay $50 if they''d buck up and perform a little more than a ceremonial role.
 


once again the topic is national dues not total sanction.  so we are paying national $10.00 not $20


i like some of the reponses coming in, as for "some" of you if you plan on bashing please do not post. im looking for constructive criticism here.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: boomtown24 on March 17, 2010, 03:43:55 PM
Your USBC sanction fee comes with quite a few benefits.  You can get a reduced rate for car rentals, hotels, and meals.  These alone will save you more than the $10 sanction fee.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 17, 2010, 06:01:32 PM
quote:
First, azzhole, I have never said that is their main purpose. Read the posts again. To me that is very minor. The big thing is they bond league prize funds. Call it 1. 1A is providing rules and equipment specs.  


CRD/LB4M I said prize trinkets were one of the main values you listed. I never said the it was the only. Again, reading comprehension is a skill. Practice it.

As far as bonding league prize funds, if you don't trust the house you bowl in, find someplace else. If the house or the league is that sleaze bag to need bonding, it's the wrong place to be.

The rules and equipment specs are not recreated from scratch every year. Glaciers melt faster than the USBC updates their 'specs'. If they're spending appreciable money in these areas, you're not getting your monies worth.

Again, I'd be happy to provide $50 for lane specs that are enforceable and provide greater integrity to the game. I'd much rather USBC effort be spent in bowling governance than reduced rates for car rentals, hotels, and meals that I already get through AAA and other awards programs.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: storm making it rain on March 17, 2010, 06:16:43 PM
quote:
As far as bonding league prize funds, if you don't trust the house you bowl in, find someplace else. If the house or the league is that sleaze bag to need bonding, it's the wrong place to be


steven

not all leagues hold their money at the center.  we offer "prize fund" accounts to all of our leagues as a service to them.  out of all of our leagues (more than 20) only 6 use this service.

that being said, 2 of our higher prize fund leagues are not held with us.  (now keep in mind that the league treasurer is 80+ years old). what if he gets mugged leaving the bank with all that money?
(now we dont live in a high crime area but its a valid question)




 
quote:
Again, reading comprehension is a skill. Practice it.


 
quote:
i like some of the reponses coming in, as for "some" of you if you plan on bashing please do not post. im looking for constructive criticism here.


steven,

you should take your own advice and "comprehend" part of my last post (2nd quote) and keep your personal vendetta's against whoever you think this guy is.

thank you and have a nice day  
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: trash heap on March 17, 2010, 08:10:21 PM
Mainzer where are you? I think we need the BR Inquisition??? Someone is using two names.
--------------------
Always the last one to POST!
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: batbowler on March 17, 2010, 10:25:26 PM
As far as the USBC goes on lane inspection, once you're lanes are inspected and certified you don't have to have them reinspected until you make any changes to your lanes. Lane inspections are also a thing of the past!
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will "Get MOTIVated, be a MoRich Lane Master with a Big B and not turn from it.
Bruce Campbell
USBC Bronze Certified Coach
IBPSIA Certified Technician
Originator of the -35deg x 25 leverage drilling!
http://www.motivbowling.com/products/2/
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: storm making it rain on March 17, 2010, 10:56:04 PM
quote:
As far as the USBC goes on lane inspection, once you're lanes are inspected and certified you don't have to have them reinspected until you make any changes to your lanes. Lane inspections are also a thing of the past!


not entirely true bat.

the main inspection during the end of summer usually, is more for lanes, machines, pin spots, etc.  they do tape of course but for the most part the "certification" is to make sure your lane beds are in accordance.

and once again its a situation of your region, but our lanes do get spot inspections for lane tapes by our local association.  not often but it happens 2-3 times per year.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: J_w73 on March 18, 2010, 12:23:12 AM
quote:
So?  I lifted it off Cgsucks' sig.  You really are grasping at straws, aren't you?  

Tell you what, die grinder.  Start a thread saying you believe different colors hook more than others.  See how many agree with you.

Now quit hijacking threads, die grinder.  You haven't offered one original thought to the subject of the post.  Beat it!


Not sure who is on what side of this fight but different colored pigments DO effect how a ball hooks..

check out this thread.. not sure if it is all entirely accurate but it seems to have some very good and valid information

http://www.bowlingballexchange.com/showthread.php?t=34294
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 4, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience 185
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: trash heap on March 18, 2010, 04:48:12 PM
quote:
I stand corrected.


Was that hard for you to type
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 18, 2010, 05:54:42 PM
quote:
you should take your own advice and "comprehend" part of my last post (2nd quote) and keep your personal vendetta's against whoever you think this guy is.  


bowler25: Thanks for the information on prize funds. In the many leagues at many houses I've bowled in over the years, I've never seen the arrangement you described, but clearly it exists.

You've talked about league bonding and other financial rewards (hotel, car rental, meals) where the USBC can provide value. That's all well and good. But if that's what the USBC does best, we're in serious trouble. Perform your mission statement well before branching into less significant and/or unrelated areas.

Again, I want the USBC to do one thing and do it well -- bring effective governance to league bowling for credibility as a sport. That's where the most value can be achieved. The rest is a smoke screen.  

As far as your 'second' quote, it's all part of the BR experience, so get used to it. This is no place for the thin skinned and timid.  

Thank YOU and have a nice day.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Rileybowler on March 18, 2010, 06:51:59 PM
quote:
quote:
you should take your own advice and "comprehend" part of my last post (2nd quote) and keep your personal vendetta''s against whoever you think this guy is.  


bowler25: Thanks for the information on prize funds. In the many leagues at many houses I''ve bowled in over the years, I''ve never seen the arrangement you described, but clearly it exists.

You''ve talked about league bonding and other financial rewards (hotel, car rental, meals) where the USBC can provide value. That''s all well and good. But if that''s what the USBC does best, we''re in serious trouble. Perform your mission statement well before branching into less significant and/or unrelated areas.

Again, I want the USBC to do one thing and do it well -- bring effective governance to league bowling for credibility as a sport. That''s where the most value can be achieved. The rest is a smoke screen.  

As far as your ''second'' quote, it''s all part of the BR experience, so get used to it. This is no place for the thin skinned and timid.  

Thank YOU and have a nice day.

_________________________________________________________
Well stated and this should be what every sanctioned bowler desires from the USBC
--------------------
Carl
Bless the LORD o my soul and all that is within me bless his holy name

Edited on 3/18/2010 9:05 PM
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: txbowler on March 18, 2010, 07:34:24 PM
If you are a mid average league bowler who never plans on bowling any tournament of any kind, your dues probably does not provide you anything you can see or measure.

You may or may not win any awards and your league funds hopefully are safe.

But if the day comes when your league secretary decided to go live in Mexico and took $30,000 of your league funds with him/her.  You'll be thankful.

Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 19, 2010, 10:30:30 AM
quote:
Well stated and this should be what every sanctioned bowler desires from the USBC


Thanks Riley. What we need to see from our dues is something concrete that makes a difference. I hope there are a lot of others like you who see this.

 
quote:
isnt this the "The Truth".... your skin is as thick as your head....oh, hey steven, carry on with your shenanigans..


CGsSuK: Hey, settle down. You should be honored that CRD/LM4M used your pre-school sig line for a weak attempt at a response. BTW, what has the USBC done for you lately?
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: wooddaddy on March 19, 2010, 10:42:25 AM
substitute "taxes" for "dues" and "government" for "usbc" and you'd have a more interesting thread
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 19, 2010, 09:27:31 PM
quote:
Wow, what a tag team duo, Stevie and The Fraud. Two of the biggest non-respect earning posters on here. One thinks he knows everything but when proved wrong by countless others, he goes turtle and bails on the thread. The other is a glorified bench hand who NEVER contributes anything bowling knowledge-wise to a post, just stalks me as Stevens imaginary friend. Pathetic.


Wow. More noise from a loser who had to change his name from CRD to letsbow4money because of BR banishment. I've never been proved wrong by the troll contingent, and never bailed on a thread that wasn't already troll infested. Prove otherwise. Of course, you can't.

"The Truth" stands on his own. There is no tag team, other than the guy has you pegged. He's drawn to you like flies on crap, only I'm guessing he doesn't enjoy it. If more poster like "The Truth" would challenge your moronic presence, you'd fade away like a bad cold. Maybe with time.

BTW, you never explained why you have to bowl in houses where you can't trust the management to ethically manage league fee money. Are your only real choices certified fleabag establishments?
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Atochabsh on March 20, 2010, 06:45:26 AM
Quote
And what does the State and local do that the National does not?[/quote[

I'm not going to speak to state because I'd like to see an audit of that myself.

But local takes care of all the lane and center certification themselves.  USBC pays absolutely nothing for lane and center certification. Local has to buy the equipment at a huge cost from USBC in order to do this job and provide the workers.  Local also sponsers all your city tournaments.  USBC central office contributes NOTHING to your local city tournaments.  Not workers, not prize fund, not flyers, not raffle prizes, not data entry, not prize distribution.  Local also distributes USBC achievement awards.  Whether this is by US mail or carrier by local directors.  Local pays for that (up until a couple years ago, our US mailing costs per year was over $5000).  Local also provides all your average verification letters.  Though some of that is spreading out to bowl.com if you can use the site.  Local is supposed to track all your sandbaggers and hopefully rerate them as needed.   Local also provides your yearly book averages (USBC pays nothing for that) and the processing it takes to create the average book (no USBC kickback for creating the average book or data base).  It costs us about $2000/yr to create an Official Average Book.  If your association is big enough, then you have an office location and rent, plus staff and wages.  

Erin
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Atochabsh on March 20, 2010, 06:50:19 AM
quote:
not all leagues hold their money at the center. we offer "prize fund" accounts to all of our leagues as a service to them. out of all of our leagues (more than 20) only 6 use this service.


This is another thing that local associations offer.  We too  offer banking through us.  We used to gain a minimal interest that we put into a yearly scholarship fund.  But of course now banks don't really give interest for savings accounts now a days.  But we provide banking through a major mega bank that is usable all over the city/country.  Out of 200 leagues about 25 use this.  But we have to balance 25 additional accounts monthly and send out statements to the league president and league treasurer.  That's labor and mailing costs that local does.  

Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Atochabsh on March 20, 2010, 06:54:08 AM
quote:
Our association is about to ask for and increase from $8 to figure the $10. If they can not explain why and where it will be used I might vote no, but give me a honest answer and they have my approval.


How long has it been at that rate?  That's really important!  

We have not raised local dues in over 5 years.  But the economy has gone up, the price of a US stamp has gone up, office rent has gone up, insurance has gone up, taxes has gone up and minimal wages have gone up (well not in our case).  Most associations have to pay for internet service, phone service, fax service, electric, utilities, trash pick up.  All that has gone up.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Atochabsh on March 20, 2010, 06:58:00 AM
quote:
As far as the USBC goes on lane inspection, once you're lanes are inspected and certified you don't have to have them reinspected until you make any changes to your lanes.


This is not true!!

USBC centers must be certified yearly.  There are additional inspections due if you replace your lanes, or a new center is opened.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: MI 2 AZ on March 20, 2010, 08:44:31 AM
Atochabsh, thanks for that info on what locals do.

It seems we get more bang for the buck from Local than we do from National, although we did gain a nice new building in a warmer state now, and a newer website that is easier to use.


--------------------

_________________________________________

New to BR? - Please check this:  BR FAQ (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Tex on March 20, 2010, 10:15:51 AM
There seems to be a lot of back and forth on this. Amazing to me that people get this worked up over 18 to 20 dollars. I was a local association director for many years and only opted out due to other endeavors that were taking too much of my time.

I operate a tournament promotions company as one of my side jobs and I can tell you if you aren't USBC sanction you won't bowl in my events and without a certified average you would be scratch. That said, tournaments only affect a very small part of those who bowl. Now before someone says tournaments are mostly for high average bowlers I would guess that less than 40% of our bowlers have a 200 average and maybe 20% enter in our optional scratch side events. There has to be some way of documenting averages even though we all know not every average is a true representation of a bowlers capabilities.

On the bonding. I know way too many centers that have misappropriated a leagues funds. I would believe that none of these began the year believing that at the end they would be unable to pay the leagues money or awards back, but due to running short of money that is what happened. On the other side are centers like ours that no longer offer that option, just too dangerous. We had one of the better centers in our area (not our center) last year had one of the better high average leagues have their entire prize fund stolen by the league secretaries boyfriend. Yep, he got in and emptied the account. After filing for the bonding the bowlers eventually got paid, the president and secretary were suspended and after almost a year so was the boyfriend. Point is when dealing with money, it happens and way too often. USBC is able to give us the option of at least getting the bowlers their money and then go after the theives. I think this league was 20K or more in prize funds or so the rumors, but how many $10 fees did it take to cover that league or how much was the insurance to cover all of our leagues if this happened.

Inspection of the lanes occur once a year and is performed by the local association, that is where part of your local fees go. They also inspect for honor scores though not as often as in the past. In too many associations they notify the centers that the inspection will be given on a given day and time, a violation of rules, but that is what happens. The inspectors at least get mileage for the travel or used to anyway and there are materials involved. All of our locals also provide trinkets for some awards that national does not provide. Ours has an office and secretary, so there are expenses and salaries envolved. How many salaries are envolved at the national office in Arington and what is the rent on that facility. Yes the national sets the rules with the help of the local assocations that use their money to travel to the convention, that convention is also paid for by national. SO, the bowlers don't get a dime of any of that money so why should they have to pay for it. Those are parts of doing business and this business is bowling. It is a business for all of the centers and is for  USBC and really the local too. You can not support the business without money and that money comes from dues. They are a membership organization and thus are totally dependent on our support in the form of dues. Yea they have gone out and tried to bring in extra money with advertising but how much would you pay for an add in our membership magazine or annual mailing of your card.

Most of the awards don't mean alot to me anymore I have been in this too long. I just want another 300 ring and to finally get an  800. At least USBC is there if and when those finally happen or I hope they will be.

On non-sanctioned leagues and tournaments. What are you going to do if a bowler is violating a rule? Oh, I know you are going to go to the USBC rule book and show them they can't do that. Hold on, you are not sanctioned. IF I want to walk down the lane to the pins and knock them down it is not outside the rules, is it? Foul lights don't count do they, I mean that is not written in your league rules is it. Can't use the rule book you decided not to use those rules when you went non-certified. Who you going to call to resolve your heated dispute over that guy sanding his ball. Not the local association. Open play is for non-sanction bowling and leagues/tournaments should always be sanctioned. Sorry,but if you want to bowl under our rules then pay the fees. I bet you will spend more than $10 or $20 dollars next week on beer,brackets,card games and maybe even your weekly league fees.

Nice soap box to get on. How many sports charge such a small fee and provide any part of what USBC does, though that is getting smaller. How many out there have joined the golfing organizations. What do you get?
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: cappy718 on March 20, 2010, 11:33:01 AM
I get this cool magazine from USBC infrequently...lol!  My lineage fees are only 7 bucks a night and 3 bucks goes to prize fund...to me that's cheap from what I see other houses charging.
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Steven on March 20, 2010, 12:12:51 PM
quote:
I rest my case. The delusional always think they are right. From core shape being more important than coverstock, to ball cleaners, to your pathetic attempts at being political, the list goes on and on where you post some preposterous position, the majority find you ridiculous, then you just disappear. Prove you don't!


LOL...Rest your case. You can't interpret the headlines in a newspaper, yet you're pretending to play Perry Mason? You are a piece of work.

You have no case, so there is nothing. You can't even get facts right in your diatribe above, much less come to any reality based conclusions. The bottom line is that you're an ignorant idiot when it comes to anything technically bowling related, so how are you in a position to judge someone who actually makes the effort to try different things out and solicit open discussion?

Anyway, back to the topic. I asked why you find it necessary to bowl in fleabag centers where you can't trust that league funds are managed properly. Don't you have legitimate choices in the Detroit area?
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: On Further Review on March 21, 2010, 08:14:00 PM
quote:
If you are a mid average league bowler who never plans on bowling any tournament of any kind, your dues probably does not provide you anything you can see or measure.

That's for sure.
--------------------
"Don't worry about voting to ram this bill down their throats. The stupid, idiotic American voters will forget by the time November comes around."
Title: Re: USBC Sanctioning Fee
Post by: Rileybowler on March 21, 2010, 08:21:27 PM
quote:
Wow, what a tag team duo, Stevie and The Fraud.  Two of the biggest non-respect earning posters on here.  One thinks he knows everything but when proved wrong by countless others, he goes turtle and bails on the thread.  The other is a glorified bench hand who NEVER contributes anything bowling knowledge-wise to a post, just stalks me as Stevens imaginary friend.  Pathetic.

___________________________________________________________________
Quite a post from none other thsn Mr know it all who probably one of the least respected posters on this site. Keep looking in the mirror and telling yourself how great you are and you will still keep on believing it
--------------------
Carl
Bless the LORD o my soul and all that is within me bless his holy name