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General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: Impending Doom on May 10, 2012, 12:30:54 PM

Title: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 10, 2012, 12:30:54 PM
DISCLAIMER: I love bowling. I love everything about it. This post is about the politics of bowling. Let us just get that out of the way.

Let me start off by saying that I have taken the last 3 years off of league and tournament bowling. Last league was in summer 2009, just before my daughter was born. I open bowled a little when I got time between being a student, husband, and daddy.

I started bowling in a Kegel league this last Tuesday. I walked in without a lick of practice for the last 2 months, and shoed up. First 3 weeks is the USBC pattern. Was super stoked about it. Knew I couldn't just fling it to the ditch and watch it scream back.

I averaged 140 for 4. I moved all over the lane, switched balls 4 times, and couldn't make a spare.

I was still stoked. The thought of working on things to actually get better excited me.

This is what the sport of bowling should be. Hence, the word sport. This got me thinking about how other sports view themselves.

How many pro golfers go and only golf at mini golf courses? How many pro baseball players play T Ball?

You never hear about someone playing sport golf, or sport baseball, or sport football. The activity implies that it's a sport. Only kiddie versions of the sport have another word attached to it. Pee Wee Football, T Ball, Mini Golf.

We need to make the hard decisions, and quit worrying about who leaves the game, and who goes out of business. It's a hole which we as a bowling community have dug for ourselves.

USBC is garbage. We need a governing body willing to take 3 steps back to take 1 step forward. If toughening up conditions will make bowlers leave, let them leave. Integrity doesn't have a member number attached to it.

People will go out of business. Bowlers will leave the sport. It happens. It's HAPPENING. If you don't evolve, your business will die.

Stop calling this little offshoot of bowling "sport bowling". Bowling is a sport.

If you don't want to play the sport, and just pretend you're good, let's call the THS "child's play". Also, go play T Ball at your local park district. Brag about that to your friends. Leave the real bowling to the bowlers. You know, people willing to work for it.

If you're not willing to work at bowling, leave. Bowling doesn't need you. It needs skilled athletes willing to showcase their skills that they've honed by hard work, practice and sacrifice. Everyone that just wants to play like they're good without actually putting in the effort to become good can GTFO for all I care.

I know this will somehow become a rant about equipment, but there are ways to regulate that. It will just take a couple of years to put into effect. Let's take care of one problem at a time.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 10, 2012, 12:32:22 PM
I like it!   ;D
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Polish_Hammer on May 10, 2012, 12:36:27 PM
Amen brother! I would be the first person to sign the petition for sport pattern only leagues
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Steven on May 10, 2012, 01:08:35 PM
A very nice Utopian vision, except for one small detail -- the USBC has no real power. When all is said and done, the house owners decide on the lane conditions they feel will generate the most revenue. And in most cases, it's a THS that promotes higher scores, repeat business, and subsequently more $$$ spend for alcohol and food.
 
You can do your part by participating in sport leagues and sport tournaments when they're available. Recruit others to do the same. High participation gets attention. Change will be difficult any other way. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: notclay on May 10, 2012, 01:13:56 PM
Bowling, in my opinion, needs both the easy conditions and the tougher ones. I prefer the challenge of the tougher ones, which is why I'm bowling one this summer.

However, the masses want to have fun and and their self esteem is closely tied to their scores.  They want to show off to the open play people. They want a ball for every possible condition, even though they will only bowl on the THS. They buy beer (or sodas), and contrary to some, they pay the bills so the center you bowl at can keep the doors open.

Sport bowling leagues are great, and for a relatively small portion of us provide a reality check as to our true skill levels. They force us to be accurate and repeat shots with consistency, or pay the price. However, if that were the only thing available, the same center that offers you the sport condition might close it's doors because their customer base went to the competition, who puts out the easier shot.

It has everything to do with human nature, and very little to do with bowling, and the fact that most people will choose the path of least resistance.

Not everyone is a bowling purist. Some do it for recreation, or giggles, or camaraderie with their friends. If you chase away the majority of bowlers (and their revenue) you will have no place to bowl your sport league before long.

On edit: While I was typing, Steven gave the same argument. He probably types faster than this guy...
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: qstick777 on May 10, 2012, 01:41:18 PM
First of all, it's called "league" bowling for a reason.

Secondly, all of these "elitist" bowlers that are upset about the easy "league" conditions shouldn't have any problem averaging enough to be eligible for the PRO tour.

I'm sure that the millions of "recreational" bowlers that bowl in one (or more) league per week wouldn't mind if the elitist bowlers would GTFO.

Thirdly, I'm tired of the comparisons to golf and other "sports" as if league bowling is some regulated sport at the professional level.  It's league bowling, just like church league softball.   I'm sure that the foursome getting together on the course on Sunday afternoon have some illusions of grandeur that they are in the same class as Tiger and Phil.  And I'm positive that the course they are playing is every bit as challenging as TPC Sawgrass!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: stopncrank on May 10, 2012, 01:46:27 PM
I agree that the center owners would never go for that, as quickly as the USBC would implement this regulation on patterns, the owners would pull away from USBC sanction. They are not gonna give up what little business they have these days, which is scraping the bottom already compared to just 10 years ago, and honestly as business owners in this economy can we really expect any less from them? Its easy to have this view that they should just go for the harder conditions,  when we arent the ones making our living running a center. So in regards to the easiest path, its not always the bolwer who chooses it, and sometimes you cant blame the owner, its not that easy.

I ask this-why are the majority of PBA, Sport, and other tougher pattern leagues only offered in the summer? At least in my area, they are. They should be offered year round imo.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 10, 2012, 02:15:34 PM
First of all, it's called "league" bowling for a reason.

Secondly, all of these "elitist" bowlers that are upset about the easy "league" conditions shouldn't have any problem averaging enough to be eligible for the PRO tour.

I'm sure that the millions of "recreational" bowlers that bowl in one (or more) league per week wouldn't mind if the elitist bowlers would GTFO.

Thirdly, I'm tired of the comparisons to golf and other "sports" as if league bowling is some regulated sport at the professional level.  It's league bowling, just like church league softball.   I'm sure that the foursome getting together on the course on Sunday afternoon have some illusions of grandeur that they are in the same class as Tiger and Phil.  And I'm positive that the course they are playing is every bit as challenging as TPC Sawgrass!

I like it!   ;D
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Monster Pike on May 10, 2012, 02:22:16 PM
First of all, it was just the 1st week of sport condition summer league where he said he averaged 140 for the night...  Just so you're clear.

2ndly, he was offering an opinion on bowling... If you want to argue his opinion fine... But the non mod forum is where the insults belong.  God knows I've had my share there, & fired back there as well, LoL!! So if you want people to take your "reply" with an ounce of credibility, you could edit it & maybe, just maybe we could decipher any logic in it if there's any in there... But as of now, TC, it's merely just "troll worthy" spewage...  ;)  ::)
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Urethane Game on May 10, 2012, 02:47:20 PM
@Qstick As far as I know, there are only a million or so USBC members at present.  I think it is fair to say there are no longer, sanctioned or unsanctioned, "millions of league bowlers."

I don't think it it elitist to want to compete at a higher level with a more level playing field than what is offered in most league environments.  That doesn't mean proponents of Sport Bowling are ready for the PBA or should have to bowl the PBA in order to be more challenged.

I don't have a problem with folks who want to shoot their big sets and have a good time but for players that want something else we shouldn't have to beg proprietors to offer something other than cake on the menu.

Sorry if that comes across to you as elitist.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: kidlost2000 on May 10, 2012, 02:55:28 PM
No matter what you think there is a few things that will not change.

1. Bowling centers are a business
2. USBC is a business.
3. A businesses goal is to make a profit.

Now yes bowling has taken a hit in integrity and it will not be changing anytime soon. "Save bowling" isn't a movement, it is a bowling manufactures next attempt at a slogan and sales pitch for what they do. (See #3 above)

So as nice as it is for many to have a change and bowl on something challenging, many many more do not feel the same. Golf has the nice advantage of different tee boxes to choose your difficulty level from. Bowling has typical league conditions and sport conditions. More people choose to bowl in their local leagues and tournaments on the easier conditions.

You as your own bowler can make the choice to increase the difficulty level on any condition by using a plastic ball, a pancake weight block reactive resin or urethane ball, or a rubber ball. All will make your house shot more difficult with out needing to do much at all. All of these bowling balls can be found online for $100 or less. Much less in most cases. You have a choice. We all do.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 10, 2012, 03:14:57 PM
I can understand both sides of the argument.  Some people want a challenge and some people feel making the game more difficult for all bowlers will drive away business. 

However, can there be a middle ground.  I realize center owners will put out the shot that pays the bills.  And they should.  But shouldn't the bowlers, even if it is a small minority, be given the opportunity to challenge themselves in what we all agree is a sport?  Not all cities have sport shot leagues.  Not all bowlers have the opportunity to travel for more challenging conditions.  Does this mean they can't challenge themselves? 

What if USBC offered different levels of sanctioning?  What if there was a level of sanctioning for fun leagues with a THS where everyone averages high and is happy?  It could have the following benefits:

What if there was another level of sanctioning where bowlers can bowl on a challenging shot and still have fun being beat up by the lanes? Benefits would include:

I understand making people happy.  But I too want to have good bowlers being recognized for bowling well without having to "go pro" to prove it.  Casual bowlers complain about paying for rings and high end awards when they know they won't get one.  And better bowlers complain when the 150 average bowler shoots 300 and gets a ring to flaunt.

I realize this is similar to the current Sport Bowling Program.  But I'm willing to bet this program isn't performing the way USBC expected.  Anyway, just a thought that came to mind while reading this thread, and as stated before, let's keep this productive.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 10, 2012, 03:20:24 PM
kidlost2000,

Again right on the money. Golf plays at different tee boxes and bowling is no different. Your point that if the elitists want a tougher challenge they could use equipment that will turn a THS into what they want is something that is fresh and spot on! They don't have the guts for that because they want the average league bowler's money far too much!!

Urethane Game, the author of this thread played the elitist angle whether he intended to or not and he's stuck with starting another thread on this tired tired topic!!

Monster Pike, I'm not taking one word of what I said back. It's the truth and how I feel exactly. If this guy has been around this site for any length of time he knew that this topic has been beaten to death and causes great uproar. I am not a troll unlike many on here but I'm sick of this topic and hope as always we will see the end of such idiotic attempts to keep it going. I'm sure most everyone else on here feels the same!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 10, 2012, 03:44:41 PM
Has this topic been brought up many times before, yes.  Does that mean it is no longer appropriate to bring up?  Should we just let USBC tell us what to do and not question it?  I personally don't think it is ever wrong to discuss what we do and do not like about a sport we are all passionate about.

But at the same time, I realize we have to DO something also.  We can talk and discuss and argue all we want.  But what do we get out of it?  Hopefully someone will have the opportunity to do something about it.  Instead of ignoring it, why can't we discuss it?  If you don't want to, then don't.  Those that visit the many threads on it will continue to live in their own little world.

I do want to change the way it is.  I also don't want to lose bowlers in the process.  Can both be done?  I don't know.  But I don't want to give up either.

And for those that say, "use a plastic ball if you want a challenge," can it also be said that is a form of sandbagging?  I use plastic all year and my average is 15-20 pins lower because of it.  However, for position rounds and tournaments next year I decide to use better suited equipment.  How should that be handled? 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: stopncrank on May 10, 2012, 03:53:24 PM
We have a hard enough time getting enough guys together to run a decent scratch league in my town, much less PBA or sport leagues..

And btw, when I was coming up, it was much simpler, you work your a$$ off to get to scratch, then if you needed/wanted more of a challenge you did PBA regionals...sometimes we try to make things too dificult, and analyze every little thing to death all the while making the game more difficult than it has to be-there lies the real reason behind bowling's decline, at least IMHO....
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 10, 2012, 04:02:14 PM
Everyone knows my stance on this. I like the idea of this, however, you have to take the ball out of the equation.

Technology has driven up the costs of this sport. Manufactures have got us all hooked. This site is proof. Many on here with 10 plus bowling balls. Why? Because the bowling ball arsenal works. Unfortunately it comes with a high price tag. Not many bowlers can afford this.

There are gaps between levels of bowlers and tough oil patterns don't help. Oil patterns adds complexity to equation. And usually the solution is to buy a ball to combat the pattern.

We all know the truth here. The high end ball is the reason for high honor scores and high averages. THS has helped too, but the ball is the big issue here.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Monster Pike on May 10, 2012, 04:09:48 PM
Ok, fair enough TDC... but the guy not bowling in a league since 2009 & bowling a 140 on a sport shot his very 1st night back... coulda been a heck of a lot worse.  Let see what happens next week & the weeks thereafter before taking the easy cheap shot.

And of course, if you really feel the way you tal towards the OP, then you could always opt of his topic.

As far as the topic goes... I dunno, I'm somewhere in the middle I suppose... Both, I think, have their places in the grand scheme of things.  Sport shots challenge the advanced bowler & keep the scoring somewhat in check... And the house shots are there for the social aspect of bowling... But both leagues have their own challenges... Did the house shot lane man put down the same amount of oil he did last week...?  Is the house so dry that you need plastic...?  Then the following week need your heavy oiler? You still have to hit the target area... & still make the spares, no matter what one is bowling on. 

I guess what I'm saying is too each his own.  Either league doesn't bother me 1 bit...
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Metal_rules on May 10, 2012, 04:35:08 PM
I will also say that a tougher shot would be better, but like others have said it will not promote enough revenue for the bowling alley. They are in business to make money, not lose and unfortunately they will lose money because most people that bowl in leagues do not want a tougher condition to bowl on. This is a great concept, but in reality it will not happen.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: glssmn2001 on May 10, 2012, 04:39:12 PM
   I am somewhere in the middle, I feel that the THS needs to be a little tougher in some places. Does it need to be a sport shot, no, not at all. I do believe that it needs to take away the excessive hold in the middle and the bumper on the outside. Nothing drastic, just enough to let the bowler know that errant shots do not result in pocket hits.

  I do not feel this would drive away bowlers in herds, the reason being that, the only people left are people who want to bowl.

 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: JOE FALCO on May 10, 2012, 05:57:25 PM
Just a little note .. probable doesn't apply, didn't read all the postings ..

I started a Summer league after having leg problems to end the winter league .. Summer league has 6 teams of 4 bowlers per team. I missed first week .. bowled last night for first time of two week old league. There have been three different individuals that have thrown 300 games already! In my one attempt I averaged 165 .. my leg problem continues but I wanted to bowl at least 1 league during the summer.

Are the shots too easy? Are the balls too good? Whatever it is .. scoring seems to be too easy! You can't judge by my performance ..
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: kidlost2000 on May 10, 2012, 06:34:24 PM
The subject is valid as long as people want to reply. The responsibility to me at this point fall all on the bowler. You have to get out of it what you want.

If you say it is too easy and want it tougher then you can make it that way by easily making adjustments in equipment. If you average 30 pins less for the year then decide at the end of the season to change equipment again because you need the edge to try and win a league roll off then yes that makes you a hypocrite more then just a sandbagger. Tournaments you use the higher average over two years so you will still use your previous average while throwing lesser equipment.

If you don't really want that then don't waste the time talking about "what ifs" as bowlers you have the chance to make equipment a non factor. Golf is the same way. You can down grade equipment, same for baseball/softball and other sports. Alll are effected by technology and all participants have their choice to make on if they want to use it or not. It is roided up equipment hands down.

Bowling is rather cheap if you choose not to fall into the hype. Brunswick has a Slingshot that uses PK17 from the Zone series and the two Damages that use PK18 also from the Zone line. Both covers today are still plenty of ball for any bowler to use on a typical shot. The Ebonite Cyclone entry level ball uses GB10.1, the same cover used on their most aggressive ball, The One, from 5-6 years ago. Same price point as other entry level bowling balls and a lot more aggressive cover. It is very affordable and gives anybody the oppurtuinty to have a more aggressive hooking ball then needed. The high end covers in most manufacture lines trickle down to lower prices points rather quickly. Money isn't the issue for most bowlers, it is not buying into the hype.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: sevenpin63 on May 10, 2012, 08:21:36 PM
Let me first just say I am on Dooms team.

This is my first attempt at a sports league, and it didn't go very well, but its just the first night and I WILL IMPROVE.

I did this sports League to challenge myself and improve my bowling abilities. Hoping I will improve myself for the future.

Maybe I thought I was better than I was. After last years Nat. Tourney I shot fairly well, but last Tuesday kicked my butt. 

And to each his own, if people want to talk about this more power to em.
If you don't like it don't read it, but their is no reason to go after the op for wanting to talk about this.

I think their is enough room for both and everybody can have what they want.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 10, 2012, 09:08:05 PM
sevinpin63,

Yes, anyone can talk about it all they want and have that right, but the problem is this is about the 1000th time it's been brought up. There are no real answers, just mainly elitists who have nother better to do than yell their whiny butts off complaining about the average league bowler shooting some high scores and carrying averages that don't truly define them. They forget these THS heros then go to tournaments and get their azzes handed to them. They also forget that it's the average league bowlers who are the one who provide them all the money the elitists win each year in their leagues and tournaments!!!!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: gandalf2hands on May 10, 2012, 11:09:01 PM
I think many more serious bowlers would love the opportunity to bowl sports leagues and other tougher patterns.. Problem is, where are they? Some cities/towns have a couple going, only 10-20 minutes drive away. Others are considerably further..

Many of us have to get up early for our "real" job, and it can begin quite early.. So for me, I end up bowling at my local house, where all I ever bowl on is their THS.. It's not hard, just have to do be consistant in speed,revs and balance for the most part.

I feel  Impending Doom, u might consider pulling your  their head in, and take into account peoples lives, with time,money and family commitments, before paying out on house bowlers..

I think toughening up a house shot, would bring some of the big house dogs down, but really, the problem is so much bigger than simply harder conditions. To think, u would let centers close down, and only the commited will stay, well, lets see how u feel when u have to possibly travel over an hour to get to the 1 regional bowling center in your area, as do the other thousands of league bowlers,  just to bowl league.. Bowling WILL DIE even quicker than what is happening today..Seems to be a very selfish attitude to take, if u love bowling as much as u claim.

Hate using golf to compare, but when I shoot 80 on my local course (I never have I'm learning around 120 at the mo, I'm terrible lol), I know that shooting that score at St Andrews or Pebble Beach is not going to happen.. It's still ALL golf, it's just relative!! We just have to be honest with ourselves.. If the 225 plus big dogs at your center prance around, u know, that on a harder shot, they will be nowhere near that..They are just kidding themselves, let them have their glory, or if u resent them, BEAT THEM..Don't hate them for being better than u..Do something about it, and practise!

I actually envy you Impending Doom, that u can participate in a sports league!! But equally it would be nice to think that u may have more respect for house bowlers, who through no fault of there own do not get that opportunity..



I like the idea of setting up a Sports shot, just do not have any centers putting it down.. Thats not my fault, I would sign up tomorrow if my local center did that..

Just my 2c here..

Bottom line, I'll bowl on whatever I get period!! Why, cause I love bowling!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 10, 2012, 11:18:41 PM
A very well thought out post gandalf2hands. A++
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 10, 2012, 11:35:59 PM
Wow. Name calling... I see some of you have been hanging around with my 12 year old...

Elitist? I prefer purist.
Idiot? Not even close.
Imbecile? Good use of your thesaurus.
Numbnuts? Hey, that's caused by a childhood accid.. er, wait. Nevermind.

Listen, you want your easy house shot? Go ahead. Just call it what it is. It's not bowling. It's the Ray Charles Open. It's Adult Bumper Bowling. It's people that don't want to put any time or effort in, and want the maximum out of it, and if they don't get what they think they deserve, well, gosh darn it, it must be the arrow, not the Indian!

In my line of work, there are 3 kinds of people, and I find that this also applied when I ran my pro shop.

1. The person that knows little to nothing about the specific topic. So, in this instance, a new bowler.
2. The person that knows enough to be dangerous. This would be most of the house bowlers that think that they can coach you, tell you that your stuff is drilled wrong because it doesn't look like his stuff, and could do the pro shops job much better than the owner operator.
3. The person that actually has a clue. Those people hardly speak up anymore, because they let #2 just run their mouths until they run themselves into a corner, and can't explain their way out of it.

Don't sanction the THS leagues. No more rings or plaques or anything like that. You want sanctioning? Make the house follow a baseline oil pattern. If you don't, too bad. You explain it to your customer.

Our numbers are already down. Centers are closing down all over the place already. Don't everyone act like bowling is a booming business right now. Know why there is no one in your centers?

No one needs to practice on the easy shot! Surprise!

You tell bowlers that they are going to have a chance to practice on something other than the house shot, people will show up. If it's just the house shot, what's the point? Everyone can score on the house shot!

When I ran my shop, I had it in a 36 lane house. The GM (what a joke he was) wouldn't do anything different during the day. Not change the shot, not charge less, nothing. He told me that it costs him money, and he wasn't going to give anything away. He told me this as the entire house was empty, and remained empty until 5. Yeah, that's smart.

Equipment... OK. I'll use plastic. Everyone else does too. Bring the loads that the oil machine is putting out down to the level where a plastic ball is going to make some sense. No need for the big puddle in the middle anymore, right? No more big hooking, big flaring balls tearing up our lane beds! We can save money and use less oil!

We can have a handle on equipment as well. USBC just recently reduced the max diff from .080 to .060. With the rate that people replace equipment, everyone being at that level is going to be a reality soon.

Well, let's reduce it to .040. Let's get a handle on RA values. Let's get rid of asymmetricals. It's all doable... It will just take time to have that be the standard.

And if you've heard this all before, what the hell are you doing about the problem? Are you a watercooler kind of person, who talks about all the injustice in the world, or do you actually go out, and try to change things?

Last time I checked, we were all bowlers. You wanna stand by while the powers that be wreck it? That's on you, buddy.

Not me.

P.S. Since this has been posted 1000 times, I am also going to go start a thread about what the hell a ball drilled Rico will do. That topic hasn't been beaten to death.  :o
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 10, 2012, 11:41:59 PM
I agree. Well thought out. Just a question for you, if I may.

Would you stop bowling there if they made the shot tougher?

I understand trying to get there is tough. I sympathise with you. Wouldn't you much rather enjoy a challenge, because it is taking up precious time? If not, that's cool. Just accept that it isn't you playing the sport. It's you playing a game, in my eyes.

After my first night in league, I went back the next day. I averaged 240 on the THS, and purposely didn't hit the same mark twice. I walked up and threw it. That's not sport.

Bowling deserves better.

I think many more serious bowlers would love the opportunity to bowl sports leagues and other tougher patterns.. Problem is, where are they? Some cities/towns have a couple going, only 10-20 minutes drive away. Others are considerably further..

Many of us have to get up early for our "real" job, and it can begin quite early.. So for me, I end up bowling at my local house, where all I ever bowl on is their THS.. It's not hard, just have to do be consistant in speed,revs and balance for the most part.

I feel  Impending Doom, u might consider pulling your  their head in, and take into account peoples lives, with time,money and family commitments, before paying out on house bowlers..

I think toughening up a house shot, would bring some of the big house dogs down, but really, the problem is so much bigger than simply harder conditions. To think, u would let centers close down, and only the commited will stay, well, lets see how u feel when u have to possibly travel over an hour to get to the 1 regional bowling center in your area, as do the other thousands of league bowlers,  just to bowl league.. Bowling WILL DIE even quicker than what is happening today..Seems to be a very selfish attitude to take, if u love bowling as much as u claim.

Hate using golf to compare, but when I shoot 80 on my local course (I never have I'm learning around 120 at the mo, I'm terrible lol), I know that shooting that score at St Andrews or Pebble Beach is not going to happen.. It's still ALL golf, it's just relative!! We just have to be honest with ourselves.. If the 225 plus big dogs at your center prance around, u know, that on a harder shot, they will be nowhere near that..They are just kidding themselves, let them have their glory, or if u resent them, BEAT THEM..Don't hate them for being better than u..Do something about it, and practise!

I actually envy you Impending Doom, that u can participate in a sports league!! But equally it would be nice to think that u may have more respect for house bowlers, who through no fault of there own do not get that opportunity..



I like the idea of setting up a Sports shot, just do not have any centers putting it down.. Thats not my fault, I would sign up tomorrow if my local center did that..

Just my 2c here..

Bottom line, I'll bowl on whatever I get period!! Why, cause I love bowling!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 11, 2012, 02:54:17 AM
Bowling, in my opinion, needs both the easy conditions and the tougher ones. I prefer the challenge of the tougher ones, which is why I'm bowling one this summer.

However, the masses want to have fun and and their self esteem is closely tied to their scores.  They want to show off to the open play people. They want a ball for every possible condition, even though they will only bowl on the THS. They buy beer (or sodas), and contrary to some, they pay the bills so the center you bowl at can keep the doors open.

Sport bowling leagues are great, and for a relatively small portion of us provide a reality check as to our true skill levels. They force us to be accurate and repeat shots with consistency, or pay the price. However, if that were the only thing available, the same center that offers you the sport condition might close it's doors because their customer base went to the competition, who puts out the easier shot.

It has everything to do with human nature, and very little to do with bowling, and the fact that most people will choose the path of least resistance.

Not everyone is a bowling purist. Some do it for recreation, or giggles, or camaraderie with their friends. If you chase away the majority of bowlers (and their revenue) you will have no place to bowl your sport league before long.

Pretty much agree with much of this. As a side note, though, and IMHO, the crude "black and white" world of THS and sport bowling painted in the original post does not really exist. It is a vision of self-proclaimed elitists and it does not help anyone. I pretty much agree with Carter's impression, that you need the whole range, from children's birthday parties up to professional levels, where lane intelligence is part of the game.

Having just one end of both extremes won't save the game, sport, or whatever you call bowling. And as long as economic factors dictate the conditions for players (e .g. putting out only minimum lane conditioner to protect the lane surface) and many egos are involved (love those senior players with no hand, 10mph speed and tossing high end orbs, then complain about the poor carry and that 'the ball does not hook'... you know the archetypes [Class 2 - nice portrait!]), the "Class 3 bowlers" will have a hard time and remain a minority who must be lucky to find a house and probably a ball driller who has sport ambitions and "understands" that bowling is more than just punching 3 holes into an expensive plastic thing, in order to cover as many boards as possible without clue of the item's operator. Sad, but that's the way it is, and I cannot see any way to change it, esp. from a governing body's point of view.

Additionally, a point from the previous post: I'd personally love to play/practice on tougher conditions, I'd be even happy there was just enough oil out there to use anything from a weak reactive upwards. But the only occasion I find this might be a "sport league", which will take place in the evening in a neighboring city - totally unrealistic for my life reality.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: gandalf2hands on May 11, 2012, 04:53:37 AM
 

I find your attitude NOT cool, and the fact that you disrespect me and about a million of other bowlers by saying that "it's you playing a game, not a sport".. who are hell are you mate?? Seriously....

Do not judge every bowler by your lofty expectations of what the "sport" of bowling is..

I think you appear to have an "elitist" air about you...

You still don't get it, there is knowone here who disagrees with the ideology of what u are saying, but the cold hard facts are centrers need bowlers. I wish they would toughen up the shot,I've seen 225 plus sprayers at times, and u do think to myself gee that should have been a spare/split.... It goes for me as well, it's all relative, I still have to compete agsainst these guys.. I do not have a problem on whatever I get, but I'm over 200 and improving, so I like the challenge.. You mentioned u worked in the industry.. Di d u ever own the business, if not, then you are speaking from a perspective of having nothing on the line.. People say I would do this and I would do that, but the reality is that when u have a big bloody loan sitting on your shoulders, with nice big repayments to make in operating a bowling center, you cannot necessarily follow your agenda, do u have a family? Tell your wife you will have to re mortgage the family house because u want you to make bowling a "sport"..Tell me how that goes down!!!...

Would any business let money walk out the door! Your reasoning is faulty, again the basic premise of take it or leave it, can break this sport.. By the way it is a sport, my league bowling is a sport, I focus, I concentrate, I adjust, I think, I'm serious, I work hard and practise at it.. So do not tell me this is not a sport..For many of us we do throw predominantly on THS, if I threw on a harder pattern then does that mean that it is now a "sport"???

.. So if I don't play Pebble Beach in golf, and play my local golf course, then I am not playing the sport of golf using your reasoning?!?..

We have "sports" bowling for bowlers wanting more of a challenge, just like tougher golf courses..Just because some bowlers quit cause they know where they are at, that says more of them, then there are the ones that try it and enjoy the challenge (like yourself, thats great!), and then theres a truck load of bowlers who bowl THS. You give me a sports shot to my center and I'm there.. If not, don't assume myself and the other million that we are all hacks, and are not wanting to improve and be the best we can be with our available time and money, and are just participating in this "game"!! It is unfair and inaccurate!



Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 11, 2012, 09:35:16 AM
Personally I think any decision one way or the other could be a detriment to the sport as a whole and eventually shut it down.  The "elitists" only account for about 10% of the total bowling population.  If the USBC starts to cater to what the 10% want, then who is to say that 50% of that remaining 90% go bye bye?  And then what?  Now your total membership drops significantly further and then centers are going to have to become what we dont want and that is family entertainment centers that now have to care only about open play and parties. 

IMO....there is no reason that we cant make a shot that is a little tougher, thats fair to everyone without sacrificing too much of the scoring pace, and yet have enough length and volume for todays bowling balls.  The difference between your high average league bowler dropping from 230+ down to 220 and your 200 bowler dropping to 185-190 is not so significant that I dont think people are going to quit.  However, if your 230 THS drops to 200-210 and your 190 drops to 165-170, then you will start to see people walking.  I think if you take these houses that have 8:1 to 10:1 volume ratios and drop them into the 4:1 area, it toughens the shot without making them unfair.  But if you take that ratio and drop it to where the USBC ratio is this year, then I think no doubt people will turn the other way.  I believe if centers can come up with something in the 40 foot area length wise and just flatten out the pattern SOME, then bowlers actually might be more apt to focus more from shot to shot and try to become better as opposed to walking out the door.  In other words, dont make the shot too easy and yet dont make the shot too hard either.  Find a middle of the road per se and see what happens.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: qstick777 on May 11, 2012, 09:53:42 AM
@Qstick As far as I know, there are only a million or so USBC members at present.  I think it is fair to say there are no longer, sanctioned or unsanctioned, "millions of league bowlers."

I don't think it it elitist to want to compete at a higher level with a more level playing field than what is offered in most league environments.  That doesn't mean proponents of Sport Bowling are ready for the PBA or should have to bowl the PBA in order to be more challenged.

I don't have a problem with folks who want to shoot their big sets and have a good time but for players that want something else we shouldn't have to beg proprietors to offer something other than cake on the menu.

Sorry if that comes across to you as elitist.




Elitist or not, if these guys want to bowl on "sport" or PBA conditions it really is quite simple.  Go out and grab 100 or so people that want it and are willing to commit to a full season at $20 (or more) per week.  I'm sure they won't have a problem finding a center that will cater to their wants.

Don't come hear and complain about the conditions that the "average" center is putting out for their "average" customer.

If there was truly a demand for tougher conditions the centers would be putting them out.

Or, if you have a couple million dollars, go out and get your own center and you can put out whatever conditions you like. 

And I'm really tired of people complaining about how bowling is perceived.  If you like to bowl then do it - who cares what other people think?

I can go to the school playground and drain 3 pointers all day long - it doesn't mean I'm ready for the NBA.

Again, leagues are "recreation."  You don't need any special skills to participate.....you simply have to be able to pay the fees.

Sorry that us 180 average guys are showing up each week to hang out with friends, eat some food, drink some beers, and donate to your prize fund.  We didn't realize we were causing you so much grief.

At the end of the day it's just rolling a ball 60 feet at some wooden pins.  Anybody can do it.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TheGame300 on May 11, 2012, 10:17:30 AM
By reading the above comment, someone like yourself should then have no problem bowling in a non sanctioned league.  You just want to go to the lanes and have fun with friends.

That is my solution. Any USBC sanctioned league should have to be sport compliant.  If you want a fun league, then just bowl in something the house puts together for you.

If you want an award of any kind, you should have to earn it.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: qstick777 on May 11, 2012, 10:18:06 AM
Just another note of the subject:

I love how everybody talks about the "THS" as if it's some established pattern.  Every center is different.  Your THS might be bone dry, while somebody else's would be considered "heavy oil."  Anvilane is different than HPL, which is different than wood.

And from what I've seen in most of my leagues, throwing a plastic ball at 16+ mph and getting anywhere close to the head pin still has as much of a chance of striking as the "well placed pocket shot" of the most talented stroker.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: qstick777 on May 11, 2012, 10:24:27 AM
By reading the above comment, someone like yourself should then have no problem bowling in a non sanctioned league.  You just want to go to the lanes and have fun with friends.

That is my solution. Any USBC sanctioned league should have to be sport compliant.  If you want a fun league, then just bowl in something the house puts together for you.

If you want an award of any kind, you should have to earn it.

Sanctioned or not, I bowl for the personal enjoyment and the personal challenge.  I don't begrudge any of the "spray and pray" guys for their high sets, averages, or honor scores. 

While I only started bowling 8 years ago, I actually did seek out a "sport" league in an effort to make myself better.  They weren't available - actually found 1 that conflicted with a previous commitment.  I was able to sub in that league about 4 times - bowled within 5 pins of my THS average......apparently it's just as easy to suck on a sport pattern as it is on a THS!

Today (8 years later) there still isn't a demand for PBA or Sport leagues, and I bowl in an area where the centers are full at least 6 days a week with leagues (smallest center is 32 lanes - average is 36 lanes).
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: ImBackInTheGame on May 11, 2012, 11:32:18 AM

That is my solution. Any USBC sanctioned league should have to be sport compliant.  If you want a fun league, then just bowl in something the house puts together for you.

If you want an award of any kind, you should have to earn it.

This speaks loudly in my opinion.  I completely agree! 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 11, 2012, 11:52:23 AM
From TWOHAND,
Quote
IMO....there is no reason that we cant make a shot that is a little tougher, thats fair to everyone without sacrificing too much of the scoring pace, and yet have enough length and volume for todays bowling balls.  The difference between your high average league bowler dropping from 230+ down to 220 and your 200 bowler dropping to 185-190 is not so significant that I dont think people are going to quit.  However, if your 230 THS drops to 200-210 and your 190 drops to 165-170, then you will start to see people walking.  I think if you take these houses that have 8:1 to 10:1 volume ratios and drop them into the 4:1 area, it toughens the shot without making them unfair.

This is where I think the game should head.  I think the misconception by many is some bowlers want Sport and THS only.  I feel, as does TWOHAND, that there should just be a slightly more difficult shot than THS.

My girlfriend bowled the Women's US Open last year (or as some called it, the US Wide Open).  There were (11) 300 games bowled during qualifying.  My girlfriend bowled next to Lynda Barnes all through qualifying and Lynda shot (2) 299s in one shift.  And yet the shot was a 6.25:1 ratio.  You didn't have to be razor sharp to bowl well, but you did need to understand transitions and ball match-up to succeed.  On top of that, pretty much everyone was upset about the shot because it was TOO EASY!!  Especially for the US Open. 

And for those who are concerned about the owners putting out whatever they want.  You can implement random testing.  You can actually not tell the owners when you will arrive for certification.  I have seen centers put out a shot for certification (they knew the exact minute the team would arrive to test the lanes) and use a different shot for league. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TheGame300 on May 11, 2012, 11:53:44 AM
I always try to explain to people that just because a pattern is "sport" compliant, doesn't mean it is impossible to score on.  It just means it meets the 3-1 ratio.  I have bowled on sport patterns that were easier than most house shots and ones that make you look good to shoot 170.

That is the problem with the PBA leagues and other sport leagues when they try to form.  People right away say that I am not going to do good on it so I don't even want to try.  Perception of not scoring over 200 every game is the problem.

By reading the above comment, someone like yourself should then have no problem bowling in a non sanctioned league.  You just want to go to the lanes and have fun with friends.

That is my solution. Any USBC sanctioned league should have to be sport compliant.  If you want a fun league, then just bowl in something the house puts together for you.

If you want an award of any kind, you should have to earn it.

Sanctioned or not, I bowl for the personal enjoyment and the personal challenge.  I don't begrudge any of the "spray and pray" guys for their high sets, averages, or honor scores. 

While I only started bowling 8 years ago, I actually did seek out a "sport" league in an effort to make myself better.  They weren't available - actually found 1 that conflicted with a previous commitment.  I was able to sub in that league about 4 times - bowled within 5 pins of my THS average......apparently it's just as easy to suck on a sport pattern as it is on a THS!

Today (8 years later) there still isn't a demand for PBA or Sport leagues, and I bowl in an area where the centers are full at least 6 days a week with leagues (smallest center is 32 lanes - average is 36 lanes).
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Good Times Good Times on May 11, 2012, 12:05:40 PM
We bowled on Viper last night for the 1st night of our PBAX league.  I shot 599 by making spares (AGAIN making my point that my plastic is THE MOST important ball in my arsenal) and managing the pocket and making a huge focus effort on transitioning correctly and making pure shots.  I was keeping the pocket in play but unfortunately leaving a ton of wrap 10 and enough 9 pins.  Good shots and leaving myself in a position to fill frames.  Ya know, the grind...

Earning 599 with 2 opens all night was MORE FUN than going into winter league and shooting the typical 680-720ish on a THS.

That's just me.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 11, 2012, 01:26:59 PM
I love how this comes up two or three times a year.  I've talked about the "elitists" or the "tourney hacks" vs the "house hacks" and you are never going to have a center put down a shot that will keep both factions happy.  They must be separate, they have to be separate.  Why do you think this goes in one ear and out the other of the proprietor?  They already know this to be true.

I don't understand what the real deal is, in most sports there are divisions based on skill levels.  Baseball as A ball, AA ball, AAA ball, and the bigs.  Basketball has them, football has them, even golf has them.  Who doesn't understand the difference?  Who feels they have to justify their skill level, or why they bowl, or where they bowl to anybody but themselves?  When did bowlers become so psychologically needy and whiners?     
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TheGame300 on May 11, 2012, 01:39:28 PM
You can't compare other sports to bowling in that way.  It doesn't matter what level of baseball, football, hockey, etc. you are playing at, the rules are the same. Same ball, bases are the same distance. You get the point.  With bowling you have the x factor known as lane oil.  Changing that changes the level of difficulty.

And yes we know that the proprietors are always going to cater to the majority.  This is just a case of what we would like to see happen.

And I always like when posters on here call other posters "elitists".  Um, we are all on a bowling ball review site, isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black.  Makes me laugh.

I love how this comes up two or three times a year.  I've talked about the "elitists" or the "tourney hacks" vs the "house hacks" and you are never going to have a center put down a shot that will keep both factions happy.  They must be separate, they have to be separate.  Why do you think this goes in one ear and out the other of the proprietor?  They already know this to be true.

I don't understand what the real deal is, in most sports there are divisions based on skill levels.  Baseball as A ball, AA ball, AAA ball, and the bigs.  Basketball has them, football has them, even golf has them.  Who doesn't understand the difference?  Who feels they have to justify their skill level, or why they bowl, or where they bowl to anybody but themselves?  When did bowlers become so psychologically needy and whiners?   
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: stopncrank on May 11, 2012, 02:17:49 PM
What I dont understand is the uproar over "easy" shots...center operators all across the country are not in the business of losing money, and are not going to cater to the 1% out there who feel THS is too easy...

Add to that the one's on here complaining about not having Sport/PBA conditions readily available at every center...and they(the center owners) shouldnt really feel a need to offer them when there is a PBA regional division thats readily available no matter where you live, thats what they are there for.

Wonder how many of the ones on here begging for harder shots support the PBA regional program?? My guess is not too many, because the truth is they want the shots but not the reality check they would receive....which is not much different than those who chose not to participate on harder shots, the divide between the two sides is not as large as many on here want you to beleive.....
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TheGame300 on May 11, 2012, 02:32:49 PM
I bowl in a PBA Experience league in the winter and I used to bowl some regional events, but $350 for one tournament is a little expensive when you are just trying to get experience bowling on tougher conditions.

What I dont understand is the uproar over "easy" shots...center operators all across the country are not in the business of losing money, and are not going to cater to the 1% out there who feel THS is too easy...

Add to that the one's on here complaining about not having Sport/PBA conditions readily available at every center...and they(the center owners) shouldnt really feel a need to offer them when there is a PBA regional division thats readily available no matter where you live, thats what they are there for.

Wonder how many of the ones on here begging for harder shots support the PBA regional program?? My guess is not too many, because the truth is they want the shots but not the reality check they would receive....which is not much different than those who chose not to participate on harder shots, the divide between the two sides is not as large as many on here want you to beleive.....
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 11, 2012, 02:45:02 PM
You can't compare other sports to bowling in that way.  It doesn't matter what level of baseball, football, hockey, etc. you are playing at, the rules are the same. Same ball, bases are the same distance. You get the point.  With bowling you have the x factor known as lane oil.  Changing that changes the level of difficulty.

And yes we know that the proprietors are always going to cater to the majority.  This is just a case of what we would like to see happen.

And I always like when posters on here call other posters "elitists".  Um, we are all on a bowling ball review site, isn't that like the pot calling the kettle black.  Makes me laugh.

I love how this comes up two or three times a year.  I've talked about the "elitists" or the "tourney hacks" vs the "house hacks" and you are never going to have a center put down a shot that will keep both factions happy.  They must be separate, they have to be separate.  Why do you think this goes in one ear and out the other of the proprietor?  They already know this to be true.

I don't understand what the real deal is, in most sports there are divisions based on skill levels.  Baseball as A ball, AA ball, AAA ball, and the bigs.  Basketball has them, football has them, even golf has them.  Who doesn't understand the difference?  Who feels they have to justify their skill level, or why they bowl, or where they bowl to anybody but themselves?  When did bowlers become so psychologically needy and whiners?   


I definitely beg to differ, sir.  Rules are the same in baseball but there's a helluva big difference facing Justin Verlander vs. some A-Ball pitcher or striking out a Crash Davis in the Southern League and striking out Albert Puhols.  Same rules, very different circumstances.  Minor league hockey is played at about 10 mph slower than the NHL.  PGA plays with the same rules as the weekenders but from the blue tees and in longer roughs.  Same game, same rules but just a bit tougher, eh?

Cream rises to the top.  Even in bowling.  You don't like bowling on China?  Dumb it down, shell it down, or just don't bowl on it.  Can't score on tougher conditions?  Up your game, get some hand, get a coach or just don't bowl on it.   
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 11, 2012, 02:50:12 PM
Wow. Name calling... I see some of you have been hanging around with my 12 year old...

Elitist? I prefer purist.
Idiot? Not even close.
Imbecile? Good use of your thesaurus.
Numbnuts? Hey, that's caused by a childhood accid.. er, wait. Nevermind.

Listen, you want your easy house shot? Go ahead. Just call it what it is. It's not bowling. It's the Ray Charles Open. It's Adult Bumper Bowling. It's people that don't want to put any time or effort in, and want the maximum out of it, and if they don't get what they think they deserve, well, gosh darn it, it must be the arrow, not the Indian!

In my line of work, there are 3 kinds of people, and I find that this also applied when I ran my pro shop.

1. The person that knows little to nothing about the specific topic. So, in this instance, a new bowler.
2. The person that knows enough to be dangerous. This would be most of the house bowlers that think that they can coach you, tell you that your stuff is drilled wrong because it doesn't look like his stuff, and could do the pro shops job much better than the owner operator.
3. The person that actually has a clue. Those people hardly speak up anymore, because they let #2 just run their mouths until they run themselves into a corner, and can't explain their way out of it.

Don't sanction the THS leagues. No more rings or plaques or anything like that. You want sanctioning? Make the house follow a baseline oil pattern. If you don't, too bad. You explain it to your customer.

Our numbers are already down. Centers are closing down all over the place already. Don't everyone act like bowling is a booming business right now. Know why there is no one in your centers?

No one needs to practice on the easy shot! Surprise!

You tell bowlers that they are going to have a chance to practice on something other than the house shot, people will show up. If it's just the house shot, what's the point? Everyone can score on the house shot!

When I ran my shop, I had it in a 36 lane house. The GM (what a joke he was) wouldn't do anything different during the day. Not change the shot, not charge less, nothing. He told me that it costs him money, and he wasn't going to give anything away. He told me this as the entire house was empty, and remained empty until 5. Yeah, that's smart.

Equipment... OK. I'll use plastic. Everyone else does too. Bring the loads that the oil machine is putting out down to the level where a plastic ball is going to make some sense. No need for the big puddle in the middle anymore, right? No more big hooking, big flaring balls tearing up our lane beds! We can save money and use less oil!

We can have a handle on equipment as well. USBC just recently reduced the max diff from .080 to .060. With the rate that people replace equipment, everyone being at that level is going to be a reality soon.

Well, let's reduce it to .040. Let's get a handle on RA values. Let's get rid of asymmetricals. It's all doable... It will just take time to have that be the standard.

And if you've heard this all before, what the hell are you doing about the problem? Are you a watercooler kind of person, who talks about all the injustice in the world, or do you actually go out, and try to change things?

Last time I checked, we were all bowlers. You wanna stand by while the powers that be wreck it? That's on you, buddy.

Not me.

P.S. Since this has been posted 1000 times, I am also going to go start a thread about what the hell a ball drilled Rico will do. That topic hasn't been beaten to death.  :o


Another nugget from the all knowing Impending Doom. Now everyone can see that elitist, idiot, imbecile, numb nuts or any other similar adjective fits him perfectly. Make all conditions sport compliant or anyone who doesn't want such conditions must bowl in unsanctioned leagues? OK, that's the answer!! There will be no more sanctioned league bowling under that scenario. This guy knows nothing! He is cut from the same cloth as the Occupy movement morons. They spew what they think everything should be but actually have no clue about what they speak and no reasonable solution. Impending Doom, set down you pot pipe and back away slowly. You have totally fallen out of touch with reality. You speak little or no truth. You are done! It's funny I bowl at a center that lays down a shot that yields good scores but no 800s and only 2 300s this year. If you throw the ball as you should you can score. The place is full. Waiting lists to get a team in any league. I don't know what city your cave is located but you are the most clueless person on the earth at this moment. You can't even comprehend the comparison that was made with golf about different tee boxes. Golf doesn't tell people it's this way or get lost. Elitists like you want bowlers that play on easier shots to switch to tougher shots or become open bowlers. Well that sounds very inclusive, comrade. I think it's time for you to find another sport for a hobby since this one makes you so unhappy. We average league bowlers are enjoying ourselves and the only time we have anything that causes us displeasure is having to hear neanderthals like you tell us what we must do. Stick to voting the left side of the ballot and running with the crowd that thinks they know what is best for us. I'll stay with the people that have no intentions of being pros but just like to enjoy the competition against like thinkers, our THS leagues offer. You can continue to take our league and tournament money. We're fine with that because the one thing you can't take from us is our enjoyment we get from bowling!!!!!


One other thing Doom and Gloom. I remember buying a AMF Angle when they first came out in the early 80s. I stopped a center I had never been in before to try it out. I was a 180 bowler at that time and rented a lane for an hour. I only threw a couple of shots that missed the pocket and averaged about 220. It seemed ungodly easy. What does the "purist" in you say about that condition 30 years ago?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: MI 2 AZ on May 11, 2012, 03:08:51 PM
I appreciate seeing both sides of a bowling discussion because sometimes good points are made from a position that I had not considered.  What I dislike is how quickly or easily almost any discussion degenerates into name-calling.  For those who like to pursue such behavior, could you take it to PMs or start a topic in the Non-Bowling Anything Goes forum?

Again, I think there are good points being made on all sides of this topic and I appreciate seeing this topic from others' point of view. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 11, 2012, 03:11:53 PM
This is what impending doom and gloom wanted so lets just keep it here!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Juggernaut on May 11, 2012, 04:21:53 PM
 I have been called many names by others on here, mostly because I have/had differing opinions on the subjects being discussed. One of those "names" was ELITIST.

 I AM NO ELITIST, I AM SIMPLY A BOWLER.


 With that being said, I am going to comment on this subject again. I have been bowling for about 30 years now. I have seen it transition from a place where the focus was being as accurate and repetitive with your very limited equipment, to a place where it is ALL about the mythological "matchup" of bowler with their myriad choices of equipment.

 It isn't about the "toughness" of the shot. It never was. The "modern" notion of "easy" and "hard" shots is a misnomer. The "easy" THS has ALWAYS existed, and ALWAYS will.

WHAT CHANGED WAS THE EQUIPMENT USED, MAINLY THE BOWLING BALL ITSELF.

 Until the advent of the resin era, the "sport shot" had never even been heard of, and was only invented in an effort to mask the real problem. Thing is, you CANNOT fix one problem by creating an artificial situation in an effort to compensate. When you try to do this, you only magnify and multiply the original situation, which is that the modern bowling ball has far too much ability to manipulate oil patterns.

IT ISN'T ABOUT THE "SHOT", ITS ABOUT THE BALLS ABILITY TO CREATE FRICTION.

 Now, I am only one guy. A guy who has spent many hours learning to bowl, actively bowling, and loving the game of bowling. But that love, and desire, does not blind me to reality, and the reality is this: THE MODERN BALL ISN'T GOING AWAY ANYTIME SOON.

 I will continue to bowl, and I will continue to love it. I also realize that there are many who will not see the reality this, because there are many (probably most) that have never competed with anything other than the "modern" ball, and therefore are actively precluded from even being able to see the situation for what it is. That is not their fault though, and any vitrionic responses from them must be taken with a bit of understanding that they cannot fully comprehend what I am speaking of, because they have never experienced the "before" time.

 I have accepted the fact that bowling has forever changed from what it was, to what it is now, and have chosen to compete at the best level I can manage. Change is inevitable, I just wish it hadn't been so drastic.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: mainzer on May 11, 2012, 05:27:17 PM
Juggs I disagree the shot is the issue not the ball

It is so easy to tighten up a Standard THS, Take some oil off the heads and put it down lane more, strong stuff will roll a bit to early, weak stuff a bit to late carry will become a little tougher. Add a few more units outside of ten take away the wall tighten the shot up and the averages will fall. Guys that can't adjust will whine, guys that can will find a way to score.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Spider Man on May 11, 2012, 05:32:03 PM


+1.


what's next? ban birthday parties on the lanes? you never see such spectacles in the middle of the golf course! yeah, I got ticked this past winter when I stepped in a puddle of pop (we just threw a towel over it) but I got over it b/c I understand the center is struggling to make money - so I kept my mouth shut.

so if a center is in business to stay in business, who do the owners want more of: the elite scratch bowlers who drinks (free) ice water or the fun mixed league bowler downing pizza and (expensive) shots?

the USBC? they only care about processing dues, not your opinions.







A very nice Utopian vision, except for one small detail -- the USBC has no real power. When all is said and done, the house owners decide on the lane conditions they feel will generate the most revenue. And in most cases, it's a THS that promotes higher scores, repeat business, and subsequently more $$$ spend for alcohol and food.
 
You can do your part by participating in sport leagues and sport tournaments when they're available. Recruit others to do the same. High participation gets attention. Change will be difficult any other way. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: gandalf2hands on May 11, 2012, 06:11:10 PM
Thats one of the many problems facing bowling, in relation to the "integrity" of the lanes, are the lane conditions... If USBC rocked up to every honour score shot, and demanded this and that, then centers would have to oblige! Now, well perhaps if it's a 900, but 300's are becoming very common in every center on any week..Imagine the grief and bad blood a center would get if a honour score was turned down by USBC by one of their bowlers.. 

To think with this discussion re the sport of bowling, the solution which has been stated by several posters of just toughening up the shot a bit, bring everyone down a couple of rungs in the ladder, it's so easy to actually achieve this. It's hard to see these balls going away, so the simplest and most obvious thing to bring scores down IS the lanes.. It wouldn't be hard to do at all.. You could even do it ever so gradually, most centers oiling  machines are programmed in, so it's quite a simple process for center.

Bottom line, business has to cater for the 99% of its client base, not the 1%... What is the percentage of bowlers or centers running sports league? Genuinely interested here..

I think the problems that are faced in bowling are numerous, and that the easy THS is just one of many..  Bowling seems to be adressing these problems, through birthday parties and glow in the dark bowling!! I hear some centers going great guns, many others not so well!

I wonder if we have any psychics here?? Look into your crystal ball (if u have one!) and telll us in 20 yr with leagues be going, is PBA still going?



Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Juggernaut on May 11, 2012, 07:13:53 PM
Juggs I disagree the shot is the issue not the ball

It is so easy to tighten up a Standard THS, Take some oil off the heads and put it down lane more, strong stuff will roll a bit to early, weak stuff a bit to late carry will become a little tougher. Add a few more units outside of ten take away the wall tighten the shot up and the averages will fall. Guys that can't adjust will whine, guys that can will find a way to score.



 I understand your viewpoint, and can appreciate the fact that you really believe what you say, but, to me at least, it really seems to be a matter of what came first.

 Like I said earlier, there is an entire generation of bowlers out there who have never experienced bowling without the resin equipment, which also means they've never experienced bowling without the controversy over the equipment OR the varied means of trying to return the "integrity" of the sport through the manipulation of the conditions designed in a direct attempt to counteract the added performance of the resin ball. To that generation, the modern balls seem "normal", because that's the way it always has been, at least for them.

 I remember a time before all this. A time when people didn't argue about bowling balls, or "sport" conditions. I remember a time when, if you scored well, it meant that YOU performed well, and if you scored poorly, it meant that you performed poorly, and had nothing to do with whether you "matched up" or not. To my generation, the modern balls are NOT normal, nor are the results they yield.

 If your roof were leaking, you could not fix it by working on the plumbing. It would be my contention that bowling has a problem with scoring not because the shot is too easy (because it always has been), but because the equipment is way too strong.

 You, and I, are a small dichotomy of what bowling is experiencing. Two mutually exclusive opinions of what the problem is, and how to "fix" it. You believe it is a "shot" problem that could be "fixed" by creating conditions designed for the new balls, and I think it is a "ball" problem because the new balls are too strong for a "normal" shot.

 Given that we are both sensible individuals, that have obviously given this subject much thought, it leads me to believe that the "real" answer must be somewhere between our two seperate viewpoints. Where exactly that is, nobody seems to know.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 11, 2012, 09:11:43 PM
Some good points being made here of late but the truth of the matter is easy shots have been around for ever. Some proprietors used to put out tough shots to lock certain bowlers out. But that was out of spite and most tried to let their bowlers score if they knew how to do it. Doesn't anybody remember how lane men laid newpaper out on the lanes in certain patterns and sprayed the oil with a bug sprayer around it to set the lanes up? I

 started with a rubber ball, graduated to a White Dot, went to an AMF Angle and then to resin. During all that time from 1974 to present, have bowled at some places the shot was incredibly easy. The one thing though, is I never heard so much bellyaching from the high end bowlers as I do now. Why is it so f-ing different now. The only difference is the scores are higher and that IS NOT because of the lanes it's because the balls are so much more powerful.

I just can't figure out why you high average guys are so pissed at the guys who you believe are fakers. They are fakers, so what? We all know that. Why do you care? You still take their money in league and you shred them in tournaments. Why are you so pissed off then?

That's the question that needs to be answered. It's not how to lower scores and wreck what's left of league bowling. You're the ones with the issues, not the game itself. Everything is relative. Easy lanes were all over the place over the last 50 years, it's just the scores got higher. Kind of like when baseball tries to improve attendance by putting in the lively ball!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: morpheus on May 11, 2012, 10:47:20 PM
Ask the guys on tour if the shot is the problem...with the modern covers and high rev rates the pattern is irellevent within a few games.  Watch the two handers blow up a pattern and tell me how you slow down the scoring pace as they loft the left gutter banking the friction that was created by a few games of play.  I think there was one 900 series before reactives and that one wasn't even sanctioned?  That might be the only legitimate one ever and it was shot with a plastic ball!  Sorry guys it's not the oils, patterns, pins, or lane surfaces...it's the balls.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: notclay on May 11, 2012, 10:54:42 PM

I agree that there have been some good ideas presented here. Personally, I do not believe that the equipment is ever going to "regress" to what it was in yesteryear, whether that be polyester, rubber, or boulders.
 
Technology is what it is. Once it is here no one really wants to go backwards. Can you imagine the advancements in medicine (due to better testing and diagnosing that we enjoy today) ever going backwards?  It's not going to happen.

Don't get me wrong here. I am in no way comparing the importance of advances in medicine to those in bowling.  One is recreation, while the other can be life or death. 

What I am suggesting is that we embrace the technological advances in our sport.  So what if part of the game has become easier.  One can still challenge himself by trying to perfect his footwork, arm swing, and timing even if he bowls on an easier condition. If the typical house shot no longer challenges you, and a tougher condition is not available, then donate your weekly league fees to a local charity. You can immerse yourself into many a good cause and leave a positive imprint somewhere else.

My point is that you can make the most of what's available, or whine and complain that the sky is falling. You choose.  In our sport the best, or most talented, bowler doesn't always win. I'm okay with that, too.  Any other sport probably has a time when "luck" helps someone win. 

Throwing strikes never gets old to me. Neither do spares.  Some days I'm a decent bowler, while others not so much.  It's part of being human. Not every shot is going to strike, even with optimal entry angle, rev rate, and speed.  It's just not going to happen, so our challenge is to find a way to "enjoy the ride".


Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: mainzer on May 12, 2012, 12:12:22 AM
Still be willing to bet you that if you put more volume outside of ten to create out of bounds
and take units off the head of the lane and put it in the midlane which will help negate
the super strong stuff being used the National average would go down. Not every bowler rips
the crap out of it, not everyone is a two handed wonder...the majority of bowles dont understand
how the equipment works they just use it.

To be honest any shot can be broken down in a game or two i.e. Mens Open shot look at the
difference between a pair that is broken down properly and a pair that is not. Singles and doubles
can be almost as easy as a THS.

I understand that the balls do have a impact no doubt at all. But i think the pattern can be tweaked
in small ways to make a huge difference. If those tweakes are made good bowlers will figure it out
but the one line wonder guys will not have that as much miss room and averages will fall.

Ask the guys on tour if the shot is the problem...with the modern covers and high rev rates the pattern is irellevent within a few games.  Watch the two handers blow up a pattern and tell me how you slow down the scoring pace as they loft the left gutter banking the friction that was created by a few games of play.  I think there was one 900 series before reactives and that one wasn't even sanctioned?  That might be the only legitimate one ever and it was shot with a plastic ball!  Sorry guys it's not the oils, patterns, pins, or lane surfaces...it's the balls

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: glssmn2001 on May 12, 2012, 08:42:38 AM
With all this talk of the technological advances in the world and how it has affected bowling balls has me thinking. If bowling ball are technologically advanced and we all use them, why do we not use the technological advances in using lane conditioners and their application??? 

  Sure there has been some changes in how we go about dressing lanes, but why must we use the easiest of easy conditions and then bowl with the best of the best when it comes to balls. The to top it off, most complain that " it hooks too much"......... seems silly.

 Everyone always says that the youth are the future of the game, to which they are. Now, if we brought up the youths bowling on something just a little tougher than what we have now, how would they know the difference ???
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 12, 2012, 02:28:59 PM
notclay,

That was an excellent post and it would be nice if all could embrace those thoughts and let this subject and all the ridiculous rhetoric that follows it,  go away.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 12, 2012, 03:30:17 PM

I agree that there have been some good ideas presented here. Personally, I do not believe that the equipment is ever going to "regress" to what it was in yesteryear, whether that be polyester, rubber, or boulders.
 
Technology is what it is. Once it is here no one really wants to go backwards. Can you imagine the advancements in medicine (due to better testing and diagnosing that we enjoy today) ever going backwards?  It's not going to happen.

Don't get me wrong here. I am in no way comparing the importance of advances in medicine to those in bowling.  One is recreation, while the other can be life or death. 

What I am suggesting is that we embrace the technological advances in our sport.  So what if part of the game has become easier.  One can still challenge himself by trying to perfect his footwork, arm swing, and timing even if he bowls on an easier condition. If the typical house shot no longer challenges you, and a tougher condition is not available, then donate your weekly league fees to a local charity. You can immerse yourself into many a good cause and leave a positive imprint somewhere else.

My point is that you can make the most of what's available, or whine and complain that the sky is falling. You choose.  In our sport the best, or most talented, bowler doesn't always win. I'm okay with that, too.  Any other sport probably has a time when "luck" helps someone win. 

Throwing strikes never gets old to me. Neither do spares.  Some days I'm a decent bowler, while others not so much.  It's part of being human. Not every shot is going to strike, even with optimal entry angle, rev rate, and speed.  It's just not going to happen, so our challenge is to find a way to "enjoy the ride".

+1001
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: charlest on May 12, 2012, 11:03:44 PM
WOW!!!!!!!
HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This has degenerated into a true melee. WHen I read Impending Doom's hypothesis, I felt I agreed with it.

My summary:
All other sports/games apparently provide the "sport" aspect of their "competition" as the main displayed or accessed aspect of their "competition". The game aspect  is or was labeled by some derogatory name, such as T- ball or mini-golf or Pee-wee  football. While in bowling, we call the house condition or the "game" of bowling, "Bowling", and we all "the sport of bowling", "sport bowling".

There is no debate, there is no alternative.That is the way we label our sport, in order to differentiate it from our game.  I also believe that is one step that MUST be taken to "restore bowling's integrity". I assume this is the base subject that we are discussing.

It remains true that our "theoretical" governing body, the USBC, has been bought and taken over by the people who own bowling centers, the BPAA. This is basic politics, because, as in national and local politics, the people with the most money rule everyone else. It's simple economics.

Any discussion that aims at change must first address this situation: how to extract power from the people who have the power. (read: money) Until that is accomplished, any discussion addressing this situation/environment is utterly moot.

You're expressing all your opinions (Nicely done, especially Darreyl), but it is just that - opinions, and nothing more.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: glssmn2001 on May 12, 2012, 11:08:50 PM
The answer is real simple then when we the bowlers want to take the power back. Money is king, so just get bowlers to refuse to get sanctioned. Done.....


 Problem is that no one will do just that and what we have is a game ran just like the government.....yeah I just went there.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: batbowler on May 13, 2012, 02:43:20 AM
Not all bowlers want a sport shot! I tried to run a sport league in our center and last year we had about 8 doubles teams and this year we had 3 people sign up! Out of the 8 teams from last year, half came from a different town. We've been putting out the 2012 Open Championship pattern and can't get but a few people to come bowl on it! We have  a 20 lane center and it's the only one in town! Sorry Doom, but we aren't going sport compliant cause we're not shutting our doors down to please you or the others! We do what we can to keep our doors open and we provide a service to the community and not everybody in this small town aspire to bowl in the floundering PBA! The condition of the lanes is not the demise of bowling, because we have people coming in to bowl. We have our league bowlers and we have a lot of seniors and women bowlers.  Just a note, USBC isn't going to mandate sport condition to be sanctioned through them. They are about getting bowlers not losing them and I've always said we'd be better off providing our own awards with the money bowlers have to pay for sanctions! Just think what your local association could do with the $20 a bowler in their account instead of in the USBC's banking account! We have people that said they could make us patches for our awards already! Just my $.02, Bruce
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: charlest on May 13, 2012, 10:03:56 AM
The answer is real simple then when we the bowlers want to take the power back. Money is king, so just get bowlers to refuse to get sanctioned. Done.....

Simplistic but wrong.
Is every league going to re-write the entire rule book? - NO!
Is every league going to follow the treasurer and president around 24/7 to insure they won't steal the funds that the USBC now bonds? - No!
And that's just the beginning.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: ccrider on May 13, 2012, 03:01:52 PM
I do not think that bowling alleys are opened to perpetuate the sport of bowling. Their goal is to make a profit. Most league bowlers that I know are straight wusses. They do not want a challenging shot and would quit if they had to face one every week.

So, in the real world proprietors are just giving the majority of bowlers what they want in order to maximize profit in this really tough economy.

Even if the USBC mandated tougher conditions most proprietors and leagues would not comply and would likely forego membership in order to maintain  profit.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: glssmn2001 on May 13, 2012, 03:07:48 PM
The answer is real simple then when we the bowlers want to take the power back. Money is king, so just get bowlers to refuse to get sanctioned. Done.....

Simplistic but wrong.
Is every league going to re-write the entire rule book? - NO!
Is every league going to follow the treasurer and president around 24/7 to insure they won't steal the funds that the USBC now bonds? - No!
And that's just the beginning.

  If the bowlers want to make a change then the bowlers must put in the work. Mind you this is all hypothetical and will never happen. Considering your reply, it just more evidence that this will never happen. When no one is willing to put forth an extra effort to invoke change than no change will be made. Could bowlers take the responsibility upon themselves, they sure could, but they will not. Just like bonding, the USBC cover some, not all the money. I bowl in a house and the leagues money is 100% bonded as it is a house league. So things are possible, anything is possible if people are willing to put their mind to it.

   Like you said IS it going to happen....NO
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Juggernaut on May 13, 2012, 03:16:04 PM
Look guys,

 While the initial problem seems simple, it is in that very simplicity that the truth of the matter actually hides, and that, sadly, is that there IS no solution. Not one that anyones found anyway.

 A man named Bill Taylor told us all this was coming, but NOBODY heeded the call he put out DECADES ago about "easy" conditions and high performance balls (plastic at that time), lighter voided pins, and "artificially" inflated scores being detrimental to the sport, and as evidence, I offer this link: http://www.ncausbca.org/bowlmag/archives/bill_taylor--199112.pdf

 So, here we are, a "dysfunctional" family of bowlers, clearly divided along technological lines, and seperated by our philosophical differences of opinions as to how to "fix" our dysfunctionalities.

 It took organized bowling 117 years to get into this shape, so I really don't expect that we could "fix" it overnight. Problem is, once we figure out how to "fix" it (if we do), is there still going to be enough time to save it from dying completely? I'm getting more and more skeptical of this every day.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 14, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
Juggernaut,

Very interesting article.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: rvmark on May 14, 2012, 06:51:19 PM
I would also agree that the article was interesting.   

The question is do we think that bowling would be saved if the every shot was a sport pattern and we had stuck with old technology and pins?  Would the masses be flocking to watch the pros?
Would the sponsors be lining up?

Mark
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 14, 2012, 09:32:35 PM
Of course not.  That's why the whole argument is moot.  Some people have nailed the correct answer.  Both sides must find a way to co-exist.  People get hung up on names and labels.  I don't begrudge the mixed league type bowler who gets his 300 ring on a "easy" condition.  He/she had to carry 12 shots and at least hit the pocket or head pin on all 12.  The shot might have helped him, it may not have.  It sure doesn't take away from my honor scores because I and the people that saw me shoot them know what the shot was like.  Good enough for me.  Why can't that be good enough for others?     
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 14, 2012, 11:07:06 PM
Long Gone Daddy,

Why do you have to be a voice of reason?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Monster Pike on May 15, 2012, 07:15:20 AM
A blind squirrel finds an acorn once in a while...  :o  8)

Long Gone Daddy,

Why do you have to be a voice of reason?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Spider Man on May 15, 2012, 09:14:36 AM

+1




Of course not.  That's why the whole argument is moot.  Some people have nailed the correct answer.  Both sides must find a way to co-exist.  People get hung up on names and labels.  I don't begrudge the mixed league type bowler who gets his 300 ring on a "easy" condition.  He/she had to carry 12 shots and at least hit the pocket or head pin on all 12.  The shot might have helped him, it may not have.  It sure doesn't take away from my honor scores because I and the people that saw me shoot them know what the shot was like.  Good enough for me.  Why can't that be good enough for others?     
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: ccrider on May 15, 2012, 09:51:24 AM
How much of what Bill Taylor says is inaccurate?  I say not much.

How would the new phenoms do with rubber on similar conditions and with wooden pins?  That would be nice to see.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Monster Pike on May 15, 2012, 10:17:13 AM
How much of what Bill Taylor says is inaccurate?  I say not much.

How would the new phenoms do with rubber on similar conditions and with wooden pins?  That would be nice to see.

Sort of like the wooden bat leagues for adult fast pitch baseball that are out there...  I know a few guys that play in them.  That's why college power w/aluminum bats doesn't always translate into pro power with wooden. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: avabob on May 15, 2012, 10:23:52 AM
I understand what you say and agree from my own perspective.  However, bowling cannot survive as a sport without a recreational side any more than golf could.   Truly competitve sport bowling is a niche in the overall business of bowling, just as competitive golf tournaments are a niche in the golf industry. 

We finally have the technology to provide a competitive scoring environment in bowling, but the balls are destroying that environment faster than should happen.  Not unlike allowing football spikes to be worn by golfers on the greens.  That is where some progress needs to be made.   
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 15, 2012, 12:26:29 PM
Unfortunately the only suggestion I have requires money. The only choice I see is every Bowling Center that has sanction leagues, the following would need to occur.  Very similiar to SPORT bowling.

1. If the center has sanction leagues and tournaments. They are required to have a device that would rate oil patterns on the lanes. Imagine if the USBC would have provided loans to centers to get these devices out to the bowling centers, instead of dumping their money into that facility in Texas. Does anyone know what the price of these machines are?

2. Oil must be placed down before sanction leagues. The check would be done prior to the league bowling (Random lanes each week). It would be done by members of the league. Every league would have a committee to check the oil patterns. This is the sanction league members doing their part.

If there are two leagues back to back then the checking of the lanes in the first set should suffice. A special note should be placed for the second shift league, that it is bowling on a second shift.

3.  The oil pattern rating system will be developed by USBC. Any honor scores bowled will be categorized appropriately. All leagues would be aware the oil pattern rating before throwing that night. See instead of the condition placed down to meet Sport Bowling requirements, it would just be rated appropriately. 

4. If a center and league chooses not to do this. They can get all benefits the USBC has. Any honor scores and awards would be catergorized in the category Non Rated. 

Bascially if you want to be recognized for the honor scores you throw, the USBC will recognize it based on the pattern you throw it on.

You throw 50 300 games on easy conditions. You will be recognized for it, but it won't be seen as an equivalent to someone throw 4 on a tougher pattern.


Now for Tournaments:

1. The tournament director would be require to have the oil pattern rated before bowling. If the pattern cannot be rated (monitored) then any honor scores or awards will be recognized as NON Rated.   

2. All games bowled in tournament would be sent to USBC database for Tournament Averages. To establish a Tournament average it would be based on 18 games.

3. Entering averages would be based on highest average from league or tournament past three years. Remember its going to be based on the rated patterns. If a bowler has a NON RATED average. Unfortunately their average would have to be adjusted (pins added) or they cannot participate.

The USBC has to take charge on this matter. They need get going with this. The technology to read oil patterns is available. They are the keepers of the SPORT of BOWLING. Just like in any other sport, integrity must be kept, and that should be the USBC's job.  Lets get things going in the other direction.


What can we do as bowlers? Promote the tough conditions. State we want them. It might be harsh words to those that bowl on SSC (I like it!), but its time we get them out of the dark. Until we do, things will never change.
 

I still prefer taking the ball out of the equation, but regulating and rating the oil pattern is probably the best option we have today.

I for one will be promoting a SPORT LEAGUE next year. It might not be sanctioned, but it is a start.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 15, 2012, 01:32:49 PM
First off, I never even implied that we should get rid of the recreational side of bowling. To do so would be stupid.

What I did say was to make some separation between house shots and sport shots. I mention to take away sanctioning for the non compliant shots. If you're there to just toss back a few brews with bros, and bowl, go ahead. There isn't anything wrong with that. Make them as stupid easy as you want.

But call it what it is. Designate it as it really is. Lower skill bowling. Paramount to playing underhand softball with a beach ball or playing darts with a bulls eye 10 times larger. To average on the tougher shot what you average on the easy shot would take...

Ready for it?

Work.

But you expect it to come easy. You somehow deserve your 200 average... in your own head. Because the conditions you bowl on, the equipment you use, and the scores that are had because of them have lied to you. It's not your fault.

But it IS time to wake up.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 15, 2012, 02:25:10 PM
ID,

You are right on. It's time to wake up!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 15, 2012, 02:44:37 PM
How much of what Bill Taylor says is inaccurate?  I say not much.

How would the new phenoms do with rubber on similar conditions and with wooden pins?  That would be nice to see.

How would you do with rubber on similar conditions with wood pins?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 15, 2012, 11:08:40 PM
Wow.. I'm a sage now! Bonus!

Every league bowler that won't test themselves because they really think that they are 200 average says it.

Oh, sad panda. I'm a dimwit. Internet words hurt me so much. Boo hoo.

This is another beautiful little nugget from the sage himself Impending Doom:

(But you expect it to come easy. You somehow deserve your 200 average... in your own head. Because the conditions you bowl on, the equipment you use, and the scores that are had because of them have lied to you. It's not your fault.)


Who the f#*k is saying this, you dimwit?

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 15, 2012, 11:15:50 PM
Ok, league update number 2.

Went 168, 203, 157, 212 for 740. Averaged 185. Up 46 pins a game from the week prior. Keeping up with the transition was a pain in the rump, and I didn't make my moves fast enough. Did improve on my spare shooting though!

The challenge was awesome. I am really enjoying my experience.

And as for you, Tony...

I feel really sorry for you.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 16, 2012, 12:04:22 AM
Why do you feel sorry for me? I don't bowl on some super soft condition. I just don't see why you care if anyone does. You should bowl on what ever you want and let others do the same. But the Democrat in you keeps wanting to tell others what is best for them. I just say so what? Let everyone bowl on whatever they please and makes them happy. You want to regulate everyone and if it doesn't happen, pee your pants as you whine about it! If you can't downgrade their accomplishments by god, then there's something wrong with the system.

As I said before, soft conditions have been around forever. This isn't something new except to you. Now run along and impress yourself next week in your sports shot league because the people that don't, could care less!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 16, 2012, 12:08:53 AM
And again... I feel sorry for you.

If you don't know why, maybe I'm not the idiot.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 16, 2012, 12:13:39 AM
Don't worry about it, YOU ARE!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 16, 2012, 08:15:23 AM
Hasn't it been argued that one of the reasons bowling is suffering is because it is losing its "sport" aspect?  Don't people complain that if they can bowl the same scores as the pros during Rock-'n-Bowl that the game isn't worth investing their time?

I agree bowlers should be allowed to bowl on what they want.  But in order to get integrity in the "sport" of bowling, something needs to be done.  Does that mean we have to bowl on sport compliant shots?  I don't think so, but the shot should be a little more difficult.  If you want to play the "game" of bowling, then bowl on whatever you want.  But I feel USBC should differentiate between the two.  If USBC can have two divisions, why not a third in between the "game" of bowling and the Pro level "sport" bowling?

If your shot is 40 units in the middle and 4 units outside, the ratio is 10:1.  By just increasing the oil outside to 8 the ratio becomes 5:1.  Does it have to be this dramatic, no. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 16, 2012, 08:57:55 AM
Based on my Local Association, most leagues would not want a tougher shot. They like it just the way it is. High Scores equals fun. Most bowlers don't practice, and when they do come to the lanes for open play, they bowl just like they do in league. They like bowling high scores. They do not want to change and they do not want the challenge. 

The bowling centers place the oil patterns that best suits their customers and I don't blame them. Obviously the USBC can't control this, they are trying with Sport Bowling and I think there's a place for Sport Bowling, its' just not for everyone.

So let the center put down what ever they want, and monitor it that way. Let the bowlers see what they are bowling on. Inform them its an easy shot. When you have facts in front of you, it can't be argued.

A rating system could easily be developed. Even if my idea is too far down the road (monitoring the lanes every night), lets take baby steps. Start with the required yearly inspection and base it off that. Then do it twice a year. Then 3 times. Get it down to once a month (maybe that's enough).

Golf courses are rated why can't a set of lanes be the same way. Oil Patterns on those lanes would be the equivalent of playing from the Red, Yellow, White, and Blue Tees.

Kegel Patterns got it right. Maybe you have three categories. Recreation, Challenge, and Sport. You throw a 300 game on a Recreational Pattern its not the same as one on a Sport Pattern. Just call it what it is, instead of stating everything is equal.

http://www.kegel.net/patternlibrary/kegel-navigation-patterns.htm
 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TheGame300 on May 16, 2012, 09:43:24 AM
I like this post.  Well said.

Based on my Local Association, most leagues would not want a tougher shot. They like it just the way it is. High Scores equals fun. Most bowlers don't practice, and when they do come to the lanes for open play, they bowl just like they do in league. They like bowling high scores. They do not want to change and they do not want the challenge. 

The bowling centers place the oil patterns that best suits their customers and I don't blame them. Obviously the USBC can't control this, they are trying with Sport Bowling and I think there's a place for Sport Bowling, its' just not for everyone.

So let the center put down what ever they want, and monitor it that way. Let the bowlers see what they are bowling on. Inform them its an easy shot. When you have facts in front of you, it can't be argued.

A rating system could easily be developed. Even if my idea is too far down the road (monitoring the lanes every night), lets take baby steps. Start with the required yearly inspection and base it off that. Then do it twice a year. Then 3 times. Get it down to once a month (maybe that's enough).

Golf courses are rated why can't a set of lanes be the same way. Oil Patterns on those lanes would be the equivalent of playing from the Red, Yellow, White, and Blue Tees.

Kegel Patterns got it right. Maybe you have three categories. Recreation, Challenge, and Sport. You throw a 300 game on a Recreational Pattern its not the same as one on a Sport Pattern. Just call it what it is, instead of stating everything is equal.

http://www.kegel.net/patternlibrary/kegel-navigation-patterns.htm
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: gandalf2hands on May 16, 2012, 10:42:41 PM
Impending Doom says "But call it what it is. Designate it as it really is. Lower skill bowling"..
With that attitude, do u actually want league bowling to die!! Seriously, what is the percentage of league bowlers v sports house bowlers?? Betting rather low..

You are lucky to have your sports shot option, others aren't so stop paying out on them, me included whether u are aware of this or not!

I cannot see my center putting out a "sports" shot now, or in the future, we do have too many cry babies who ave over 200, there can be no argument there. But not all of us, are like that!! You must stop generalizing about the vast majority of bowlers..

If we had a governing body, where on beginning of any league night, one member (perhaps a presients role on a league, a mandatory rule)of association verifies the oiling patterns used so it is in compliance with the new "tougher" more truer house shot then great..This is done in every center, then watch the top end come down... Yes, can't see it happening at all.. Every center has to follow this for any score to be sanctioned and put up on USBC honour pages... Far fetched I know... Problem is to get EVERY center in agreement, but your agenda Impending Doom isn't the center owners agenda... They can't lose bowlers in general, and certainly don't wish to lose them to softer house shot centers..

What is the answer? I don't have one!!

I like the idea of the colour codes, but haven't seen it in being used..

I prefer the idea that for any center to be sanctioned they must run at least 1 sports league. Thats right not the league to be sanctioned, but the center, every bowler will blow plenty of steam up every center owner for it's center to gain admission into center sanctioning, for their scores to be on USBC honour pages..Even making the league a cheaper or fortnightly league, the center have to real work at getting even a small group of bowlers wanting the challenge.. In a center with say 500 bowlers, to grab even a poultry 10 bowlers to bowl a sports league , 3 games for $15 20 week season, every fortnight, doesn't seem to difficult.. The big house dogs want their honour scores and names in print, so this is a way (and also for intermediate bowlers looking at further improvement) for them and offer everybody the chance of bowling on something harder. Just my 2c.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 16, 2012, 10:57:33 PM
Since most that post on here aren't old enough to have bowled in the 60s-70s or 80s then you can't speak from experience. But, for those that have, I wonder why those era were considered to have more integrity when there were soft conditions during those decades also? Did they need a rating system then? Why do you guys care so much about anybody bowling on these soft shots today? What about that gravels you so much? Have you nothing else to worry about? How about just worrying about your own game? Impending Doom and Gloom doesn't have the cajones to answer why it all bothers him so much and why he just can't do his own thing. The rest of you snobby complainers maybe should elaborate on why you care so much about these soft shot warriors. How do they affect your own personal game? Inquiring minds would like to know how they are ruining your enjoyment?

Everyone with half a brain knowsthat soft conditions are not the reason bowling is on the decline. The reasons have been posted over and over and most have nothing to do directly with the game itself. Come on, get over it and just go bowl for your own pleasure!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: batbowler on May 17, 2012, 12:14:39 AM
I started bowling in the 60's and know what you're talking about on lane conditions! I started working for my uncle's center in 78 and the shot was the pretty much the same as today's condition. The shot was a 10 board shot and the lane machine was the top on the market. I even ran a 16 lane center for him and I did the lanes with an old Roto-Buff for those that remember that beast!!! You had a pad that fit on a rotating blade similar to a lawn mower and it had a spray nozzle on the front that would spray the oil and the rotating pad would spread the oil as you walked down the lane. Yes you controlled where the oil went buy cutting the pad the length you wanted. The biggest difference is the bowling ball technology from back in the 60's and 70's was you used either a soft rubber or soft polyester ball. You usually only went to the center with two balls and some only one! One ball that hooked more and one for spares or dry lanes. The lanes were all wood and you actually had to have somebody keep score with the yellow telescore pencil and the score was projected onto a screen above the approach! We started to put automatic scoring in the 80's and everybody loved it, except for the people that went in to get a few dollars to keep score for the guys that wanted to drink and not be bothered with scorekeeping!!! lol The shots haven't evolved, but the bowling balls have!!! Just my $.02, Bruce
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 17, 2012, 12:28:47 AM
Good post. Yep, I remember the old Roto-Buffs, they were something. When I started taking care of the lanes we used the fly sprayer method. Messy, but you could put down a pretty nice shot if you so desired. Balls are the difference. I think of how hard we thought the original white dot hit and now that would compare to a marshmellow shot. it was considered soft compared to rubber. Ah, the good old days?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: MI 2 AZ on May 17, 2012, 01:22:52 AM
Roto-Buff - Was that the one that was either a light blue or green colour and looked like an overgrown floor buffer?  I remember the center I was working at getting one around 1970 but I never used it much as I was mostly working the counter by then.  I did use the old bug sprayer earlier to apply oil.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: gandalf2hands on May 17, 2012, 04:02:38 AM
TDC57, your last paragraph rings so , so true!!!

The same disucussions/arguments have been going around bowling forums for years now, people still blindly think that its the THS's fault! Stupifying really!

The only way to change the THS, is for every center to agree on an exact pattern (oil ration/length etc), that won't happen... One thing I do see is that the 200 plus bowler does feel a certain entitlement to score well, thats not just the lane preparation, but also the range of atomic balls that we bowlers get to use..You can't change to keep the bowling elitists happy to then ruin league bowling for the remaining millions USBC league bowlers.It makes no sense at all.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 17, 2012, 07:34:40 AM
In reply to those wandering why I care, I care because the writing on the wall says there may be limited competitive bowling in the future.  I'm not saying leagues will disappear, but the access to leagues may.  I am lucky where I live in a big city with several bowling centers.  But there have also been many closing in the past 10 years as with most cities.  The PBA is on its last leg.  League membership is dwindling.  Regionals are too expensive.  No one wants to bowl scratch let alone on more difficult shots.  So to say let bowlers bowl on what they want, well, not all can.

I agree, getting anything done is near impossible.  But what is being done now isn't working.  Leagues aren't growing.  True competitive bowling is dying.  It has become a "game" instead of a "sport".  Is it the THS, some blame is there.  Is it the equipment, yes, some blame there also.  But irregardless of what the reason is, sitting idly by and not doing anything and leaving everything status quo isn't helping. 

I have been bowling many years and I remember how the shots used to be.  The mindset was different back then.  If you averaged 200, you were good.  Maybe the shot was more important than the equipment.  Now perhaps the equipment is more important.  But something has to be done before the main topic on this site is how loud should the music be when we bowl?  Why are pizzas so expensive?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: gandalf2hands on May 17, 2012, 08:05:51 AM
Hey spmcgivern, like your thoughts here...

So what does bowling do? I don't know, I suggested something earlier, but that really is only for existing bowlers and something that may never happen...

If bowling continues it's steady demise in terms of league bowling, which seems to be the foundation of all bowling, then I am extremely worried. League bowling is where the better bowlers learn and improve, eventually the small group of those may try sports leagues/pba leagues whatever, and within that small group another smaller group will try regionals.. Now out of that very,very small group of bowlers who participate in regionals, a very small (almost minute) group will go PBA..

Basically it's a pyramid, just like in any business, be it small or large.. There is a structure and chain... So, with bowling, if we can agree that it begins with the big wide base of support then where is bowling going. The base is getting smaller!! The reasons for this are too numerous to go into, but suffice to say it is NOT down to the THS shot being too easy.

I remember watching "A League of Gentlemen" bowling doco, and the new head guy, some ex football guy (name has escaped me), but he was involved with Nike before, mentioned that bowlings perception is poor! It is seen as "low brow" entertainment for the beer swilling locals, more or less..

It seems to struggle for time slots on ESPN, whether its in direct competition to Mon football or what have you... The sport need investment, but where do they get it from. Xtra frame is great, but most league bowlers aren't even interested.. How do u get sponsors into this sport, when they reserch their possible investment, and all the numbers are saying the same thing, DECLINE.. Their products aren't being shown on free to air TV also cannot help.. Man, I do not know where this sport wil eventually go.. I am guesing that it will end up being simply individual tournaments throughout USA, with the majors as standouts hopefully continuing.

Some sports are destined to survive, great product, pro tours, generous TV deals,heavily participated sport at junior levels.. With bowling, it too ticks most of the boxes here, but has missed the opportunity somewhere along the line in changing how its run at the local level to keep the numbers up.. Social economic factors are major contributors in this, but bowlings 40 weeks seasons, internet, facebook , I phones and an apathetic society don't help the cause.
Would anyone like to offer some alternate views or thoughts on this?

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 17, 2012, 08:32:25 AM
I agree it is a perception issue.  The PBA should inspire non-competitive bowlers to become competitive.  Unfortunately, you have pros scoring lower than what the casual, potentially new bowler does during Rock and Bowl.  That same new bowler thinks the sport isn't worth his time because the pros aren't good and he could beat them.  What the new bowler doesn't understand is the difficulty involved in the SHOT the pro is bowling on.

High School bowling is on the rise.  More and more schools are adopting the sport under UIL.  Young bowlers want to bowl on demanding conditions.  They don't have to be sport compliant, but they understand the difference between their Saturday morning league and their High School competitions.  The minute high school bowling is done, they either go to college and bowl or move on to normal adult leagues.  College bowls on difficult patterns.  It is mandated!  Normal adult leagues bowl on easier shots where practice isn't necessarily required.  The sport of bowling has become a game at that point.  And the once competitive high school bowler is now bored with bowling and slowly fades away. 

As with any activity that wants to continue, we must start with the youth.  The youth bowler has already shown a desire to compete on more difficult shots and the numbers show POSITIVE GROWTH.  To give up on what high school bowling and youth bowling in general has accomplished, just to let bowlers drink beer and be happy with whatever they bowl, is not the path I want the sport of bowling to go down.  We are taking ideas that are successful and ignoring them.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: avabob on May 17, 2012, 10:10:58 AM
Actually, if you averge 200 on a house shot, you are a 200 average bowler----on a house shot.  I know a lot of guys who average very high in league, but few of them are under any illusion about their abilities on a variety of conditions.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 17, 2012, 11:57:17 AM
As with any activity that wants to continue, we must start with the youth.  The youth bowler has already shown a desire to compete on more difficult shots and the numbers show POSITIVE GROWTH. 

So true and you see the difference in those kids perspective about bowling as a sport, but the issue I see is that not every youth program bowls on the tougher patterns. So you have some demanding the tough condition and others that have no idea what you are talking about. Shouldn't there be some kind of standard?
 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Steven on May 17, 2012, 12:24:04 PM
A big plus 100.....
 
To Bob's point, (in general), the higher the THS average, the more awareness of true ability you'll see. For instance, my scratch league has the largest group of self-depreciating behavior you'll see on any lanes. Most of these guys know exactly why they leave a 10 pin, a 7 pin, or otherwise throw less than a perfect shot. Most of all, they understand the nature of a THS and why they're not on the PBA tour.
 
 
Actually, if you averge 200 on a house shot, you are a 200 average bowler----on a house shot.  I know a lot of guys who average very high in league, but few of them are under any illusion about their abilities on a variety of conditions.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 17, 2012, 01:16:08 PM
In 2006-07, there were 27,834 registered Sport Memberships in USBC.  During that same time, there were 45,064 registered high school bowlers.  And high school bowling was only in 19 states.  And the two largest states in terms of population weren't included.  There are almost twice as many kids willing to compete on more demanding conditions than there are adults.  And if you want to look at it in a percentage aspect, I guarantee the difference is even more telling.

The youth are the adult bowlers of the future.  They see the difference between bowling on easy and bowling on difficult.  Why are we halting this growth by ignoring what is happening now with retaining bowlers?  Youth membership is growing and yet adult membership is falling.  That tells me there is a problem with the way the two divisions are run. 

I understand not every youth bowler wants to bowl on difficult shots; just the same as not every adult wants to either.  I am not saying get rid of the easy house shot.  I am saying there has to be a change.  Providing and standardizing a more competitive and demanding environment is what is growing the sport in the youth.  Why aren't we trying to implement the same in the adult division?  If it is because of the fear of losing membership, it's too late. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 17, 2012, 01:37:33 PM
I understand not every youth bowler wants to bowl on difficult shots; just the same as not every adult wants to either.  I am not saying get rid of the easy house shot.  I am saying there has to be a change.  Providing and standardizing a more competitive and demanding environment is what is growing the sport in the youth.  Why aren't we trying to implement the same in the adult division?  If it is because of the fear of losing membership, it's too late. 

I agree with you completely.

Quote
Why aren't we trying to implement the same in the adult division?

I would like to see responses on this question?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 17, 2012, 03:50:10 PM
I bowl in a league where the shot yields some high scores and have some guys who average higher than they should but I guess we're lucky because I just don't hear any of them bragging or saying they could beat any pro bowler. They know that's not true. I started as a right handed bowler and carried solid averages in the rubber, plastic and urethane eras. As resin came in, I suffered a rotator cuff injury that decimated my game. I found no reason to spend money having surgery on something that if I quit playing softball or bowling right handed didn't bother me. I switched to left handed and spent many years trying to get some kind of timing and game that I could become successful (in my mind) again. I'm up to the high 190s and know I do not possess a game that could compete with better bowlers on tough conditions but I do all right on most. I practice a lot and understand the game pretty well and better than many that average higher than me in my league. That they average higher than doesn't bother me in the least because I have out-bowled many of these guys on tougher shots. I don't worry about them at all. They have fun in our league which is very competitive. I don't agree that competition is lacking because of the THS.

I used to bowl in another city for about 30 years. The shot was usually terrible. We complained every night how the fun was being taken out of our bowling. I finally left for where I am now and go back occasionally and visit my buddies in my old league. They still complain about the same things as we always did. Nothing has changed except their league went from 16 to 12 to 10 to 8 teams. They struggle every year to keep that many. We have people waiting to get into our league at my current house. They are not bowling on a sport shot, just a bad shot. I don't believe for a minute that tougher shots will grow the game. Anyone that does is delusional. I believe the shot should be fairly scoreable but only if you can repeat good shots as the lanes transition. Nothing should be a cakewalk. But, that's a big difference from having to put out sport shots to take these "fakers" down a peg as many on there think needs to be done. If you complain about some undeserving guys getting scores that they shouldn't, "YOU" are the problem not the lanes.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Juggernaut on May 17, 2012, 04:15:46 PM
 Like I stated earlier, and have often said before, it isn't the SHOT that needs to be changed, because the easy THS has ALWAYS existed.

 What has changed is the equipment, namely and foremostly, the bowling ball. The new reactive covers and dynamic weightblocks have allowed balls to create far too much friction, allowing even those with weak, or even downright poor, release characteristics to get a ball into a pin crushing roll. This, more than anything else, is what has created the modern scoring boom.

 I have no malice for any bowler. Heck, they are only using the LEGAL equipment that their governing body has allowed into the game, and that is not THEIR fault, but the fault of those who should've known better.

 The game now is what it is, and I don't see it going backwards anytime soon, but nothing is wrong with wishing.

 Everything I have ever said on here, I have said after much consideration, but also with much conviction. I don't lie, or make up stuff to make myself seem smarter than I really am, so please don't take what I say lightly. I really feel it has much truth to it.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 17, 2012, 04:41:00 PM
I believe the shot should be fairly scoreable but only if you can repeat good shots as the lanes transition. Nothing should be a cakewalk. But, that's a big difference from having to put out sport shots to take these "fakers" down a peg as many on there think needs to be done.

Good response TDC57. My stance on this issue is extreme (What I really like to see), but I know my ideas on this are not going to happen. I agree with you statements.  And my reasons on this is not about taking "fakers" down a peg. It's throwing a challenge out to everyone (high, mid, and low average bowlers) in bowling. 

Here's another question: What's your opinion about bowling records, should today's scores and series be compared to those in the past.  Which achievement do you think was more difficult to do, someone who threw an 800 series last week or someone who threw one back in 1980?

Do the bowling records of today equal to those of the past?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 17, 2012, 05:59:55 PM
Do baseball records of past get compared to those of today?  Football?  Basketball?  C'mon.  You can argue records until you're blue in the face. 

The facts are that scoring environment is the same for everybody.  Everybody has the same lanes, the same balls, the same patterns available to them.  Why does this discussion keep on lurching along?  The casual bowler doesn't know or care about tougher shots.  The better bowlers as has been stated in some replies realize what they're bowling on and take their high scores with a grain of salt.  The bowlers who bowl on the harder patterns know what they are bowling on also.

This whole argument springs from some bowlers feeling the need to justify themselves and what they bowl on.  They want scoff at the scores at a THS, yet they complain about low scores on sport shots.  I suggest that you should be happy in knowing how skilled you are or not, realize that there are different levels of shots available, and there is no dearth of capable coaches waiting for those who wish to go to the next skill level.  At the same time I suggest you don't worry one bit about what somebody else is doing.  There is no defense in bowling, only offense.     
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 17, 2012, 11:39:29 PM
I hate voices of reason. ;D Great post!!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 18, 2012, 07:11:03 AM
Do baseball records of past get compared to those of today?  Football?  Basketball?  C'mon.  You can argue records until you're blue in the face. 

Then your answer to my question is they are same. It is just as difficult today to throw an 800 series as it was back in 1980.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 18, 2012, 07:26:05 AM
Tony, what is your malfunction? Do you feel that in your advanced age, with all of your accomplishments, that you don't need to be challenged anymore?

It's people like you that are killing the sport that is the game you play.

We keep making the shots easier and the balls stronger, and membership keeps going down. So, keep them easy and what? Change all the equipment overnight? That wouldn't work.

Some more sage advice from me coming up. Pay attention and write this down, because I think you may have short term memory loss.

Equipment is a problem. Never said that it wasn't. I even mentioned that in my original post. The manufactorers have even planned for their balls to wear out faster. It's called planned obsolescence. Make that work in our favor. Next year, make the max diff go from .060 to .040. Get some control of Ra values. Change what the max and min RG values can be.

2 out of the 3 of these things have happened in the last 10 years, btw.

The thing that CAN be changed right away is the condition. Make them tougher gradually, so old men like you can keep up.

The condition is key. Why aren't people shooting 2400 all over the place at Nationals? Can't be the condition, right? Scores are up, yes, but that does go hand in hand with equipment. But, YOU STILL HAVE TO THROW THE BALL CORRECTLY AND WELL.

So you say you bowl at a brickhouse. That's open to judgement. Maybe your skills are just failing in your old age, and since you can't accept getting old, you want to not make any more work for yourself.

Fine. But your gravy train stops here. Let the little old ladies that you bowl with in your league make you some patches for your scores. Quit paying into the sanctioning pool and taking money for awards.

So, let me recap, once again, for those of us (Tony) who can't remember what I said.

Keep the house shot. Call it what it is. Hell, ask the owner to make them easier. Don't expect to get any awards or sanctioning. If you throw a 300 or 800 while on your cake walk, while you spraying the ball all over the place, have the bar wench give you a free Schlitz. Maybe a kiss on the cheek too.

Let the people that work for honor scores, as opposed to not working for them, get rewarded.

Start to scale down the equipment specs every year, so that when you go to buy the new ball, it's not as strong as your last one.

Let there be some honor in being in a league nowadays, as opposed to watching everyone shoot the lights out all over the house.

Let the best athlete win, not the best chucker.

But Tony, you're not an athlete... anymore. You're just a sad old man.

(http://www.gozejitsu.com/storage/look-a-likes/up_carl_fredricksen_600.jpeg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1289202701297)

Go fly your house to Paradise Falls, why dontcha.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: pin-chaser on May 18, 2012, 09:22:55 AM
Lets be honest here....
1. Artificially guiding the bowling ball toward the pocket (THS) is cheating period. SO if you are bowling on THS then you are getting a lot of help hitting the pocket. Bowling is what it is today and has been since I got serious in the late 70's.
2. Todays bowling balls are explosive devices when used properly. This is also cheating at least in comparison to previous era's (the prior to the mid to late 70's).
3. Cheating has played a role in this sport since its inception to some degree or another. But never in the history has it been so prevalent and so easy.
4. New bowlers (prior to the advent of flairing technology ... ie ~1991) can not fathom what bowling was... just as I can not fathom what bowling was prior to the advent of plastic in the early 1970's. With each new technology bowling and scoring has been increasingly easier.

The point trying to be made here is what should bowling be? Should it be to allow the most people the opportunity to shoot 300/900? Or should it be that a 300 is the ultimate reward for years of dedication to the sport.  I can cite the facts about scoring records being broken and set. But its about integrity.

In my humble opinion... everything should be about personal physical skill if it is a sport. Bowling is far from a sport today... it might have been a sport in the 50's/60's or earlier but not anymore.

The cheating is out of control... top heavy light pins, THS (lane machines), Bowling balls, arrows down lane, plastic lane surface (synthetic lane surfaces) all together make the game what it is today. The glory of bowling in the late 70's was.... plastic or rubber bowling balls, the man with hand air sprayed oil gun, wood lanes (each lane playing differently), non double voided pins (making them not top heavy), targets at only the arrows... now tell me that 300 games mean the same thing between today and then. And then dont forget this is only in my life... imagine Allie Brant 886... in 1929... mineralite bowling ball with 2 fingers holes, shellac lane surface ... non voided pins, no oil at all.... come on... Lets create some respect in this sport!!!




Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 18, 2012, 09:48:53 AM
Lets be honest here....
1. Artificially guiding the bowling ball toward the pocket (THS) is cheating period. SO if you are bowling on THS then you are getting a lot of help hitting the pocket. Bowling is what it is today and has been since I got serious in the late 70's.
2. Todays bowling balls are explosive devices when used properly. This is also cheating at least in comparison to previous era's (the prior to the mid to late 70's).
3. Cheating has played a role in this sport since its inception to some degree or another. But never in the history has it been so prevalent and so easy.
4. New bowlers (prior to the advent of flairing technology ... ie ~1991) can not fathom what bowling was... just as I can not fathom what bowling was prior to the advent of plastic in the early 1970's. With each new technology bowling and scoring has been increasingly easier.

The point trying to be made here is what should bowling be? Should it be to allow the most people the opportunity to shoot 300/900? Or should it be that a 300 is the ultimate reward for years of dedication to the sport.  I can cite the facts about scoring records being broken and set. But its about integrity.

In my humble opinion... everything should be about personal physical skill if it is a sport. Bowling is far from a sport today... it might have been a sport in the 50's/60's or earlier but not anymore.

The cheating is out of control... top heavy light pins, THS (lane machines), Bowling balls, arrows down lane, plastic lane surface (synthetic lane surfaces) all together make the game what it is today. The glory of bowling in the late 70's was.... plastic or rubber bowling balls, the man with hand air sprayed oil gun, wood lanes (each lane playing differently), non double voided pins (making them not top heavy), targets at only the arrows... now tell me that 300 games mean the same thing between today and then. And then dont forget this is only in my life... imagine Allie Brant 886... in 1929... mineralite bowling ball with 2 fingers holes, shellac lane surface ... non voided pins, no oil at all.... come on... Lets create some respect in this sport!!!

I am sorry but what you call "glory days" was proprietors and bowlers simply using the best technology of the day.  Just like proprietors and bowlers do today.  To call it "cheating" is erroneous and totally out of line. 

Here's an idea.  You'll make a million dollars a year off of this, guaranteed.  Open a 80 lane bowling center and dress your lanes with a flit gun, ban all bowling balls but hard rubber or plastic, and put your old style pins on the decks.  With all of the people clamoring for the conditions of yore, your lanes should be full of league bowlers every night reveling in the absolute joy the old technology brings to the sport. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: batbowler on May 18, 2012, 10:53:37 AM
Pins are actually heavier today than they were back in the late 70's early 80's! The pins back then were 3lb 2oz pin or as we called them, the 3-2's!!! The pins now are least 3lb 6oz and some places are heavier! I shot a 299 and 300 on wood lanes that were oiled with a bug sprayer and wiped with a mop! Things evolve in every sport not just bowling!! Golf has better clubs and balls from back in the day so does a victory mean less in golf?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 18, 2012, 10:59:09 AM
Ok, I am not a golfer (Son in law is, though), but I would probably equate the conditions with making the cup 8 times bigger and slant the ground inward towards the cup. Would a hole in one mean as much then? I mean, all you have to do is get it in the general vicinity, right?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Steven on May 18, 2012, 11:01:21 AM
In an LGD kind way, he hit the nail on the head. But I'm going to restate things in a slightly different way.
 
It doesn't matter what anyone thinks about the THS or what they "think" conditions should be. Bowling centers are privately owned, and the owners will do whatever they feel necessary to turn a profit. Period. In an era where most of their serious revenue comes from food, beverages, mixed handicap adult leagues, and weekend parties, they're going to do everything possible to generate repeat customers. And most house owners believe making conditions 'easy' is part of that. You can cry until the cows come home, but this is the reality of what we're up against.
 
So what's the answer? Do everything you can to support sport shot leagues when they are offered. Owners recognize bowling head count numbers, so get active and recruit others. This is the only way to prove that it makes sense to offer more of these leagues and keep serious bowling going.
 
If you don't do this, threads like this will continue to be little more than insignificant noise.   
 
I am sorry but what you call "glory days" was proprietors and bowlers simply using the best technology of the day.  Just like proprietors and bowlers do today.  To call it "cheating" is erroneous and totally out of line. 

Here's an idea.  You'll make a million dollars a year off of this, guaranteed.  Open a 80 lane bowling center and dress your lanes with a flit gun, ban all bowling balls but hard rubber or plastic, and put your old style pins on the decks.  With all of the people clamoring for the conditions of yore, your lanes should be full of league bowlers every night reveling in the absolute joy the old technology brings to the sport.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: txbowler on May 18, 2012, 11:49:04 AM
Less than 5% of the sanctioned bowlers bowl a 300 ever, let alone every year.

The elite of the sanctioned bowlers are less than 20%.

But yet, you want to drive away the majority of bowlers with harder conditions.

Just so "YOUR EGO" can be satisfied and recognized as a good bowler.

If you are a good bowler, you know it.

If some else thinks they are a good bowler, but in your opinion they are just simply mastering the THS....SO FREAKING WHAT? 

Does it matter that you split boards and someone else splits arrows.

Oh, I think I have it figured out. 

YOUR EGO WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO LOSE TO WHAT YOU THINK IS AN INFERIOR BOWLER.

Grow up. 



Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 18, 2012, 12:21:08 PM
Less than 5% of the sanctioned bowlers bowl a 300 ever, let alone every year.

The elite of the sanctioned bowlers are less than 20%.

But yet, you want to drive away the majority of bowlers with harder conditions.

Just so "YOUR EGO" can be satisfied and recognized as a good bowler.

If you are a good bowler, you know it.

If some else thinks they are a good bowler, but in your opinion they are just simply mastering the THS....SO FREAKING WHAT? 

Does it matter that you split boards and someone else splits arrows.

Oh, I think I have it figured out. 

YOUR EGO WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO LOSE TO WHAT YOU THINK IS AN INFERIOR BOWLER.

Grow up. 


It is more than that. You know it. It's about bringing everyone down to reality. We are past the days of splitting boards (of course I would love to see it again) . We just can't go back. It's the idea of missing way right and the ball still hits the pocket and strikes. It's about pulling the ball so bad that it still stays in the oil hits the pocket and strikes.  Shouldn't there be some outbounds for these types of shots, why should you be rewarded for going off target. No other sport has this.

In Golf they don't have a club that would correct a poorly sliced shot. There have been some improvements, but overall if your swing is bad, your ball is not going towards the pin.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: ccrider on May 18, 2012, 12:28:28 PM
In an LGD kind way, he hit the nail on the head. But I'm going to restate things in a slightly different way.
 
Someone enlighten me, what does "LGD" mean?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 18, 2012, 12:33:23 PM
Long gone daddy

In an LGD kind way, he hit the nail on the head. But I'm going to restate things in a slightly different way.
 
Someone enlighten me, what does "LGD" mean?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 18, 2012, 12:55:54 PM
Less than 5% of the sanctioned bowlers bowl a 300 ever, let alone every year.

The elite of the sanctioned bowlers are less than 20%.

But yet, you want to drive away the majority of bowlers with harder conditions.

Just so "YOUR EGO" can be satisfied and recognized as a good bowler.

If you are a good bowler, you know it.

If some else thinks they are a good bowler, but in your opinion they are just simply mastering the THS....SO FREAKING WHAT? 

Does it matter that you split boards and someone else splits arrows.

Oh, I think I have it figured out. 

YOUR EGO WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO LOSE TO WHAT YOU THINK IS AN INFERIOR BOWLER.

Grow up. 


It is more than that. You know it. It's about bringing everyone down to reality. We are past the days of splitting boards (of course I would love to see it again) . We just can't go back. It's the idea of missing way right and the ball still hits the pocket and strikes. It's about pulling the ball so bad that it still stays in the oil hits the pocket and strikes.  Shouldn't there be some outbounds for these types of shots, why should you be rewarded for going off target. No other sport has this.

In Golf they don't have a club that would correct a poorly sliced shot. There have been some improvements, but overall if your swing is bad, your ball is not going towards the pin.

What a horrible analogy.  60 foot lane compared to a 500 yard hole.  This is getting ludicrous.  If a golfer has the best putter in the world and doesn't know how to line up, grip the putter, stroke the ball, etc the results will be the same if a bowler has the best ball, terrible timing, swing, release, etc.  he will miss the pocket more times than not.  But of course he would hit the pocket more on a 60 foot long lane just because of the shorter distance involved than hitting a green.  How about we just stop with the ridiculous comparisons.

You guys go argue this un-winnable debate.  I've got more important things to do.  You should too. 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 18, 2012, 01:26:26 PM
Less than 5% of the sanctioned bowlers bowl a 300 ever, let alone every year.

The elite of the sanctioned bowlers are less than 20%.

But yet, you want to drive away the majority of bowlers with harder conditions.

Just so "YOUR EGO" can be satisfied and recognized as a good bowler.

If you are a good bowler, you know it.

If some else thinks they are a good bowler, but in your opinion they are just simply mastering the THS....SO FREAKING WHAT? 

Does it matter that you split boards and someone else splits arrows.

Oh, I think I have it figured out. 

YOUR EGO WILL NOT ALLOW YOU TO LOSE TO WHAT YOU THINK IS AN INFERIOR BOWLER.

Grow up. 

Excellent post. But as you've already seen since you posted it, the elitist snobs will have none of it. I'd say let's just sit back and let them ruin what's left of league bowling, but you already said it, they are the big-mouthed very small in numbers, minority. They won't and will never get their way. The USBC knows who foots the bill and "it aint them"!!!!




Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 18, 2012, 01:39:52 PM
Trash heap over the last 24 hours you have posted both of these thoughts. I guess I was right, elitists are just pissed off about guys shooting scores "they" believed are undeserved. Why do you care? Why can't you and Impending Brain Death just enjoy you're own bowling and not care about others. I've said it numerous times on this thread and I'll say it again. You guys still beat these "fakers" in league play and take all their money in tournaments because "they" are exposed there. Why the f##k do you care?


" And my reasons on this is not about taking "fakers" down a peg. It's throwing a challenge out to everyone (high, mid, and low average bowlers) in bowling."

"It is more than that. You know it. It's about bringing everyone down to reality. We are past the days of splitting boards (of course I would love to see it again) . We just can't go back. It's the idea of missing way right and the ball still hits the pocket and strikes. It's about pulling the ball so bad that it still stays in the oil hits the pocket and strikes.  Shouldn't there be some outbounds for these types of shots, why should you be rewarded for going off target. No other sport has this."

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 18, 2012, 02:06:38 PM
I don't care about others when it comes to this topic. I care about bowling.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 18, 2012, 02:08:44 PM
I agree 100%.  All the USBC has to do is make centers flatten out their patterns or they dont get certified.  Centers will have to comply unless they want to see all their league bowlers disappear.  A few may disappear anyway; but not entire leagues.  Tone the ratio down in half; say from 8:1 down to 4:1.  That way the elite stay the elite and the not so elite come back down to a reality but not so much that they will quit the game altogether. 

Trash heap over the last 24 hours you have posted both of these thoughts. I guess I was right, elitists are just pissed off about guys shooting scores "they" believed are undeserved. Why do you care? Why can't you and Impending Brain Death just enjoy you're own bowling and not care about others. I've said it numerous times on this thread and I'll say it again. You guys still beat these "fakers" in league play and take all their money in tournaments because "they" are exposed there. Why the f##k do you care?


" And my reasons on this is not about taking "fakers" down a peg. It's throwing a challenge out to everyone (high, mid, and low average bowlers) in bowling."

"It is more than that. You know it. It's about bringing everyone down to reality. We are past the days of splitting boards (of course I would love to see it again) . We just can't go back. It's the idea of missing way right and the ball still hits the pocket and strikes. It's about pulling the ball so bad that it still stays in the oil hits the pocket and strikes.  Shouldn't there be some outbounds for these types of shots, why should you be rewarded for going off target. No other sport has this."


Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 18, 2012, 02:29:24 PM
Impending brain death,

I wasn't going to respond to your unadulterated moronic rant but I will just address a couple of your idiotic points.

Yes, I can't argue I'm getting old but that age has allowed me to see things in the game you have only heard about. The place I bowl is not a brickhouse and I never said that. Your reading impediment didn't allow you to comprehend, but that's ok I still love you!

Over the past three years there were 3 300 games total, shot there. Nobody has ever shot an 800. The closest was this year when something was in the 770s. We had two guys bowl about 2/3 of the season and average 220. We had a total of 10 average over 200 out of a 16 team league. Maybe had two guys who spray the ball. Does that help you at all my brain dead buddy?

I have maintained the lanes in the city I live for 30 years. I have went through 6 ownership changes. I have seen first hand what has happened to league bowling. It's not easy conditions that sent it down the garden path. The dropoff started about 1990. Before that time bowling used to be the thing everyone did. It didn't matter if leagues were 36 weeks long, it was the only show in town for the most part outside of boy's HS sports. TV had about 8 channels if you were lucky. But, then came girl's HS sports. HD TV with hundreds of channels, fitness centers, computers offering hours of entertainment with unlimited sites to visit. Cars became far more expensive, houses did too. The cost of sending a kid to college skyrocketed. The amount of disposable income dropped with every bad economy that came along. People's lives became much more complicated with far less time to do something like bowling and many went from 3 or more nights a week of league bowling to maybe one. That's another thing, The USBC (ABC) used to count every bowler in every league as a different individual bowler, but in reality, they bowled in 2-3-4 or more leagues they were the same person just bowling in multiple leagues. They never admitted that, but that counted for a big drop in bowler's totals. Many never can understand or grasp that concept.

Those are just some of the reasons bowling is in decline. You could also add that the PBA was taken over by some who think like you and went away from the stepladder finals to other hokey formats and included outdoor bowling. It's that type of thinking that lost viewership. People who love to bowl, that never used to miss ABC Saturday afternoon bowling found other things to watch because it seemed like a circus sideshow. These PBA gurus also decided to run a plastic ball tournament. But, the kicker was they put a weight block in it and dramatically softened the shot. For what reason? It would have been too tough without doing that. See high scores sells! In other tournaments these brain surgeons also thought putting out overly tough conditions was a good idea and we started to see horrible scores shot and in one case a game of what, 99 or 100? This in turn, made these bowlers you seek to repress think they could bowl against these top caliber talents. People want good scores and want to see their pros look like pros, shooting high scores.

But you blame THS and the guys who shoot well on it. I wish I was one of those guys so I knew I was constantly under your thin skin, but, sadly I'm not! I just practice a lot, and try to maintain an average that I can be happy shooting, on a regular basis.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 18, 2012, 02:37:46 PM
So TwoHand834, you believe your elite and it is about bringing the ones you think are fakers, down a peg. Can I ask you three questions? Do you use the two hand method for bowling? Does the 834 represent a series you shot? If it does, I suppose you will tell me that was shot on this tougher condition you want so badly. You see I firmly believe 99% of the people who shoot 800 series have done it on soft conditions because there just aren't that many great bowlers out there, but one difference between myself and Impending Brain Death, I don't care that you did!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: jls on May 19, 2012, 09:36:10 AM
Today's bowling is all about ONE THING....

BEER...

If a house puts out a shot that the young guns can't score on...

BEER sales go in the toilet...

And if the young guns can't hit said shot...Well Mr 180 probably won't
either...

More BEER sales in the toilet....

Bottom line...Today's bowlers what high scores...It makes them feel good...

And when they feel good, they Drink more BEER...And that's makes them
feel even better...

And when said bowlers are feeling better...Bowling centers do more
business...Especially in the BAR...

Now the complete opposite happens in golf...

Most golfers want to always play the back tees...Even though their skill
level does not match up...

I really don't know why they subject themselves to that...

Maybe think feel that playing a course from 6800 yards as opposed to
61oo yards gives them more time to drink BEER...lol

But back to today's bowlers... They love to score...and that leads to more
BEER...

A group of my buddies are going to a bowling tournament next week...

Everyone of them is bringing their golf clubs...And 4 of them have a tee time
at the TPC course in New Orleans...

Oh, btw, yes some are bringing their bowling balls...lol ;D ;) :D
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: BrianCRX90 on May 20, 2012, 08:09:11 PM
Impending Doom you got my support. I do love sport bowling but I want USBC to succeed.
I just got back from a tough tournament, 4th time in a row at this place and heard they placed a Xmas tree pattern this time and it was hard. My team mate bitched after I went over plus....1200 and adjusted and adapted he just complained the entire time he couldn't do a "down and in shot" like our house shot.

I demand for USBC to have sanctioned shots. I've posted about this for years. Leave the crowned walled up shots to the non sanctioned drunk leagues and give the sport some legitimacy. It's pretty simple what we are paying 20 bucks for. Would be mandatory for USBC to have sanctioned shots by USBC. USBC would do random inspections on all houses during a USBC santion league or tournament. Those caught using a house shot would be fined by USBC and even banned if that's what it takes.

The league bowlers that do not approve of this can join non sanctioned leagues. It's that simple and it's time for USBC to grow a pair of balls and save this sport.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 20, 2012, 08:18:04 PM
Trash heap over the last 24 hours you have posted both of these thoughts. I guess I was right, elitists are just pissed off about guys shooting scores "they" believed are undeserved. Why do you care? Why can't you and Impending Brain Death just enjoy you're own bowling and not care about others. I've said it numerous times on this thread and I'll say it again. You guys still beat these "fakers" in league play and take all their money in tournaments because "they" are exposed there. Why the f##k do you care?


" And my reasons on this is not about taking "fakers" down a peg. It's throwing a challenge out to everyone (high, mid, and low average bowlers) in bowling."

"It is more than that. You know it. It's about bringing everyone down to reality. We are past the days of splitting boards (of course I would love to see it again) . We just can't go back. It's the idea of missing way right and the ball still hits the pocket and strikes. It's about pulling the ball so bad that it still stays in the oil hits the pocket and strikes.  Shouldn't there be some outbounds for these types of shots, why should you be rewarded for going off target. No other sport has this."

Okay TDC this not hard to figure. Let's try math:

Challenging Shots = Better Bowlers = Better Competition = Better Sport of Bowling

Is that simple enough for you.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 20, 2012, 09:55:07 PM
I am glad you asked these questions.  First off, I never have claimed to be one of the elite.  I absolutely know for a fact that I am not one of them.  Do I have talent?  Absolutely I do.  I have been doing this for 30 years and averaged almost 220 back when the Blue Hammer was the popular ball to have and was long before I started using two hands.  What alot of people dont know, is that I was "normal" for about 12-13 years before I converted over.  It wasnt something I had to do.  But, when the first impression in league is 740, well, wouldnt you have changed??  If you want to use tougher conditions as more of a basis for "true" averages, I have averaged about 210 for the 13 years bowling on the USBC Tournament conditions.  I will be the first to admit that due to lack of experience more than anything, I would come back down to earth really fast bowling on the PBA conditions.  However, I am pretty good at reading what a bowling ball is doing as it goes down the lane.  My biggest flaw, is that I dont really have the game to play in front of the ball return and only use 5-6 feet of approach and still be able to generate the ball speed nor do I have the ability to loft the ball 30 feet down the lane when the heads are completely fried. 

Do I use the two hand method?  Yes I do; have been doing it since 1994.  When I first used it, I was 20-21 mph at release.  Now that I am approaching 40 and the fact that I dont bowl half as much as I used to, my ball speed has come down; more towards 18 mph at release.  My 834 is a series and was my highest set at the time I opened this account.  Now it is 843 which I have done twice.  I have the honor scores, so they are not my biggest ambition right now.  My biggest ambition is to help others become better.  I take more pride with my 210 at the USBC than my 230 I average each year in league.  I averaged 230 this year with ZERO honor scores.  Would I like to see tougher conditions???  Sure I would.  Do I want to see conditions that will shut down the sport?  Absolutely not.  Do I think that a 175 bowler throwing a Maxim should be shooting 300?  Of course not.  It happened 2 weeks ago in my league, though.  Good for him I guess.  Another reason I want to see tougher conditions is because it will save our sport.  Averaging 230+ is simply too high.  Reason, is because those averaging 230+ have no chance in a handicap tournament.  A "scratch" bowler shoots 1900 for 9 games and he is 500 pins from the leader.  How retarded is that???  500 pins?  Really??  Thats why participation is going down in most City and State Tournaments.  The scratch guys are leery to bowl due to lack of cap/no cap and the guys that average 190 and getting their 30 sticks?  Well, they are up 270 pins before the first ball is thrown.  Then he shoots a 1900+ himself.  The scratch guy has no chance.

So......does the THS need to be toughened up?  YES YES YES!!!!  It will level out the playing field a bit and make tournaments even more competitive. 

So TwoHand834, you believe your elite and it is about bringing the ones you think are fakers, down a peg. Can I ask you three questions? Do you use the two hand method for bowling? Does the 834 represent a series you shot? If it does, I suppose you will tell me that was shot on this tougher condition you want so badly. You see I firmly believe 99% of the people who shoot 800 series have done it on soft conditions because there just aren't that many great bowlers out there, but one difference between myself and Impending Brain Death, I don't care that you did!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 20, 2012, 11:41:40 PM
TWOHAND834,

I appreciate your thoughtful response and applaud what you have done and respect your opinion. I too agree a tougher shot could be put out and not hurt the sport but some of these free thinkers on here want something akin to a National shot and that won't work. Kegel has a number of shots available for programming into their lane machines and I've always favored the easiest Middle of the Road shot or the next toughest in that level. I think that would be more than fair enough to stop ridiculous scoring and force bowlers to make good shots. I do wish you would have answered what kind of shot you have bowled those 843s on, because when you list your high score next to your name it means you're proud of that score (and rightly so), but most of the scores such as those are not shot on very demanding conditions. To list them but rail against soft shots would seem disingenuous.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 20, 2012, 11:49:03 PM
Impending Doom you got my support. I do love sport bowling but I want USBC to succeed.
I just got back from a tough tournament, 4th time in a row at this place and heard they placed a Xmas tree pattern this time and it was hard. My team mate bitched after I went over plus....1200 and adjusted and adapted he just complained the entire time he couldn't do a "down and in shot" like our house shot.

I demand for USBC to have sanctioned shots. I've posted about this for years. Leave the crowned walled up shots to the non sanctioned drunk leagues and give the sport some legitimacy. It's pretty simple what we are paying 20 bucks for. Would be mandatory for USBC to have sanctioned shots by USBC. USBC would do random inspections on all houses during a USBC santion league or tournament. Those caught using a house shot would be fined by USBC and even banned if that's what it takes.

The league bowlers that do not approve of this can join non sanctioned leagues. It's that simple and it's time for USBC to grow a pair of balls and save this sport.


So you would throw out bowlers who pay the same money as you, from the USBC, if they did not bowl on a sport type shot? YOU'RE A BIGGER IMBECILE than Impending Doom and Gloom! Listen doofuss, there has never been tough shot requirements from the USBC (ABC). I've bowled for a hell of a lot longer than you and  never witnessed this integrity you and others espouse on here. This thought process of yours is lame at best!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 20, 2012, 11:49:47 PM
I don't care about others when it comes to this topic. I care about bowling.

Then just bowl and shut up!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Nicanor on May 21, 2012, 09:13:58 AM
I didn't read through all the back post on this topic, sorry.

I understand how many think our sport has gotten too easy.  I don't disagree.

But bowling is not only a sport but a recreation.  What does all the senior bowlers care about a sport shot.  Why teach a young junior how to bowl on a sport shot.

I do not like handicap leagues though I'm sure they are necessary.  But not everyone can be competitive in a scratch league and leagues help keep bowling centers open.

Here in San Diego we only have three bowling centers open to the public, four is you count the one located in a pub, and three on the military bases. 

We want to go to a sport condition or at least a difficult oil pattern for all bowlers.  We would probably lose more bowling centers.  Its bad enough customer service is terrible in the bowling centers out in town because they have a captive audience, but to chase away other bowlers don't make sense.

Bowling is primarily a recreational sport except for the few who consider bowling a sport that necessitates sport conditions.




Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 21, 2012, 11:38:55 AM
That's not true Heap of Trash, It only means better sport of bowling for some. There are many who love to be competitive in league, battle for league championships, have fun and don't care one bit for anything you spew, but they still love being sanctioned league bowlers. You would not include them into the royal fraternity you aspire, which a short sighted goof like you doesn't understand, would kill the fraternity and end the game almost certainly forever. Simple enough for YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wow. I hit a nerve. (Name calling...nice touch).

And you want to sugar coat it, I am calling it what it is. Its an easy shot that produces high scores, requires no practice, and requires no ability what so ever to repeat shots.

You can have your recreational I mean competitive league (have all the fun you want), but don't get upset when someone tells you that you bowl on a easy condition.

It truly is sad that the determining factor of someone showing up to bowl is shooting a 200 plus game. Because if they shoot anything less, they will quit. It amazes me how fragile you think these bowlers are. I think most would adjust fine and move on.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 21, 2012, 11:42:00 AM
To answer your question about the 843s; they were both on house shots; albeit two different centers with different patterns and different equipment.  One was with the Triton Heat (original) where I went 290-279-264, I believe.  The other I started with a Hammer Big Block Diesel for the first 15 frames and then switched to the Crimson Executioner for the last 15 and went 298-245-300.  At the time, my thought was "Holy crap those are large".  But one was done around 2003 and the other was done around 2006.  We are now in 2012 and I have a different outlook on the sport.  I have seen the sport from ALL angles; from league bowling, to tournaments, to help running a pro shop, to being an Assistant Manager for a Brunswick Center.  Due to some decisions I made while in the military, it has prevented me from attacking the sport from the PBA angle.  I was denied a ball contract simply because I was a no thumber back around 2003.  What I am proud to say is that I have multiple 300s as a one hander, though only one was sanctioned.  My first I was 18 years old and using a 14 Black Rhino playing right up 8-10.  My first sanctioned was with a Critical Mass playing a similar line during league play.

The main thing I am not understanding about this debate, is that we are attacking from from one extreme or the other.  Do we need a 8:1 - 10:1 ratio house shot?  NO!  Do we need a 1:1 - 3:1 ratio sport compliant shot?  NO!  We just need a happy medium. 

In regards to oil machines....most are programmable up to several different programs.  I see no reason why they dont have Program A for Seniors, Program B for mixed leagues, and a Program C for the money leagues.  However, most houses just program 1 pattern for every league and then a side pattern for weekends and/or Summertime.  IMO.....thats poor management.  Personally I think the problem is an easy fix but I dont get to make the decisions, as do any of us.  Unfortunately we either have to live by what others give us or we quit. 

TWOHAND834,

I appreciate your thoughtful response and applaud what you have done and respect your opinion. I too agree a tougher shot could be put out and not hurt the sport but some of these free thinkers on here want something akin to a National shot and that won't work. Kegel has a number of shots available for programming into their lane machines and I've always favored the easiest Middle of the Road shot or the next toughest in that level. I think that would be more than fair enough to stop ridiculous scoring and force bowlers to make good shots. I do wish you would have answered what kind of shot you have bowled those 843s on, because when you list your high score next to your name it means you're proud of that score (and rightly so), but most of the scores such as those are not shot on very demanding conditions. To list them but rail against soft shots would seem disingenuous.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 21, 2012, 11:48:42 AM
So heap of trash, you would kill sanctioned bowling as it now stands? If that doesn't make you and idiot what does? You also have a reading impediment because if you would reread all that I posted last night you would see I agreed with one person that the shot you complain about could be made tougher without harming the industry and game as a whole. I said Kegel has numerous shots that can be downloaded and their Middle of the Road series contains some that would work very well. But, in your lame way you just can't get yourself to buy into that. I also don't bowl the type of shot you rail against and if you go back and read what I said about our league, you maybe would shut your yap.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 21, 2012, 11:56:34 AM
TwoHand, you're correct about the number of different shots, that's why I mentioned the Kegel Company. Guys like heap of trash would simple just get rid of any bowler that didn't bowl on a shot he felt was tough enough. Who's going to pay the freight for a clown like him with the USBC if the bowlers who comprise the majority of the membership are told "we don't need you"? I could say why don't bowlers like heap of trash and impending doom and gloom quit and find something else to do? They are the ones that are unhappy and I have always felt if you're unhappy with something you stay away from it.They are the minority and if they leave the USBC doesn't hardly feel a ripple.

I applaud you for saying you shot your high scores on the shot that is in question. Guys come on this site all the time and tell about the high scores they shoot. In reality, in this day and age almost every 800 series and 300 game is shot on THS. There are very few honor scores thrown on tough conditions. I have no problem with that. It seems the big-mouth minority does though. I wish I could fire one of those series or games but sadly I haven't been able to. My game relies on accuracy since I have very little power. That doesn't lend itself to stringing tons of strikes.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 21, 2012, 12:27:50 PM
Based on my Local Association, most leagues would not want a tougher shot. They like it just the way it is. High Scores equals fun. Most bowlers don't practice, and when they do come to the lanes for open play, they bowl just like they do in league. They like bowling high scores. They do not want to change and they do not want the challenge. 

The bowling centers place the oil patterns that best suits their customers and I don't blame them. Obviously the USBC can't control this, they are trying with Sport Bowling and I think there's a place for Sport Bowling, its' just not for everyone.

So let the center put down what ever they want, and monitor it that way. Let the bowlers see what they are bowling on. Inform them its an easy shot. When you have facts in front of you, it can't be argued.

A rating system could easily be developed. Even if my idea is too far down the road (monitoring the lanes every night), lets take baby steps. Start with the required yearly inspection and base it off that. Then do it twice a year. Then 3 times. Get it down to once a month (maybe that's enough).

Golf courses are rated why can't a set of lanes be the same way. Oil Patterns on those lanes would be the equivalent of playing from the Red, Yellow, White, and Blue Tees.

Kegel Patterns got it right. Maybe you have three categories. Recreation, Challenge, and Sport. You throw a 300 game on a Recreational Pattern its not the same as one on a Sport Pattern. Just call it what it is, instead of stating everything is equal.

http://www.kegel.net/patternlibrary/kegel-navigation-patterns.htm
 


Here something I posted earlier in this topic.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 21, 2012, 01:38:45 PM
Crickets.....
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 21, 2012, 04:06:18 PM
Based on my Local Association, most leagues would not want a tougher shot. They like it just the way it is. High Scores equals fun. Most bowlers don't practice, and when they do come to the lanes for open play, they bowl just like they do in league. They like bowling high scores. They do not want to change and they do not want the challenge. 

The bowling centers place the oil patterns that best suits their customers and I don't blame them. Obviously the USBC can't control this, they are trying with Sport Bowling and I think there's a place for Sport Bowling, its' just not for everyone.

So let the center put down what ever they want, and monitor it that way. Let the bowlers see what they are bowling on. Inform them its an easy shot. When you have facts in front of you, it can't be argued.

A rating system could easily be developed. Even if my idea is too far down the road (monitoring the lanes every night), lets take baby steps. Start with the required yearly inspection and base it off that. Then do it twice a year. Then 3 times. Get it down to once a month (maybe that's enough).

Golf courses are rated why can't a set of lanes be the same way. Oil Patterns on those lanes would be the equivalent of playing from the Red, Yellow, White, and Blue Tees.

Kegel Patterns got it right. Maybe you have three categories. Recreation, Challenge, and Sport. You throw a 300 game on a Recreational Pattern its not the same as one on a Sport Pattern. Just call it what it is, instead of stating everything is equal.

http://www.kegel.net/patternlibrary/kegel-navigation-patterns.htm
 


Here something I posted earlier in this topic.


Most sane people do that already.  Give it a rest, for crying out loud.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 21, 2012, 04:44:35 PM
Most sane people do that already.  Give it a rest, for crying out loud.

Then quit reading the topic if it bothers you that much. If you don't have something to add...then ignore it.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 21, 2012, 09:03:48 PM
Quit wasting band width
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 21, 2012, 09:21:51 PM
/nerd

If you want to get technical, he's not wasting bandwidth... At least not yours. He may be wasting his, but that's between him, and his ISP.

/nerd

Quit wasting band width
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 23, 2012, 06:17:18 AM
Get a life.  But at least you two aren't grinding this topic into the ground anymore.  Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 23, 2012, 08:47:37 AM
Get a life.  But at least you two aren't grinding this topic into the ground anymore.  Mission accomplished.
::)


Now let's take a review of this topic. We have some good quality replies and then those who supplied no input what so ever.

Instead of you having to read back to the beginning. I will provide overview by date on this:

Let us start: May 10, 2012 at 12:30:54 PM Impending Doom started this topic.

Quote
If you're not willing to work at bowling, leave. Bowling doesn't need you. It needs skilled athletes willing to showcase their skills that they've honed by hard work, practice and sacrifice.


Then Long Gone Daddy states:

Quote
I like it!


Then some very good input from Steven, Notclay, qstick, stopncrank.

And then....


 :P
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 23, 2012, 09:14:01 AM
Get a life.  But at least you two aren't grinding this topic into the ground anymore.  Mission accomplished.

Then stop reading the topic. Why are you so compelled to read every reply on this site. If this topic bothers you so much, then DON'T READ IT!



Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Monster Pike on May 23, 2012, 09:15:13 AM
Trash Heap, you are shocked why?  :o  ???  :-\  ::)
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 23, 2012, 09:41:19 AM
Trash Heap, you are shocked why?  :o  ???  :-\  ::)

You're right. I have been on this site long enough.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 23, 2012, 03:04:04 PM
I've just been busy, but thanks, LGD/CRD for reminding me to update this post!

Last night was the last night on the USBC shot, and it was a night that I actually had to think! That's a change from regular league bowling! It might have been due to the weather, or the fact that the other team were all pushing the oil down 8, but the pair broke down much different than last week. I kept moving left, trying to find some fresh, but the ball just kept pushing. Last week, I stayed on top of the transition, and did decent.

I jumped about 15 right with my feet, 8 right with my eyes, and threw it with some speed, and less hand, up 10. Only rattled off a 705 for 4, but I was high on the pair, and it felt good having to think when bowling. Not about which ball to throw, but where to move to and hand positions.

Tony, I congratulate you. You don't bowl in an easy house. But I am sure that you have bowled in an easy house lately, right? One where you can't miss, right? If you're a lane man, you can appreciate the art of putting out an oil pattern.

I grew up in a brickhouse. Place was brutal. Wood from the 50's, resurfaced so many times that they had to cut the nails down that they encountered when resurfacing. Heads were on fire by the end of practice and the back ends got super tight by the end of the 2ND game. Pins were heavy, and sidewalls were dead. Up until a couple of years ago, maybe 1 300 a year. 4 or 5 guys over 200. All pairs had their own... quirks. 7 + 8 were totally different. 8, you had to look like you were going to do through the face, because there was a HUGE hang spot in front of the 1 3.

It was sport just to walk in there. Also, it was fun. You were given nothing. You worked for it.

Anyone remember work? Earning something?

I will repeat. Keep your house shot. Pal around. I have absolutely no problem with having fun.

But, you are not good, in the grand scheme of things. You can not compare to someone with skill. You couldn't go out and play a pick up game of basketball, and at the end, be like "Where is my damn check for this game!?!?!" If you wanted to play for the sport, which include money and fame and championships, you would have to be much better. You take that mentality into any facet of life, and most likely, you're going to get trampled and humiliated.

OK, you come to tournaments, and I take your money. Thanks, sucker. Glad you have money to spend to not have a chance. Let's just save time, and you paypal it to me. It will save us both time, gas, and money.

If you're there, I HOPE you have a chance. Beating someone that has no chance doesn't make me any better. It just makes me the winner. Fish in a barrel, my friend. It's like taking home the ugly chick at 4am when the lights go up. If you had skill, you probably could have picked up a winner.


Get a life.  But at least you two aren't grinding this topic into the ground anymore.  Mission accomplished.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 23, 2012, 04:42:55 PM
Impending Doom and Gloom,

I haven't bowled at an easy house lately. I live in northern WI and there is no such thing around here. I will say again, that I practice many games a month. I love the game. Being that I switched from right-handed to left has made my determination as strong as anybody's. I don't have a power game. I'm a down and in stroker. I rely on accuracy and and I dial back the strength of my equipment to stay in an area where my game can compete. You won't meet a more fierce competitor. Anyone in my league will attest to that. I'm all about winning, I get as much out of my game as possible. I won't concede you anything but admit the level of my game can only get me, so far. I never think about this money, fame and championships you speak of and you shouldn't either because you are not good enough as you scores on the sport shot attest. Doesn't mean you shouldn't try to get better, but be honest with yourself, you are who you are. 98% of all bowlers are just like you and I. It takes god given ability and perseverance and work to be a pro.


Take my word for it, I HAVE earned everything I've accomplished. Nothing was given to me. I bowled at the ultimate brickhouse for 25 years and battled like a son of a bitch but at some point you would like to see the fruits of your labor. Wasn't going to happen, so when a new place opened up I decided to try my luck there. Could the place be a little tougher? Yes, I've told the owners that but they respond with the facts that we don't have honor counts being racked up hardly at all.

You say I'm not good. I'd love the opportunity to make you eat those words. I'd give you nothing. You will earn it and if you were as big a mouthed individual in person as you are on here I would give you something else. I've always backed up everything I say. You see ID&G, you're just an asshole with a big mouth, who thinks he knows it all. You won't and never will and if you had your way you would kill the sport we all love for the sake of saying " at least I try bowling on a tough shot". You do and your not very good. I may be a nothing bowler to you but I guarantee I could bowl better than you on the shot you are attempting to play on. I've bowled in weekly tournaments that one of our local centers ran on Thursday nights in which they put out a different shot each night. USBC Nationals, US Open, Women's US Open, etc., and never bowled scores that would not be at least 15-20 pins higher per game than the crap you're shooting. Won my share of money too. I don't spray the ball and keep it in play all the time. Plus, I make my spares. That's what kept me shooting decent scores.

The difference between you and I is, that I understand the dynamics of what is killing our game. As president of my league, I am applauded for seeing that we must take into account bowlers from both ends of the ability spectrum. You and heap of trash on the other hand would quickly exclude anyone who doesn't fit what you think bowling is all about!!!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 23, 2012, 06:00:36 PM
You know, Tony, as a lane man, you never replied to the question I posed to you. What do you consider a sport shot? Give me lengths, units and ratios.

And Tony, I am just like this in real life. No false pretenses. Several members on here know me quite well, and have for years. Ill be the first to be humbled by someone. If you're better than me, so be it. But rest assured, I'm going to throw everything I got at you. You might see me in person, and not think much, but I'm showing up to make you work for it. But I don't want to beat you on the soft condition. I wanna beat your ass on the tough stuff. If I throw it bad, then I lose. If you do, you lose.

That's how the sport should be.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 23, 2012, 08:58:15 PM
Trash Heap, you are shocked why?  :o  ???  :-\  ::)

Ringydingy stalking me around the site yet again.  Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: ccrider on May 23, 2012, 10:25:48 PM
It is sad that there are so many on this site that can not respond to an argument without making personal attacks on the contributors. Is it ADD, simplemindedness, immaturity, or just plain ignorance? Maybe its a combination of all of these things.

Good points have been made on both sides of the issue.  Why not just stay on topic leave the personal attacks out of it, or take them to the unmoderated forum.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 23, 2012, 11:36:45 PM
You know, Tony, as a lane man, you never replied to the question I posed to you. What do you consider a sport shot? Give me lengths, units and ratios.

And Tony, I am just like this in real life. No false pretenses. Several members on here know me quite well, and have for years. Ill be the first to be humbled by someone. If you're better than me, so be it. But rest assured, I'm going to throw everything I got at you. You might see me in person, and not think much, but I'm showing up to make you work for it. But I don't want to beat you on the soft condition. I wanna beat your ass on the tough stuff. If I throw it bad, then I lose. If you do, you lose.

That's how the sport should be.

Hey ID&G, I'd love to give you all the things you ask but sadly I live in a small city and believe it or not, I do the lanes by hand, applying the oil with a mop and buffing it. If I could, I would, but I can't! I will tell you that I oil to 35 feet. I never strip the entire lane. I strip from the pin deck back 15 feet, and use a dry towel to remove as much oil (that such a process will) on the rest of the lane. There is always oil on very board of the lane up to the last 15 feet.

As far as bowling each other I wouldn't want it any other way. What I lack in talent, I make up for in desire. You will get nothing from me without beating me for it. I would love to bowl you for some dough as I seem to rise to the occasion when money is on the line. I have been called a sandbagger a number of times but that is something I would never do, but throw some Benjamins on the line and I'm a different cat!

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 23, 2012, 11:42:29 PM
 

[/quote]
It is sad that there are so many on this site that can not respond to an argument without making personal attacks on the contributors. Is it ADD, simplemindedness, immaturity, or just plain ignorance? Maybe its a combination of all of these things.

Good points have been made on both sides of the issue.  Why not just stay on topic leave the personal attacks out of it, or take them to the unmoderated forum.

No, the problem is some people seek to disenfranchise the majority that belongs to the USBC, and in doing so, do it in a way that makes them come off as elitist snobs. That makes many of us upset and respond in more terse terms that a softy like you can't handle. That being said, run along to another thread where you are much more comfortable!!!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 24, 2012, 12:16:49 AM
Tony, any time you're in my neck of the woods, ill be glad to shoe up, and go head to head. We can move this match to pm and discuss where we could meet up. I'm in the greater chicagoland area, so you're only about 5 hours away. We'll probably have a Midwest gathering this summer late, so we could be down to business then.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 24, 2012, 07:36:24 AM
All arguments aside, I do have one question to TDC.  I am surprised in this day and age a bowling center in a "bowling" state doesn't at least have a Century machine.  But that isn't my question.  My question is, if the shot you bowl on is "by hand" and as you have stated, no real award scores, then aren't you bowling on a more difficult shot than the precisely laid out and stripped shot most other bowlers are bowling on?  I get the impression you feel your scores are earned and bowling at your center is prospering.  Why is that?  Maybe it is the only game in town.  But how would you feel if there were more award scores in a no money mixed league with 16 teams than you had in your entire city?  I don't mean this in any negative way.  I have enjoyed your perspective on this topic.

I think those on the side of more difficult shots, myself included, don't necessarily want only sport shots.  I think somewhere along the way the advocates of leaving the shot alone thought it was sport shot or go home.  That isn't the case.  Myself and TWOHAND have both stated a slight change to the ratio is all that is being asked.  I don't want to bowl on 2:1 ratio patterns, but I don't want to bowl on 10:1 or 12:1 ratio patterns that are being thrown out now.  In fact, I am willing to bet most lane men don't know what their shot's ratio is. 

Like I said before, the sport of bowling is on a dramatic decline.  There are obviously more reasons than just the shot or the equipment.  However, standing idly by doing nothing isn't going to work.  The sport isn't going to miraculously start generating new members.  A much higher percentage of youth are bowling on more difficult shots than adults.  The youth are our future of this sport and yet we tell them, the minute they begin bowling as adults, the competitive shot was only intended for youth leagues. 

Keep your 12:1 THS if you so desire.  But USBC should have a membership level for that league.  Have a 6:1 ratio shot that has a separate level USBC membership that may include better awards.  And have your "sport shot" USBC membership that will have even better awards.  And all memberships get all the other benefits of a typical sanctioned league. 

Even if this idea is ludicrous, at least propose something to grow the sport other than sit back and enjoy your beer.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 24, 2012, 07:45:03 AM
Tony... early morning thought...

I know I'm bad. Hence, why I am the inventor of the FIBJAM. I know that bowling on the china isn't going to get me any better. It's only going to allow me to score better. Scoring better without being better is just a fools game.

Also, I took off since the end of August 09, and only open bowled a couple of times before joining this league. Hadn't touched a ball since March. Set my expectations really low the first week. Met them. Next week, things started coming together. It's still a work in progress.

I did find that going in and practicing on the house shot gives me nothing to work for. Too easy to get sloppy and still strike. Thumb down it, miss left, miss right, throw it hard, you hit the pocket and most of the time, strike.

I'm out of bowling shape. Core and legs could be much stronger, along with my game. Already looking to get some coaching from a coach this summer. Heck, if I can qualify to even enter a regional this summer, I am. Might I be just showing up to give them my money? Sure. But I am not scared to, and am willing to admit that I am nowhere near PBA quality.

But I can work on it.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: ccrider on May 24, 2012, 08:41:54 AM
TD,
You know nothing about me. But your response to my last post echoes what I said. Too bad you have so much trouble staying on task.

The point that the "elitest" have made is that classifications based on the difficulty of the conditions bowled on are needed, in addition to optional more difficult conditions. If this is done, then each bowler could choose the condition that he bowls on. Bowl on the wall, shoot honor scores and get a wall of china honor award. Bowl on the more difficult condition and shoot honor scores, get a class "A"  honor award.

Many bowlers do not realize how much difference the oil pattern makes. Last weekend a regular local three day tournament decided to put out a more difficult shot, opting for the White 2 pattern with 23 units. The normal first cut to the top 40 is 690. The cut using this pattern and volume was 598.  220+ THS  bowlers could not make the cut. To say they were upset would be putting it lightly.  They swore it was a PBA shot and promised not to bowl the tournament (2000k first place) next month if the regular shot is not used.

The director says that he wanted to bring integrity to the tournament, rewarding the bowler that could make and repeat good shots while adjusting to changing lane conditions.  The same type of integrity needs to be brought to bowling as a sport.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 24, 2012, 10:09:52 AM
CC,

Unfortunately, the response will be the difficult shot just proved it will decrease participation.  And I understand.  But at the same time, I understand why the director made the choice.  If the tournament turnout is bad, the tournament might die or change back to the old shot.  Or it will encourage a different group of bowlers who desire to have a tournament with a shot that rewards good bowling.  But we don't know right now which is the correct outcome.  I would like to think the tournament will flourish, even if it takes some time of reduced entries.

I run a WTBA tournament once a month and get a great response from those that bowl in it.  Most of my bowlers are repeat bowlers.  But right now numbers are low.  Maybe because, as TDC and others have said, nobody wants to bowl on difficult shots.  Maybe it is because it is the end of the year, bad time, bad day.... who knows why.  But I am willing to put the effort in trying to grow the sport in this manner and will be diligent.  Right now it is a monthly tournament.  Next a league.  After that, who knows.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 24, 2012, 02:16:41 PM
spmcgivern,

First, I would like to say you are quoting me wrong if you say I think nobody wants to bowl on a difficult shot. There's a big difference between what some on here think they want and THS. If you had time, you could go back and read where I said I told the owner of the house I bowl at that he should maybe toughen up the shot and he responded that nobody was really shooting honor counts. I also said that I had checked out Kegel's downloadable shots and thought that their "Middle of the Road" series offered shots that would require more solid play without making it so difficult that people quit.

Also, the place that I maintain the lanes is located in my hometown. It's a small city and the house only has 4 lanes. They have two smaller leagues and consider a lane machine more expensive than paying me to take care of them. We don't have a ton of high end bowlers but a lot of decent scores get shot. I do not bowl there for two reasons. The first being, the place is hanging on by a thread and I don't want to commit to a league and have the place close leaving me out in the cold, so to speak. I did bowl there in a league for about 30 years. The second reason is, I bowl at a place about 12 miles away and do it because the team competition in the league is solid and there are many good bowlers to compete against and see how I stand.

cc, the main talking point from many on this thread who believe the only answer is a tougher shot, is they would tell all the average league bowlers (the majority that pay the freight for the USBC) to get lost if they don't like it. That doesn't seem to be an intelligent idea! The tournament you used to make your point about THS bowlers is just what I would have expected. Why wouldn't THS bowlers be upset. They should have known it would be a lot tougher for them going in. The deal is I just don't find that many guys that I know complain that it's too tough for them when they encounter such a shot. They may complain about how hard it is, but never say I wouldn't bowl on that again. I'll use this year's WI State tournament for example. Compared to the last couple of years the shot was far tougher. My squad shot considerably less than previous years and barked a little about the shot having a very small window to make a decent shot but none said they wouldn't go again. Many, like myself said the shot was there and given another chance to bring equipment that would better fit the shot, we thought we would score better. I also blamed my shooting ten pins under my average there, on myself for partying too late after bowling in our league roll-offs, on the two nights leading up to going to state. Since switching to left-handed I don't bowl well if I've worn my self down. That's on me.

Impending, I never said I was scared to bowl against better competition and just handing them my money. The point was the average bowler on THS doesn't care that they are handing good bowlers their money in league or tournaments. They love the game for what it is and don't feel a need to bash the good bowlers. They know those guys earned the right to win the majority of the money. They just wish the good bowlers didn't feel the need to bash them!

I would love the opportunity to bowl against you. Let me know what the date is for the meet this summer. I will say that summer isn't my best time since I live in a tourist area and own a restaurant that relies on that tourist trade to get through the tough winters. Getting away is more difficult for me at that time of the year. Too bad we hadn't had this conversation in March as I was in Chicago on March 30-31 to watch my son's high school baseball team play a game at UIC.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 24, 2012, 02:37:34 PM
TDC, I did see you saying you asked to toughen up the shot and unfortunately didn't apply to my response.  I apologize for that.  And pertaining to the center you work at, I just didn't consider a 4-lane house as a possibility. 

I think what I am seeing and have thought for a while, is bowling is different in Wisconsin than most other places.  There is a reason ABC/WIBC was headquartered there for so long.  Wisconsin has competition, history and understanding of the sport of bowling.  Unfortunately, I can't say the same for my environment, at least not to the level I see here.

Kegel Challenge shots would be a great starting point to gauge the interest level of the league bowler to a slightly more difficult shot.  Only problem would be convincing the owners and managers of centers to give it a try.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 24, 2012, 05:37:51 PM
Tony,

I never said I was typical. Far from it. I can't get excited about scores that are shot on the Ray Charles pattern. I remember this one night in league, myself and my co worker in the shop shot 570 with cap for the second game, and we thought we had the handicap pot LOCKED. No, nevermind. 610 won the pot, followed by 605, then 590.

Did they really have that much skill? Heck no. But they won, due to conditions. They didn't throw the ball better than us. They excelled on the wall.

I actually used to joke that when I would throw it bad, I would carry, and vise versa. I used to call 8 or 9 pins with how good it came off of my hand. But then, I would throw it anywhere, and carry. It makes you lazy as an athlete. You don't pay attention to the shot you just made, you just watch the ball do the same thing no matter if you hit your mark, or missed it by 5 boards either way. It doesn't reward good shot making. It rewards spray and pray.

Bravo to you, Tony. Doing the lanes by hand is an art. Mad respect for that. No one does that down here anymore. In fact, your shot is tougher than most of the house shots around, I am willing to bet. If you were to get ratios and all the technical madness, you would probably find that your shot is not 10:1.

I'm not talking about making them mind numbing difficult (although, that is fun). I'm bowling on Challenge 4239 ( http://www.kegel.net/patternlibrary/foPattern.asp?iKodPattern=600&bScreen=1&bType=0&iKodMachine=0&iKodConditioner=0&iKodLane=0 )
for the first time, and want to see how much different it is from the USBC pattern. If it worked for a league shot, let's do it.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on May 30, 2012, 12:05:44 PM
I've been gone a few days and I'm glad to see this topic calm down. There is no easy answer for this but one thing I know for sure is any decision that would possibly cause a decrease in the number of sanctioned bowlers we have now, would not be a good one. The answer is not a simple and saying tougher league conditions would end all of bowlings problems is ridiculous. There needs to be a multi-level approach. I just wonder if the USBC did have different sanctioning levels, how many of the guys who complain about easy shots would still bowl in league with such a shot?

One thing that still sticks with me is that earlier somebody posted about guys who stand stand right and throw the ball in and get some kind of help from THS. I would like this person to remember that the game of bowling was built on down and in bowlers and there is nothing wrong with being one. Please don't use such a term as a negative to bowling. This game is about accuracy and nothing is more accurate than playing down and in. Guys who have such games have to make far less adjustments and can control lane changes much easier than the big hooking guys. Also, please remember soft conditions can also favor the big swing type players often more than the down and in guys. Hooking the ball has never been the sign of a better bowler, just more colorful to watch!!!
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: ccrider on May 30, 2012, 01:46:58 PM
TD

I am sure you realize that standing left and banking off the dry on the wall of China is not the same as playing "down and in" on a legitimate shot.

No one has criticized playing direct. The issue is the great wall, that requires no skill or ability to repeat shots.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: crpulse on May 30, 2012, 02:01:34 PM
You want a challenge on the "cheesy cakes" THS? Throw plastic or urethane. Break out the old u-dots, white dots, and any other color dots you can think of (Columbia made several). Maybe next week at League I'll bring my Blue Omega or my early reactives (Critical Mass, Super Beast, etc).

Or for the utltimate challenge start a league that uses patterns from the 80's and only allow plastic balls. If you can learn how to bowl well on that condition you can bowl anywhere.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: ccrider on May 30, 2012, 02:50:30 PM
That is exactly what I plan to do next year. Plastic and weak urethanes only. I want to learn how to bowl. Not how to bank.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 30, 2012, 02:57:58 PM
That is exactly what I plan to do next year. Plastic and weak urethanes only. I want to learn how to bowl. Not how to bank.

It's going to be plastic only for me too.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Impending Doom on May 30, 2012, 03:45:18 PM
If I bowl on the THS, I'll use urethane. Save me the headache of choosing which ball to throw.

Gotta get back into the habit of wiping my bowling ball with my towel though...

Also, trash heap, I love what you've done with your signature.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: stone8 on May 31, 2012, 08:35:51 AM
I understand and admire the desire to improve and/or the desire to create more of a challenge on the THS.  Using plastic or urethane on a THS will certainly fulfill those desires, but it will also open a whole other can of nasty worms known as sandbagging.  Though not the intended benefit, it could be such.  So would bowlers opting to use plastic or urethane on a THS also re-rate themselves accordingly if bowling in a handicapped tournament?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 31, 2012, 09:01:52 AM
The last poster has illustrated the futility of trying to make it fair for everybody of all skill levels.  YOU CANNOT DO IT!

"Tourney snobs" will have to be happy bowling in their Sport condition leagues and their tournaments.  If they choose to go "slumming" and bowl on a THS, shut up and keep the fact that their superior skills are not being tested. 

The "THS hack" can blissfully go on unaware that the lanes and ball technology are helping him more than he knows.  He will learn his deficiencies when he dares to bowl in a sport league or tourney with a flat pattern.   

The mixed league bowler will just treat bowling as a great way to get out and mingle with people totally clueless about the epic battle being waged about something they could care less about.

The beauty of it all is all three segments can find what they are looking for in today's game.  Problems arise when one segment, due to ego, wants to subjugate the other segments into doing what they want to do, not what the other segments want to do.  Check your egos at the door, find your niche, and be happy.  Most importantly, leave the segments that aren't your cup of tea alone.   
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 31, 2012, 09:31:54 AM
LGD,

Out of curiosity, do you feel bowling's future is stable?  Do you feel the slow reduction of league bowlers will steady, or better yet, increase?

I personally feel there is an issue with the future of league and competitive bowling.  Maybe making the shot more difficult isn't the answer.  (by the way, no one is saying the everyday league shot needs to be a sport shot)  But if changing the requirements on the lane conditions isn't the right answer, what is?

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Youth bowling is on the rise.  There are more competitive environments for youth bowling than there are for adult bowling.  If the increase in competitive participation at the youth level can be based on the implementation of more difficult lane conditions, then why not try it at the adult level?  And we wonder why the youth don't want to continue bowling in adult leagues.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 31, 2012, 10:39:27 AM
Bowling will survive.  People want to continue to just pay lip service to the fact that there are way more activities vying for people's time and money.  It is a fact and it is not going away.  It says a lot when people are willing to "experience" a game, sport, or workout in the comfort of their living room on a Wii than actually going out and doing it.

Anybody remember the tennis craze of the 80's?  How'd that turn out?  How many people know the French Open is going on right now?  I wonder if the people that go online to tennis forums (if there is such a thing) bitch about how their sport gets no coverage in the papers or the networks except for major tournaments?  Wait, that sounds kind of familiar. doesn't it?

Youth bowling is strong.  High Schools are adding bowling programs every day.  Collegiate bowling is strong.  Let me ask you something.  Do you think those kids give a damn what bowling was like in the 50's-80's?  Hell, no!  They weren't even born then.  They see, learn, and bowl on today's conditions and shots.  Guys that bitch about the demise of bowling just don't get it and refuse to evolve.  How many guys do you know who quit the game when reactives came out because they just couldn't learn the release differences that the new balls require?  I know a handful.  Pretty pathetic in my opinion.  They can't so they bitch.   

League bowling suffered when the mom and pop businesses started suffering with the economy.  They used to sponsor whole leagues, let alone teams.  Economy nosedived and they quit sponsoring leagues.  Then they figured that it was too expensive to drop $200 on an entry fee and five shirts for their team.  Guys got laid off, or moved to different jobs to soon to form close ties with co-workers making it almost impossible to form a team.  Industrialized states where bowling was always popular lost people to the great job migration to the South in the 80's and 90's.  Genie is out of the bottle and can't be put back in.

What bowling lacks is drive and participation on the local level.  How many times do I read a post whining about lack of scratch leagues?  Lots.  What I don't read is where somebody detailed the great lengths they went to establish a scratch league.  They and almost everybody else expect to just walk in and bowl in the scratch league of their choice.  Doesn't work that way.  Anybody that does try it, quits after one year due to poor turnout.  Have to be patient.  Better bowlers who want to be challenged will find a tough league if given time.  Ordinary bowlers will find a THS league that they will want to bowl on.

Evolution is not picky.  If bowling is meant to die it will die.  If a proprietor can't make money, he will sell or close his bowling center.  He will cater to those he can make money off of.  But like any smart businessman, he will pay attention to any market segment that is large enough and devoted enough to make enough racket that they want something different.  Proprietors have always been the gate keepers.  YOU want something different than the normal THS, prove to the proprietor that you can make it profitable for him to do what you want.  Bitching on an internet forum isn't going to accomplish one thing. 

Let me end by saying those who wish bowling will go back to what it was in the 50's thru 70's are dreaming.  That was over 40-60 years ago.  Evolve.  Lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.  Every other sport has evolved, why would you want to hold bowling back?       

 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Steven on May 31, 2012, 11:04:00 AM
LGD, I'd quote your response, but no need. Well said.
 
Bowling isn't going to die, but until one of the newly minted tech billionaires give the USBC the money necessary to buy up and manage all the bowling centers in the country, lane conditions aren't going to change. That's reality as long as recreational bowlers bring in the bulk of revenue.
 
Want to slowly turn the tide? Do what you can within the current environment to support competitive bowling when it's offered. Drag your buddies along. Participation is the key to getting the attention of house owners.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: spmcgivern on May 31, 2012, 11:13:51 AM
Nobody is saying to take bowling back to some "glory day."  I agree, no one wants to go back to plastic and rubber bowling on lacquer.  In your eyes, you see competitive and league bowling reaching some equilibrium based on today's, and the future's, equipment and conditions.  Whether that point is higher or lower than where the sport is now doesn't matter to you as long as you have bowling at your convenience.  But then again, you may get bored or tired of bowling and move on to something else.  Everyone is entitled to do that if they so desire.

However, there is one aspect of the "glory days" I would like to see come back, and that is the PARTICIPATION at the competitive and league level.  And you made a great point pertaining to that; it is up to the proprietors.  Bowling must become profitable to succeed.  What is being done today isn't making bowling competitive.  Perhaps the situation is different where I live.  Maybe my perception of the sport of bowling is skewed because of the lack of competition where I live.  We have good leagues, but no real scratch leagues.  Bowling centers want to cater to the open bowler with $5.50 lineage instead of the league bowler at less than $4.00 lineage.  I see centers with 40 lanes limit their leagues to 20 teams just so they have room for open play. 

I guess what I am saying is I don't know what will improve bowling other than whatever makes it profitable.  And LGD, you have given me incentive to try and improve that in my area.  Maybe I will fail and you can then give me the traditional, "I told you so!"  But I guess I am a bowling idealist.  I love the sport.  If my views aren't shared by others, then I won't be successful. 

And in response to youth and high school bowling.  They do see, learn and play on today's condition.  Only thing is, it isn't a THS.  Many youth tournaments and high school competitions are on more difficult shots.  Maybe not sport shots, but not THS.  And almost all collegiate events are bowled on sport compliant shots.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 31, 2012, 12:42:05 PM
What would your opinion be if USBC change some lane specifications, which would make the game "evolve" even more?

How about kickback plates being improved that ringing ten pins would almost be eliminated?

How about gutters in the pin deck that get pins to bounce more which would practically eliminate flat tens?

Its all to make the game better. right?
 

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 31, 2012, 02:52:22 PM
If you're going to post just to be a tool, trash, you'll find yourself on the ignore list of quite a few people.

AGAIN, you just ain't listening!  Some proprietors have livelier kick boards in their pits now.  They want to boost scoring.  It brings money in.  Some have dead boards in their pits, they want to be known as a tough house.  Same goes with the range of specifications for how far below the pin deck the channel can be at it's lowest point.  Some ride the upper spec to help scoring, others ride the lower spec. 

Let's just put it this way, trash.  Find a league in a house that caters to what you want or think bowling should be.  Other than doing that, get involved at the grass roots level to get people in your area to see it your way.  If you can't do that, evolve or die.  Bowling ain't going to miss one more dinosaur that longs for the old days and does nothing but bitch about the new days.  Man, if you wanted to come off as a whiny punk, I'd have to say "mission accomplished". 
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on May 31, 2012, 05:17:44 PM
Okay. I admit, I stepped over with that reply.

I just believe all this technology is too over top for this sport. The amount of money spent for more STRIKES is just crazy!  I understand it brings people in, but I think it keeps plenty from joining too.

Money is the key. Money is what keeps the centers open, money is what keeps the ball manufacturers around. Money keeps the USBC around. I might not like what they are all doing, but I am aboard for the ride.

Charlest stated it early in this topic:

Quote
author=charlest link=topic=286406.msg2325623#msg2325623 date=1336881824]
WOW!!!!!!!
HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This has degenerated into a true melee. WHen I read Impending Doom's hypothesis, I felt I agreed with it.

My summary:
All other sports/games apparently provide the "sport" aspect of their "competition" as the main displayed or accessed aspect of their "competition". The game aspect  is or was labeled by some derogatory name, such as T- ball or mini-golf or Pee-wee  football. While in bowling, we call the house condition or the "game" of bowling, "Bowling", and we all "the sport of bowling", "sport bowling".

There is no debate, there is no alternative.That is the way we label our sport, in order to differentiate it from our game.  I also believe that is one step that MUST be taken to "restore bowling's integrity". I assume this is the base subject that we are discussing.

It remains true that our "theoretical" governing body, the USBC, has been bought and taken over by the people who own bowling centers, the BPAA. This is basic politics, because, as in national and local politics, the people with the most money rule everyone else. It's simple economics.

Any discussion that aims at change must first address this situation: how to extract power from the people who have the power. (read: money) Until that is accomplished, any discussion addressing this situation/environment is utterly moot.

You're expressing all your opinions (Nicely done, especially Darreyl), but it is just that - opinions, and nothing more.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Long Gone Daddy on May 31, 2012, 07:10:52 PM
No sweat, trash.  But I think you're being too hard on bowlers.  Every new driver in golf is designed to do what?  Give a golfer the 350+ yard drive.  They gotta have them.  Every bass fisherman buys that new lure or fish finder to do what?  Find the lunker.  Why does a pool player buy the custom cue?  Pick a sport, the participants are always buying the latest and greatest.  Marketing departments are full of people with degrees who learned how to make people desire the newest thing.  You see that some bowlers are getting smart and going back to older balls, or at least mid-range balls.  If I have last years hook monster, they expect me to buy this year's model.  If it hooks too much, I'm supposed to buy the pearl version which hooks and hits like last year's hook monster.  I won't do it.  I'll just use last year's hook monster which was more than enough ball for 95% of conditions we see. 

I have struggled trying to make my ball bend like the crankers.  I can't do it, finally realized it, and I am going back to playing straighter.  I don't need the latest and greatest to do that.  It's all in how you play the lanes and how you want to characterize yourself as a bowler that defines you as a bowler and how you define today's game.  I am at peace with what I can do on today's lanes and with today's equipment.  Why can't others?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on May 31, 2012, 11:55:15 PM
Just have to find a small center, in a small town that doesn't care about the "issues" that are facing bowling.   There are still some out there that don't give you the strikes for simply walking in the door and sneezing the pins over.

Once you find a place like this, it's what re-news your energy for the sport.    Too bad not everyone has places like this around them.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on June 01, 2012, 01:22:07 AM
Great post, xx.  I'm lucky that I have that small town with that center and those bowlers who just love to come and bowl and enjoy the game for what it was meant to be. A game that you challenge yourself and opponents each and every night. Some guys maybe average better than their talent level should allow but it isn't out of control and nobody cares much about it.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: trash heap on June 01, 2012, 09:43:28 AM
I have struggled trying to make my ball bend like the crankers.  I can't do it, finally realized it, and I am going back to playing straighter.  I don't need the latest and greatest to do that.  It's all in how you play the lanes and how you want to characterize yourself as a bowler that defines you as a bowler and how you define today's game.  I am at peace with what I can do on today's lanes and with today's equipment.  Why can't others?

My issue is I don't have the speed. I can bend it, but if its too dry my ball is a dud at the pocket. The local center does not put out a lot of oil. They cater to majority. High Speed and Low Revs. Most bowlers can use very new equipment and play between second and third arrows. I cannot use any reactive ball by the end of the first game. So at the end of this past season, I only took Usrethane and Plastic with me to the lanes. It was sort of a relief, due I wasn't trying to throw faster. I could play in my zone alot more.

Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: TDC57 on June 01, 2012, 11:36:24 AM
i would just like to add one thing to the comments about other sports and how they are similar to bowling by always adding the next best thing to the sport. I played slowpitch softball for years and first came high compression softballs that increased the distance the ball flew, then came composite bats. All at once you had guys who weighed 140 lbs. who at best were gap hitters, now could hit the ball 450 feet. (That is no exaggeration). I was a singles hitter and in my first time at the plate with one of these super bats (Miken Ultra II), I hit a homerun to dead center that went about 320 feet. Every sport deals with this at one time or another in some way, bowling is no different.
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: milorafferty on June 01, 2012, 11:42:59 AM
Has anyone ever considered a having low ball league?
Title: Re: "Sport" bowling must die.
Post by: avabob on June 01, 2012, 09:57:33 PM
If I go back over the 45 years I have bowled competitively the biggest change has nothing to do with scoring per se.  The biggest change is that 45 years ago the lane man had too much control over the lane condition and too little knowledge.  Today, because of the balls, the lane man has too little control over the lane condition despite more knowledge and better technology. 

We have the ability to control the way lanes need to be played the same way gorundskeepers in golf control the playing enviornment, but the balls allow the bowlers to morph any pattern into what they want it to be too quickly.

Keep in mind I am not talking about most leagues, but about high scratch levels of competition.  I would love to see polyester balls mandated for high level competition.  We could cut the oil volume in half or less.  Scoring enviornment could then be control effectively based on lateral dispersion of oil.  Want a high scoring environment? No problem put out 10 ml of oil at a 5-1 or greater ratio and you get high scores regardless of buff length.  Want them tougher put out 2 or 3 to one ratio and guys have to play straigher for more games before they can open the shot up