BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: J_w73 on February 21, 2013, 11:43:09 AM
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Anybody know anything about this fitting technique. Looks like it is just an offset thumb. (And I know, by definition of how to measure a grip layout, an offset thumb doesn't technically exist.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX6-k7XC97s
http://billhallbowling.com/index.php?id_product=1&controller=product
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Watching the you tube video was like watching grass grow.
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Watching the you tube video was like watching grass grow.
lol .... the only things that are worse than watching grass grow and paint dry are golf & tennis. I can't get any satisfaction out of watching those two things. ::) :(
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I was waiting for him to ask if faris buller was there! lol
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=faris+buller&ei=UTF-8&fr=chr-greentree_ff&type=937811&ilc=12
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I was waiting for him to ask if faris buller was there! lol
http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=faris+buller&ei=UTF-8&fr=chr-greentree_ff&type=937811&ilc=12
haha.. that actually did pop into my mind when I heard his voice.
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This sounds like just a copy of Carl Hoffmire's Max Y Grip. I've used the Max Y Grip and it does do what Carl Hoffmire claims it to do.
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This sounds like just a copy of Carl Hoffmire's Max Y Grip. I've used the Max Y Grip and it does do what Carl Hoffmire claims it to do.
Isn't it just a variation of an offset thumb or CLT drilling?? Wouldn't this bring your track over the thumb hole??
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Carl's Max Y Grip maybe a bit different. It's not so much a offset grip but a way to drill a ball a different way using existing fitting philosophy. For instance my grip is 4 1/4 x 4 3/8ths RH and that is nothing unusual.
Here are my numbers. 4 1/4 x 4 3/8 span. Thumb is drilled with 1/8 reverse x 1/16th left at 22 degrees. My fingers are drilled 5/8L 3/4R with 0 F/R at 43 1/2 degrees. (these numbers are approximations since my drill sheet is down stairs and I can't recall the exact decimal numbers but you get the idea.)
Now since the fingers are not drilled at 0 degrees the ending pitches are different than the starting pitches and I've tried a thousand times to just take the finish pitches and drill them as a normal T grip and it doesn't feel at all the same.
I end up with about 1/2 Forward in the fingers when you take the measurements off the T grip and I will tell you it gets off my hand cleaner with more axis rotation than anything else I've ever thrown.
I'm not going to get into detail about it because I promised I wouldn't reveal the secrets of the grip but it is indeed another option to fit for people who are looking for a change.
http://www.gripcheck.net/index.html
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With all the knowledgeable bowling minds out there that have given their ideas to the bowling community for free there is no way I would pay for a product that is untested. Show me some results and maybe I would be swayed....but I doubt it. I have played around with many different feels through the years but I always end up back where I started.
But good luck if you decide to pursue it.
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Carl's Max Y Grip maybe a bit different. It's not so much a offset grip but a way to drill a ball a different way using existing fitting philosophy. For instance my grip is 4 1/4 x 4 3/8ths RH and that is nothing unusual.
Here are my numbers. 4 1/4 x 4 3/8 span. Thumb is drilled with 1/8 reverse x 1/16th left at 22 degrees. My fingers are drilled 5/8L 3/4R with 0 F/R at 43 1/2 degrees. (these numbers are approximations since my drill sheet is down stairs and I can't recall the exact decimal numbers but you get the idea.)
Now since the fingers are not drilled at 0 degrees the ending pitches are different than the starting pitches and I've tried a thousand times to just take the finish pitches and drill them as a normal T grip and it doesn't feel at all the same.
I end up with about 1/2 Forward in the fingers when you take the measurements off the T grip and I will tell you it gets off my hand cleaner with more axis rotation than anything else I've ever thrown.
I'm not going to get into detail about it because I promised I wouldn't reveal the secrets of the grip but it is indeed another option to fit for people who are looking for a change.
http://www.gripcheck.net/index.html
Odd that you wouldn't be able to reproduce it measuring and drilling off of the T-grip
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The grip is a great feel. The pro shop that does my equipment has been bombarded with plug work after people get one done. The nice thing about this it cant be copied like a T grip.
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The grip is a great feel. The pro shop that does my equipment has been bombarded with plug work after people get one done. The nice thing about this it cant be copied like a T grip.
The nice thing it can't be copied? So when you travel, the airline loses your bag, you can't get balls drilled at a tournament? Nothing nice at all with that situation. That statement alone would steer me way way away.
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I have heard about this Grip drilling. I came into contact with a person that was experimenting with this drill a couple of years ago before it was released this year. I had been having problems with comfort and ball reaction. I saw my buddy practicing and went to the Lanes to speak. As i was speaking i stuck my hand into a couple of his Bowlingballs that he had applied this grip to and was asking what drill is this? I know this feel. He said it's new and nobody knows about. I told him this is not new, i've had this drill before but no one could get it right for me. I used to have what they called the Collier Grip back in the late90's to early 2000's. Jose Torres of Action Pro Shop at the time drilled my equipmwnt that way. I took the concept back to my new Drill Man. After many attempts to get the right feel, we nailed it. He called it merely a center-line transfer, where the thumb is drilled off center lining up behind the dropped middle finger and extending the ring finger. I have been Happy for the last two seasons throwing this CLT!! Best grip change i have made that felt like old. (15pins back onto my avg.) ;D ;D ;D
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If it's drilled on a mill...it can be copied...
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I can assure you that the Tri-Grip is not "merely" a CLT but is far from it. Many have tried to copy the Tri-Grip with the CLT method and have not been successful. Unless you understand the linear lines of the tendons of the hand that is based off of kinesiology that is explained in the video then no you cannot copy it.
If you have your specs and go to another shop then yes that other shop can copy it if they know the technique.
There has been many players that have compared the Tri-Grip with the CLT method and have found that the balance and feel of the grip is completely different from each other. If you want to do your own comparison then I completely encourage it by finding a shop near you that has the Tri-Grip method.
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Bill is the expert here, but I can tell you from my own experience that the Tri Grip does not feel the same as the CLT or Collier Grip. I've tried all of these and the Morich fitting system too. The Tri Grip is the most natural fit I've found. It takes all of the weight out of the ball for me... feels like I'm wearing a glove instead of holding a 15lb orb.
I was lucky to have my ball laid out by Bill himself, but now my shop (Pinole Bowlers Supply in CA) offers the Tri Grip and I'm getting my stuff converted.
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I am not awaare of anyone in Oklahoma City that does this tri-grip thing.
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Would like to try this out, but $200 is way to much without any knowledge of what you are buying.
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In my opinion if it is indeed a night and day comparison then i need to make that distinction for myself because in the end it is the feel of the bowler. Not disputing that this difference exists but need to draw my own conclusion for my preference. I apologize if i was incorrect. It is not my intention to discredit anyones hardwork and inventiveness. I am a Bowler who is always searching for that extra something. 8)
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What shops in Hawaii have it?
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What shops in Hawaii have it?
Al Thomas
Somoff Pro Shop
PO Box 763
Eleele, Hi. 96705
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Does anybody know if there is someone in the Vegas area that uses/will use the Tri-Grip fitting? I would be very interested in it...
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anybody in ohio have it?
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My question is how does it affect your ball roll?
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I had a ball punched up with the Bill Hall tri-grip method. Measuring the ball after it was drilled I found that the lateral finger pitches ended up being about 3/16 left of what was spec'd on my drill sheet. When I measure the pitches on my CLT they almost match what was on my spec sheet. I also learned that the standard oval degree is 60 deg if your thumb is spec'd at 45 deg with the mo rich fitting technique. Spans on the drill and on the spec sheet did not change. The thumb pitch looked like it went from a spec of 1/2 rt, 7/16 reverse to 5/8 right, and 3/8 reverse. It almost looks like the thumb pitches were drilled on a line from the thumb through the middle finger. When I measure there I seem to get the 1/2 right and 7/16 reverse. The driller did align the inserts along my CLT. The feel of the ball is alright and came off my hand pretty well with minimal bevel. I've been through so many grips though that it just feels like one of the many grips I have tried. Nothing too special. I don't know if I am a fan of the lateral finger pitches as I get pretty far inside on the ball and this seems to put a lot of stress on the right sided of my fingers and nails. Primarily my middle finger. I can't give much info on the roll or reaction because I had a spare ball punched up. So that is my synopsis of what I found. If anyone can make anything out of it please send your input. If you have any more questions for me, let me know.
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I got the video from Bill and have used it on a couple of customers to see if they like the drilling technique. All of them have brought their other balls in to have them plugged and done using the tri grip. I have tried several offset drillings but this one is the most comfortable. All my customers using is said they felt like the ball rolled better and continued through the pins much stronger than their other balls. I have watched all of them throw both and I did notice cleaner releases on all of them. One of them has an identical ball with the exact same layout as the one with the Tri Grip on it. When throwing both of them the Tri Grip ball hooks more because he is able to stay behind the ball more than his original release. So far I am impressed with it.
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We have converted at least 25 or more regulars in Chicago Bowlers Shop, BZ Niles (Rich Blake. proprietor) and you can tell the different reaction and consistently better release on these bowlers. I have tried it (have not fully converted over) but I can tell the different feel in my hand. Since Rich has two shops, it was well worth the investment for Bill's system.
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I'm highly skeptical about not being able to copy it. Obviously someone like Bill with his reputation has to be taken seriously, so even though I'm skeptical, if he says it can't be copied, I'm very inclined to take his word on it. However, I've done this long enough that it's at the very least confusing. Like Rico said, if it's done on a mill, it can be copied. The only thing I can think of is that if you don't know the technique, you may not know where to measure the pitches from, and that could be the kicker. In a regular drill, all pitches are measured from the grip centerline. In a CLT drilling, when measuring pitches after the line transfer, 1/2 left won't mean the same thing as it does when doing a regular drill. This means that if given a measurement spec sheet, you won't be able to copy it without knowing the technique it was drilled by, but if you have the actual ball and measure everything manually, there's no way in my mind that you would be unable to copy that. Again, coming from a guy of Bill's stature, with his reputation, it would be completely ignorant not to trust or believe him. But depending on your perspective, it could be a little misleading.
Yes, given a special technique and only numbers, I would definitely believe I wouldn't be able to copy it, but given the actual ball, a couple pitch gauges, and a ruler, I'd be really surprised if I couldn't duplicate it. There's also only so many ways to drill something. Again, back to what Rico said, if it can be drilled on a mill (especially with no special equipment required), it can be copied. I do not know the method, but I would have to think that if you're good at fitting people, a comfortable, functional fit should be able to be achieved with no special process or techniques. 1/2 left for a standard drill, or measuring from an unmoved centerline will be different than 1/2 left on a CLT, BUT, it can still be measured based on a standard drill and adjusted for. 1/2 left in the middle finger for a righty using the CLT technique when measured from a standard drill standpoint won't read 1/2 left, it will read something in the neighborhood of 7/16 left and 1/16 forward on a pitch gauge, but given the angle and a little math, you could calculate it out. Meaning that if the CLT for the middle finger was say 10 degrees left of a standard static centerline 1/2 calculates to a decimal number of .500, which is a required calculation for entry into the digital pitch readout on a mill in the first place. If rotated 90 degrees to the left, 1/2 left becomes 1/2 forward, so you have a basis for mathematical calculation. 10 degrees out of 90 equals a percentage of .111 repeating, equaling a rounded percentage of 11.1. If the 1/2 left is then rotated 11.1% left, your resulting numbers are a mildly rounded .045 change per 10 degrees, making 1/2 or .500 left in a 10 degree CLT a converted .455 left, and .045 forward for a standard static centerline drill. Now, .500 left of a 10 degree CLT deviation from standard static centerline isn't going to be exactly .455 left and .045 forward due to rounding, but the difference is in the thousandths, and given that it's hard for people to tell a difference of an entire 1/16 in pitches (.063), there's no way possible to feel the difference.
So in summation, it CAN be copied, though for 100% accuracy, you would have to know the technique. However, an experienced, technically solid driller should be able to get you close enough that you'd have to be a complete princess to feel the difference. I once drilled a ball for a guy whose middle finger and ring finger were fused together all the way up to the base of his fingernails. Obviously not being able to get accurate or definitive fingersizes (it was a conventional drill), and having no basis on which to determine lateral pitches, being that the holes had to overlap enough to keep the grooves at the front and back from cutting him, but far enough apart to still create a grip, I had to completely eyeball it, and I completely nailed it. Now if I can do that, I'd have a really hard time believing that I couldn't copy an already existing fit with all the tools necessary at my disposal. Whether the drilling technique is needed or not, I don't know. It may just be an easier way for other pro shop ops to fit people better, or a more accurate, repeatable standard.
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Here's a quote from Bill Hall from bowlingchat.net. -- JohnP
It amazes me how many posts there are by those that have not even worked with the Tri-Grip Method. So let me put this another way before I close out my end of this conversation. If you look up any type of kinesiology it states that "if" the thumb is the axis point that the linear lines of the hand and the vector in which they create will therefore be part of the maximum strength with the least amount of effort if those lines are based "solely" on the radius of the object that is being gripped in the hand. That is simple enough to understand. Degree of pitches make a huge difference in what is established for the hand's motion and natural "shape". That also is simple enough.
As for the Tri-Grip and the "dual angle" layout, it is established with a mere 5/16" additional movement towards the positive axis point than what you would do with a standard T grip.
For those that have understood and taken the Tri-Grip into your shops, I truly appreciate it. For those that haven't or won't I respect your decisions as well. But one final thought, since a pin placement can change the leverage of a core based on a axis point, and the thumb is the axis point of the hand, then why wouldn't a different layout create a different leverage for the hand? Seems simple enough. I thank you all for your time and for me the subject is closed. The true test is those that have moved forward in offering an alternative to their players and customers.
Thank you,
Bill Hall
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All you folks got to remember that people like Bill Hall and Mo need to come up with some kind of "new" BS every once in a while to keep their "guru" status.
Moral of the story is, if you have a comfortable grip, stay with it. If you have an uncomfortable grip, find another ball driller.
There is no "magic" grip
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We have a quote from The Dark Knight that we use fairly frequently among ourselves, "If you're good at something, never do it for free." The dual angle is a great technique, but is it wild and revolutionary? Not really, just a lot more accurate. I haven't seen what's up with the tri-grip yet, but I'll bet it's really great. How much greater than other top of the line fitting techniques? Not sure. If it's a more standardized way to better fit people, great, there's shops out there that completely butcher fit and need to be taught correctly. Sometimes though, I think concept and principles trump technique, or are at the very least equal. Like listening to someone playing music, sometimes the perfectly timed music off the sheet doesn't quite get it done. Fitting to me is a pretty personal thing, everyone's hand is different, so if you aren't sensitive to every little thing about someone's hand, it's not going to be right. Can someone be fit well without the tri grip? Sure. Can they be fit better with it? Don't know, but I would like to think Bill isn't charging 200 bucks a pop for something that's basically a different angle on something a lot of us already do. Sometimes a technique is simply a different method of doing the exact same thing. My grandpa "invented" the Glade plug-ins, or at least grasped the concept of placing a pack of something scented on the dash of his car when it was hot outside. Somebody came along and adjusted and marketed the idea, and they're a genius. Not sure whether this is the same deal or not, but we're confident enough in our fitting that we aren't going to drop the 200 bucks just to find out it's basically the same thing we're already doing. I'd consider myself a fitting expert too, I've put a lot of time and effort into research about the human hand too, but nobody's going to pay me 200 bucks because my name isn't Bill Hall.
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All you folks got to remember that people like Bill Hall and Mo need to come up with some kind of "new" BS every once in a while to keep their "guru" status.
Moral of the story is, if you have a comfortable grip, stay with it. If you have an uncomfortable grip, find another ball driller.
There is no "magic" grip
Bullred, I have to disagree. People don't know what is comfortable and what isn't comfortable sometimes. As a former pro shop operator, I saw plenty of people that walked in with a "grip that fit", and I would look at it in horror, and want to give them a hug for having to suffer thru it. I would then suggest I refit them, and then when I did, they couldn't comfortably throw the old equipment. There are plenty of people out there that HACK their way thru the pro shop industry, and when I used to see their work, I would work to correct it.
Now, not saying that Bill Hall's method is groundbreaking or not. But to say "If you have a comfortable grip, stay with it" is a uninformed statement.
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I just purchased the system and it is not just another off set thumb. The weight of the ball is taken off the index finger and placed in the center of your hand, making the ball "feel" a bit lighter. I am a lower track player and this grip raised my track by over 1 inch. There are other benefits that I found but kind of hard to explain to folks that have not tried it.
Results will vary from bowler to bowler, but if you are having problems with a inconsistent release, this may help.
Again, you will have to try it and form you own opinion.
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Doom, because you seem to be a nice guy, and I have aged a bit since the early days of this forum, I'm going to let an argument slide. But can you explain to your bowlers how to "set the thumb" and then "fish hook the fingers". These two exercises are a part of ball fitting.
Getting back to Bill Hall and Mo. Their new "discoveries" were being practiced back in the early 60"s. We just did it with a tape and "rolling" the ball in the cradle. They just re-invent something now and then.
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Yeah, we already do that . . no offense. If it helps out, awesome, that's the point of anything like this. Again, I think it's another way, or just a standard or technique of doing the same thing.
I just purchased the system and it is not just another off set thumb. The weight of the ball is taken off the index finger and placed in the center of your hand, making the ball "feel" a bit lighter. I am a lower track player and this grip raised my track by over 1 inch. There are other benefits that I found but kind of hard to explain to folks that have not tried it.
Results will vary from bowler to bowler, but if you are having problems with a inconsistent release, this may help.
Again, you will have to try it and form you own opinion.
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How about posting some pics of balls drilled with this technique so we can all see what it looks like.
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Because it's not going to look any different. It's not some different, crazy way to drill a ball. It's just some adjusting and balancing that I doubt you'd be able to really see just by looking at it.
How about posting some pics of balls drilled with this technique so we can all see what it looks like.
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Bullred, you're entitled to your opinion. We can start an argument thread later. :)
My question is how it changes your pitches. I've been using a CLT for the last 7 years, and no matter what people try telling me "I can match that with a standard T grip! It's just readjusting the pitches!", I feel it's not true. If your CLT angle is, let's say, 10 degrees, the f/r and l/r pitches are going to be aligned differently than just trying to slap the pitches that you see with a gauge onto a t grip. The hand is not that simple.
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A quote from one of my earlier posts in the thread regarding this:
1/2 left for a standard drill, or measuring from an unmoved centerline will be different than 1/2 left on a CLT, BUT, it can still be measured based on a standard drill and adjusted for. 1/2 left in the middle finger for a righty using the CLT technique when measured from a standard drill standpoint won't read 1/2 left, it will read something in the neighborhood of 7/16 left and 1/16 forward on a pitch gauge, but given the angle and a little math, you could calculate it out. Meaning that if the CLT for the middle finger was say 10 degrees left of a standard static centerline, 1/2 calculates to a decimal number of .500, which is a required calculation for entry into the digital pitch readout on a mill in the first place. If rotated 90 degrees to the left, 1/2 left becomes 1/2 forward, so you have a basis for mathematical calculation. 10 degrees out of 90 equals a percentage of .111 repeating, equaling a rounded percentage of 11.1. If the 1/2 left is then rotated 11.1% left, your resulting numbers are a mildly rounded .045 change per 10 degrees, making 1/2 or .500 left in a 10 degree CLT a converted .455 left, and .045 forward for a standard static centerline drill. Now, .500 left of a 10 degree CLT deviation from standard static centerline isn't going to be exactly .455 left and .045 forward due to rounding, but the difference is in the thousandths, and given that it's hard for people to tell a difference of an entire 1/16 in pitches (.063), there's no way possible to feel the difference.
So given just the drill sheet, it would be impossible to copy. Given the ball and some tools, however, it would be a different story.
Bullred, you're entitled to your opinion. We can start an argument thread later. :)
My question is how it changes your pitches. I've been using a CLT for the last 7 years, and no matter what people try telling me "I can match that with a standard T grip! It's just readjusting the pitches!", I feel it's not true. If your CLT angle is, let's say, 10 degrees, the f/r and l/r pitches are going to be aligned differently than just trying to slap the pitches that you see with a gauge onto a t grip. The hand is not that simple.
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Doom, way back maybe as early as early 60's,
with the advent of the fingertip grip becoming popular it became a matter of "comfort" with the fingers hurting on the sides to find some kind of pitches to relieve this pain. One of the ways we used was to insert the thumb, lay the hand flat on the ball and draw a line down through the length of the fingers. This we used as a "centerline" for drilling the fingers. Bob Strickland almost used this system to drill his Strickland Offset grip. This was essientually just a dual centerline. Ie, the CLT.
Brunswick patented a grip call the Brunswick Offset which was just moving the thumbhole left or right of the normal center line.
Through the years I have drilled and used everything you can imagine. All of the so called "NEW" discoveries today are just resurrections of old ideas we tried many years ago. After you have bowled 40-50 years you will realize that Comfort is the driving force behind most drill patterns.
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Gizmo, this is a conversation I've had countless times with bowlers, pro shop owners, etc. It's the same with keyboards.
Look at a regular computer keyboard.
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Famigakit.leamancomputing.com%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2Famigaone-keyboard-kx1000-1.jpg&hash=9d1e96d5d32126e232b63818e0806812b879b586)
Now look at one of the old ergonomic keyboards.
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcodinghorror.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a0120a85dcdae970b0128776fcf06970c-pi&hash=10dbf6e14ea2413e0ffba0db31463327a9d3adbe)
The older ergo keyboards had a VERY pronounced mound in the middle to keep your hands from drifting.
Now, if you look at a newer ergonomic keyboard
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fergonomicinfo.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2FIMGP0149.jpg&hash=b90d2eb4da5c7e67bdf1504d7667a5ab3a0817f5)
That mound in the middle isn't as pronounced, but it is there.
Now, you might not be able to feel it as much in a bowling ball as you can on a keyboard, but you can feel it. I've tried to copy it in a standard t grip, and although the numbers come out the same, the feel isn't the same. Trust me, if I thought I could get away with copying what the pitch gauges say, and applying it to a t grip when I drill my stuff, I would. But it doesn't feel the same.
It's not about numbers, it's about the ergonomics of the hand. Period.
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I'd have to do some experimentation. It's not beyond reason for that to be true, not quite the same as the keyboard analogy you're working here, but I understand where you're coming from. I don't necessarily debate that it can't be completely copied, but I still hold that a good fit can be originated from any and all techniques. Given that pitch gauges only measure in sixteenths, I'd believe it could be fairly inaccurate trying to copy it, but knowing both procedures and establishing a mathematical conversion *should* feel the same. Or in other words, just using pitch gauges and a ruler, I wouldn't be super confident in nailing a CLT drill using the static centerline method. I would however be extremely confident in nailing it with the mathematical conversion.
This is also why I maintain that a good fit is a good fit, regardless of the numbers or technique, so I completely agree with you about ergonomics of the hand. That's what we base our fittings on, not angles or guidelines of a certain fitting method. We fit your hand, take those measurements, and find exceptional success just using a static centerline.
Gizmo, this is a conversation I've had countless times with bowlers, pro shop owners, etc. It's the same with keyboards.
Look at a regular computer keyboard.
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Famigakit.leamancomputing.com%2Fcatalog%2Fimages%2Famigaone-keyboard-kx1000-1.jpg&hash=9d1e96d5d32126e232b63818e0806812b879b586)
Now look at one of the old ergonomic keyboards.
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcodinghorror.typepad.com%2F.a%2F6a0120a85dcdae970b0128776fcf06970c-pi&hash=10dbf6e14ea2413e0ffba0db31463327a9d3adbe)
The older ergo keyboards had a VERY pronounced mound in the middle to keep your hands from drifting.
Now, if you look at a newer ergonomic keyboard
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fergonomicinfo.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F09%2FIMGP0149.jpg&hash=b90d2eb4da5c7e67bdf1504d7667a5ab3a0817f5)
That mound in the middle isn't as pronounced, but it is there.
Now, you might not be able to feel it as much in a bowling ball as you can on a keyboard, but you can feel it. I've tried to copy it in a standard t grip, and although the numbers come out the same, the feel isn't the same. Trust me, if I thought I could get away with copying what the pitch gauges say, and applying it to a t grip when I drill my stuff, I would. But it doesn't feel the same.
It's not about numbers, it's about the ergonomics of the hand. Period.
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Oh, I have no doubt the math is correct. I can see that one hundred percent. However, same numbers doesn't always mean same fit.
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I would still like to see a picture of a ball drilled using this system.
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As an individual I have purchased the video. I have been bowling competitively for over 35 years. I owned and operated a proshop for a decade in the past and I have a proshop in my garage where I drill for several including myself.
I drilled a ball a few days ago in my garage and have bowled with it several times. While I will not disclose the method I will offer the following
Like others have said:
1. The ball does indeed feel more comfortable in my hand
2. The ball does seem to come off my hand easier and more consistently albeit differently.
3. The balls weight is more in the center of my hand which might be why the balls feels lighter.
4. I can still "get on it" or "off it" at will.
As well, Today I have duplicated the resulting grip from the TriGrip method using a TGrip method to drill. With that said the TriGrip method of grip measuring is vastly different than TGrip and I could not get to the TriGrip sepecifications when starting from a TGrip. The TriGrip method is unique and offers a vastly different (easier) approach to determine a grip. Albeit just as different to drill.
I like it so far and I am glad to learn another method. And I am glad I spent the 200. I predict it will provide a solution for many willing to try it. And I consider it marks a significant improvement since Bill Taylors method was introduced.
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pin.chaser,
I too have changed to the TriGrip. Drilled 4 balls last weekend that Bill Hall laid out.I agree with everything you posted. I have been bowling for 39 years and have tried every grip known to man. This grip for me fits my hand and comes off so smooth. Bill has been working on this for at least 5 yrs, it is now perfect. All i can say to everyone who has doubts give it a try.
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My concern is if I travel afar and loss my equipment via lost airline luggage, stolen or damaged, how will I get my equipment drilled if no one where I am at is versed in the drilling technique, then I'm screwed.
Also, how many professional bowlers do you think are using this technique or still using there "Old T-Grip" and cashing in every tournament they bowl in while we continue to fight a THS with this new fitting fad.
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Pat
Despite what you may have previously read, once you have the trigrip fit you like a normal tgrip measurement will duplicate it. And any ball driller can drill it albeit they will look at you funny. Just hand them your spec sheet.
I agree this is new and might be a fad or it might revolutionize how to fit balls. It's your call if you want to be on the front end or backend. If your like me I want to understand it and try it. I'm not converting everything I own, going at it slow. But this shows me the potential that there may be a way I can get better.
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Ok, that all makes sense. I still don't know if it's worth 200 bucks, but at least we've gotten to the heart of the thing. So you're basically paying for his knowledge, experience and the resulting technique that makes his fitting method the easiest to execute? I also don't doubt that you wouldn't arrive at a Tri-Grip fit using T-grip standard measurements, I was just more challenging the statement that you couldn't mathematically calculate a conversion, or that you couldn't fit someone well without using it.
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I've been fitting (fairly successful I might add) for over 25-30 yrs on every level...I'm pretty sure I can fit fairly well without it thank you
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Rico no doubt. It's not for you or your clients ... It's not for everyone.
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I'm not even sure what that translates too...
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Actually after viewing bowling balls on that system it appears your only changing the pitches. Everything else is very standard. Interesting
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Changing pitches or where you measure them from?
Actually after viewing bowling balls on that system it appears your only changing the pitches. Everything else is very standard. Interesting
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Not sure I'm not buying the koolaide. I have a pic I can post tomorrow that may help
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First, I had the honor to be able to have my hand and grip looked at who I consider the best "guru" ever, Bill Taylor. Although he asked about my lack of bevel in the fingers, it was spot on.
Second, I talked to a friend about it, told him my current span and pitches, and he throws out at me "7/16 left, 0 f/w in the thumb" when my current pitches are 1/4 fw and 1/8 right.
Now, I'm not ignorant to fitting practices. Sounds a bit radical. Am I saying I won't try it? Not at all. I would plug and redrill something just as a test bed. But it sounds awfully off the wall.
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Going off of speculation of what we have seen and read is a lot of talk about there being an offset or a dropped finger ect ect
When you look at the pics then take into consideration something my brother pointed out to me it becomes obvious it is just a possible change in pitches. Everything else will be the same. You will continue to lay the ball out like you always did but use different pitches for a better feel.
Look at pic one and the ball mapped out on the system. and how it looks pretty unusual. Then look at the pic in the next post.
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi250.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg252%2Fsoundcontrol%2Fball1-1.png&hash=e9e7c3a1dcaa1d656b46ad2b14bc963c9bf35e64) (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/soundcontrol/media/ball1-1.png.html)
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Now look at the red lines marking the balls grip. Once you measure your new pitches on this line your back to laying the ball out as normal, and with the new pitches measured off this line. I am guessing that is part of what is taught after everything is said in done.
So even though it looks different it really isn't. It appears to be a different way of measuring and fitting obviously.
(https://www.ballreviews.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi250.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fgg252%2Fsoundcontrol%2Fball-1.jpg&hash=7926308947c077da15f7148bcd41c80373a53632) (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/soundcontrol/media/ball-1.jpg.html)
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Sorry Your lines are not even close to the system
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No need to apologize its not my ball. I'm not the proshop who is using the system. I just used their pic to demonstrate what we've heard so far. Eventually it will be free online and most will disregard it. My $200 will go to practice and new equipment. Just cause its fun
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Sorry to say this is not revolutionary...anyone that understands how the hand flexes and the angles to coordinate such hinging can accomplish this...much of anything today is merely being marketed as revolutionary and earth shattering....and it's not.
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Regardless of the original lines, the red lines basically confirm what most of us thought, it's nothing super crazy, it's just measuring pitches from a different spot. Again, I think he just found a way to express the measurements easier, or in the typical fashion of 16ths, instead of having to express decimal numbers for the pitches. Give every finger it's own centerline. I'm sure his experience and knowledge is worth the cost, and I doubt he's trying to work marketing angles to sell it, it's just been perverted by all the egoists puffing their chests out . .
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I would be willing to bet that the people who are having positive results from the Bill Hall Tri-Grip system are people who were never properly fitted to begin with.
Maybe that is a plus to Bill's system. It may be providing a better way to fit people.
In the end it comes down to the experience of the ball driller regardless of what system they use. I assure you, in time, someone will get fitted wrong with Bill's system and there will be posts on this site about how bad it is.
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This was something I had thought too. It may be just a more standardized way to fit people better. If it is, that's still pretty awesome.
Your last statement is true also, there will still be people fit wrong using this method. To each his own though.
I would be willing to bet that the people who are having positive results from the Bill Hall Tri-Grip system are people who were never properly fitted to begin with.
Maybe that is a plus to Bill's system. It may be providing a better way to fit people.
In the end it comes down to the experience of the ball driller regardless of what system they use. I assure you, in time, someone will get fitted wrong with Bill's system and there will be posts on this site about how bad it is.
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Et all,
I have been bowling 40 years and have some success... highest average 243, highest series 878, won serveral state and city championships, never not caches in the Nationals. I have also had a proshop for several years although not recently. However, Ive been to several instructional classes, ball drilling/layout clases, Mo Pinel, IRTC and Kegel multiple times.
That said, I am not egotistical I just want to learn. And what I learned from Bill Hall in 25 minutes on that video is something new and what I believe to be industy changing. Will it be, depends on the users. Just because it is good doesnt mean it will be accepted. That said many of the points in most posts I have read have some points which I may contend is true. And after learning, measuring and trying I could have and probably should have invented it years ago. But he put the pieces together and that is whats new. It is even close to what I invisioned from seeing the pic of the ball with lines a few months ago.
All the nay sayers haver some valid points and Im not suggesting that everyone pay for the video. But not to try something because you dont want to or believe something when you dont even know the details seems a bit fixed on the current and not the potential for the future.
Im in my mid 50's and I look for everything. Sometimes they are good and others they are not. And despite I am not a proshop owner and more, I purchased this for me, my knowledge and understanding. And that is not typical that bowlers puchase something that proshops would be primarily intesested in. But, ill say it again, Im glad i did and would do it again. And I believe that getting better means staying current on as much as possible.
I was not trying to offend anyone so if you are please accept my oppologies.
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Good point. When the free version Is posted online I will do the same.
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So where is this posted online?
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So where is this posted online?
I have yet to see it posted online anywhere. I don't hear much about it anymore either. It seemed like it helped some people and others didn't like it. It didn't work for me.
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When I started drilling in the 50's, I had a personal system I used. It was a variation I went to off of the old Centerline drill. Layout the ball on the normal centerline and drill your preferred thumbhole on centerline.
Finger holes laid out on centerline with your preferred span but put same span on ring finger as middle finger. Now scribe new centerlines for drilling the fingers. Each finger drill has its own centerline. This line runs from center of each fingerhole to a point 1" to the right of center of thumbhole for RH. Opposite side for LH. Drill finger holes at zero starting with the middle finger. Drill ring finger parallel to the middle finger to keep the holes from running together. Allow a normal span for middle finger. All of these so called "offset" drills were thought of long ago. Brunswick even patented their "offset" drill back in the 40's. The only thing an offset is, is a change of directional pull of the fingers. The only way this will help your game is comfort. No miracles here. Done right, with all other things proper, it will give you a comfortable grip and release on the ball. This grip, done correct with proper "setting"of the thumb and "fishhooking" the fingers can give you the grip and feel you need. PS...A repeatable way of beveling the thumbhole is kind of critical also. There is a system for this also. Luck