BallReviews
General Category => USBC Tournament => Topic started by: Mighty Fish on July 08, 2013, 04:38:19 PM
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Some people claim that the scores in the USBC Open Tournament are way too high, and they point to the high number of honor scores in attempting to make that point.
However, once again this year, the OVERALL averages of the tournament field are far from "too high" (as the following breakdown of this year's USBC Open clearly indicate) ...
* REGULAR TEAM ... 173.6 (120,335 games)
* REGULAR DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 173.8 (233,203 games)
* CLASSIFIED TEAM ... 152.1 (34,054 games)
* CLASSIFIED DOUBLES/SINGLES ... 149.3 (73,765 games)
* TEAM (both divisions combined) ... 168.9
* DOUBLES/SINGLES (both divisions combined) ... 168.0
* OVERALL (all divisions, all events) ... 168.3 (461,357 games)
So as I've maintained on many occasions, whereas there are quite a few high scores, only a very few -- outside of the best players and shotmakers -- are able to score at a high level. The statistics speak for themselves.
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Solid data, of course, the elitists will say its "supposed to be this way" and "they are too easy". More of the same, with the elitists "smelling their own farts", like they have been for years.
Those averages are dreadful, but comparing the "haves" to the "have nots" is a exercise in futility. Make them softer and the guys at the top will put up phone numbers, sure the overall average will rise. But the top players will shoot near 2250+ for AE. The only real solution is opening up the divisions.
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It did seem like scores were high but that was for team only i felt. The pattern had a soft spot to it unlike singles and doubles.
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When you get over 40 feet patterns have a tendancy to set up with some inside hold. I definitely saw that this year with the 41 foot pattern. The Ice oil might have also been a contributing factor. Not talking about house guys who need extreme swing area to get comfortable, but the more serious scratch bowlers who are accustomed to playing flatter patterns. These guys can exploit a little hold at 4th arrow.
Also another interesting stat from this year. Look at the low to cash scores for seniors compared to the open division. It is higher across the board.
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Talk about a lot of high average bowlers getting a reality check.
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The advantage is to those who bowl on the shot consistantly prior to the event. If you have that advantage you will compete.
Most are going into it blind and the scores reflect that.
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the advantage is too anyone who has the time and will make the effort to adjust their game to flatter patterns than house shots.
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Spares, spares,....spares
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I guess I have to be the Elitist and say this is how it should be.
It is a National Tournament and should contested on difficult conditions, The Cream should rise to the top. Because in this situation Bowling is a Sport not a game. And if that means alot of bowlers house mice and good bowlers as well get a reality check that is fine (me included if it comes to that)
People can live with one ugly struggle a year IMO. If they can't the reality check might be needed lol.
Before I get all tore up by you guys I only had 1829 all events.
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Why is it "Elitist" to say the National Bowling tournament should be contested on a difficult shot? It is supposd a test of skill, a test of teamwork. Not a carry contest. The best of the best should be at the top. A person that bowls once a week on an easy THS shouldn't be wining this event.
Also, who says the scores are too high? I have never heard that complaint. We have what maybe 30 300 games in a year, that is like .01% of the games are honor scores. If there are 10 800 series in a year, that comes out to the same .01% of series that are honor scores. Doesn't seem to high to me, seems to be just about right. Anyone who says "scores are too high" is just trying to justify a reason to make the shot easier so they can score better. I didn't bowl well this year, in fact I haven't bowled well here in the last 2-3 years, some of my worst scores ever actually. The reason was because I failed to execute and some bad decisions by teammates not following the gameplan we set forth before bowling. Simple as that.
The last thing I will add, is that the person who made the OP has a hatred of the USBC. No matter what they do, it will be wrong in his eyes. Every mistake that may make, and the people at the USBC are human like you and I and make mistakes, is blown out of proportion, turned into a huge conspiracy by him. Take anything he says about the USBC, or bowling in general with a very large grain of salt. Because more than likely it will spun into the worst possible light with the truth stretched like a rubber band set to fire across the room.
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The only problem with the USBC lane condition is not a problem with the condition at all, but rather the same problem competitive bowling has at every level. We have great technology and knowledge of how to put out demanding but not unplayable conditions, but we allow balls that can totally manipulate the condition in short order. Lane conditions should transition, but it should take more than a few frames to manufacture a hole in the pattern.
To make a golf analogy, it is the same as if the US Open condition was altered by balls to shave the rough down after every shot that went wide of the fairway.
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I thought the shot was a fair "Sport Shot". Unfortunately my sport shot average is almost 50 pins under my house shot average. Our house shot is very easy to get to the pocket and carry is pretty good too. Naturally my house average went from 209 3 years ago to 226 this year and was as high as 240. I have no illusions about my skill. I should be in the 200-210 range. "Spares-Spares-Spares" is a good mantra, but when the 4 pin/7 pin/ or 10 pin spares turn into super washouts, 2-8-10, pocket 7-10 it is harder to cover those spares. My issue was trying to find the "magic line", the right hand position or the perfect ball. Instead, after my wife yelled at me, I just executed my game and shot 630 in singles after a 520 in doubles. In the summer PBA sport league, I am doing better now that I have focused on my shot and not the approved PBA recommendations.
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The national average for men is around 160 and for women it's 140. so is it safe to say only above average bowlers go to the open tournament?
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no i beleive bowlers of all skill levels attend the tournament in droves.
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I usually spend the better part of a week at the Open each year prior to our actual squad time. And from watching a lot of bowling during that week, I completely agree with mainzer. This is not a high skill level crowd. Sure there are some good bowlers in each squad, but overall, I think the field is a pretty accurate reflection of the bowling population as a whole.
no i beleive bowlers of all skill levels attend the tournament in droves.
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I think I saw where the national average for men was around 172 a couple of years ago. Interesting that it was 167 in the 1960's. Not really that much higher today.
The skill level of the average competitor in nationals is not much higher, if any than the average league bowler.
The biggest problem bowlers have today is not that they lack skill. I think anyone who can average 220 on a house shot is pretty skilled. What they lack is the versatility to be competitive on flatter patterns of varying lengths.
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no i beleive bowlers of all skill levels attend the tournament in droves.
My point exactly. Some people try to make like the open tournament is a PBA event and only elite bowlers attend. I was just trying to show that the average was very close to the national men's average
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I maintain that all of the information contained in my original post is valid and correct.
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I maintain that all of the information contained in my original post is valid and correct.
I was wondering if you still thought that.
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The teams at the top are typically great bowlers, no doubt about that. The one other factor they all have is they play as a team to breakdown the shot in a controllable manor. You don't have to be one of the elite teams to do this and have a good trip for you and your team. What that score is will be determined by your ability. We have began to work on a game plan the last couple years in each of the events. We put one of our teams in the top 100 and a doubles in the top 40 last year. The year before we had 3 bowlers in the top 80, including the guy in 5th. The key in my mind is we went to the ITRC and practiced on the pattern. NO it wasn't exactly what we saw at the Nationals, but it wasn't a house shot and at least close. My team cashed but not well due to me blowing out a shoulder in the 4th frame of the first game of team. Had surgery just a couple months later. We are not bowlers that are even that well known in our area, but are decent and bowl together in many events and leagues so have team chemistry. We do have the advantage of living in the DFW area, but houses all over the country do or can offer the pattern once it is announced. I think it is the only tournament (and should be) that to be successful you need to practice and have a game plan if you want to make money as a team. Otherwise it is everyone for themselves and someone is going to get hosed.
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no i beleive bowlers of all skill levels attend the tournament in droves.
My point exactly. Some people try to make like the open tournament is a PBA event and only elite bowlers attend. I was just trying to show that the average was very close to the national men's average
90% of the entire field are the "average joe's" of bowling really. I believe that's why entries are falling (among other things). It used to be a destination (get to see the country or go to places you wouldn't normally travel to) type of event. I know a lot of people that don't want to spend upwards of $1500 dollars (we live on the east coast) to go to Reno every year. I know for me personally if I weren't making money out there year after year, it would be tough to swallow the losses just to participate for a couple of days.
I for one have never heard of people saying they wouldn't go because it is tough, in fact there are many many people who don't know anything about lane conditions or even worry so much about them as others do.
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The problem (if you want to call it that) is that the top bowlers will always be the top bowlers (and should always be the top bowlers); the classified division offers lower level bowlers the opportunity to compete for some money against their peers (and a few sandbaggers); the 180 - 210 house hack has no chance of competing with the big boys but the tournament needs them to keep going to keep the tournament alive.
I don't think the tournament provides a realistic chance for the 180 - 200 bowler to even cash and certainly not to get more than a small check. The bigger problem is that I'm not sure that there is a solution and what it is if there is one. You can't break it up into too many divisions, and as much as Riggs likes to remind people that they bowl to win and not for the money, there are many of the top teams that do bowl for the money, so taking money away from them isn't necessarily fair either. I've said before, fair is a point of view.
I think the "ideal" solution is making 3 divisions: a championship division, a regular (or whatever you want to call it) and a classified. These would be based on some sort of average (maybe 175 and below, 176 - 205, and 205+...honestly the exact numbers don't matter right now) with only the championship division being eligible for the Eagle. Maybe there should be an option for teams in the other divisions to opt in (for a price) to be Eagle eligible, and the fees all go to the Eagle division prize fund. I put ideal in quotes because no matter what, someone is getting screwed and I'm not sure there's a way around that.
Every time this discussion starts, people post get better as the solution. That isn't a realistic option for everybody. Some people have money issues, some have time issues, and lets face it, some just aren't that good. Some have no opportunity to bowl on a sport shot due only to where they live. Regardless, the USBC Open needs as many people coming as possible. Things like making it impossible for a large portion of the field to cash and having the tourney in Reno every year don't help. If you think my draft is stupid or unfair, propose a different one that meets your definition of fair and reasonable.
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Reno never made sense to me. Most of the population and bowlers live on the East coast. Making everyone travel across the country doesnt make sense.... not like reno is vacation destination.
Wonder what the attendance looks like between knoxville versus Reno??
Secondly, USBC should advertise during leagues. Many league bowlers dont know the national tournament exists.
Im not a fan of posting the pattern... teams layout the shot (maybe not exact conditions, but close), and practice on it for 4 months... the people that go Feb and Mar or dont have a house offering the pattern essentially go in blind.
like anything, when the masses realize they dont not have a realistic chance to cash and their entries are supporting the top 5%, interest stops. Like stated above, its a very expensive trip to go ti an undesirable location, bowl poorly, and have little expextation to even get a small check back.
S^2
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Reno never made sense to me. Most of the population and bowlers live on the East coast. Making everyone travel across the country doesnt make sense.... not like reno is vacation destination.
Wonder what the attendance looks like between knoxville versus Reno??
Secondly, USBC should advertise during leagues. Many league bowlers dont know the national tournament exists.
Im not a fan of posting the pattern... teams layout the shot (maybe not exact conditions, but close), and practice on it for 4 months... the people that go Feb and Mar or dont have a house offering the pattern essentially go in blind.
like anything, when the masses realize they dont not have a realistic chance to cash and their entries are supporting the top 5%, interest stops. Like stated above, its a very expensive trip to go ti an undesirable location, bowl poorly, and have little expextation to even get a small check back.
S^2
Reno makes sense if you look at the bigger picture. Reno has the backing of the casinos, so it can put up a much stronger offer than most cities. Reno also has the NBS. So there are no constructions costs to build and tear down the lanes for the tournament. Reno also offers a better rental rate than most convention centers in other cities: 1) because of the casios backing 2) because it doesn't have outside competition like you would at a convention center with things like car shows, boat shows, etc and 3) It also doesn't have events scheduled year in and year like the aforementioned car shows, boats shows, gun shows, etc that a regular convention would have to get rid of to house the tournament. It is a cost savings to the USBC to have the tournament in Reno. And because of the declining membership and the decision to not raise membership dues, the tournament provides the USBC with a lot of the funding it needs to run.
As far as not posting the pattern, this is wrong. If you don't post it, then you are giving some people an incredible advantage. The pattern will get out, and without posting it publically, only a select few will know it. Then only those people will practice on it and only those people will be prepared. In order to make it fair, it has to be posted for all to see. That way everyone has the opportunity to know it and to practice on it. As to your point, people choose to go in Feb or March, they aren't forced to. That is there choice to go early knowing they won't have much time, if any, to practice on the pattern. If you have a center that won't put out the pattern, then maybe it is time to find a new center. I know for some that isn't possible, but with today's machines there isn't really any reason they can't put it out on an end pair on a Sunday morning for people to practice on. If your center won't do it currently, talk with your fellow bowlers and put together a proposal. Show the center that they can have 5, 10, 15, etc people come in every week that will practice on this pattern for a month or two. Show them how much money they can make for just doing a small amount of extra work. If they still won't do it than that center isn't into making money I guess. But even in that case you still know the pattern and know where you should be playing based on that. There is really no reason not to make it public unless you want to give the regular bowlers even less of a chance to score well and cash.
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USBC OPEN CHAMPIONSHIPS ENTRIES
1980 Louisville, KY 6,269 teams
1981 Memphis, TN 6,400
1982 Baltimore, MD 6,627
1983 Niagara Falls, NY 7,132
1984 Reno, NV 8,380
1985 Tulsa, OK 7,700
1986 Las Vegas, NV 10,019
1987 Niagara Falls, NY 7,480
1988 Jacksonville, FL 7,562
1989 Wichita, KS 7,717
1990 Reno, NV 9,199
1991 Toledo, OH 8,359
1992 Corpus Christi, Texas 8,557
1993 Tulsa, Oklahoma 8,518
1994 Mobile, Alabama 9,285
1995 Reno, Nevada 17,285
1996 Salt Lake City, Utah 9,764
1997 Huntsville, Alabama 9,480
1998 Reno, Nevada 15,925
1999 Syracuse, New York 9,912
2000 Albuquerque, New Mexico 10,688
2001 Reno, Nevada 16,104
2002 Billings, Montana 10,806
2003 Knoxville, Tennessee 12,203
2004 Reno, Nevada 16,585
2005 Baton Rouge, Louisiana 13,222
2006 Corpus Christi, Texas 12,606
2007 Reno, Nevada 16,235
2008 Albuquerque, New Mexico 12,615
2009 Las Vegas, Nevada 17,200
2010 Reno, Nevada 14,109
2011 Reno, Nevada 12,553
2012 Baton Rouge, Louisiana 11,794
2013 Reno, Nevada 10,253 (estimated)
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The major issue with the lane conditions is the fact that you have teams that have access to a bowling alley that can lay down the shot and practice on it for weeks in advance. Learning exactly how to break the lanes down properly. It's an unfair advantage against the 99% of the field that doesnt have this kind of access. The tournament shot shouldn't be posted publicly and lane assignments should be random so you dont have 10 guys working together to create an easier shot.
There are people making a living bowling this tournament. It's a joke.
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The only "fair" (and I use that term loosely) way to do it is 5 on a pair. I don't disagree that the 10 working together have a huge advantage, but lets think this out a little further. Are random lane assignments really fair?
Here's what will happen:
The elite team paired with another good team will still do really well, but not as well as if they were paired with their regular companion team.
The elite team paired with weaker team will not do nearly as well.
The weaker team paired with the elite team might do better depending on how weak they are - they certainly won't do worse. An avereage team paired with an elite team would likely do much better than normal.
The weak team paired with another weak team would be about the same.
The only winner in that situation is the average team that gets placed with an elite team. The only real loser is the elite team almost regardless of who they get placed with. Not sure that's really fair either.
Here's the bigger issue with random lane assignments: many teams go to have fun with their friends and bowl with several teams as a part of a squad. Our group has 30 or so. We enjoy bowling by each other and I think some would be pretty unhappy if we were randomly scattered across the lanes. Maybe we should only be there to bowl and the rest shouldn't matter, but it does to some of our group and I'm sure to many others. We're not winning any titles regardless of who we bowl with.
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+1 to Joe Cool.
I take several teams each year and I want our group to bowl together. I invite people who will get along well with each other and make the experience enjoyable for everyone.
Of course we have a couple of decent teams, but we aren't a threat to win the tournament. I would definitely want to keep the "elite" teams away from my classified teams. Those bowlers are there for the experience and I do not want to have them deal with a team of "serious" bowlers who might be a bunch of jerks because they got a raw deal in the lane draw. I want my bowlers(especially the ones new to the tournament) to enjoy the experience.
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First, very good answer by Joe Cool.
The obvious answer here is one team per lane so each team only impacts itself. However, that requires a rule change that isn't likely to happen (USBC rules require switching lanes).
Random draw is NOT happening, USBC has said because of the thousands of teams that come with friends and will be ticked off if they can't bowl with them.
Wasted energy to argue this issue.
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I'll say this about location...
I live in the Southeastern U.S. I would love to go to Reno ... once. I want to bowl in the stadium. But in order for me to get out there with my family and my equipment would take either a significant investment of time or money, thus making it a once-in-a-lifetime trip on par with a vacation in, say, New Zealand.
There is no way I'm going in back-to-back years, or two out of every three. It doesn't add up financially for me. And given that I'm in that butter zone of averages that has no chance at ever winning a damned thing (180-210), basically the Open is nothing more than a vacation anyway.
On top of that, I find the scheduling requirements for this tournament on the border of being ludicrous. Our association's group (around 50 bowlers) are already taking up money for NEXT year, because they have to lock in hotel reservations, travel dates, etc. I don't know where I'll be 14 months from now, yet I'm supposed to commit to a date?
I full well understand why Reno gets the tournament so often: It's a dependable moneymaker for the USBC more than it is an actual competitive tournament, and Reno all but gives away the stadium. Still, if the USBC continues to focus on Reno so often, it will end up being to the detriment of the tournament itself.
I competed in Baton Rouge and was surprised at how compact the space requirements were. I was expecting much, much more ancillary stuff -- the booths, the video lanes, etc. I guess I shouldn't have been surprised, because I've been to the building that housed the tournament when it was in Mobile, Ala., and was shocked they could fit it all in there. As such, I think the USBC could afford to scale down a little in exchange for rotating cities more often.
Jess
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Jess,
Sorry, but I call BS. Without knowing exactly where you live, I can find flights on Southwest from a bunch of Southeastern US cities for about $425/person, and that was with just a month notice. While I am not saying that isn't an investment, it is nowhere near the cost of a flight to New Zealand. Sure it isn't something you can do monthly, but it isn't much more, if any, than any vacation flight. You can also find deals booking hotels and flights together that would save money on both.
Second, if you feel you "can't win a thing" than you might as well stay home. Coming in with that mind set, you are set up to fail. Instead of practicing or finding ways to get better, you think you have no chance. And in thinking that, you make it correct. Also, you have to book now because you have a large group, 50 bowlers, that is probably around 40-50 rooms needed. Any hotel would ask for a large amount of lead time to set aside that many rooms. You book now so that you can assure the dates/times you want. If your 50 bowlers didn't care when they went, you could wait until later to book and take what you get. This is a choice made by your group, not a requirement.
The USBC will gladly move away from Reno. Why don't you talk to you local Convention Center and get them to bid on the tournament. I am sure they will jump right on it. All they have to do is cancel all their yearly shows for 7-8 months one year, and then hope all these shows will come back the year after the tournament after getting moved out. You claim this tournament being in Reno is about making money, and you are correct. But how loud would you, and all the others complaining about Reno, have screamed if the USBC raised membership fees by $5. Yes, they use the tournament to fund the USBC partially, and part of the reason is they haven't raised the membership dues in something like 5 years. How many other things are still the same price now as 5 years ago? And they have done this with a declining membership. It costs money for the USBC to operate, what they do with that money is up for debate and something I will not defend or spite them for here. But unless they raise membership dues substantially, the only other real source of income is this tournament.
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Jorge,
I don't want this to sound harsh, but we've both been members here for years and often it's appeared to me you don't much consider anyone else's opinion during a discussion/argument. You seem like a swell guy otherwise but I really don't expect you to give me much consideration.
For you to "call BS" on what it takes for me to travel is evidence of this lack of perspective. You skipped over what I said about family travel. If I go, two other people go with me. Then there is time I miss from work (if I don't work, I don't get paid). Then there is the issue of equipment -- do I pay to ship equipment there and back, or do I drive and take it with me, which is 6-8 days round trip by vehicle? I don't own an RV, so that's a lot of hotel/motel stays on the way out and back. Then there is food, incidentals, and whatever I decide to buy at the tournament site itself.
As far as getting better to compete, let's get serious for a minute. Only the top-level amateurs or professionals can win this tournament -- and that's fine, they deserve to.
Me? I had a heart attack two weeks after Baton Rouge in 2012. Then I re-injured my right knee I'd hurt as a teenager. I can't have the surgery to fix the knee due to the drugs I'm taking per my cardiac treatment. So I strap on a knee brace and hope it holds up.
Basically, I have two choices: I can either sandbag like hell and back up into the classified division 2 years from now, where I might actually have a chance, or I can do my best every time I go to my league (only one now, unfortunately), book my 200 average and be out of the running before I ever get to the convention center. I do the latter because I couldn't live with myself if I did the former.
Again, I'm not hating on the guys who win. This is a tournament, not a welfare office we're talking about. But realistically, 90% of the people who enter that tournament have no legitimate shot. They're all hoping to do something heroic, and there's no shame in doubling down on hope. But they're donators. I'm a donator. And while I don't mind donating, I do mind donating plus spending about two grand and losing 1-2 weeks of potential job revenue by going to Reno every time. While what you say about the mechanics of bidding the tournament is true, the reality is it's not going to matter after awhile, because the membership will begin voting with their feet. They already did in 2013, it looks like.
Jess
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Jess,
I am a swell guy, if you get to know me. But I also am a straight-shooter. I have done a lot of international traveling for my work, inlcuding trips to SE Asia. So I know the prices of these tickets. And to say it costs as much to go to Reno as it does to go to New Zealand is BS. As I said in my post, the costs aren't something anyone can do repeatedly, but for a vacation trip, the cost are reasonable. Sure you can always find lower fares to more desirable destinations....but there is a reason for that, the planes are almost always full. I have family in Las Vegas, so trust me, I know how difficult it can be to get tickets on these flights. I also understand what it means to take a family, as my wife and son have accompanied me in the past. So I know the costs to Reno, and to many other cities as well. For the last 3 years I traveled from Calgary to bowl. Try checking on flights from Calgary to Baton Rouge if you think flights to Reno are expensive for you...and we don't have Southwest there. I didn't try to single you out, but I am damn tired of hearing everyone complain about going to Reno so much, when they have nothing to offer as a reasonable substitute. No one wants to pay more for their membership fees, no one wants to help out and put in the time with their local convention center boards to try and get this in their area, and the list goes on and on.
I am very sorry to hear of your health issues, and I wish you a speedy recovery from all of them. There is old saying, and it escapes me who originally said it, that goes like this "Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you are right". I don't think I have to explain it, but that is what I meant by your statement of "can't win a thing". If anyone has that attitude, then you have already lost. I have had 2 of my worst performances ever the last two years at the Open. But when I go back this year, I will be going with the mindset that me and my team have a real shot to win if we all roll well. If you are going to go, you need to be prepared mentally and physically, as much as possible for every person. Going in with a defeatist attitude is already losing 50% of the battle.
There are many reasons tournament participation is down. The overall economy is part of it. But it is also this country's attitude of "me first", I think. All everyone cares about is "Me". And while that is partially a neccessity in today's world, people have taken it too far. Just as I mentioned in my post to you, no one want's their memberships fees to go up by $5, they don't want the USBC to curtail the honor score awards, yet they don't want to go to Reno to keep the tournament costs down so more money can get into the USBC to fund things. Everybody wants and wants, yet no one is willing to give up anything, especially money. This is fueling a lot of people who are "tired of Reno". I am tired of Reno too, I very much would like to get back to traveling to cities all over the country. But those days are gone. Between the Convention Centers being unwilling to lose year after year business and risking that these shows won't ever return, to cities/board unwilling to put together an offer, and the lack of interest in anyone actually getting off their sofa to actually work with their localites....you get Reno time and time again. Everyone wants to complain, but no one is willing to see how much of the problem they really are.
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Jorge300, I agree with you 100%.
I am not sure it matters where the open is held. Someone is going to complain. I go to the open every year to bowl. I could care less where it is held. I do enjoy seeing other cities.
I loved Baton Rouge and Albuquerque, and bowled the best in Vegas.
But it could be in Reno every year and i would still Bowl it.
I am a middle of the road bowler, stuck in the middle. I average 210-220 on THS. Not a whole lot of sport conditions around here. But i could light it up. I have the ability. 10 years at the open and i have shot 1800 once, with a big 6 in singles. That right there is why i go.
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The large majority of the bowlers go to have a good time. Winning or competing in the top is a pipe dream.
History has proven that the teams that win generally have a well planned strategy and are elite bowlers. So, for the rest of us, if we go, we go knowing that the odds are a million to one that we win or compete seriously. Still, we go, to have fun, meet the challenge, and come home with a new perspective.
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I agree only the best can compete and win. Id like to see them not release the oil pattern for the event. Everyone has the same opportunities to figure it out when they bowl instead of planning and practicing on the condition months in advance.
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Kidlost,
This has been gone over time and again. There are no secrets in the world. Someone will know the pattern, and they will tell a few people. If you try to keep the pattern secret, you are only hurting the average bowlers more. First off, there is this thing called the Internet....people that go in March will begin posting about the pattern. Teams that go later will have more info and be better prepared. The only fair thing to do is release it to all. Everyone has the same opportunities then. Everyone can practice on the pattern, if they try hard enough. As I have said before, any center that says they won't put it out can be pursuaded. All you have to do is show them that they can get 5, 10, 15 people to come out and bowl, maybe on a Sunday afternoon when they have limited open play anyway, if they put the pattern down. Any center that still says no, is being ridiculous and throwing away money. This idea is as overplayed as the "I hate Reno" mantra.
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CCrider,
Then why go? If you think that, then there is no reason for you to show up. Look at what BigBaller wrote. He has the right mindset. Where would we be today if people listened to people like you.....telling them that only the chosen few can do things....would Edison have invented the light bulb, would the Wright brothers have invented the airplane, would we have made to the moon, would we even have things like the computer, smart phone, tablet you used to type that message. People told these folks they were crazy, that it was impossible, but they believed in themselves and they got it done. There are examples in bowling too. Look at John Nolen, do think a lot of people were saying he could win the USBC Masters a few years ago? What about Mike Minniman, do you think a lot of people thought he had a chance to win a PBA title when he tried to qualify for the tournament he won? There are many stories of the unknown player coming out of nowhere to win. Yes, the teams that win at the USBC Open are filled with very good players. But there are also teams that make the top 10 that no one expects. Why can't that be us this year? Or BigBallers team? One thing for certain, it won't be your team going in with the attitude you show here.
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Jorge,
I am a firm believer that the underdog can prevail. I just don't believe in luck so much. Piss poor preparation generally leads to piss poor performance.
Tell me, how many people or teams that "surprisingly" made it into the top ten, did so without adequately, obsessively preparing? My guess is not one.
It would be about like a person that bowls league once or twice a week, and never practices outside of that, winning a major. Ain't gonna happen.
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I don't care if its been discussed and if because of the internet you think the usbc couldnt keep it a secret. I disagree. I also dont think it hurts the average bowler. They are going into it blind under the idea its a tough condition ect. Later bowlers always have an advantage and typically bowl later for a reason.
Instead of releasing the exact pattern id rather they do the normal video that says " this years pattern uses a 3 to 1 ratio and is 37' in length. It is designed to challenge bowlers of all skill levels by forcing them to make good shots blah blah blah."
Then show 3 or 4 different style bowlers go out there and bowl on it for a handful of shots and let them give their opinnins on what the condition was like ect and thats it.
I'd say that is very fair. The great bowlers will still go practice on like conditions to prepare and the average bowlers will still practice on their local THS.
Kidlost,
This has been gone over time and again. There are no secrets in the world. Someone will know the pattern, and they will tell a few people. If you try to keep the pattern secret, you are only hurting the average bowlers more. First off, there is this thing called the Internet....people that go in March will begin posting about the pattern. Teams that go later will have more info and be better prepared. The only fair thing to do is release it to all. Everyone has the same opportunities then. Everyone can practice on the pattern, if they try hard enough. As I have said before, any center that says they won't put it out can be pursuaded. All you have to do is show them that they can get 5, 10, 15 people to come out and bowl, maybe on a Sunday afternoon when they have limited open play anyway, if they put the pattern down. Any center that still says no, is being ridiculous and throwing away money. This idea is as overplayed as the "I hate Reno" mantra.
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CCrider,
Then why go? If you think that, then there is no reason for you to show up. Look at what BigBaller wrote. He has the right mindset. Where would we be today if people listened to people like you.....telling them that only the chosen few can do things....would Edison have invented the light bulb, would the Wright brothers have invented the airplane, would we have made to the moon, would we even have things like the computer, smart phone, tablet you used to type that message. People told these folks they were crazy, that it was impossible, but they believed in themselves and they got it done. There are examples in bowling too. Look at John Nolen, do think a lot of people were saying he could win the USBC Masters a few years ago? What about Mike Minniman, do you think a lot of people thought he had a chance to win a PBA title when he tried to qualify for the tournament he won? There are many stories of the unknown player coming out of nowhere to win. Yes, the teams that win at the USBC Open are filled with very good players. But there are also teams that make the top 10 that no one expects. Why can't that be us this year? Or BigBallers team? One thing for certain, it won't be your team going in with the attitude you show here.
Anyone with a functioning brain from the midwest knew Mike Mineman had more than a chance at winning a title. Poor example, but I get your point.
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If only the people with a chance to win go, you don't have a tournament to go to.
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CCrider,
You are 100% correct. I did not mean the "surprise" teams lucked their way into a top 10 finish. But what you say is true for all sports. Playoff football teams in the NFL still hold practices, playoff basketball teams in the NBA still hold practices, etc. I just meant that there are always a few teams that no one would pick that wind up near the top every year. Like anything it takes practrice, teamwork, and great execution of a game plan to prevail...but a little luck never hurts as well.
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Kidlost,
Feel free to disagree, but you are incorrect. People will know the pattern, it won't be kept secret. Only a select few will get this knowledge and they will have a distinct advantage over the rest. Releasing the pattern allows the average bowlers to come in with a knowledge of where they should play the lanes. Now whether or not they can hit that target consistently in another story. You are correct in that the better teams will practice on the condition, while most of the average bowlers will not. But without releasing the pattern you are going widen the gap between these groups even further. By letting everyone know the pattern, and making it available for centers across the country to put it out, you are giving the average bowler a chance to get some practice in on that pattern. It's up to them to take advantage of that, but the opportunity is there. There is no upside what-so-ever for trying to keep the pattern secret, only downside. It's a losing proposition for the USBC to even try to do it.
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If only the people with a chance to win go, you don't have a tournament to go to.
Joe, we already know the fantasy world you live in. One where the USBC can do everything for free and money grows on trees so the USBC doesn't have to worry about funding ever again. Just so we can fit the tournament into a shoebox center in a town that is close to you. So it is no surprise to me that you don't understand the points here. If you think you don't have chance, then you won't have a chance. If you think you can do well, there is more of a chance you will. It's very simple.
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Northface,
I meant no disrespect by my statements about Mike or John. They are both far better bowlers than me and both should be very proud of their accomplishments. I just meant that from a general public standpoint, they were not the names people would have picked to win those events. I am sure there were small groups that knew each them were good enough to win. I could even have used a more recent example....how many people would have picked EJ Tackett to lead the USBC Masters qualifying. While he is a great bowler, his name would not have been first out of most people mouths if asked to pick who would be the #1 seed. Some of it is exposure, some of it is bias of others, some of it is lack of knowledge by others....but whatever the reason, all of the individuals accomplishments I noted would be considered a "surprise" by most. As CCrider said, it's not luck that got them there, it is an incredible amount of skill that di it.
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If only the people with a chance to win go, you don't have a tournament to go to.
Joe, we already know the fantasy world you live in. One where the USBC can do everything for free and money grows on trees so the USBC doesn't have to worry about funding ever again. Just so we can fit the tournament into a shoebox center in a town that is close to you. So it is no surprise to me that you don't understand the points here. If you think you don't have chance, then you won't have a chance. If you think you can do well, there is more of a chance you will. It's very simple.
Just because I proved you wrong in the other thread, you don't have to bring it here pal. You were wrong. It's okay. The world kept spinning.
For those that missed it, Jorge claims that the USBC needs every single thing that they require for someone to bid for the USBC tournament in order to hold the tournament. We all know they don't, but Jorge still thinks they do. They do need all those things to maximize their profits from the tournament, but the tournament is not about profits, it is about crowning a champion and competing. If my "fantasy world" is expecting them to not use the tournament to support the fact that they can't control their finances in the organization, I can live with that.
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Just because I proved you wrong in the other thread, you don't have to bring it here pal. You were wrong. It's okay. The world kept spinning.
For those that missed it, Jorge claims that the USBC needs every single thing that they require for someone to bid for the USBC tournament in order to hold the tournament. We all know they don't, but Jorge still thinks they do. They do need all those things to maximize their profits from the tournament, but the tournament is not about profits, it is about crowning a champion and competing. If my "fantasy world" is expecting them to not use the tournament to support the fact that they can't control their finances in the organization, I can live with that.
Just to make it clear, I don't agree entirely with you Joe so you shouldn't say, "We all know...."
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Joe,
Yes, that is YOUR fantasy world. Not sure how you "proved me wrong" when you ducked questions and never addressed points...but again this is your fantasy world that has nothing to do with reality. Let me make perfectly clear, so even you can understand it: In a perfect world, what you say is true, but in reality it doesn't work. Reality is no one, except you of course right, wants to pay higher membership fees. So because of the fact that the USBC hasn't raised fees in 5 years (or something close to that), and membership is declining, the money to actually run the business has to come from somewhere. Some of that comes from monies collected at the USBC tournament. It is a fact of life. Now, is it possible the USBC could cut some costs, probably, but neither you nor I can say that for certainty. So unless YOU Joe Cool are willing to fund the lost revenue through a higher membership fee.....the ancilliary items with the tournament need to be there. And I would suspect people would complain if they weren't there. Hopefully this sinks in this time....cause I am getting tired of repeating reality to you time and time again. Live in your fantasy world on your time, and leave these forums to adults to discuss real topics.
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My biggest problem right now is when they announce the pattern.
It is done just a couple days before the tournament begins.
To me this devalues the early entries into the tournament as they have no chance to practice on the lanes and set up their equipment. They could only practice on the special coaching lanes at the stadium.
Yes, most of these early teams have no chance and probably would not practice much on the pattern before hand but they should have the chance.
There is no reason why the pattern could not be announced at least 1 month in advance of the tournament.
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Pinbuster,
I agree with your sentiment. But I think logistics get in the way. When the tournament is in Reno (which yes we know is a lot lately), they could do this. But the years the tournament is not, it would be very hard to release it that early. First they have to build the lanes in the convention center. Once that is done they put out a shot and get local bowlers to come in and "test" the pattern (here again is where you can't keep it secret for those who complain about that). If they don't see the results they want, they may tweak the pattern a little, i.e. more/less volume, more/less length, etc. Only when they are happy do they settle on a pattern and release it. When in a convention center setting, you can't get in early enough to biuld the lanes and test patterns in order to release it that early. Since you can't do it those years, you can't do it any year. So it is released near the end of February each year. Speaking of which, has anyone heard when the release date is this year?
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They are to release it today at 4 PM eastern.
I know they play around with the shot and I'm not sure how much they really play around with it anymore. With synthetics, new lane machines and the lanes are suppose to meet level standards how much difference could there really be?
I'm betting they have been playing with the shot on training center lanes in Dallas for a couple of months.
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Pinbuster,
I agree with your sentiment. But I think logistics get in the way. When the tournament is in Reno (which yes we know is a lot lately), they could do this. But the years the tournament is not, it would be very hard to release it that early. First they have to build the lanes in the convention center. Once that is done they put out a shot and get local bowlers to come in and "test" the pattern (here again is where you can't keep it secret for those who complain about that). If they don't see the results they want, they may tweak the pattern a little, i.e. more/less volume, more/less length, etc. Only when they are happy do they settle on a pattern and release it. When in a convention center setting, you can't get in early enough to biuld the lanes and test patterns in order to release it that early. Since you can't do it those years, you can't do it any year. So it is released near the end of February each year. Speaking of which, has anyone heard when the release date is this year?
It's today when they release the pattern!
I agree on the early bowlers not having the fairest shake, but it is what it is. My group always goes in March, but we try to get as much knowledge as possible. Funny story- a few years ago I left Reno in 28th place in singles; I was so excited to actually break 700 (707). By the time I got home, I was down to 75th place.
It's just the way it goes. I like going early, it gets me a winter vacation, and I don't really like bowling in May or June like some of my friends do every year. If I did that, I'd miss my kids' baseball games, etc.
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They are to release it today at 4 PM eastern.
I know they play around with the shot and I'm not sure how much they really play around with it anymore. With synthetics, new lane machines and the lanes are suppose to meet level standards how much difference could there really be?
I'm betting they have been playing with the shot on training center lanes in Dallas for a couple of months.
Pinbuster, I would assume they do some testing at the training center in Dallas, or maybe even at the Kegel traning center in Florida (I think that is where it is). But the shot will always play different in the NBS or whatever convention center they are in. The venues are just different...different size, different weather, etc.. I believe they still tweak the pattern so it plays the way they want it to once they are in the center. This may all have changed, but that is how it used to be.
Thanks for the heads up, not sure I will be able to watch it live, but maybe I can catch a recording of it tonight.
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Just because I proved you wrong in the other thread, you don't have to bring it here pal. You were wrong. It's okay. The world kept spinning.
For those that missed it, Jorge claims that the USBC needs every single thing that they require for someone to bid for the USBC tournament in order to hold the tournament. We all know they don't, but Jorge still thinks they do. They do need all those things to maximize their profits from the tournament, but the tournament is not about profits, it is about crowning a champion and competing. If my "fantasy world" is expecting them to not use the tournament to support the fact that they can't control their finances in the organization, I can live with that.
Just to make it clear, I don't agree entirely with you Joe so you shouldn't say, "We all know...."
Fair enough. Anybody smart enough to see what is really going on knows I'm right. I stand corrected.
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I wonder Joe, what should be the goal of the tournament? To break even, operate at a loss or operate at a profit?
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I wonder Joe, what should be the goal of the tournament? To break even, operate at a loss or operate at a profit?
Certainly not to lose money or make money. If USBC isn't self sufficient on its own, it needs to fix the issues that created that problem, not turn the tournament into the only thing keeping them afloat and where profit is the only thing that matters.
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Joe,
Why would a bowling tourmanment run to just break even? Every tournament is put together to make money, to make a profit. Again, that is reality. No tournament exists to break even. That is one of the most ridiculous things you have ever said, and the list of ridiculous things you have said is very long, and highly ridiculous. You have outdone yourself this time.
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Just an FYI about the pattern getting out if they tried to keep it secret.
The man who sets the pattern, bowls in the tournament.
You'd think there would be people crying foul if the pattern was a secret and his team magically won?
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txbowler,
I don't think they have to win to have a firestorm erupt, all they would have to do is do well. Plus anyone of the people who "test" the pattern in the centers/NBS prior to release. There are a large group of people who "see" the pattern prior to the start of the tournament. But to some on here if they didn't release the pattern, all these people will magically keep their mouths shut about it. It is a fools errand to think so.
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txbowler,
I don't think they have to win to have a firestorm erupt, all they would have to do is do well. Plus anyone of the people who "test" the pattern in the centers/NBS prior to release. There are a large group of people who "see" the pattern prior to the start of the tournament. But to some on here if they didn't release the pattern, all these people will magically keep their mouths shut about it. It is a fools errand to think so.
Jorge
I fully agree with you.
I was just pointing out an easy flaw in the keeping it secret debate.
And people would also suspect that the training center in Arlington would have something on the lanes that plays real close even though the pattern is secret.
The training center in Arlington had the pattern last year. We practiced as a 10 member team 4 times on that pattern. Every pair in the training center played slightly different on the team pattern and broke down slightly different. Why, guys tried different balls with different surface at each session.
And when we got to Reno, we practiced on the showcase lanes which played totally different than Arlington.
Then we finally bowled our team squad and they played close to what we saw in Arlington but had to use a different ball than I used in any practice session.
So my advise would be, lay out a sport pattern of the same length and volume as close as possible to the pattern as you can get and practice on it as a team for 3 games. It will give you a general idea of the type of reaction and/or lack of reaction you will see at Reno and how it may breakdown.
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txbowler,
I don't think they have to win to have a firestorm erupt, all they would have to do is do well. Plus anyone of the people who "test" the pattern in the centers/NBS prior to release. There are a large group of people who "see" the pattern prior to the start of the tournament. But to some on here if they didn't release the pattern, all these people will magically keep their mouths shut about it. It is a fools errand to think so.
Jorge
I fully agree with you.
I was just pointing out an easy flaw in the keeping it secret debate.
And people would also suspect that the training center in Arlington would have something on the lanes that plays real close even though the pattern is secret.
The training center in Arlington had the pattern last year. We practiced as a 10 member team 4 times on that pattern. Every pair in the training center played slightly different on the team pattern and broke down slightly different. Why, guys tried different balls with different surface at each session.
And when we got to Reno, we practiced on the showcase lanes which played totally different than Arlington.
Then we finally bowled our team squad and they played close to what we saw in Arlington but had to use a different ball than I used in any practice session.
So my advise would be, lay out a sport pattern of the same length and volume as close as possible to the pattern as you can get and practice on it as a team for 3 games. It will give you a general idea of the type of reaction and/or lack of reaction you will see at Reno and how it may breakdown.
I agree, there is NO way to duplicate the actual pattern you see at the stadium. Sure you can get close to it, but just the lane topography of the stadium lanes and the pattern memory of wherever you are practicing on it will be different. We set it up at my center last year with the Ice oil and while it played somewhat similar it wasn't the same. It basically gave us an idea of what balls to use and where to play.
Even at the BJ tourney, for me they played a lot tighter than what I had on the Minor squads. The only way to have equality is to release the pattern. Granted not everyone has the ability to practice on the "shot" But out of all the bowlers that go there's probably only a small percentage of people who would want to. Let's remember out of the 10K teams that attend, only about 3% (if that many) have a logical chance at winning an Eagle.
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Jess,
I am a swell guy, if you get to know me. But I also am a straight-shooter. I have done a lot of international traveling for my work, inlcuding trips to SE Asia. So I know the prices of these tickets. And to say it costs as much to go to Reno as it does to go to New Zealand is BS..... and a bunch of other stuff...
Jorge,
A few things...
1) About three years ago, my wife and I were offered round-trip airfare to New Zealand as part of a travel package for about $1500 for the two of us. I have never priced tickets there at any other time, although with the length of the flight alone I would assume I got a pretty good deal. We didn't take it. The trip was going to be 5-6 days total so $1500 plus whatever it would have cost us to stay there. We would have had transportation provided to us. As for Reno, there are now three of us in the family, airfare is about $550/person but does not include equipment transport, nor does it account for transportation once we're there. I'm sure Reno is still cheaper on the whole but I don't care if it's close, I care that we're talking about two trips in the same general vein -- something to save up for.
2) You say "no one wants their membership fees to go up $5." You talk to everyone with a card before making that statement? Because I'd double mine if I knew the USBC would properly spend the revenue. If you could guarantee me they'd send the tourney to Reno a maximum of once every three years, that would be good enough for me.
I have two points about the tournament. One is short to make -- location. The USBC can move the thing around, they just don't like the offers they get, or they're afraid the space made available to them isn't enough. So instead of compromising on their end, they ask us to compromise on our end. Eventually, they won't need more than about 30-40 lanes to run the tournament if this keeps up, because Reno fatigue is real and the numbers prove my point. I hope to go once, then I will never go more than a day's drive away from my house again, because of the cost and the hassle. I don't have unlimited time or resources.
The longer point to make is about what the tournament is. I've never understood why handicap wasn't allowed, but if it's a scratch-only tournament, fine -- consider making a third division. Right now, Classified is what, somewhere around 165-170? Then they throw everyone else in the same pot, a range of about 70 pins of average and untold differences in ability. A 200-average bowler has far more in common with a 160 Classified bowler than he does a 240 guy with a regional PBA membership card. I would like to see a cutoff at 200/210, call it Super Classified, whatever. Let it be voluntary -- if you want to compete for a real Eagle, no problem, go bowl with the big boys. Otherwise, roll the middle division where you belong and actually compete with people of like ability. That was kind of the point behind handicap at the start, but as averages have crept up over the years, the system hasn't adapted.
The whole positive-thinking thing about believing you can beat the best is a feel-good story, but it isn't realistic. There's not a rec league basketball player on the globe that could beat Kevin Durant in a game of one-on-one, no matter how much he believes he might. I'd love to know how many Eagles have been won by guys without at least one of the following: PBA card, multiple PBA regional cashes or at least a top-5 finish in an amateur high-roller. I'd bet the answer is "not many."
Jess
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Jess,
I can speak from experience, that $1500 deal weas a steal and you should have jumped on it. That would probably about the cost per ticket normally, if not more. And I have shown that $550/person is also not the real cost to Reno. You can find cheaper tickets than that, but of course, that would ruin your point. Don't most people "save up" for vacations? The bigger the vacation the longer you save. I plan to take my family to Hawaii next year, we are beginning to save now for that. Just like if I wanted to take my family to Reno, we would save for that. That is how things work for the majority of people. You act like this is something only you do.
You are by far the exception to the rule. I speak metaphorically, but I would bet you a trip to Reno that if you asked the majority of the USBC members would not support the raising of their membership fees. And even your exception has a caveat to it. You say they have to guarantee Reno only once every 3 years.....that is not something anyone can do. Look at what happened in 2011 (I believe it was). It was schedule to be in Wichita, but they had to back out. So the tournament had no other real option but to come back to Reno with such short notice.
I don't mean to pick on you specifically, but I am sick and tired of hearing these unrealistic arguements. You ( and I mean all of those with them) act like it is so easy to just pick a city, and that the USBC purposely does not choose cities. Have you done as I asked and talked to your local convention center board? I already know the answer is no. DO you really think there are bunches of cities sending in offers every year? What convention center in it's right mind would tempt losing routine yearly customers like flower, gun, boat, or car shows just to bring in this tournament for 1 year? And just like others have forgotten, the idea of a business is to make money, the tournament is a business, just like any tournament is. No one runs any tournament to lose money or just break even. So why should the USBC Open pick an offer that isn't the best? The numbers from Baton Rouge didn't skyrocket after being in Reno back to back years. Based on your theory we should have seen a dramtic increase in teams, but we didn't. In fact, there were less than before. Of course when faced with this dilema we hear the excuses come out like " well people stopped going after Reno-fatigue", or "BR isn't really East" or "It was (pick your least favorite political figure and insert here)'s fault". Maybe you'll have something new....maybe blame it on aliens and UFO's. The number of teams are dropping for a variety of reasons, membership overall is dropping, the economic downturn of 2008 is still effecting a lot of people are two reason why.
A lot of people have no issue with creating a 3rd division. Heck, even call it the Eagle division so that people know this is where you need to bowl to win an Eagle. But just because someone average 230-240 on THS, doesn't mean they are contenders for an Eagle. There are many 230 average THS bowlers that struggle to average 200 at the Open. I know a few of them personally. And also, you act like a PBA membership is such a big thing. The qualifications to become a PBA member are incredibly easy. All you have to do is average 200 on THS. You can then pay your membership fee and you are a member. The same people you are claiming can't compete are PBA member eligible.
And your last paragraph is a lot of hot air, but not much else. As I said previously, it is not hard to become a PBA member. I am sure there are more PBA Members with multiple regional cashes that haven't won Eagles than their are ones that did. I, for one, have multiple PBA regional cashes including finishing as high as 3rd once, but I have no Eagles. Now I have never felt that I would get enough value out of being a PBA Member to join, but I meet their criteria. And is that a top 5 finish ever in an amateur high roller or just recently? I mean really, these are some of the weakest arguements I have ever seen. We all know good bowlers, the best bowlers are the ones that win Eagles, as it should be. But going in thinking you have no chance, is going to guarantee you will fail. How many stories do we see on Sportscenter of some kid dunking on, faking out, making a great play against an NBA player during one of their camps? There are usually 1 or 2 every summer. I am not saying that just believing you can do well, will win you an Eagle. But thinking you have no chance, will guarantee that you don't win an Eagle, no matter how good you are.
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Jorge,
I live in a town of 30k. My "convention center board" hosts craft fairs. So no, we won't be getting a tournament any time soon. There are 4-5 cities in my state (Ala.) that have facilities large enough to support the tournament at the size the USBC currently requires. Two of them have already held it within the last 20 years (Huntsville, Mobile), so I don't think the USBC wants to come back to a small state three times in such a short timeframe. I believe the USBC could downsize the venue footprint a bit and perhaps open up some other potential sites, but until they do, we're stuck with what we have.
I don't hold anything against the USBC for going to Reno when Wichita backed out. Emergency situations require emergency response.
I just looked up a Southwest flight to Reno, it's $576/person one-way from BHM to RNO unless I buy a non-refundable ticket, which I would never do so far out in advance. That's not the closest airport to me, but I have family there so I wouldn't have to also pay long-term parking fees. The closest airport doesn't offer Southwest, and I would have to take a puddle-jumper to a connecting flight in ATL. I've run into problems with those carriers with overweight baggage fees, plus the fares are $600+ anyway.
So I'm looking at $3600 in round-trip airline ticket fees (three people) alone after tax. The alternative is to block out two weeks, rent an RV and drive it. I've never rented an RV before so I don't know what the costs are, but I'm betting I'd be on the hook for about $800 in diesel for the trip (2500-3000 mi.).
We even looked into Amtrak a couple of years ago; it's a 4-day trip each way and unless you want to sit upright in a seat all eight days, you have to rent a sleeper. Almost unbelievably, that option is more expensive than the plane -- $4100 round trip.
By contrast, Baton Rouge cost me a tank of gas each way.
Jess
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I'm not going back to read 65 replies. Why is it airfare for 3 people?
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Jess,
See, it gets clearer by the day. You are adding fees because of your choices. YOU want a refundable ticket. That adds fees. If you want to go cheaper, by non-refundable....oh but you won't so don't complain it cost so much to fly when it is your own choices that are raising the fare. And driving takes 2 weeks?!? How slow do you drive? I drove from Calgary to Reno last year, it took 2 days. I drove from Houston to Alberqurque in 1 day. And you can save on bag fees by shipping your equipment. FedEx is cheap, or use BBE. There are many ways to cut costs which you either purposely (which is my thought) or unintenionally forgot to include. I can say it costs me $ 2000 to get to Reno from Northern California, if I really wanted to, but it isn't realistic and neither are your figures.
Again, anything to avoid doing the work or admitting you are wrong. Now it is that YOU don't think the USBC want to go back to Alabama again. Yet you will gleefully complain about going to Reno, again. All you have to do is take the time to ask. Whether it's your hometown, or a neighboring larger town. I want someone to do this so they can see what the USBC is up against. So you can see that the majority of town have no interest in hosting the tournament because it disrupts their yearly business and potentially drives away that business. And that has nothing to do with size. But since you brought it up, I guess you are then willing to add an additional $5 to your membership over the $5 you willingly agreed to earlier. Because now you are costing the tournament even more revenue by removing rent from the booths that would go away with a smaller footprint. Heck I bet you would even be willing to up it to a cool extra $20/year (the $5 from earlier, the $5 from above and an additional $10) so we can cut the lanes down to 24 instead of 48 and just hold the tournament through September instead of July right?
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I'm not going back to read 65 replies. Why is it airfare for 3 people?
Dude, Mrs. Dude and little Dude. ;D ;D
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FYI
Southwest tickets that are "wanna get away" fares are not refundable, but are reusable with no penalty...so if something happened, you would have a full year to use the full credit....
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Milorafferty,
I'm sure you've probably heard this, but why not fly to Sacramento (2hrs away) or San Francisco (3.5hrs) & drive. The difference in cost will pay for your rental car and bowling ball shipping. I do this every time we go to Reno since I'm in upstate NY. I'm flying out 1-stop for under $400!
Only issue is I wouldn't drive if you go in March or early April because Donner Pass can still get some snow.
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Milorafferty,
I'm sure you've probably heard this, but why not fly to Sacramento (2hrs away) or San Francisco (3.5hrs) & drive. The difference in cost will pay for your rental car and bowling ball shipping. I do this every time we go to Reno since I'm in upstate NY. I'm flying out 1-stop for under $400!
Only issue is I wouldn't drive if you go in March or early April because Donner Pass can still get some snow.
Because I live in Stockton, CA. About 2 1/2 hours away. 8)
You must have me confused with Jess. I don't know why anyone has a problem with Reno, it costs me very little to bowl the open when it's at the stadium. People here need to consider MY needs and stop being so selfish! ;D
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:-[ My reply should have been directed at Jess.
I guess that's what I get for not reading more thoroughly! My bad ;D
Milorafferty,
I'm sure you've probably heard this, but why not fly to Sacramento (2hrs away) or San Francisco (3.5hrs) & drive. The difference in cost will pay for your rental car and bowling ball shipping. I do this every time we go to Reno since I'm in upstate NY. I'm flying out 1-stop for under $400!
Only issue is I wouldn't drive if you go in March or early April because Donner Pass can still get some snow.
Because I live in Stockton, CA. About 2 1/2 hours away. 8)
You must have me confused with Jess. I don't know why anyone has a problem with Reno, it costs me very little to bowl the open when it's at the stadium. People here need to consider MY needs and stop being so selfish! ;D
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:-[ My reply should have been directed at Jess.
I guess that's what I get for not reading more thoroughly! My bad ;D
Milorafferty,
I'm sure you've probably heard this, but why not fly to Sacramento (2hrs away) or San Francisco (3.5hrs) & drive. The difference in cost will pay for your rental car and bowling ball shipping. I do this every time we go to Reno since I'm in upstate NY. I'm flying out 1-stop for under $400!
Only issue is I wouldn't drive if you go in March or early April because Donner Pass can still get some snow.
Because I live in Stockton, CA. About 2 1/2 hours away. 8)
You must have me confused with Jess. I don't know why anyone has a problem with Reno, it costs me very little to bowl the open when it's at the stadium. People here need to consider MY needs and stop being so selfish! ;D
No problem.
Personally, I think Jess should just move closer to the stadium. Then it would not cost him so much to get there. ;D
Look at Jorge, he lived in Canada, realized how expensive it was, so he moved closer. Problem solved.
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Thanks for the clarification. No little Dudes here and Mrs. Dude has never been and will never be invited on any boys trips so I wasn't understanding the mathematics.
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Actually Milo, I just wanted to be closer to you. I need the lessons. Closer to the NBS is just a bonus. ;D :P :o
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Actually Milo, I just wanted to be closer to you. I need the lessons. Closer to the NBS is just a bonus. ;D :P :o
LOL
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Jess,
See, it gets clearer by the day. You are adding fees because of your choices. YOU want a refundable ticket. That adds fees. If you want to go cheaper, by non-refundable....oh but you won't so don't complain it cost so much to fly when it is your own choices that are raising the fare. And driving takes 2 weeks?!? How slow do you drive? I drove from Calgary to Reno last year, it took 2 days. I drove from Houston to Alberqurque in 1 day. And you can save on bag fees by shipping your equipment. FedEx is cheap, or use BBE. There are many ways to cut costs which you either purposely (which is my thought) or unintenionally forgot to include. I can say it costs me $ 2000 to get to Reno from Northern California, if I really wanted to, but it isn't realistic and neither are your figures.
Again, anything to avoid doing the work or admitting you are wrong. Now it is that YOU don't think the USBC want to go back to Alabama again. Yet you will gleefully complain about going to Reno, again. All you have to do is take the time to ask. Whether it's your hometown, or a neighboring larger town. I want someone to do this so they can see what the USBC is up against. So you can see that the majority of town have no interest in hosting the tournament because it disrupts their yearly business and potentially drives away that business. And that has nothing to do with size. But since you brought it up, I guess you are then willing to add an additional $5 to your membership over the $5 you willingly agreed to earlier. Because now you are costing the tournament even more revenue by removing rent from the booths that would go away with a smaller footprint. Heck I bet you would even be willing to up it to a cool extra $20/year (the $5 from earlier, the $5 from above and an additional $10) so we can cut the lanes down to 24 instead of 48 and just hold the tournament through September instead of July right?
Replies...
1. Non-refundable tickets were $376. That cuts airfare from ~$3600 to $2258, but that's still major outlay for my family. If it's not a problem for your family, fine, but I'm getting somewhat tired of defending how my family chooses (or is required) to budget. That's really only my business, no one else's.
2. Driving takes two weeks? No, driving round-trip takes 6-8 days from where I live depending on how far I want to push it. I'm 26 hours away by vehicle, presuming no travel delays. That means I either have to rent an RV I can sleep in, or I have to pay 6-8 hotel/motel stays along the way. My wife can't spend lots of continuous time sitting -- but then again, there's something else of which the details are really no one else's business but mine. And then there's 6-8 travel days of meals for three. And we haven't counted the actual costs in Reno yet.
3. I'm perplexed by your accusation that I'm "purposefully forgetting" places I can cut costs. If anything, I'm leaving costs OUT. I haven't figured in overweight bag fees, or shipping costs using BBE or FedEx. I can if you want, but that's just going to make my point stand even more clearly.
4. As for the future of the tournament itself, it's not going to thrive or fail based on my meager donations to the cause. My prediction is that the more frequent the tournament goes to Reno -- or any other single, repeating location -- the more total entries are going to decline. Our little association took 50-something people to Baton Rouge. As it stands now, 10 are planning to go to Reno.
I am confounded by how important this all is to you, as if bowlers owed you an explanation for not going to this or that location. I was trying to give you some insight into the choices people-not-named-Jorge have to make but you're obviously not interested in anyone's viewpoint but your own.
Jess
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It's really simple. Jorge just doesn't want to see it because it shoots his whole point out of the water.
USBC demands things they don't need to hold the tournament so that more cities don't bid, and they can make the extra money they make and save the money they save holding it in Reno (and now Vegas). That's a fact that cannot be denied. No other logical inference can be made. He talks of others being unrealistic, yet completely ignores this simple fact that makes his entire case unrealistic.
I love people like that. The know-it-alls that actually know nothing, but kick and scream until they are blue in the face that they are right and everyone else is wrong...
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Have any of you actually seen the profit and loss breakdown on each tournament? You can assume anything that you want to about where more money is made, but that does not mean you are correct or have proven anything.
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Have any of you actually seen the profit and loss breakdown on each tournament? You can assume anything that you want to about where more money is made, but that does not mean you are correct or have proven anything.
Come on CC, don't petty little things like facts get in the way of this argument. :o ;D
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Jess,
As I have said many times, and you have chosen to ignore, is that this isn't anything personal with you. It has to do with yours and others attitudes about the USBC Open.
So you are taking 6 people to open, cause last time I checked 376 x 3 = $1128 not $2258. You claim I am being unrealistic and yet you all of sudden doubled the number of people going?!? Anything to try and prove your point I guess. And I have never said it isn't a cost, what I said is if you are taking the family, it is a family vacation. And 99% of people, myself included, but money aside for these types of trips. For whatever reason, you feel you should be exempt from this. My question is why? And yes, you are taking the most expensive way of doing everything. If you ship equipment you will not have bag fees, overweight bag fees, etc. And it would be cheaper than paying those. You seem to be doing everything in your power to show that it costs an arm and a leg and your first born child to get to Reno....instead of talking realistic prices and alternatives. No one thinks, at least that I have seen in here, that this trip should come from your spare change, as you seem to take it as.
And lastly, no one owes me anything. YOU came on here, just like other before to complain out of your own free will. I did not hold a gun to your head to make you post. I am just trying to point out how incorrect your thinking is and why you need to look at the bigger picture. I am not trying to talk anyone into going or not going. That is everyone's own choice. Why is it so important to YOU??? You are the one coming back post after post to prove your way of thinking is correct. I am just shooting holes in every one of your arguements. And like usual on these boards, when you can't back up what you say in fact, you attack the person. At this point, I hope you don't go to Reno, cause your right, the tournament itself will not notice if you go or don't. But then at least this thread can die and we won't have to listen to your whining any more.
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Joe Cool,
I see you slithered your way back, or did you just ooze up through the floorboards?
Now it's the USBC's fault, they are trying to get cities not to bid??? I am guessing you also think it is their fault we have Obamacare? They also caused WWII, gout, and those nasty little rings around the bathtub in everyone's home but yours of course. They only appear when you use it so that leaves you safe, stinky but safe. Funny the only "kicking and screaming" I see, is from you and Jess. I have given you fact after fact. The response I get from you.....you holding your fingers in your ears screaming "I can't hear you" like a spoiled child. I have never claimed to have the right answer, just stating the obvious and realistic truth. Everyone has acknowledged that in a perfect world, you are correct. The USBC Open should just be about bowling. But guess what, this isn't a perfect world. YOU refuse to acknowledge that, instead you want to continue to hold thoses ears closed and scream louder, or attack me personally like above. Well the only fact that has proven beyond a shadow of doubt...is that you are complete idiot. And you continue to prove that with every post you make. So Congrats....you accomplished your goal! You have proven something.
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I think USBC should have moved the headquarters to Reno instead of Dallas. 8)
Why didn't they consider my personal expense if I wanted to visit?
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I think USBC should have moved the headquarters to Reno instead of Dallas. 8)
Why didn't they consider my personal expense if I wanted to visit?
I'm guessing it's Obama's fault, or Bush's, depending on your political leanings.
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I think USBC should have moved the headquarters to Reno instead of Dallas. 8)
Why didn't they consider my personal expense if I wanted to visit?
I'm guessing it's Obama's fault, or Bush's, depending on your political leanings.
I blame both of them. And the Pope too.
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Joe Cool,
I see you slithered your way back, or did you just ooze up through the floorboards?
Now it's the USBC's fault, they are trying to get cities not to bid??? I am guessing you also think it is their fault we have Obamacare? They also caused WWII, gout, and those nasty little rings around the bathtub in everyone's home but yours of course. They only appear when you use it so that leaves you safe, stinky but safe. Funny the only "kicking and screaming" I see, is from you and Jess. I have given you fact after fact. The response I get from you.....you holding your fingers in your ears screaming "I can't hear you" like a spoiled child. I have never claimed to have the right answer, just stating the obvious and realistic truth. Everyone has acknowledged that in a perfect world, you are correct. The USBC Open should just be about bowling. But guess what, this isn't a perfect world. YOU refuse to acknowledge that, instead you want to continue to hold thoses ears closed and scream louder, or attack me personally like above. Well the only fact that has proven beyond a shadow of doubt...is that you are complete idiot. And you continue to prove that with every post you make. So Congrats....you accomplished your goal! You have proven something.
I love Reno and Vegas. I call a spade a spade. You don't have to like it, but the situation speaks for itself. You keep living in USBC is great lala land if you want. It's getting to be a more and more lonely place by the day.
While you continue to attack me, you do nothing to refute what I said. That's because you can't, so you shoot the messenger. Classic tool of those that have nothing backing them.
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Joe Cool,
I see you slithered your way back, or did you just ooze up through the floorboards?
Now it's the USBC's fault, they are trying to get cities not to bid??? I am guessing you also think it is their fault we have Obamacare? They also caused WWII, gout, and those nasty little rings around the bathtub in everyone's home but yours of course. They only appear when you use it so that leaves you safe, stinky but safe. Funny the only "kicking and screaming" I see, is from you and Jess. I have given you fact after fact. The response I get from you.....you holding your fingers in your ears screaming "I can't hear you" like a spoiled child. I have never claimed to have the right answer, just stating the obvious and realistic truth. Everyone has acknowledged that in a perfect world, you are correct. The USBC Open should just be about bowling. But guess what, this isn't a perfect world. YOU refuse to acknowledge that, instead you want to continue to hold thoses ears closed and scream louder, or attack me personally like above. Well the only fact that has proven beyond a shadow of doubt...is that you are complete idiot. And you continue to prove that with every post you make. So Congrats....you accomplished your goal! You have proven something.
I love Reno and Vegas. I call a spade a spade. You don't have to like it, but the situation speaks for itself. You keep living in USBC is great lala land if you want. It's getting to be a more and more lonely place by the day.
While you continue to attack me, you do nothing to refute what I said. That's because you can't, so you shoot the messenger. Classic tool of those that have nothing backing them.
Vegas works for me too. I can drive there in 5 or 6 hours, so I am cool with that. ;D
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Joe,
See right there is your problem. I am not saying the USBC is great. I am not saying anything like that. In fact, if you read Riggs blog, I would fully support his model for the future of bowling organizations. But I am realistic. Until something changes, you have to deal with real life. Not some fantasy of what you want the USBC Open to be. You refuse to do that. That is the issue.
And you can't refute what I say, so you resort to name calling.....ROFLMAO....you going to go there even after I called you out on it, more than once. Excellent. Not only are you an idiot, but you are a tool as well. Want to steal any thing else i've said about you?!?
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Jess,
As I have said many times, and you have chosen to ignore, is that this isn't anything personal with you. It has to do with yours and others attitudes about the USBC Open.
So you are taking 6 people to open, cause last time I checked 376 x 3 = $1128 not $2258. You claim I am being unrealistic and yet you all of sudden doubled the number of people going?!? Anything to try and prove your point I guess. And I have never said it isn't a cost, what I said is if you are taking the family, it is a family vacation. And 99% of people, myself included, but money aside for these types of trips. For whatever reason, you feel you should be exempt from this. My question is why? And yes, you are taking the most expensive way of doing everything. If you ship equipment you will not have bag fees, overweight bag fees, etc. And it would be cheaper than paying those. You seem to be doing everything in your power to show that it costs an arm and a leg and your first born child to get to Reno....instead of talking realistic prices and alternatives. No one thinks, at least that I have seen in here, that this trip should come from your spare change, as you seem to take it as.
And lastly, no one owes me anything. YOU came on here, just like other before to complain out of your own free will. I did not hold a gun to your head to make you post. I am just trying to point out how incorrect your thinking is and why you need to look at the bigger picture. I am not trying to talk anyone into going or not going. That is everyone's own choice. Why is it so important to YOU??? You are the one coming back post after post to prove your way of thinking is correct. I am just shooting holes in every one of your arguements. And like usual on these boards, when you can't back up what you say in fact, you attack the person. At this point, I hope you don't go to Reno, cause your right, the tournament itself will not notice if you go or don't. But then at least this thread can die and we won't have to listen to your whining any more.
Jorge,
That's $378 per ticket ONE WAY. Are the three of us supposed to stay in Reno permanently? Next time you go "shooting holes in my argument," make sure you count to two first. Last I checked, all trips had two ways.
Total cost of a flying Reno trip, 4 days (travel day out and back, two tournament days) is going to run me anywhere from $2500 - $5000 depending on whether I take the cheap route or the expensive route. Am I supposed to do that every year? I'm sure my son would like to go to Disneyworld. Well, I can fit 2-3 trips per year into the same budget hole if I wanted to do that. I could take my wife for a three-day stay at a beach eight times for the same amount of money.
I started off being civil, trying to help you understand something you clearly didn't understand. Since your reading comprehension continues to be an issue, I'll itemize this summary to make it easier.
1. You haven't "shot holes" in any argument I've made. You just turn up the volume and hope you can out-shout people.
2. How much I spend or how I choose to travel is not your business. You don't know me, my family or how important it is to me to make sure we don't spend our annual travel budget on something that benefits only me. My wife and son don't want to spend every vacation watching me bowl.
3. The USBC will have a problem if it doesn't get away from Reno more often. Right now, the tournament mostly services (1.) people who are comfortably retired and can travel at their own pace, (2.) pro, semi-pro and high-level amateurs who would bowl in this thing even if it were in Fairbanks, Alaska, in the middle of January, (3.) West Coast and plains states bowlers within a day's drive of the venue, and (4.) self-schedulers, i.e. business owners or other professionals, for whom neither the cost nor the time component is an issue. Essentially the entire blue-collar membership east of the Mississippi gets told to pound sand.
4. Reno should get the tournament no more than once every three years, period. If the USBC has to take a loss to hold it elsewhere, so be it. Otherwise, quit pretending this is a national championship and call it what it's turning into, which is a western superregional. Besides, if the USBC is leaning so heavily on a single event to fund the organization, the organization itself has some serious viability issues.
5. You keep harping on this thing where no one has a right to complain unless they've gone to their local chamber of commerce and tried to get them to bid on the tournament. File that under "not my job." And you also seem to think this tournament is a convention of lepers, something no one wants in their town. I guess Baton Rouge was just desperate, right? The fact is the USBC could downsize the footprint and restructure the format if it wants to, it just doesn't want to because of the point I made way back in my first post: Reno gives the USBC a sweetheart deal to host it there. Pity that means the tournament gets further away from its roots.
Jess
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If you really wanted to bowl you would leave mama and jr. at home and you'd be able to go for a little over a grand. The rest is just excuses.
You guys arguing it shouldn't be in Reno just don't get that no where else wants it. The economic impact on their cities just isn't great enough for them to consider it.
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If you really wanted to bowl you would leave mama and jr. at home and you'd be able to go for a little over a grand. The rest is just excuses.
You guys arguing it shouldn't be in Reno just don't get that no where else wants it. The economic impact on their cities just isn't great enough for them to consider it.
Yeah, no one else wants it. That's why Baton Rouge got it in 2012. A scant two years ago, someone appeared to want it.
The USBC could probably get more interest if it would scale back the real estate it requires, but then it wouldn't feel so "special," I suppose. The Baton Rouge venue was way bigger than it needed to be. We were there for weekend shifts in April, middle of the day, and the house was at around 90 percent capacity for team and only about 66 percent capacity for minors. And there weren't nearly as many booths as I was expecting.
As for your first paragraph, you're right in that I'm making a choice. I'm choosing not to be greedy with my time/money in regards to my family. The question you need to ask yourself is how many other bowlers prioritize things the same way I do. If attendance continues to decline, the USBC will have to ask itself whether it's costing itself business. At least in our group, interest is off by about three-fourths, and I doubt we're the only ones experiencing it.
Jess
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It's in Syracuse in 2018, so let's see every squad is full. Otherwise all these "East of the Mississippi" house hacks are full of it.
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It's in Syracuse in 2018, so let's see every squad is full. Otherwise all these "East of the Mississippi" house hacks are full of it.
We're planning on it. It and one of the Reno trips are on our to-do list.
Jess
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It's in Syracuse in 2018, so let's see every squad is full. Otherwise all these "East of the Mississippi" house hacks are full of it.
We're planning on it. It and one of the Reno trips are on our to-do list.
Jess
Then maybe I'll see you there. I go every year no matter where it's held. We always bowl the last week of June.
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USBC demands things they don't need to hold the tournament so that more cities don't bid, and they can make the extra money they make and save the money they save holding it in Reno (and now Vegas). That's a fact that cannot be denied. No other logical inference can be made.
Joe, the so called "things they don't need" are what makes the tournament special. Without them, you're essentially proposing that the Open be dumbed down to a bloated city tournament. Many bowlers won't invest in plane flights, multiple travel days, hotel nights, and all the other expenses for an experience they can sign up for close to home. That's certainly the case for me. I like the full blown booth experience. I look forward to bowling in all the side tournaments as much as the Open itself. Take these and other 'unnecessary' components away, and I don't go. And I don't think I'm alone.
I'll take it a step further and suggest one scenario resulting from your vision is that participation would decline to mostly hard core teams that are there to bowl for a Eagle. The tournament could become a team version the USBC Masters, where a much smaller field will be paying $400-$500 per person for the privilege of competing.
Have fun with that….
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Jorge - I have all the facts on my side. I don't see anyone lining up to back you either. In fact, YOU even admitted I was right, so you may want to go back and read what you wrote.
Steven - they aren't needed for a city to bid on the tournament. Everything they want, they can have. Anywhere. They just have to open their minds enough to allow it and give up some of the profit$ they are so worried about. Nothing would go away. Nothing would change. They just need to have people that aren't lazy and aren't only worried about money making the decisions.
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It's in Syracuse in 2018, so let's see every squad is full. Otherwise all these "East of the Mississippi" house hacks are full of it.
We're planning on it. It and one of the Reno trips are on our to-do list.
Jess
Jess do you think it's gonna be that much more less expensive to go from Alabama to Syracuse?
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Jorge - I have all the facts on my side. I don't see anyone lining up to back you either. In fact, YOU even admitted I was right, so you may want to go back and read what you wrote.
Joe,
You are literally brain dead. What I said was "in a perfect world you are right, but we don't live in a perfect world". You can now add delusional, to you long list of apparent mental problems. I will respond to you when you either learn to read or decide to join the rest of us reality. Until then you are a waste of breath and space on this board.
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A perfect world would have it one east coast, one west coast and one middle of the states on a year by year rotating basis. Although I believe this will never happen, due to whatever reason it still is a nice dream.
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Jess,
I was going to let your last remarks go, but since Joe Uncool can't read and decided to drag me back here, I'll address you as well.
You are still overpricing and overestimating costs to try and make yourself look correct. I told you I found flights from your area for around $400-450 round trip. I don't see why or how this proves anything other than you don't know how to shop for the lowest prices. This isn't "turning up the volume" at all, it's just pointing out the facts. And you are correct, normally how much you spend on travel and how you travel is your business, and no one else's. But no one forced you to come into this thread and complain publically about it either. YOU made that choice and now you must live with the consequences of that choice, which is people picking apart what you post when you post incorrectly. If you didn't want scrutiny, then don't post about it. Simple as that.
The tournament got away from Reno 2 years ago....to Baton Rouge. Guess what, the number of teams dropped from the prior years. There was no pick-up from all the people in the East who think it is too expensive to go to Reno. There was no pick-up from people tired of Reno and wanting to go somewhere else. There was no pick up at all. There are two causes for this, one, the total drop in Memberships giving the USBC less to draw from and people still suffering because of the economic downturn. Neither one of these are going away anytime soon. So all of the blue collar east of the Mississippi folks could have made a statement.....show an increase in team entries in Baton Rouge, prove you want it in the East and you will support it and we get........nothing. All we have is lower numbers.
Would you tell any other business to take a loss to produce a product? Why should the USBC be forced to take a loss to run this tournament? That is one of the stupidest things I have heard yet on this topic. I would say 99% of every tournament ever run, is done so to make a profit. Sometime that profit is used to donate to charity, sometimes it goes into the pockets of the tournament organizers, but no tournament will continue if it doesn't make money. You must be living with Joe in his fantasy world.
What I said was, those that seem to complain the most, should get off their butts and do something about it. You want change, you need to make it happen. Coming onto a message board the USBC doesn't even look at to complain about it is stupid. All you are doing is talking to hear yourself talk. It has been shown time and time again that one person can make a difference. But instead you choose to say "not my job". Well then, guess what, the tournament is in Reno more often than not. You can sob, cry, whine, complain all you want....nothing is going to change. And why, it's because you are too lazy to put any effort into changing it. That's you Jess, Joe, and all the rest who come on here and complain. You can yell and scream at me all you like, but that doesn't change that fact. If you REALLY cared as much as you want everyone to believe you do, than you would do something about. You act like it takes 20 hours a week to do this....it takes only a few minutes. Start by researching the local convention center board online. Write them a letter stating your purpose. Follow-up with a phone call or meeting if needed. See if they are will to undertake this. In a month you would have spent maybe 1-2 hours on it. You really don't have 1-2 hours in an entire month of time?!? Guess what...if you put all the time it took you to compose and write all these replies, you'd be most of the way there.
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Jess,
I was going to let your last remarks go, but since Joe Uncool can't read and decided to drag me back here, I'll address you as well.
You are still overpricing and overestimating costs to try and make yourself look correct. I told you I found flights from your area for around $400-450 round trip. I don't see why or how this proves anything other than you don't know how to shop for the lowest prices. This isn't "turning up the volume" at all, it's just pointing out the facts. And you are correct, normally how much you spend on travel and how you travel is your business, and no one else's. But no one forced you to come into this thread and complain publically about it either. YOU made that choice and now you must live with the consequences of that choice, which is people picking apart what you post when you post incorrectly. If you didn't want scrutiny, then don't post about it. Simple as that.
The tournament got away from Reno 2 years ago....to Baton Rouge. Guess what, the number of teams dropped from the prior years. There was no pick-up from all the people in the East who think it is too expensive to go to Reno. There was no pick-up from people tired of Reno and wanting to go somewhere else. There was no pick up at all. There are two causes for this, one, the total drop in Memberships giving the USBC less to draw from and people still suffering because of the economic downturn. Neither one of these are going away anytime soon. So all of the blue collar east of the Mississippi folks could have made a statement.....show an increase in team entries in Baton Rouge, prove you want it in the East and you will support it and we get........nothing. All we have is lower numbers.
Would you tell any other business to take a loss to produce a product? Why should the USBC be forced to take a loss to run this tournament? That is one of the stupidest things I have heard yet on this topic. I would say 99% of every tournament ever run, is done so to make a profit. Sometime that profit is used to donate to charity, sometimes it goes into the pockets of the tournament organizers, but no tournament will continue if it doesn't make money. You must be living with Joe in his fantasy world.
What I said was, those that seem to complain the most, should get off their butts and do something about it. You want change, you need to make it happen. Coming onto a message board the USBC doesn't even look at to complain about it is stupid. All you are doing is talking to hear yourself talk. It has been shown time and time again that one person can make a difference. But instead you choose to say "not my job". Well then, guess what, the tournament is in Reno more often than not. You can sob, cry, whine, complain all you want....nothing is going to change. And why, it's because you are too lazy to put any effort into changing it. That's you Jess, Joe, and all the rest who come on here and complain. You can yell and scream at me all you like, but that doesn't change that fact. If you REALLY cared as much as you want everyone to believe you do, than you would do something about. You act like it takes 20 hours a week to do this....it takes only a few minutes. Start by researching the local convention center board online. Write them a letter stating your purpose. Follow-up with a phone call or meeting if needed. See if they are will to undertake this. In a month you would have spent maybe 1-2 hours on it. You really don't have 1-2 hours in an entire month of time?!? Guess what...if you put all the time it took you to compose and write all these replies, you'd be most of the way there.
I'm from the East Coast and i've went to nationals for the last 13 years. Flying to Baton Rouge was the same price as i'm paying to fly to Reno this year. I think the problem is most people want to either drive or fly for "wanna get away" pricing. I'm going to bowl for as long as I can for nationals, granted I MAKE money by bowling, so it's not a huge deal how much I pay to fly. Only thing that happens for me goign to Reno every year is most likely i will fly in bowl some side events the day before the actual Open and fly home the next day. Where as in some other cities i may extend my stay a couple of days. Either way is fine with me personally.
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Jorge, you should be embarrassed. Clueless Jorge is your new name since you can't read or comprehend what others are writing. You're just another internet know-it-all blowhard. You should be able to understand this since I stooped to your 2nd greade reading level.
The simple reality is that they don't need the things they claim to need to hold the tournament. That is an undeniable fact. The other undeniable fact is that they can provide the exact same bowler experience for people in other locations with less than they demand to hold the tournament with a little creativity and maybe a little more money. Two undeniable facts that nobody living in the real world can make a case against.
What that means is they can hold the tournament with all the bells and whistles they have now anywhere in the country with much lower requirements than they require now. The reason they won't lower the requirements is because they won't squeeze every last buck out of us and the sponsors if they lower the requirement and allow other cities to bid. That Jorge is the real world. It is you that seems to be stuck in the imaginary world with Mr Rodgers and his train set. There's nothing "perfect" required, the requirement is that greed won't trump their decision-making process.
So all your long, drawn out, insult laden responses that you like to make ignore the simplest of facts that make your whole entire point not just useless, but completely and utterly incorrect. You could not possibly be more wrong than you are, and that is amazing. Congratulations.
Just admit you're wrong. Be a big boy and admit that you got this one wrong. Maybe you'll earn some of the respect you think you can get by insulting people.
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Joe, the so called "things they don't need" are what makes the tournament special. Without them, you're essentially proposing that the Open be dumbed down to a bloated city tournament. Many bowlers won't invest in plane flights, multiple travel days, hotel nights, and all the other expenses for an experience they can sign up for close to home. That's certainly the case for me. I like the full blown booth experience. I look forward to bowling in all the side tournaments as much as the Open itself. Take these and other 'unnecessary' components away, and I don't go. And I don't think I'm alone.
I've yet to formulate my opinion on this.
I guess my question would be for Joe Cool would be, and I think this is a fair question: What SPECIFICALLY are the "things they don't need"? This year will be my first USBC Open Championships and I've been told it's a fun experience.
So, what specifically are the things "they (USBC) don't need" that I personally will experience this year? What is the expensive "overkill" that will be offered to me? I'm looking for specifics here........
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What that means is they can hold the tournament with all the bells and whistles they have now anywhere in the country with much lower requirements than they require now.
Joe, I'm trying to understand what "much lower requirements" means. If it's just profit, sorry. Jorge has covered that well, and you can't win that argument. If it's something else besides dumbing down the overall bowler experience, please explain.
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What that means is they can hold the tournament with all the bells and whistles they have now anywhere in the country with much lower requirements than they require now.
Joe, I'm trying to understand what "much lower requirements" means. If it's just profit, sorry. Jorge has covered that well, and you can't win that argument. If it's something else besides dumbing down the overall bowler experience, please explain.
This is where I think the discussion should go at this point logically. Since we have "undeniable facts" I want to see them and verify. Is there a public expense report, cost breakdown / profit numbers available? Since there are "undeniable facts" they should (must) be backed by hard empirical data, I'm not saying it doesn't exist (truly don't know), I just wanna see it.
What is the "things they claim to need" stated, defined and measured?
What does JC's "utopia" / conceptual prototype literally look like and how does it currently deviate from the current experience?
I've yet to experience Reno (I will be going this year) and I want to look for these things while there.
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They claim to need a certain amount of space to hold the tournament. They require certain things for a city to be able to bid. The full list is out there somehwere...you can probably google it. To simplify it for the purposes of this discussion, they can do without the space "requirement" that they have, but they keep the requirement high so more cities can't bid and they can use the places that they want to use while claiming nobody else bid. There's more, but that's simple enough for even Jorge to understand.
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What that means is they can hold the tournament with all the bells and whistles they have now anywhere in the country with much lower requirements than they require now.
Joe, I'm trying to understand what "much lower requirements" means. If it's just profit, sorry. Jorge has covered that well, and you can't win that argument. If it's something else besides dumbing down the overall bowler experience, please explain.
Jorge covered what? That profits should be put in front of bowler experience? I'm pretty sure he loses that argument before it even begins. Bowlers aren't begging to go to Reno every year, and despite all of the advantages going to Reno has for USBC, they are losing bowlers left and right. What that means is in spite of all of the ammenities and convenience Reno offers to bowlers, people aren't going because they don't like the experience. How exactly do I lose that argument? Please explain. Reno has everything in Jorge's imaginary world of bowling, yet people don't want to go there anymore.
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Reno is fine GTx2. I love Reno. I'd go there every year if they'd hold the tournament there. I think the Reno experience is going to be better than the Vegas experience (even though I prefer Vegas as a city) unless you stay at South Pointe (for our group of 6 teams at least). That doesn't blind me to the fact that I am in the minority on Reno. Thousands of people aren't going because the tournament is in Reno. Thousands of others are going, but aren't happy about it. Instead of burying your head like Jorge does, you should look at it and figure out why it's a probelm and what can be done to resolve the issue. That's exactly what I'm doing.
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They claim to need a certain amount of space to hold the tournament. They require certain things for a city to be able to bid. The full list is out there somehwere...you can probably google it. To simplify it for the purposes of this discussion, they can do without the space "requirement" that they have, but they keep the requirement high so more cities can't bid and they can use the places that they want to use while claiming nobody else bid. There's more, but that's simple enough for even Jorge to understand.
And do you have ANY evidence of this?
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They claim to need a certain amount of space to hold the tournament. They require certain things for a city to be able to bid. The full list is out there somehwere...you can probably google it. To simplify it for the purposes of this discussion, they can do without the space "requirement" that they have, but they keep the requirement high so more cities can't bid and they can use the places that they want to use while claiming nobody else bid. There's more, but that's simple enough for even Jorge to understand.
And do you have ANY evidence of this?
Evidence? I don't work for USBC. One doesn't need to be able to prove something if you can read between the lines. USBC history of making all decision based on money + less bowlers + same requirements + Reno and Vegas pretty much every year for 20 years. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see what's going on.
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They claim to need a certain amount of space to hold the tournament. They require certain things for a city to be able to bid. The full list is out there somehwere...you can probably google it. To simplify it for the purposes of this discussion, they can do without the space "requirement" that they have, but they keep the requirement high so more cities can't bid and they can use the places that they want to use while claiming nobody else bid. There's more, but that's simple enough for even Jorge to understand.
And do you have ANY evidence of this?
Evidence? I don't work for USBC. One doesn't need to be able to prove something if you can read between the lines. USBC history of making all decision based on money + less bowlers + same requirements + Reno and Vegas pretty much every year for 20 years. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to see what's going on.
You're right, I don't need to be a rocket scientist to see that you are presenting your opinion as fact.
Baton Rouge met whatever the minimum requirements are. In 2009, Vegas did with the Cashman center. El Paso must have as well, since that is where the Open will be held next year. And Syracuse NY must have been able to crack the code since the Open will be there in a few years.
I doubt that Reno is the main reason for falling team numbers at the Open. It's probably more to do with the general state of bowling and the overall economy than anything else. Baton Rouge pretty much proved that.
Besides, Reno has EARNED the right to at least be in the rotation of where the Open is held. No other city has built a bowling specific venue for major tournaments.
Not that you want to admit it though. So carry on with your agenda.
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When you get to Reno, USBC is going to require you to identify where every member of your team is staying and for how many days in order to complete registration. Think about that for a bit.
I don't have an agenda. I've stated numerous times (including today) that I love going to Reno. So carry on since once again nobody can refute what I'm saying, so they attack the messenger.
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Amazes me how many USBC apologists are willing to go down with the ship instead of taking a look at the sad shape it's in and making an effort to identify and help solve problems.
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When you get to Reno, USBC is going to require you to identify where every member of your team is staying and for how many days in order to complete registration. Think about that for a bit.
I don't have an agenda. I've stated numerous times (including today) that I love going to Reno. So carry on since once again nobody can refute what I'm saying, so they attack the messenger.
Think about what? The fact that they are trying to justify the ROI of their major sponsors? Seems to be smart marketing to me. Then again, I don't wear a tin foil hat.
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Amazes me how many USBC apologists are willing to go down with the ship instead of taking a look at the sad shape it's in and making an effort to identify and help solve problems.
YOU aren't solving anything, just bitching about it. And I don't see anyone being an "apologists" for USBC, we are just stating why it's in Reno so much.
You remind me of a guy I was talking to last night. He was bitching and moaning about the same thing; How USBC is trying to make money off these tournaments. Of course they are, the members refuse to allow them to raise the membership fee, so the money has to come from somewhere. All the while, this guy had a six ball roller he drags to league every week ($250+ for the bag and at least $600 for the balls), plus he has a couple of pairs of the latest Dexter SST 8's(another $140 a pop), but the idea of paying an extra $5 a year for the membership was outrageous and un-affordable in his mind.
THAT is what's wrong with bowling.
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Joe,
I could go into how delusional you are again, but I won't. All I will say are these 3 things:
1) I am not a fan of the USBC. I think Riggs had the perferct answer in one of his blogs a while bag, not that I think it will ever come to be. Check it out if you really want to educate yourself
2) I have said before, but I'll say it again just for you, I was a fan of the 3 year roatation of different cities then Reno. I liked traveling to see cities I would never get to otherwise. I even liked going to Billings. But I understand the reality of why it is in Reno so often, something you gloss over time and time again.
3) Milo has it correct. No one wants their membership to go up and it hasn't for about 5 years. Name one other product that is the same price today as it was 5 years ago, just 1. You can't. Costs rise, even to run something like the USBC. Even if it was run 100% lean and 100% perfect, cost go up. And without increasing membership dues, how else do you propose the USBC gets the money to run? Hope they pick the perfect NCAA bracket and win the $1 Billion prize?
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When you get to Reno, USBC is going to require you to identify where every member of your team is staying and for how many days in order to complete registration. Think about that for a bit.
I don't have an agenda. I've stated numerous times (including today) that I love going to Reno. So carry on since once again nobody can refute what I'm saying, so they attack the messenger.
Think about what? The fact that they are trying to justify the ROI of their major sponsors? Seems to be smart marketing to me. Then again, I don't wear a tin foil hat.
LOL. God forbid anybody question the establishment. The only way USBC can be wrong is if you wear a tin foil hat? Once again, attacking the messenger.
Why do they care? It's not their job to justify anything to the sponsors. Lets say they get to 10K teams this year...do they think they are all staying at a Motel 6? USBC shouldn't obligate teams to give the dates and locations of their members' visits in order to bowl in the tournament. That's problem #1. If the hotels aren't sure they are getting something for their sponsorship money, THEY should be asking their guests if they are there for bowling.
But lets even ignore that whole situation. What the hell was the rest of your post about? The 4 or 5 times in a 20 or so year span it wasn't in Reno or Vegas? So? Nobody said NO cities were bidding. What was stated is that few cities were bidding. USBC has said that themselves. You know how you get more cities to bid? You lower the requirements to bid. But if more cities bid, USBC has to spend more money sending people and materials to other places. That isn't cost effective since they are losing sponsorhip money as well. So how do you stop that from happening? Keep the same requirements for less bowlers and make it sound like cities aren't bidding. This is the dream setup for them...more money coming in, less money going out, less money spent sending employees to various locations for months at a time. I'm not saying I blame USBC for doing this. It's the smart move for them, but lets not pretend bowler experience has anything to do with the decisions they are making.
I was taught a long time ago to think for myself. Do you just blindly believe everything you're told?
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Joe,
I could go into how delusional you are again, but I won't. All I will say are these 3 things:
1) I am not a fan of the USBC. I think Riggs had the perferct answer in one of his blogs a while bag, not that I think it will ever come to be. Check it out if you really want to educate yourself
2) I have said before, but I'll say it again just for you, I was a fan of the 3 year roatation of different cities then Reno. I liked traveling to see cities I would never get to otherwise. I even liked going to Billings. But I understand the reality of why it is in Reno so often, something you gloss over time and time again.
3) Milo has it correct. No one wants their membership to go up and it hasn't for about 5 years. Name one other product that is the same price today as it was 5 years ago, just 1. You can't. Costs rise, even to run something like the USBC. Even if it was run 100% lean and 100% perfect, cost go up. And without increasing membership dues, how else do you propose the USBC gets the money to run? Hope they pick the perfect NCAA bracket and win the $1 Billion prize?
Tournament fees recently increased. They are doing it again with their prime time slots. They charge you no matter how you choose to pay. I have no idea what you're talking about. Prices have been going up seemingly every other year.
Now if you're talking about USBC, you know how you solve the problem? You spend less. The only way to solve a financial problem isn't to take in more. Maybe some of them are being overpaid for running the ship into the ground. Maybe there are other ineeficiencies they can look at. Here's what I know: USBC was sold as a long-term solution to ABC's money issues and about 10 years later they are broke. Their most recent solution was to take awards away from the bowlers and pass that responsibility on to the locals that can't afford it. Maybe they need to fix the actual problem instead of not making the tough decisions that need to be made.
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Amazes me how many USBC apologists are willing to go down with the ship instead of taking a look at the sad shape it's in and making an effort to identify and help solve problems.
YOU aren't solving anything, just bitching about it. And I don't see anyone being an "apologists" for USBC, we are just stating why it's in Reno so much.
You remind me of a guy I was talking to last night. He was bitching and moaning about the same thing; How USBC is trying to make money off these tournaments. Of course they are, the members refuse to allow them to raise the membership fee, so the money has to come from somewhere. All the while, this guy had a six ball roller he drags to league every week ($250+ for the bag and at least $600 for the balls), plus he has a couple of pairs of the latest Dexter SST 8's(another $140 a pop), but the idea of paying an extra $5 a year for the membership was outrageous and un-affordable in his mind.
THAT is what's wrong with bowling.
And again, I'm saying I am FINE that it is in Reno so much. And again, lowering the requirements to bid is a SOLUTION to the problem that I don't personally care if they ever solve. I must be the only one willing to bite the bullet on my personal preference for the greater good. Maybe I am delusional for wanting something better for the masses.
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Tournament fees recently increased. They are doing it again with their prime time slots. They charge you no matter how you choose to pay. I have no idea what you're talking about. Prices have been going up seemingly every other year.
Now if you're talking about USBC, you know how you solve the problem? You spend less. The only way to solve a financial problem isn't to take in more. Maybe some of them are being overpaid for running the ship into the ground. Maybe there are other ineeficiencies they can look at. Here's what I know: USBC was sold as a long-term solution to ABC's money issues and about 10 years later they are broke. Their most recent solution was to take awards away from the bowlers and pass that responsibility on to the locals that can't afford it. Maybe they need to fix the actual problem instead of not making the tough decisions that need to be made.
Joe,
You really can't be this dumb, can you? I am asking honestly. No name-calling, just curiousity. This is a joke right???
Let's make this very simple for you, so simple even my 7 yr old can understand it, so it still may be a little difficult for you, but if you concentrate, I think you can get it....
It costs the USBC money to run itself....I think we can all agree on that, right?
We have this thing called inflation, which means prices of goods and services rise year after year.
So it costs the USBC more money to run this year than it did last, regardless of what they do.....still with me there Joe?!?
Membership dues has not increased in the last 5 years (give or take). Membership has also continually declined over those same 5 years.
Add that together that means that there is less money coming into the USBC, while the cost to run it has gone up.
In order to run the USBC, that difference has to come from somewhere. WHERE DO YOU THINK THE USBC SHOULD GET THAT MONEY FROM? ???
Oh wait, you said they should cut costs....but then you complain about them cutting costs like removing awards....so you want them to cut costs....just not the costs you want them to keep, right? ???
Oh and the tournament fees going up....see the inflation thingy up above....it happens. And paying extra for prime spots.....does it cost the same to sit in the front row of a concert or sporting event as it does 2nd level? ??? Everywhere else we pay extra for better stuff.....why is it wrong here??? Oh wait, I know, cause Joe doesn't like in this case.
Class dismissed......make sure you get that nap in today so you aren't so cranky and don't act like a spoiled brat tomorrow, K!
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And again, I'm saying I am FINE that it is in Reno so much. And again, lowering the requirements to bid is a SOLUTION to the problem that I don't personally care if they ever solve. I must be the only one willing to bite the bullet on my personal preference for the greater good. Maybe I am delusional for wanting something better for the masses.
Joe,
You keep saying "lower the requirements" yet you can't give any examples of what should be cut. How is spouting retoric "wanting something better for the masses"??
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Wow. You should have gone to school for Business 101. You don't have the slightest idea how business works.
I'm going to pick apart everything you just said in my next post. Afterwards your apology will be accepted.
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I hope riggs will weigh in.....
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And again, I'm saying I am FINE that it is in Reno so much. And again, lowering the requirements to bid is a SOLUTION to the problem that I don't personally care if they ever solve. I must be the only one willing to bite the bullet on my personal preference for the greater good. Maybe I am delusional for wanting something better for the masses.
Joe,
You keep saying "lower the requirements" yet you can't give any examples of what should be cut. How is spouting retoric "wanting something better for the masses"??
I want to see the list of requirements, which to cut, and the tangible difference that it will make by proven figures (evidence, not opinion).
I'm unable to find this list, anyone able to help?
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Joe,
*** Deleted the part where you act like a 7 year old to spare the rest of humanity your sense of humor or whatever ignorance that was ***
In order to run the USBC, that difference has to come from somewhere. WHERE DO YOU THINK THE USBC SHOULD GET THAT MONEY FROM? ???
Oh wait, you said they should cut costs....but then you complain about them cutting costs like removing awards....so you want them to cut costs....just not the costs you want them to keep, right? ???
Yes, you see this is how the real world works. When you're not bringing in enough money, you have to cut costs when you cannot bring in more money. Apparently your 7 year old knows this and you don't. Maybe your 7 year old can teach you something.
Oh and the tournament fees going up....see the inflation thingy up above....it happens. And paying extra for prime spots.....does it cost the same to sit in the front row of a concert or sporting event as it does 2nd level? ??? Everywhere else we pay extra for better stuff.....why is it wrong here??? Oh wait, I know, cause Joe doesn't like in this case.
Joe doesn't care actually. I don't bowl weekends. See, this is where you prove post after post just how poorly you read. NONE of this is about me. I love Reno. I don't bowl on weekends. I throw my awards away. You keep trying to make this about me; I keep bringing it back to the real issue.
Every association in the world has to either bring in more money or spend less to continue to exist. USBC is no different. They have tried for YEARS to get a dues increase, but it never gets approved. Why is that? Could it be they aren't very efficient with the money they get now so nobody wants to give them more? Maybe. Personally I'd be willing to give them much more if they could prove they could spend the money effectively, but I'm not about to give more money to an organization that only exists because it was a long term financial solution to a money problem they were having before. I'm not giving them any credit for being able to solve financial issues when they have major issues 10 years later. Fool me once, shame on you...
So the truth is they have no choice but to spend less. However, if their ways of spending less offend their membership, they are going to lose even more members. So now they have even less money. I'm still waiting for the solution from them that is actually going to solve the multitude of problems they are having. They have to address their financial situation or they are not going to be around. That's not a threat or some inflammatory speech, it's the truth. Doing what they are doing isn't working. The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.
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And again, I'm saying I am FINE that it is in Reno so much. And again, lowering the requirements to bid is a SOLUTION to the problem that I don't personally care if they ever solve. I must be the only one willing to bite the bullet on my personal preference for the greater good. Maybe I am delusional for wanting something better for the masses.
Joe,
You keep saying "lower the requirements" yet you can't give any examples of what should be cut. How is spouting retoric "wanting something better for the masses"??
I want to see the list of requirements, which to cut, and the tangible difference that it will make by proven figures (evidence, not opinion).
I'm unable to find this list, anyone able to help?
How can you possibly show what difference it would make if they never have cut any of the requirements?
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LOL. God forbid anybody question the establishment. The only way USBC can be wrong is if you wear a tin foil hat? Once again, attacking the messenger.
Why do they care? It's not their job to justify anything to the sponsors. Lets say they get to 10K teams this year...do they think they are all staying at a Motel 6? USBC shouldn't obligate teams to give the dates and locations of their members' visits in order to bowl in the tournament. That's problem #1. If the hotels aren't sure they are getting something for their sponsorship money, THEY should be asking their guests if they are there for bowling.
But lets even ignore that whole situation. What the hell was the rest of your post about? The 4 or 5 times in a 20 or so year span it wasn't in Reno or Vegas? So? Nobody said NO cities were bidding. What was stated is that few cities were bidding. USBC has said that themselves. You know how you get more cities to bid? You lower the requirements to bid. But if more cities bid, USBC has to spend more money sending people and materials to other places. That isn't cost effective since they are losing sponsorhip money as well. So how do you stop that from happening? Keep the same requirements for less bowlers and make it sound like cities aren't bidding. This is the dream setup for them...more money coming in, less money going out, less money spent sending employees to various locations for months at a time. I'm not saying I blame USBC for doing this. It's the smart move for them, but lets not pretend bowler experience has anything to do with the decisions they are making.
I was taught a long time ago to think for myself. Do you just blindly believe everything you're told?
Funny, it seems that I AM thinking by not buying your line or reasoning. Or are we supposed to just automatically buy what 'ol Joe is selling, without any evidence or proof, because well, you know, 'ol Joe KNOWS all the reasons for the decisions USBC makes. Right? ;D
Here is a bit of a business tip for you, just in case you ever own/run a business that sells any kind of advertising(you know, like USBC). If you can show your potential advertising clients proof of the return on their investment, then it's much easier to get repeat business. Or, you can just claim it to be the case. I'm sure the word of 'ol Joe would be good enough.
By the way, I highly doubt USBC is spying on you in your hotel room. That should save you some money, tin foil is getting expensive I hear. ;D
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One more idiot. Go back to the misc forums where you and jorgie can troll away and leave the rest of us alone.
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One more idiot. Go back to the misc forums where you and jorgie can troll away and leave the rest of us alone.
Awww, don't like getting your face rubbed in it?
Besides, I no longer visit the non-misc forum, so you can have that. As for who is trolling, this thread was dormant from March 11 until today. And guess who brought it back to life? Yep, YOU. So go away and hump someone else's leg.
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Well Joe, I was wrong....you aren't as smart as a 7 yr old....oh well. It's a good thing the troubled masses have you looking out for them....or else they would really be in trouble.... ::) .
When you can answer just one of the questions I asked, some multiple times....I will respond to you. And if it isn't about YOU....why are YOU still posting about it?!? Especially when you offer no proof of any savings the USBC can get or what it can remove in order to get more cities to bid.
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Yawn. I see how you handle being wrong. Last word is yours; believe whatever you want to believe. I've done my job. People can either figure it out for themselves or not. Not my problem either way.
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Yawn. I see how you handle being wrong. Last word is yours; believe whatever you want to believe. I've done my job. People can either figure it out for themselves or not. Not my problem either way.
ROFLMAOPIMP You haven't proven anything...well that's not true. You've proven you are a tool, a fool, and that 1st grade logic is too much for you to comprehend.
Do you hear that....it's the Jeopardy song.....your time's almost up. You better produce some facts or else you will be eliminated from the game......
I know what the problem is....you can't hear the song because of all the troubled masses are cheering you too loud.....maybe as their bold hero you can get them to quiet down for just a minute, give you time to think and actual produce a factual answer.....
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Personally I'd be willing to give them much more if they could prove they could spend the money effectively
This is what I'm looking for in raw empirical data for ineffective spending. I've searched and cannot find the expenses that aren't needed.
Since these are "facts", what will I be looking at in Reno that isn't necessary for my experience?
So far I have:
-Requirement to list hotels of team members. I don't know the percentage that will save the USBC Open budget (which I'd like to see).
Again, these are facts, someone should have the verifiable proof for this. I'm just asking to see it since I personally cannot find it.
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Jorge, you're apparently operating under the mistaken premise that I care what you think. The fact that you have no problem making claims of someone making anti-semetic statements without any proof at all tells me all I need to know about your character. You've had the last word, time for you to move on.
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Time is ticking away Joe......your Final Jeopardy answer must be completed soon....but since you are so limited in your comprehension, we will dispense with it being in the form of a question....in fact we would prefer it be in the form of an answer to the questions all of us have asked you.
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Joe, the so called "things they don't need" are what makes the tournament special. Without them, you're essentially proposing that the Open be dumbed down to a bloated city tournament. Many bowlers won't invest in plane flights, multiple travel days, hotel nights, and all the other expenses for an experience they can sign up for close to home. That's certainly the case for me. I like the full blown booth experience. I look forward to bowling in all the side tournaments as much as the Open itself. Take these and other 'unnecessary' components away, and I don't go. And I don't think I'm alone.
I've yet to formulate my opinion on this.
I guess my question would be for Joe Cool would be, and I think this is a fair question: What SPECIFICALLY are the "things they don't need"? This year will be my first USBC Open Championships and I've been told it's a fun experience.
So, what specifically are the things "they (USBC) don't need" that I personally will experience this year? What is the expensive "overkill" that will be offered to me? I'm looking for specifics here........
What are the USBC Open Tournament's bells and whistles at Reno? What does it have that other tournaments don't have that could be eliminated to save money?
Off the top of my head:
1. Bowling industry or bowling related vendor booths, like the ball manufacturer's proshop/display booths. Do bowlers really need to spend money on new bowling balls at a tournament or have their bowling balls plugged/altered prior to their squads? Of course, if a ball is found to be illegal due to a static weight violation during check-in (see item #3), the bowler would not be able to use the ball if there was no proshop available to do the necessary corrections prior to the bowler's squad. You also have booths where souvenirs are sold. How many keepsakes does one need to remind them of their sub 500 scores?
2. A ball shipping service whereby the bowlers can have their bowling balls shipped to or from the tournament site. Too many lazy bowlers who don't like to lug their eight bowling balls over their shoulders to and from the tournament site?
3. A squad room and ball weighing check-in station. Do we really need to have all the bowlers for a squad waiting in one area? Most bowlers I know have personal hygiene issues so that can be rather uncomfortable for those who don't. Just have the bowlers show up early and mill around the bowling center like in most other tournaments. And ball check-in? What other tournaments even worry about something like that, especially with all the illegally drilled bowling balls in use daily in league play? Just a huge waste of money there for sure, because you have to pay a couple of people to do all the ball checks.
4. The walk down the center aisle before the squad starts. You could save space by eliminating that and keeping the bowlers out of the area behind the lane machines (which must be an insurance risk issue, so save money on insurance too).
5. The lane machines and mechanics. They really have a large number of lane machines in use for the Open, probably more than any other tournament. The cost for all those lane machines (eight?) and the people to run them before every squad could be saved by running like a normal tournament with just two machines. Of course, the squad times would have to be slightly extended, thus extending the length of the tournament run slightly, but the goal is to save money. The Open also has an unusually high number of mechanics working during the tournament. Cut those down to just two and some pin-jumpers to save money. Might be more breakdowns, but as bowlers we should be used to that, right?
6. Lane 81. The Open has an extra lane away from all the others that is used for instruction use. This takes up a large space and is something that you don't see in other tournaments. Do bowlers really need to get lessons before a tournament? Is it fair to those who do not want to spend the money on lessons and instead on beer?
7. Bowling ball lockers. These huge bowling ball lockers take up a lot of space and probably generate a lot of money for the USBC. Bowlers who bowl team event one day and the minors the next, use these lockers to store their bowling balls and bags and to save themselves some excercise from lugging or dragging them back and forth between events.
Now, if you really want to save space and eliminate things that are not really necessary to hold a tournament, you could also eliminate the food vendor booths. Is it really necessary to eat or drink before, after or during bowling? And by eliminating the food and drinks, you could cut down on the number of bathrooms, thereby saving even more space. Just have bowlers bring in an extra empty bowling bag for emergency use. Plus, the bowlers would be leaving the bowling site even faster than normal instead of loitering around causing congestion.
I probably missed a few things so feel free to add yours.
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Nice list MI 2 AZ, I'm SURE attendance wouldn't drop further if they left all those things out. ::)
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So basically if it is annoying to you MI 2 AZ, it must be something they can do without. Makes total sense.
Ever stop to think it is these things that helped to bring in 12k+ teams at one point as well?
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Time is ticking away Joe......your Final Jeopardy answer must be completed soon....but since you are so limited in your comprehension, we will dispense with it being in the form of a question....in fact we would prefer it be in the form of an answer to the questions all of us have asked you.
All of us? There is no all of us. There's you. And you've been answered, you just don't like the answer, but you're not smart enough to understand the answer either.
As I said, I don't care what you think. The information is out there for those that want to understand. I'm done with you before you start falsely accusing me of making anti-semetic posts 20 years ago. You're a typical internet blow hard. Always have been, always will be. The world is full of people like you that think you know-it-all. People like you only understand being smacked in the head with the truth before you realize what has been going on. Let's just say you've made your point clear and we can bring this thread back to life when I'm proven right.
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So basically if it is annoying to you MI 2 AZ, it must be something they can do without. Makes total sense.
Ever stop to think it is these things that helped to bring in 12k+ teams at one point as well?
He's being sarcastic. What he's not realizing is that ALL of those things can happen with less space than USBC requires to even submit a bid. There's no way anyone with any sense of rationality could argue otherwise. But people are trying for some reason.
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He's being sarcastic. What he's not realizing is that ALL of those things can happen with less space than USBC requires to even submit a bid. There's no way anyone with any sense of rationality could argue otherwise. But people are trying for some reason.
In the past, you've argued that the booths and some of the other non-bowling specific side shows could be eliminated in pursuit of reducing costs. Now you're implying that's really not necessary. Interesting.
So if you keep everything, how much less space can you realistically get away with?? If you reduce the number of lanes, you're pushing the tournament into July and possibly August. That's probably not an option. Booths and stores take up a certain amount of space that's hard to cut enough of to make a real difference. So where is the potential for space reduction that equates to a difference maker for a bid?
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Joe,
You can keep bringing up stuff from the Non-moderated forum...but it just shows the lack of class you have. And unless you posted under this name in another forum, and actually did something like that, you have nothing to worry about, other than how you will survive another day with your severe lack of intelligence.
Now, again for the umpteenth time, no one is dsiputing that the USBC could remove things like the vendor booths and such. What you fail to answer is in the real world, how does the USBC recreate the revenue it gets from having these thing at the USBC Open? Plus, how do continue to market the USBC Open as the sports most prestigous amateur tournament when you've now made it look like everyone's State or Local Association tournament? You refuse, or more likely don't have the mental capacity to understand, that the USBC isn't going to magically become self sufficient on Membership Dues alone. It needs additional sources of income, even if ran the perfect, tightest, and leanest organization in the world. It would still need to get revenue from somewhere. And your solution to this is.......exactly nothing. All you have said is ways to further reduce revenue.....yet you then complain when services are cut. Only in your classless little mind, can you get more service while bringing less money. You must work for the government cause they are the only ones who seem to be able to think that kind of a solution works. Maybe, one day, when you grow up, you can see what the adults in this thread were talking about and realize what a tool you've been. But I won't hold my breath. It must be getting close to nap time for you isn't it?
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He's being sarcastic. What he's not realizing is that ALL of those things can happen with less space than USBC requires to even submit a bid. There's no way anyone with any sense of rationality could argue otherwise. But people are trying for some reason.
In the past, you've argued that the booths and some of the other non-bowling specific side shows could be eliminated in pursuit of reducing costs. Now you're implying that's really not necessary. Interesting.
So if you keep everything, how much less space can you realistically get away with?? If you reduce the number of lanes, you're pushing the tournament into July and possibly August. That's probably not an option. Booths and stores take up a certain amount of space that's hard to cut enough of to make a real difference. So where is the potential for space reduction that equates to a difference maker for a bid?
All it takes is someone creative enough to come up with a viable solution. Things like having the booths off-site, or on-site, but it a slightly different location. There are so many lanes going unused now that they are cancelling full squads and combining them with others (and still not filling the lanes). Those are just the obvious things. A trailor could be brought in to house all the offices and registration for example. There are solutions if one wishes to seek them. Apparently I'm as smart as a 1 year old and I came up with these in 45 seconds. Surely the smart people can come up with better solutions.
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Joe,
You can keep bringing up stuff from the Non-moderated forum...but it just shows the lack of class you have. And unless you posted under this name in another forum, and actually did something like that, you have nothing to worry about, other than how you will survive another day with your severe lack of intelligence.
Now, again for the umpteenth time, no one is dsiputing that the USBC could remove things like the vendor booths and such. What you fail to answer is in the real world, how does the USBC recreate the revenue it gets from having these thing at the USBC Open? Plus, how do continue to market the USBC Open as the sports most prestigous amateur tournament when you've now made it look like everyone's State or Local Association tournament? You refuse, or more likely don't have the mental capacity to understand, that the USBC isn't going to magically become self sufficient on Membership Dues alone. It needs additional sources of income, even if ran the perfect, tightest, and leanest organization in the world. It would still need to get revenue from somewhere. And your solution to this is.......exactly nothing. All you have said is ways to further reduce revenue.....yet you then complain when services are cut. Only in your classless little mind, can you get more service while bringing less money. You must work for the government cause they are the only ones who seem to be able to think that kind of a solution works. Maybe, one day, when you grow up, you can see what the adults in this thread were talking about and realize what a tool you've been. But I won't hold my breath. It must be getting close to nap time for you isn't it?
Lack of class? Coming from someone with your level of class, I'll take that as a compliment since you have no idea what class is. All you do is insult people that have the gall to think differently than you do. Move on, you're one more response from going on ignore with LGD so I don't have to read your BS anymore.
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He's being sarcastic. What he's not realizing is that ALL of those things can happen with less space than USBC requires to even submit a bid. There's no way anyone with any sense of rationality could argue otherwise. But people are trying for some reason.
In the past, you've argued that the booths and some of the other non-bowling specific side shows could be eliminated in pursuit of reducing costs. Now you're implying that's really not necessary. Interesting.
So if you keep everything, how much less space can you realistically get away with?? If you reduce the number of lanes, you're pushing the tournament into July and possibly August. That's probably not an option. Booths and stores take up a certain amount of space that's hard to cut enough of to make a real difference. So where is the potential for space reduction that equates to a difference maker for a bid?
All it takes is someone creative enough to come up with a viable solution. Things like having the booths off-site, or on-site, but it a slightly different location. There are so many lanes going unused now that they are cancelling full squads and combining them with others (and still not filling the lanes). Those are just the obvious things. A trailor could be brought in to house all the offices and registration for example. There are solutions if one wishes to seek them. Apparently I'm as smart as a 1 year old and I came up with these in 45 seconds. Surely the smart people can come up with better solutions.
USBC HEADQUARTERS
621 Six Flags Drive
Arlington, TX 76011
www.BOWL.com
800-514-2695 and enter ext. when requested
Marketing
marketing@bowl.com
ext. 8960 | Fax: 817-385-8260
National Championships
USBC Open Championships
USBCopenchampionships@bowl.com
ext. 8973
Regional Managers
- Robin Marshall (Northeast) | robin.marshall@bowl.com
- George Lambert (Midwest) | george.lambert@bowl.com
- Jim Zebehazy (South) | jim.zebehazy@bowl.com
- David Prange (West) | david.prange@bowl.com
There you go Joe. One of these contact will probably appreciate your suggestions. I'm sure they have not thought of any of your ideas. You should be able to school them and get this taken care of right away.
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Joe,
Oh please please can I be on your ignore list....then I won't have deal with you infintile posts anymore.
And just so you can look even more foolish than usual....your replies as to where put the booths are priceless....PRICELESS. So you just put them somewhere else. How do you pay for that somewhere else? Do you think any convention center would give you extra space for free just because you rented out part of it? Put the offices in a trailer....who pays for the trailer, and what do you do with it when the tournament isn't going on? Where do you put it while the tournament is going on? DO you think any city will just allow you to block public areas with it? Do you think any convention center will allow you to use up part of their parking lot, especially when you have lowered your space requirements now so they can have additional things going on in other areas? Do you even think about these answers or do you just spout off whatever drivel comes into your teeny tiny little mind? And how many teams are you going to lose when you tell them they can't have their preferred dates anymore cause there isn't enough lanes? How can you tell teams that even though you wanted one set of dates, now you have to go a month later, or earlier, even though that may not work with their schedules, just because they couldn't fill up an entire squad?
I could go on and on but this shows that you have no clue as to what you are talking about, and have decided to continue your charade anyway, just because you don't like me. You have no facts, no proof, no answers, nothing but a blind hatred for someone you have never and probably will never meet. And at this point in time, Im fine with that, I don't want to meet you and have to be responsible for burping you and changing your diaper.
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Done. One less idiot for me to deal with. You wouldn't know how to solve a problem if it smacked you in the face. Now I only have to deal with people quoting your idiotic posts.
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I'm not sure why I'm going to bother with this given all the closed-minded people here, but I guess I'm not ready to stop standing up for the little guy that is sick of going to Reno.
For the people actually capable of thinking for themselves here, one of the solutions is fairly easy to implement. They are already eliminating the early morning and late night squads. The simplest solution is requiring less space for lanes for a bid since they can't fill squads anyway instead of taking those squads away. That alone will allow more cities to bid. Now we know this won't happen because USBC has no interest in having other cities bid, but they could get more cities interested in bidding with one small change to the requirements to submit a bid. I can't wait to hear someone explain how this isn't possible...
Another simple solution as I mentioned earlier is hosting the registration and league offices in a trailer. This is another fairly simple solution that will decrease the amount of space required in the building. These trailers could take up a couple parking spots. Not really a big deal. I've never been to a convention center that couldn't spare a few parking spaces, especially for a bowling tournament that few go to watch that aren't participating. Certainly not expensive. Trailers could be stored at USBC headquarters when not in use at the site. This would require USBC to spend a little money in the short term to provide a better experience for their members longer term. But again, USBC would prefer to have the tournament in Reno or Vegas, so this isn't going to happen either.
I get it. You guys want what you want and don't care if the event is in the same places every year. You've made your point clear. I am fine with Reno and Vegas every year too. We're the minority. People are sick of Reno. Many, many people stopped coming. You cannot deny either of those statements. Why you choose to bury your heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine vs looking at solutions to increase the amount of times the tournament is in different locations is beyond me.
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I'm not sure why I'm going to bother with this given all the closed-minded people here, but I guess I'm not ready to stop standing up for the little guy that is sick of going to Reno.
For the people actually capable of thinking for themselves here, one of the solutions is fairly easy to implement. They are already eliminating the early morning and late night squads. The simplest solution is requiring less space for lanes for a bid since they can't fill squads anyway instead of taking those squads away. That alone will allow more cities to bid. Now we know this won't happen because USBC has no interest in having other cities bid, but they could get more cities interested in bidding with one small change to the requirements to submit a bid. I can't wait to hear someone explain how this isn't possible...
Another simple solution as I mentioned earlier is hosting the registration and league offices in a trailer. This is another fairly simple solution that will decrease the amount of space required in the building. These trailers could take up a couple parking spots. Not really a big deal. I've never been to a convention center that couldn't spare a few parking spaces, especially for a bowling tournament that few go to watch that aren't participating. Certainly not expensive. Trailers could be stored at USBC headquarters when not in use at the site. This would require USBC to spend a little money in the short term to provide a better experience for their members longer term. But again, USBC would prefer to have the tournament in Reno or Vegas, so this isn't going to happen either.
I get it. You guys want what you want and don't care if the event is in the same places every year. You've made your point clear. I am fine with Reno and Vegas every year too. We're the minority. People are sick of Reno. Many, many people stopped coming. You cannot deny either of those statements. Why you choose to bury your heads in the sand and pretend everything is fine vs looking at solutions to increase the amount of times the tournament is in different locations is beyond me.
Our group has 5 teams, this year 4 of those teams have dropped out. Before some of the elitists start with their crap, these aren't "once a week bowlers" we bowl in sport leagues, travel to scratch tournaments out of state, we make efforts to practice, etc.
But enough is enough, we are average middle class people, some with families. They/We can't justify dropping $2k to go bowl 9 games with no real payoff. The tired excuse of "its a vacation" has worn out and a lot guys caught grief from their wives, typically, you enjoy a vacation and look forward to going to that destination. Reno, NV is NOT that.
This tournament is dying a slow death and anyone who doesn't see that, I have ocean front property in Chicago to sell you.
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Where has it been that you would consider a "vacation destination"?
I went for 18 years. The one common theme with every city we went to was there was no reason to go back.
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Where has it been that you would consider a "vacation destination"?
I went for 18 years. The one common theme with every city we went to was there was no reason to go back.
I must say that Mobbile, Alabama is a nice vacation place. Decent golf courses if thats your forte'. Good fishing. Casinos within 30 minutes Plenty of shopping areas. All at reasonable prices.
Baton Rouge is o.k. too.
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Where has it been that you would consider a "vacation destination"?
I went for 18 years. The one common theme with every city we went to was there was no reason to go back.
I must say that Mobbile, Alabama is a nice vacation place. Decent golf courses if thats your forte'. Good fishing. Casinos within 30 minutes Plenty of shopping areas. All at reasonable prices.
Baton Rouge is o.k. too.
Knoxville wasn't bad with Pigeon Forge and the Smokies nearby. Corpus Christie was wonderful. I think we're staying in Albuquerque next year rather than staying in El Paso. It's never going to the Bahamas or anything like that, but there are things to do in other places.
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Are you going to stay in Philadelphia when it's in Syracuse? It's 250 miles from Alb to EP.
If you consider Albuquerque a vacation destination I don't know how to respond to this debate.
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Are you going to stay in Philadelphia when it's in Syracuse? It's 250 miles from Alb to EP.
If you consider Albuquerque a vacation destination I don't know how to respond to this debate.
Great. Now Joe is going to argue about the advantages of staying in a location 250 miles from the actual venue. And of course we ALL know what a tourist mecca Albuquerque is, right Joe?
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After thinking about Joe's decision to stay in Albuquerque instead of El Paso, I wonder if he sees the irony considering his previous argument about the Open being in Reno too often?
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Are you going to stay in Philadelphia when it's in Syracuse? It's 250 miles from Alb to EP.
If you consider Albuquerque a vacation destination I dong't know how to respond to this debate.
If Joe considers access to Pigeon Forge a plus, I don't know how to respond to questions of his sanity. :) I've never seen a stop light littered 10 mile strip with more cheesy hotels and tacky attractions anywhere else (I've traveled) in the country. :o
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Also, tickets to El Paso are only about $20 cheaper round trip than a trip to Reno is. People just want to complain.
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Obviously you guys aren't interested in actually discussing anything. I notice nobody is picking apart my solutions post yet again. More proof that the solutions are more than viable and you guys just have nothing better to do than troll the internet.
Nobody said anything about staying in Albuquerque on the days we bowl; we are going to spend our extra time there or in AZ for ST instead of doing nothing in El Paso. You guys are so incapable of having a discussion about anything. You'd rather try to "catch" someone on some pointless detail than actually debate the point of the discussion. Not surprising when I'm dead on and you guys look really, really bad because of it. Carry on; I'm completely humored at this point.
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I think we're staying in Albuquerque next year rather than staying in El Paso.
This is what you wrote, in complete context. You said nothing about Albuquerque for fun outside the tournament. Your statement can't reasonably be interpreted that way all.
Maybe this kind of disconnect is why you're having so much trouble understanding the holes in your position, and what other people have tried to explain to you. At least now I have a better understanding.
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The El Paso/Juarez metropolitan area has 2.7 million people. You think you need to drive 250 or 300 miles to find something to do?
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I think we're staying in Albuquerque next year rather than staying in El Paso.
This is what you wrote, in complete context. You said nothing about Albuquerque for fun outside the tournament. Your statement can't reasonably be interpreted that way all.
Maybe this kind of disconnect is why you're having so much trouble understanding the holes in your position, and what other people have tried to explain to you. At least now I have a better understanding.
Or maybe I give you guys too much credit to be able to connect the dots...
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Living is one of my only goals for leaving El Paso. I'm still toying with the idea of skipping that tournament. Knowing many women that were there for their tournament recently, staying somewhere else is a good move.
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How many women didn't make it home?
That is one of the most ridiculous thing I've read on here yet.
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Living is one of my only goals for leaving El Paso. I'm still toying with the idea of skipping that tournament. Knowing many women that were there for their tournament recently, staying somewhere else is a good move.
Really?
Isn't this one of the normal arguments about Reno and the pan handlers downtown? Funny, with all the "tough guys" on this site, there sure are a lot of panty waists when it comes to dealing with the real world.
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One of you guys will have to quote this so Joe can see it apparently, since he put me on ignore since he can't refute what I say....
What I can't believe no one has said yet about the super hero for the masses Joe Cool is this....for someone who is supposed to be about the "Little Guys" he is now talking about forcing them to bowl at 7:00AM, 10:30PM or later. How is this looking out for the little guy, looking out for the masses? There is a reason they are doing away with the early morning squad....most people don't want to bowl it. Now in order to get the tournament to "more cities" Joe wants to force the USBC to keep the squad and fill it so it can have less lanes. So basically all this hot air about being for the masses is nothing but BS. It is about Joe and no one else....the proof is right in his post.
And since Joe likes Reno and Vegas so much, why doesn't he just stay there when the tournament is in El Paso....it's just a short drive, like Albuquerque. Of course, now that it's not in Reno....Joe is thinking of skipping it, because he doesn't want the tournament in Reno so much, for the masses, so now that his hero work is done, he doesn't actually need to attend the tournament and support it, now does he???
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One of you guys will have to quote this so Joe can see it apparently, since he put me on ignore since he can't refute what I say....
What I can't believe no one has said yet about the super hero for the masses Joe Cool is this....for someone who is supposed to be about the "Little Guys" he is now talking about forcing them to bowl at 7:00AM, 10:30PM or later. How is this looking out for the little guy, looking out for the masses? There is a reason they are doing away with the early morning squad....most people don't want to bowl it. Now in order to get the tournament to "more cities" Joe wants to force the USBC to keep the squad and fill it so it can have less lanes. So basically all this hot air about being for the masses is nothing but BS. It is about Joe and no one else....the proof is right in his post.
And since Joe likes Reno and Vegas so much, why doesn't he just stay there when the tournament is in El Paso....it's just a short drive, like Albuquerque. Of course, now that it's not in Reno....Joe is thinking of skipping it, because he doesn't want the tournament in Reno so much, for the masses, so now that his hero work is done, he doesn't actually need to attend the tournament and support it, now does he???
Done. Unless of course, Joe has me on iggy as well. ;D
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You will be if you quote him at his request.
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You will be if you quote him at his request.
Oh yea, that will ruin my day.
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Of course Joe Uncool can't respond to the actual point of the post....how he is forcing people to bowl when they don't want. Just makes a stupid comment....which is par for the course. Every answer he gives has no thought, no rationale and nothing to do with his so-called point. Let's take another crack at his newest fantasy....the trailer idea. How many team captains are going to want to stand in line outside in El Paso in June, or any number of other southern cities in June just to check in? How many are going to want to stand outside in February or March in Syracuse or a northern city in perhaps snow? But remember....Clueless Joe is all about the masses...the little guy. ::)
Maybe he'll make the USBC have a 1:00AM squad too, just so they can cut out a few lanes and HOPE more cities bid. You know the cities that are doing so well, cities with big empty convention centers just sitting around attracting dust....since none of them would have yearly business, at least not in Clueless Joe's world. They are just sitting there, bid in hand, hoping and praying that the USBC will lower their space requirements so they can hold this event in their lovely city.
Good show Joe, good show ::)
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I'm sure Jorgie is posting about how right he is and how wrong I am.
I'll make a little fun of his earlier post for old time's sake. Forcing people to bowl at times they don't want to is different from forcing them to bowl in places they don't want to? Don't bother answering because I know you'll never admit you're wrong. Just feel better knowing you have brought yet another lol moment directed at you when I'm trying my best to ignore you.
Oh yeah, I forgot: I'm good with Reno and Vegas and we've almost always bowled the late night squad and bowled the early squad once; never had an issue with it. Once again you keep trying to make it about me, and once again you fail miserably. Keep trying Jorgie...some day you just might be right if you make enough efforts at it.
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I'm sure Jorgie is posting about how right he is and how wrong I am.
I'll make a little fun of his earlier post for old time's sake. Forcing people to bowl at times they don't want to is different from forcing them to bowl in places they don't want to? Don't bother answering because I know you'll never admit you're wrong. Just feel better knowing you have brought yet another lol moment directed at you when I'm trying my best to ignore you.
Oh yeah, I forgot: I'm good with Reno and Vegas and we've almost always bowled the late night squad and bowled the early squad once; never had an issue with it. Once again you keep trying to make it about me, and once again you fail miserably. Keep trying Jorgie...some day you just might be right if you make enough efforts at it.
So according to the hero of the masses....it's ok for him to force people to do something they don't want to.....but it is 100% totally wrong for the USBC to do it?!?
ROFLMAOPIMP Whoever said that Joe had said the stupidest thing he ever heard on these boards earlier was wrong.....Joe has topped himself with this one.....but it's not all about him remember people....it's about the little guy.....doing what Joe says.....for his own good.....LOL
Joe Cool = Obama????? Think about it people.....
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Can someone else reply so I don't even have to be aware that this tool is responding? They should really block any acknowledgement that the person exists. In this case, they should block jorgie from the site because he does nothing but troll.
Keep hunting those phantom anti-semites jorgie. Given how delusional you are now, I can only imagine what insanity your memory tells you happened 7 years ago...when LGD is the ONLY person backing you, you should probably step away from the computer.
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Can someone else reply so I don't even have to be aware that this tool is responding? They should really block any acknowledgement that the person exists. In this case, they should block jorgie from the site because he does nothing but troll.
Keep hunting those phantom anti-semites jorgie. Given how delusional you are now, I can only imagine what insanity your memory tells you happened 7 years ago...when LGD is the ONLY person backing you, you should probably step away from the computer.
OR you could exercise some self-discipline and ignore him. :o
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Keep hunting those phantom anti-semites jorgie. Given how delusional you are now, I can only imagine what insanity your memory tells you happened 7 years ago...when LGD is the ONLY person backing you, you should probably step away from the computer.
Dear Joe Cool:
I don't believe that jorge300 even has a clue as to what anti-Semitism is, although he is quick to label someone with being anti-Semitic. He's all talk with nothing to back it up.
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OR you could exercise some self-discipline and ignore him. :o
I can't see what he posts as it is unless someone copies it. How much more ignoring can one do?