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General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: milorafferty on September 13, 2013, 12:24:02 PM

Title: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: milorafferty on September 13, 2013, 12:24:02 PM
Why do a some folks here blame the ball for leaving the 10?

I see it in a lot of threads talking about balls, comments like "it sure leaves a lot of 10 pins".

Do these guys really think the ball alone is responsible for their inability to carry?
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: dmonroe814 on September 13, 2013, 12:35:47 PM
Of course they blame the ball.  I couldn't possibly their fault.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: spmcgivern on September 13, 2013, 12:36:06 PM
yes
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: blesseddad on September 13, 2013, 01:03:55 PM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: scrub49 on September 13, 2013, 01:15:43 PM
Agree with blesseddad  while using an 2 piece Black-U-Dot my third game I left 8 ten pins one four-nine and the bucket had one strike. The game before started with the first 7 and shot an 240 plus game. To be honest I moved 2 boards deeper after 2nd game. Yes both games with same ball.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: Good Times Good Times on September 13, 2013, 01:53:39 PM
Milo, I think what you're hinting at is an absolute lack of education w/regards to ball motion and a lack of understanding (in some cases a lack of abilty to understand) of what pin carry is telling you.  Pin carry tells a story about what is happening on the pattern and what the ball is doing when it enters the pocket.  For an 8 pin, I'll concede a tap, but there's always a reason for a 10. 

When it gets down to it, the sad part is that some DO believe it is the BALL that leaves 10 pins.  We can discern a lot about a bowler based on comments such as this.  What those bowlers fail to realize is that the pins are no respecter of a specific ball. 

I suppose "they" want a ball that "has less 10 pins IN it"?   :-\  :-\
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: milorafferty on September 13, 2013, 01:58:05 PM
Bingo. Although I disagree about the 8 pin.  ;D



Milo, I think what you're hinting at is an absolute lack of education w/regards to ball motion and a lack of understanding (in some cases a lack of abilty to understand) of what pin carry is telling you.  Pin carry tells a story about what is happening on the pattern and what the ball is doing when it enters the pocket.  For an 8 pin, I'll concede a tap, but there's always a reason for a 10. 

When it gets down to it, the sad part is that some DO believe it is the BALL that leaves 10 pins.  We can discern a lot about a bowler based on comments such as this.  What those bowlers fail to realize is that the pins are no respecter of a specific ball. 

I suppose "they" want a ball that "has less 10 pins IN it"?   :-\  :-\
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: blesseddad on September 13, 2013, 04:00:45 PM
Bingo. Although I disagree about the 8 pin.  ;D



Milo, I think what you're hinting at is an absolute lack of education w/regards to ball motion and a lack of understanding (in some cases a lack of abilty to understand) of what pin carry is telling you.  Pin carry tells a story about what is happening on the pattern and what the ball is doing when it enters the pocket.  For an 8 pin, I'll concede a tap, but there's always a reason for a 10. 

When it gets down to it, the sad part is that some DO believe it is the BALL that leaves 10 pins.  We can discern a lot about a bowler based on comments such as this.  What those bowlers fail to realize is that the pins are no respecter of a specific ball. 

I suppose "they" want a ball that "has less 10 pins IN it"?   :-\  :-\

Exactly. there is a reason for every leave, whether we recognize it or not...

As for 8's/9's, if you have a system like my home center, the camera replay of the ball going through the pins can be a huge tool. Does the ball stop and set? Does it deflect? Does it stay true to the entry angle? Does it have too much continuation? Many questions to be answered...Tap or no tap, still reasons why...
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: milorafferty on September 13, 2013, 04:09:58 PM
That's how I see it as well. I went to the BTM Super School a few years back when it was in Middletown, Ohio.

One of the days we had a class room session with Mark Robey(Pro Shop owner in Detroit if I remember correctly). He had several videos showing exactly why back row pins are left. His big thing was to watch for the "wiggle" as the ball goes through the pins. For a right hander, the ball hits the one pin and deflects slightly right, then the three pins and deflects slightly left, five pin deflect right and 9 pin deflect left. If you watch the ball, it actually does wiggle going through the pins and rolls off the center of the deck on a perfect shot.

Exactly. there is a reason for every leave, whether we recognize it or not...

As for 8's/9's, if you have a system like my home center, the camera replay of the ball going through the pins can be a huge tool. Does the ball stop and set? Does it deflect? Does it stay true to the entry angle? Does it have too much continuation? Many questions to be answered...Tap or no tap, still reasons why...
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 13, 2013, 05:58:27 PM
So often the move to stop 7 pins for me a lefty is to move slightly left and maybe get the hand a little more direct!  It happened last night.  Strike one lane 7 pin the other strike then 7, then a move slightly left and more direct 4 bagger.  (should have been 8 with brains applied or at least 6!).

It seems so often the ball on many league conitions is a half board light and too much on the adjoining pin of the pocket.  2 for me and 3 pin for you.

Regards,

Luckylefty
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: bradl on September 13, 2013, 06:12:25 PM
So often the move to stop 7 pins for me a lefty is to move slightly left and maybe get the hand a little more direct!  It happened last night.  Strike one lane 7 pin the other strike then 7, then a move slightly left and more direct 4 bagger.  (should have been 8 with brains applied or at least 6!).

It seems so often the ball on many league conitions is a half board light and too much on the adjoining pin of the pocket.  2 for me and 3 pin for you.

Regards,

Luckylefty

Interesting.. In juniors and college, I was always taught 7up:

For righties, 7up, 10 back: stick a 10 pin, move back roughly half an inch to change the entry angle. For 7 pins, move up half an inch.

Lefties need to reverse that. 7 pins, move back half an inch. 10 pins, move up half an inch.

Agreed totally about entry angle, but going more direct may not be the key there yet, because you already have a good line to the pocket; it is just that the ball isn't finishing in a strong position. If I leave something else in the back row, I'd stay there until something along with it is left (read: 4 pin, 6 pin), then consider the move left or right, or ball down.

BL.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: LuckyLefty on September 13, 2013, 06:30:38 PM
BradL,

These college bowling stars get all the info.  And in Juniors I quit keggling with my Rubber ball at age 11 due to my mangled right thumb and missed all the coaching!  Drat.  I will remember that rule and try to apply it now as it makes sense for the 7.

Probably my idea is more applicable to the left where disappearing head oil on a day where I am alone is at a much slower pace than on the right!  But moving back would let me leave my hand position alone!  Ahhhhh! 

I'm still confused on the 10 pin for me and 7 pin for you(not that I leave many) but what is going on with 7 UP  rule?  (revised) Please explain....

Thanks....

Regards,

Luckylefty

Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: scotts33 on September 13, 2013, 07:51:40 PM
Quote
For righties, 7up, 10 back: stick a 10 pin, move back roughly half an inch to change the entry angle. For 7 pins, move up half an inch.

How is this applicable?  The moving back and moving up assumes that you will be sliding/stopping at the same place and feed the ball into the lane up and back.  I argue that I don't care if you move up 6"s or back 6"s that you will wind up sliding in the same place and therefore feed the ball into the lane in the same place  Try it and post your shot and see where you wind up.  I say it will be within a few inches whether up or back.  So, that kills this discussion.  Now if you can loft it further or set it down shorter then yes the discussion continues but you better ne a way higher skilled bowler than the majority to do this on call.  Side to side is the real adjustment along with ball speed and rotation.

Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: charlest on September 14, 2013, 09:15:54 AM
Quote
For righties, 7up, 10 back: stick a 10 pin, move back roughly half an inch to change the entry angle. For 7 pins, move up half an inch.

How is this applicable?  The moving back and moving up assumes that you will be sliding/stopping at the same place and feed the ball into the lane up and back.  I argue that I don't care if you move up 6"s or back 6"s that you will wind up sliding in the same place and therefore feed the ball into the lane in the same place  Try it and post your shot and see where you wind up.  I say it will be within a few inches whether up or back.  So, that kills this discussion.  Now if you can loft it further or set it down shorter then yes the discussion continues but you better ne a way higher skilled bowler than the majority to do this on call.  Side to side is the real adjustment along with ball speed and rotation.


Scott,

I think the problem here (moving up a little or back a little on the approach) is that this provides different changes to people depending on their physical game. By this I mean, if you move some people back 6" on the approach, they will, UNCONSCIOUSLY or SUBCONSCIOUSLY, walk faster and, like you say, finish at the same spot. As a result they will throw the ball slightly faster.

Meanwhile other people will keep the same body/feet speed and wind up 6" further behind the foul line than they normally do. This results in the ball hooking sooner, because they are rolling it longer but NOT faster.

Similarly for people starting their approach 6" further up.The results differ for different people, depending on their body's reaction. We are all different.

When I start 6" further back, my body tends to want to finish at the same spot; so I tend to walk faster with slightly longer steps. That's one way I get more speed on the ball.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: mainzer on September 14, 2013, 10:17:36 AM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...

then the bowler needs to make adjustments, their are no bad balls anymore.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: northface28 on September 14, 2013, 02:58:53 PM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...

then the bowler needs to make adjustments, their are no bad balls anymore.

Just stop, there are bad balls. And before you start the whole "matchup" song and dance, I get that, I do. However, if you have to carry one ball around for an extended period of time for that one rare occasion where it will work, its a bad ball.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: swingset on September 14, 2013, 06:06:27 PM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...

then the bowler needs to make adjustments, their are no bad balls anymore.

Just stop, there are bad balls. And before you start the whole "matchup" song and dance, I get that, I do. However, if you have to carry one ball around for an extended period of time for that one rare occasion where it will work, its a bad ball.

There are very very few bad balls. There are mismatches, and sorry you can't accept it. Show me a ball you can't make work on but a few conditions, and I'll show you 20 guys who make it work all the time. You leave 10's with ball X? Guy next to you will roll 300's with it.

It's subjective, and the OP has a good point. Carry is much more of an issue of the player's game than the ball.

9 times out of 10 when people bemoan a ball that doesn't carry well, they're not adjusting or changing the entry angle, spin, target line or speed - all of which can change and improve a ball's carry and the carry that changes 10's hanging out.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: blesseddad on September 14, 2013, 08:31:15 PM
My home house has 1+ yr old SPL overlays and what I would call a medium volume shot at 42' in length. 95% of the 10's left in the house are due to one of three factors:
1. Hook monsters that have used up all their energy in the front (Wrong piece, wrong match-up, wrong zone or wrong surface)
2. Too much ball speed (Again, wrong piece, wrong surface or wrong zone ending in weak entry angle) Last time I checked, a ball has to slow down to hook and when it does not slow down, you have the wrong angle.
3. Not strong enough rolling ball and flat entry angle (AGAIN, wrong piece, wrong matchup, wrong zone or wrong surface)

Why do you think the pro shops are selling so many different pieces to combat all patterns, etc? Bowlers do't walk through the doors with 10+ ball arsenals because they like the colors...they are trying to match up for the best carry (best entry angle, best overall ball read on the lanes, best ball read front to back,  best ball motion and path, etc).
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: northface28 on September 14, 2013, 11:05:23 PM
Improper matchups between ball/cover/core/pattern/layout cause the wrong entry angle and thus, leave more 10 pins...

then the bowler needs to make adjustments, their are no bad balls anymore.

Just stop, there are bad balls. And before you start the whole "matchup" song and dance, I get that, I do. However, if you have to carry one ball around for an extended period of time for that one rare occasion where it will work, its a bad ball.

There are very very few bad balls. There are mismatches, and sorry you can't accept it. Show me a ball you can't make work on but a few conditions, and I'll show you 20 guys who make it work all the time. You leave 10's with ball X? Guy next to you will roll 300's with it.

It's subjective, and the OP has a good point. Carry is much more of an issue of the player's game than the ball.

9 times out of 10 when people bemoan a ball that doesn't carry well, they're not adjusting or changing the entry angle, spin, target line or speed - all of which can change and improve a ball's carry and the carry that changes 10's hanging out.

Anyway, if its a "mismatch" more often than not, its a bad ball for that particular player. Period, point blank. Sorry, you can't accept it.

There's other variables for not carrying the 10, carrydown,  bad rack, or pins off spot. Among other things.

Some of you guys are quick to blame the bowler. Sometimes, it is the ball. But its par for the course here, some guys are so smart here, but have a hard time booking 210 on the oh so easy "THS". Not good enough to repeat on house, but experts on ball motion. Only on ballreviews.com.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: Strider on September 14, 2013, 11:41:33 PM
I had one ball that was a 10 pin machine (Dynothane Thing).  I tried 2 different drillings and a multitude of surfaces and it left 10's with the best of them.  I'm sure for a majority of people there were no issues, so for me it was a matchup problem, but dang it was frustrating.  I know the difference between a good pocket hit and one slightly behind the head pin, but no matter how the ball faced the pocket or the angle, the ball left 10's FAR more than average.  I finally gave up and sold it, but I was determined to make the ball work (although I eventually failed) because it seemed to read the lane (under multiple conditions) so well.  Maybe it rolled out or hook/set inches early (just a fraction too early to see by eye)?  Maybe that's why other balls I have carry far better than average - maybe they give me that precious extra few inches on the good side?
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: scotts33 on September 14, 2013, 11:48:52 PM
Quote
I had one ball that was a 10 pin machine (Dynothane Thing).

And I loved that ball Geoff!  Shot a 300 with it gave it to a junior bowler who proceeded to shoot 300 with it.   ;D
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: mainzer on September 15, 2013, 12:52:23 AM
A bowling ball not matching with the player does not make a ball bad just makes that ball a bad choice.

NorthFace i will do the song and dance, their are no bad bowling balls just bad bowlers, to much  r and d goes into covers and cores. I used to blame equipment being bad when I was younger, when I finally accepted that the only thing wrong with the equipment was the guy throwing the ball my average went up 10 pins and my mental game improved dramatically.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: vkowalski1970 on September 15, 2013, 09:12:35 AM
+1 Mainzer

I have balls that just don't work for me but give to a friend and he shoots lights out and vice versa. The only issue is I'm not smart enough to know if the ball will be a good match before I buy it. Lol

I own about 15 balls right now and have one that is still puzzling me. It happens
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: avabob on September 15, 2013, 10:42:21 AM
Only way to really explain 10 pins, and more important, how to minimize them is to start with the 6 pin and work back to the pocket.  10 leaves come when the 6 pin doesn't get the 10.  6 misses the 10 on the right.  Maybe it falls in the gutter maybe it goes right around the 10.  This happens because the 3 hits the 6 just a little off center toward the 5 pin rather than dead square toward the 10.  The 3 hits the 6 off center because the ball deflects too much into the 3 pushing it more backward rather than directly into the 6. 

Bottom line it is always deflection.  Deflection happens because the ball has lost rotational energy.  Entry angle per se is much less a factor because increased entry angle in and of itself doesn't change the amount of deflection, only the direction of the deflection. 

Best adjustment for 10 pins is often to make a move in.  This helps you find a bit more oil and delay the loss of energy
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: blesseddad on September 15, 2013, 12:36:45 PM
Only way to really explain 10 pins, and more important, how to minimize them is to start with the 6 pin and work back to the pocket.  10 leaves come when the 6 pin doesn't get the 10.  6 misses the 10 on the right.  Maybe it falls in the gutter maybe it goes right around the 10.  This happens because the 3 hits the 6 just a little off center toward the 5 pin rather than dead square toward the 10.  The 3 hits the 6 off center because the ball deflects too much into the 3 pushing it more backward rather than directly into the 6. 

Bottom line it is always deflection.  Deflection happens because the ball has lost rotational energy.  Entry angle per se is much less a factor because increased entry angle in and of itself doesn't change the amount of deflection, only the direction of the deflection. 

Best adjustment for 10 pins is often to make a move in.  This helps you find a bit more oil and delay the loss of energy

+1

Let's simplify the whole thread: If you are leaving 10's, there is something wrong. It can be one of the countless symptoms mentioned above. Figure out what it was and the fix for that symptom. Problem solved...
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: scotts33 on September 15, 2013, 03:45:29 PM
Quote
Best adjustment for 10 pins is often to make a move in.  This helps you find a bit more oil and delay the loss of energy

Yep exactly as Bob said side to side not up and back.  Good post Bob!
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: avabob on September 15, 2013, 09:11:30 PM
One other thing about carry.  Maybe it is just me, but over the years, when I am having carry problems, changing balls is the least effective remedy.  I have joked many times that when my carry is good I can throw anything in my bag, and when my carry is bad I could drill up the entire pro shop and not find the right piece of equipment.  Slight over statement, but it is about speed rev rate and roll pattern, things that usually aren't significantly altered by changing equipment
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: LuckyLefty on October 01, 2013, 09:40:48 AM
It could be the difference between the left and the right.

Our house which always starts very fresh and sparky always morphs into sloppy at the back.  I believe a too viscous Kegel Prodigy oil for our house humidity leaving what for many on the left even very good bowlers call flat 7 city.  The move is almost always to the left with the feet and 1 board back left with the eyes to regain 10 in the pit!  In mid game 2.  Eventually often back where you started!

As to the 6 pin for a lefty or 4 for a righty.  I was flushing the hole or should I say striking or 9 ing every ball for about 2 games.  Unfortunately almost no doubles, sort of can you say strike 6 pin.  At one point I moved inside, bucket, then back 6 - 8.

Finally I remembered BradLs tip of moving up, immediately finally a 5 bagger with no 6 pins.  Oh my if this works next time I can't miss I expect about about 150 more pins for the night!  Yes, that many 6s....but it looked so good!

Thanks BradL.  I know this should be for the 10 for me but it worked!

REgards,

Luckylefty





Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: scotts33 on October 01, 2013, 12:00:59 PM
What does moving up or back do?
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: bradl on October 01, 2013, 01:01:37 PM
What does moving up or back do?

It changes the entry angle of the ball into the pocket. What is happening when you are leaving 10 pins is that the ball is hitting the pocket a bit late, which when the 6 pin is hit, it either wraps around the ring of the 10, or lays flat in the channel. Same thing for the 7 pin for lefties. Moving up or back that half inch changes the entry angle.

Now, note that that is different from moving left or right, in the fact that adjusting left or right helps when your ball is hooking too early and hits the pocket high or light. If you're leaving ringing 10s or 7s, you are already standing in the right spot and you're lined up. no need to change that to take out the corner pin. Change the angle that the ball is hitting the pocket, and you're good. When you start to leave something else besides the corner pin (basically, anything *NOT* in the back row), then it is time to move left or right.

BL.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: scotts33 on October 01, 2013, 01:37:37 PM
How does it change the entry angle by moving up or back on the approach?
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: spmcgivern on October 02, 2013, 07:54:45 AM
How does it change the entry angle by moving up or back on the approach?

I agree scotts33, moving up and back on the approach makes no sense to me.  I am willing to bet those that do will end up in the same spot at the foul line anyway. 

To change your entry angle, your BALL must get to the breakpoint at a different angle.  This means moving laterally (left or right) on the approach.

Now, if I am leaving 10-pins, it is usually because my ball isn't getting into a roll (ring 10 usually) or my ball is rolling out (flat 10).  Each case has a different solution.  There isn't one fix for both.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: Arone24 on October 02, 2013, 08:25:20 AM
I must be one the few that moving up and back works for the majority of the time. If I leave a ten I can move up 2 inches and go right back to carrying 9 times out of 10. If I move up too much I'll leave a 7.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: Joe Cool on October 02, 2013, 09:23:05 AM
So playing off of this question, earlier this week I saw four 5-7-10s left on the same pair not all by the same bowler and on very different lines with different balls.  There were also 5 light pocket 7-10s left (not as unusual, but noted because of the 5-7-10s).  In general people bowled okay on the pair overall, but there were certainly some odd results at times.

I agree that the pins (single pins especially) tell a story and I use those all the time to adjust no just based on what I am seeing, but what is happening to others as well; however sometimes something isn't quite right either.  4 5-7-10s on the same pair?  Seems a bit excessive for being decent bowlers on that pair.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: avabob on October 02, 2013, 02:45:22 PM
5-7-10 pops up occasionally, but rarerly.  Only time I have seen more than one has been when there is a off spot problem, usually one not noticeable from the front.  We had a pair where I use to bowl league that would yield an average of 1 5-7-10  per night, always on the left lane. 
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: bradl on October 02, 2013, 06:32:16 PM
How does it change the entry angle by moving up or back on the approach?

I'm trying to remember what my coaches said back then. Keep in mind, this was 25 years ago.

Also, I should caveat this by saying that I am not talking about a 6" or full step back or forward on the approach. I'm talking maybe 1" or 2" at the most.

Now. As for how it changes the entry angle. With that small of a move, the ball, which should be on its same line to the pocket, should start its turn to face the pocket earlier or later (depending on if you moved up or back). This is slightly different from the ball checking up earlier due to carrydown, which you would have to adjust left or right to find the oil for your ball to push down to the breakpoint you are looking for. But the slight move up or back is sometimes all that is needed to change that entry angle.

I must be one the few that moving up and back works for the majority of the time. If I leave a ten I can move up 2 inches and go right back to carrying 9 times out of 10. If I move up too much I'll leave a 7.

That's exactly how it is for me as well, but slightly opposite. If I leave a 7, I'll move up, and can carry it. If I leave a 10, I'll move back and can carry it. This is all assuming same line, same breakpoint. Once the ball checks up before the breakpoint, then I'd have to move left.

BL.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: spmcgivern on October 03, 2013, 10:11:38 AM
How does it change the entry angle by moving up or back on the approach?

I'm trying to remember what my coaches said back then. Keep in mind, this was 25 years ago.

Also, I should caveat this by saying that I am not talking about a 6" or full step back or forward on the approach. I'm talking maybe 1" or 2" at the most.

Now. As for how it changes the entry angle. With that small of a move, the ball, which should be on its same line to the pocket, should start its turn to face the pocket earlier or later (depending on if you moved up or back). This is slightly different from the ball checking up earlier due to carrydown, which you would have to adjust left or right to find the oil for your ball to push down to the breakpoint you are looking for. But the slight move up or back is sometimes all that is needed to change that entry angle.

I must be one the few that moving up and back works for the majority of the time. If I leave a ten I can move up 2 inches and go right back to carrying 9 times out of 10. If I move up too much I'll leave a 7.

That's exactly how it is for me as well, but slightly opposite. If I leave a 7, I'll move up, and can carry it. If I leave a 10, I'll move back and can carry it. This is all assuming same line, same breakpoint. Once the ball checks up before the breakpoint, then I'd have to move left.

BL.


Maybe I am just different.  But I would love to do a Digitrax with someone to see what benefits can be made by moving up and down on the approach.  I wonder if it is more psychological where moving forward may make you slow down a bit because you are "closer" to the foul line and the opposite for moving back.

But I also make 1/2 board left and right adjustments.  Not always because I have to move, but just trying to stay ahead of larger adjustments.  And people still call me crazy.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: scotts33 on October 03, 2013, 10:16:25 AM
Quote
Maybe I am just different.  But I would love to do a Digitrax with someone to see what benefits can be made by moving up and down on the approach.  I wonder if it is more psychological where moving forward may make you slow down a bit because you are "closer" to the foul line and the opposite for moving back.

But I also make 1/2 board left and right adjustments.  Not always because I have to move, but just trying to stay ahead of larger adjustments.  And people still call me crazy.

Completely agree. 
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: bradl on October 03, 2013, 02:26:03 PM
Maybe I am just different.  But I would love to do a Digitrax with someone to see what benefits can be made by moving up and down on the approach.  I wonder if it is more psychological where moving forward may make you slow down a bit because you are "closer" to the foul line and the opposite for moving back.

But I also make 1/2 board left and right adjustments.  Not always because I have to move, but just trying to stay ahead of larger adjustments.  And people still call me crazy.

Fair enough. But let's also keep in mind that for something like this, there isn't just one solution. A teammate of mine was taught as you do, which is 1/2 board adjustments for the corner pins. Both can work. It's just a matter of adjusting where the breakpoint will be further down the lane length-wise versus width-wise, and that change being ever so slight.

But like I said, there's more than one way to handle it, but it all comes down to which way are you more comfortable with.

BL.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: spmcgivern on October 07, 2013, 07:50:58 AM
Maybe I am just different.  But I would love to do a Digitrax with someone to see what benefits can be made by moving up and down on the approach.  I wonder if it is more psychological where moving forward may make you slow down a bit because you are "closer" to the foul line and the opposite for moving back.

But I also make 1/2 board left and right adjustments.  Not always because I have to move, but just trying to stay ahead of larger adjustments.  And people still call me crazy.

Fair enough. But let's also keep in mind that for something like this, there isn't just one solution. A teammate of mine was taught as you do, which is 1/2 board adjustments for the corner pins. Both can work. It's just a matter of adjusting where the breakpoint will be further down the lane length-wise versus width-wise, and that change being ever so slight.

But like I said, there's more than one way to handle it, but it all comes down to which way are you more comfortable with.

BL.


I agree in that bowling adjustments should work for a bowler.  But to advise to bowlers that moving forward and backward on the approach 1/2" as a way to adjust the breakpoint isn't right.  It is just bad teaching in my mind.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: Greazygeo on October 07, 2013, 08:52:02 AM
I agree in that bowling adjustments should work for a bowler.  But to advise to bowlers that moving forward and backward on the approach 1/2" as a way to adjust the breakpoint isn't right.  It is just bad teaching in my mind.
But it works so how is it not right?  I move forward/ backward as well as half board moves.  Just depends on what I am seeing. 
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: ithinkican on October 07, 2013, 09:26:11 AM
TO be honest with you, YES! I carry a 230 average. I have a 420 rev rate. I have a 30 degree axis tilt with a 4&7/8" right and 1/8" up PAP. I leave a tremendous amount of ten pins with hammer and ebonite bowling balls.  I am not saying they are bad companies, I find hammer to have very versatile smooth hooking balls but the problem I have with them is the ten pins so they are not my company of choice. That includes hammer and ebonite balls of all levels and layouts with the exception of the cyclone and black taboo. My storm, dv8, track, and columbia balls work just as well as my hammer balls but leave me with nearly 1/3 the number of ten pins of my hammer and ebonite equipment. I should have easily had a 900 series multiple nights with my taboo original but the 10 pin didnt want to cooperate and it stayed rebellious. I did shoot 2 800s with it.  If i missed my BP by 2 boards right I left ten pins. Most storm balls dont give me this problem with the exception to the sync and tropical balls. my highest series is actually with my storm frantic. I made a mistake on the 12th ball in game one and left an 8 pins in game 2 then made two errors the last game but the ball helped me out and I finished the night with a 292 average. So I have to say that for the most part the bowler is the reason for the ten pins but I have to agree that some companies do not have the information or chemistry to develop the manifolds and coverstocks to compete with storm, brunswick, and roto grip.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: spmcgivern on October 07, 2013, 12:44:32 PM
But it works so how is it not right?  I move forward/ backward as well as half board moves.  Just depends on what I am seeing. 

If I do a rain dance and it starts raining, does that mean it works?

People, you are saying a 1/2" move forward or back CHANGES your breakpoint/entry angle? Do me a favor, next time you go bowl and make a forward or backward move, do this:
When all is said and done, come back here and tell me your 1/2" move made all the difference in kicking the ten out.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: Greazygeo on October 07, 2013, 03:37:54 PM


If I do a rain dance and it starts raining, does that mean it works?

People, you are saying a 1/2" move forward or back CHANGES your breakpoint/entry angle? Do me a favor, next time you go bowl and make a forward or backward move, do this:
  • record the EXACT distance from the foul line you are on each and every shot. 
  • record each and every shot you release in respect to target and board hit at the breakpoint.
  • record your velocity on each and every ball you throw.

When all is said and done, come back here and tell me your 1/2" move made all the difference in kicking the ten out.
yeah dont count on me doing any of that for you. Two seasons ago I was leaving 12-15 ten pins a nite.  Did a bunch of research and one method suggested moving up/back. So I went out and actually tried it. It worked. So I still do it when needed.  For me its a half of my shoe length.

The half board moves work too.   I use these moves more often than up/ back.  Lots of ways to adjust for stuff, just need to find what works. 
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: itsallaboutme on October 07, 2013, 05:30:19 PM
I hope you guys making 1/2 board moves don't wonder why you shoot 170 when the lanes are transitioning.

The next thing you're going to say is you move 1/2 right when you flat 10 in the forth frame of the second game.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: Greazygeo on October 07, 2013, 05:49:25 PM
I hope you guys making 1/2 board moves don't wonder why you shoot 170 when the lanes are transitioning.

The next thing you're going to say is you move 1/2 right when you flat 10 in the forth frame of the second game.
Second game?  Thats more like first ball after shadow balls where I bowl.  Where I bowl 170 isnt really that bad either.
Title: Re: Leaving 10 pins
Post by: spmcgivern on October 07, 2013, 06:14:03 PM
The reason for all the record keeping is to show even the better league bowlers aren't consistent enough to justify such minor changes.  The THS allows bowlers to not have to be accurate and that's good because most aren't.  If you are leaving 10-pins, the THS provides the bowler with the means to make substantial adjustments and also be able to improve carry.  You don't have to nickel and dime the adjustments.

If we are talking about sport shots I still doubt the effectiveness of making such minor adjustments forward and backward on the approach.  But if you can hit half boards at the breakpoint and control your speed within one-tenth of a mph, then go ahead and make those moves.  I really would like to see a digitrax of these movements.