BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: TheGom on January 15, 2014, 08:54:22 PM
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1) the dif between VAL line weight holes and Gradient weight hole lines
2) on a Roto Grip webcast with CDB as a host, they showed her Uproar and Asylum drilled up and mentioned a 8" weight hole, which she said increased her continuation.
8" from what please?
3) if one is drilling a MoTion Hole and it lands on the serial number....now what?
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3) if one is drilling a MoTion Hole and it lands on the serial number....now what?
I seen this come up before, you just re-engrave the number in another spot.(it doesn't even have to be the same number)
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1) Gradiant line xholes are based off your pap and val. Just saying val xholes doesn't tell us much.
2) Likely from her center grip across and through her pap. For lower rev players putting an xhole on that line 2.5" past the pap will give those results and land 7-8" from a bowlers pap.
3) Drilling a large hole through the serial number should not cover all of the numbers/letters. Double check USBC rules. It should state in any case where the serial number no longer exists you can add a new one and it can be just one digit so long as the ball is identifiable.
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1) the dif between VAL line weight holes and Gradient weight hole lines?
All weight holes can and should be measured through your PAP. The Gradient Line weight holes are moreso for Asym balls to fine tune the reaction. Gradient Line holes will eventually end up on the VAL from the PSA. The Gradient Line holes have different rules for Symmetricals involving the PSA, which on syms is proven to be in the thumb hole. Holes on the VAL will tend to make the ball smoother, IMO, whether increasing or decreasing flare because, theoritically it moves the PSA closer to the VAL on Syms. To me the P3 and P4 are a must on Asyms if you want to increase the strength of the PSA. You can go VAL on Asyms but the Gradient Line Holes will just give you a more predictable reaction out of what you are looking for the ball to do. Mo Pinel suggests Radical's new layout sheets for Symmetricals. I suggest you go to the WIKI in the forum at forum.bowlingchat.net. It has incredible information that can help you determine how to layout a ball and how to fine tune it. A lot of people ask these questions and I suggest the WIKI and they don't read the information but you can learn A LOT from reading it.
2) on a Roto Grip webcast with CDB as a host, they showed her Uproar and Asylum drilled up and mentioned a 8" weight hole, which she said increased her continuation.
8" from what please?
I'm unaware of what this is talking about. Perhaps you can provide the link that refers to this?
3) if one is drilling a MoTion Hole and it lands on the serial number....now what?
Nothing to fear, all the MoTion Holes I've drilled for myself ends up in the serial numbers. I have a layout note book with all my balls, layouts and serial numbers. If I ever need to know it, I can just go in the bag and get it. As KidLost has mentioned, as long as some of the numbers exist, it should be fine. I am unaware of the rule on that, however, there are not many tournaments that require serial numbers of balls.
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From the USBC Equipment Specifications Manual: -- JohnP
Any bowling ball used in USBC certified competition must
be approved and identifiable as a ball listed in the “approved
bowling ball†list located on the Equipment
Specifications page on www.bowl.com. Additionally, for
identification purposes, each ball must have some form of
serial number (this may be engraved or re-engraved by the
bowler). Note that only the serial number may be re-engraved
by the bowler; the ball's original brand and product name logos
must be engraved on each ball.
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RC, I have been over at BCW and spent a lot of time learning over there, thanks.
On your response on the weight hole, I asked this question because someone suggested a benchmark drilling of 40 x 3 x 40 with a weight hole 2" down on the VAL line.
Over at BCW I looked at the Final Gradient Line sheet and the last example was a Symm ball and it showed the Gradient line to run from the PAP to the middle of the thumb hole which as you mentioned is the PSA on a Symm. I then looked at Radical's Layout Sheet and in the Symm drillings the third example "Pin Beside with Weight Hole it shows a weight hole 1.5" down on the VAL...two different weight hole lines from one man, Mo. So thus the question
On the 8" Weight hole, RG had a LIVE Webcast and showed off CDB and WM new RG balls drilled up. (Uproar, Asylum, and Hyper Cell) CDB had the same layouts on both Symm balls and both had a weight hole added (as per Shlem) 8" away to help add some continuation to the ball. They just showed pictures of the layouts and of course 8" away one could not see the location of it and how it was based off of.
Thanks for the info
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USUALLY, and I have not seen the CDB video. 8 inch weightholes usually means 8 inches from grip center, often on a line drawn from the grip center through the cg.
This hole is usually past the north south equator of the ball (which is at 6 3/4 measured straight out from the grip center) and if you believe in old static weight theories it often raises the top weight of the ball and lowers side weight. This because it takes weight out of the southern hemisphere of the ball and raises top weight.
Or if you are a Brunswick devotee the hole away from the Pap almost 3 inches creates instability and increases flare.
Whatever these holes increase reaction! I've changed balls from Pigs to Pokes with these 8 inch from grip center holes!
REgards,
Luckylefty
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On syms, it really isn't going to make a huge difference between the 2" down and 1 1/2" down. Also, be aware, on Gradient Holes the line travels up the VAL through the PAP 6 3/4" so a P1 for some will be different then a P1 for others.
Mo has gone to the Radical sheets for Symmetricals. You can go with 2" down but as I stated before, it really isn't going to make a huge difference from that 1/2". The sheet is generic and gives people a bland look at some ideas for layouts. I still advise you to use your benchmark and vary from that as written. Throw the ball, then determine what you need based on that.
It will be interesting to see the 8" hole and how it makes the ball react. I wonder if this is a variation of the MoTion Hole.
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Righty,
I believe you are saying a lot of significant things. I am going to try and summarize in my words and you tell me if I am on target.
1. Gradient holes have more significance on Assym balls.
2. Holes up and down the VAL smooth out reaction for both types of balls.
3. the difference in reaction between double thumb, P4, P3, and P2 you see on assyms.
I have had very few weightholes down VALs except on a revs leverage ball. How do you compare the change in reaction they introduce to say a P3 weighthole Righty?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Righty,
I believe you are saying a lot of significant things. I am going to try and summarize in my words and you tell me if I am on target.
1. Gradient holes have more significance on Assym balls.
2. Holes up and down the VAL smooth out reaction for both types of balls.
3. the difference in reaction between double thumb, P4, P3, and P2 you see on assyms.
I have had very few weightholes down VALs except on a revs leverage ball. How do you compare the change in reaction they introduce to say a P3 weighthole Righty?
Regards,
Luckylefty
Exactly my points LL. For me, Holes down the VAL get into a roll earlier and are smooth, they don't really corner as I move deeper. P3's get the ball to hook later. I use P3's for balls when I move further in and holes on the VAL when I need the ball to roll and play straighter. I rarely use P4's because I feel that I can just DT for all of that. I like getting creative with weight holes on syms because I can manipulate the PSA. On Asyms, I have 2 basic layouts and then adjust the hole to whether or not I want the MB to be stronger or weaker.
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P3s for later break, no P4s.
When and for what type of ball flight do you use DTs or Double Thumb.? I know what my eyes see on videos.
Hey if you have time, holes on the Val but UP. In your mind what do they do.
Regards,
Luckylefty
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No P4's for me, I just don't like the idea of drilling through the MB on my own equipment and if I need the ball to be strong, I'll just use the DT layout and a P3 or my Benchmark with a DT hole. That doesn't mean I won't drill it for customers. For me DT get's the ball rolling earlier which helps me take advantage of my rev rate with my axis rotation higher than most. I only use it either in really weak balls or mid level balls I intend to move deeper in with.
Holes up the VAL will reduce flare. Stats and the ball will determine what the ball does. For me, it makes the ball do absolutely nothing downlane so I tend to stay away from them unless I'm doing something strong for a short pattern and I want to get the ball into a roll and quit. Someone like Louis Watson Jr., it get's the ball rolling heavier for his heavy hand.
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The hole 2" down the VAL from the grip centerline is used on symmetrical balls to change the shape of the reaction, moving the psa toward the hole and reducing the drill angle. This makes the ball start up earlier and is the only way to end up with a significantly lower drill angle since the psa is always in the thumb hole without a balance hole. A P3 hole is used if you're happy with the reaction shape but want more hook. A hole past the VAL would reduce the drill angle even more but the back end flares would probably hit it. -- JohnP
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Some very interesting points here!
1. Louis Watson, oh man! Haven't forgotten how incredible that toss is! What is he up to 150 300 games?
2. Holes up on Val(I agree sort of deadening! I have often when CG is up drilled holes out near 7 inches from Grip center when UP and also often angled and seem some strong reactions or increased reactions.
3. Righty, I am curious on your two benchmark drills that you usually use?
4. John P and Righty, holes down VAL are not often used for Assyms?
5. Just Rico has commented or I have seen it referenced that he has commented on the movement of bowties based on the quadrants weightholes are put. Please elaborate? How does moving the bowtie affect the reaction?
REgards,
Luckylefty
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4. John P and Righty, holes down VAL are not often used for Assyms?
The psa on asymmetrical balls is strong enough that a hole down the VAL wouldn't move it, and strong enough that it stays near the marked mass bias instead of moving to the thumb hole. So the drill angle will end up being the angle between the mb to pin and pin to PAP lines. -- JohnP
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+1. With John P. And I will add that gradient line holes are more suited for asyms, you'll do more with those than holes down the VAL.
1.) Yea, his numbers are like a little less than 300 total, counting the unsanctioned ones.
3.) with my axis rotation and mid to lower speed, I like using shorter pin to PAP's, my BM is 85x3.25"x45 on syms(basic label) and 75x3.5x35 on asyms. I can adjust the VAL angle bigger on asyms for stronger or smoother balls. I like to use P2-P3's, I only used DT holes on weaker balls.
5.) The bowtie will adjust with the flare of the ball. More flare, wider bowtie, more ball coverage. I will tell you I'm not fully informed enough to tell you anymore than that.
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John P and Rightycomplex,
Thanks for your answers. 3.25 pin to PAP! Wow, on the shots I've seen in your area I could see some of those pins. On our friction.....hmmm?
Regarding Lewis Watson. How many sanctioned would you guess?
Regards,
Luckylefty
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Yea, That short pin distance works on most patterns with the right ball and surface. The objective is to get the ball rolling early and getting it to roll forward for a bit longer. It also helps recover on off tosses. On asyms, it helps reduce flare and makes the asym usable on THS.
As far as Louis goes, I'm pretty sure it's around 175 sanctioned. He reeled off 20 in a row to start a league set this season and finished with 793. I think he's got 5-300's and 2-800's already this season just from what I know.
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Righty,
That 3.25 pin to pap distance still works for me if I can find some oil, but I don't find much of it too often anymore.
I had just pulled out my beloved 3 3/8 Crimson Red Sledgehammer around here recently and just really couldn't get too much out of it here...of course my angles are much different as it is pin down...mb on VAL
Hmmm Something to thing about....
Regards,
Luckylefty