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General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: thewhiz on January 03, 2017, 12:03:13 AM

Title: Sandbagging
Post by: thewhiz on January 03, 2017, 12:03:13 AM
I have a guy in my league who clearly sandbags.  I am high average in the league and we pick teams.  I get stuck with him every year cause I get last pick.  No one wants him.  Been on my team 2 years now.   Its not a big money league but that's beside the point.  Sick of his crap.  I talked to the league President he said nothing he can do.  Wanted him thrown out of the league.  He said we can't until he does something wrong.  Well sandbagging is wrong.  Anything else I can do to get rid of him?  It is a sanctioned league.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: WOWZERS on January 03, 2017, 05:47:57 AM
Problem is that you essentially have to be able to prove intent. Has he said something to you that you can provide as evidence? Is there a pattern of his scores that you can provide in the absence of a conversation?

Without evidence, I see the President's point. In this day and age, as bad as this sounds, I could see the bowler suing (rediculous, I know).
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Juggernaut on January 03, 2017, 07:55:07 AM
Sandbaggers suck, but they've been around since bowling began, and nobody has figured out yet how to stop it.

 Good luck.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: djgook on January 03, 2017, 09:26:39 AM
You can't stop sandbaggers. Like me I am a new bowler with a 130 average, and people think I am a sandbagger cause I posted 2- 200 games in practice and a 180 in my league once. I am not a sandbagger I am just new to the game of bowling. Its like sharks in pool and refs in pro sports throwing games.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: AlonzoHarris on January 03, 2017, 10:33:53 AM
What is his angle? Why does he do it?
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Aloarjr810 on January 03, 2017, 11:16:55 AM
Exactly how does this league work with forming teams? That you get last choice of players.

Whats the format? Low average team captian gets first pick of available playes, high ave capt get last pick?
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: thewhiz on January 03, 2017, 01:04:46 PM
Yes too 16 averages.  Low picks first and so on.  Like fantasy football.  First round bottom guy gets two picks a so on.  4 on a team.  Only way for me not to end up with him is for me to bag.  I have known this guy for 30 years.  Been doing it forever.  Never bowled on a team with him before.  Best part is he is like 65.  We go to states last year and he sucked so all that bagging did no good.  Had him on a Monday night team 2 years ago (should have known better) we were winning and he goes to my girlfriend who is kind a a new bowler averages 165 and tells her "slow down you don't want your score to high".  Really she's trying her butt off to do well and you say that.  We pick out own teams that night so the end of the year I told him get lost.  He got thrown off another team on Friday cause he was bagging.  They threw him off in 3 weeks.  It was that obvious
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: rackattack on January 03, 2017, 05:09:56 PM
When you put your lineup in just type Bagger in for his name. Tell him the name will change when the attitude changes. It could be the guy just lost it and would rather be thought of as bagger than a poor bowler.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Wt75 on January 07, 2017, 08:00:42 PM
In my previous life when bowling I was accused of being a sandbagger and I understand why. There were 4 centers in our town one which was close to my house, it was also the most difficult to score in. Bowled league twice a week and practice on the weekends. Fall average was always 180-185. Would go to other houses and shoot 630-650. I was just trying to get better by bowling on a hard condition.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: jumba98 on January 07, 2017, 08:44:06 PM
We have a bowling center in our area that is very run down, and poor lane conditions a lot of the guys who bowl there carry averages of around 20-30 pins lower than if they bowled somewhere else.and they bowl there for that exact reason. they always cash in the local handicap events. would you consider that sandbagging or not??
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: SG17 on January 07, 2017, 10:03:20 PM
We have a bowling center in our area that is very run down, and poor lane conditions a lot of the guys who bowl there carry averages of around 20-30 pins lower than if they bowled somewhere else.and they bowl there for that exact reason. they always cash in the local handicap events. would you consider that sandbagging or not??

that's a tough one.  to me, it is pretty much the same as sandbagging, but also not.

This is similar to the guys that only bowl in a sport league, but this year with no sport certifications from USBC and I assume no rerating of averages (haven't bowled handicap tournaments this season so don't know) that would be essentially legalized sandbagging.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: heycoach on January 08, 2017, 06:53:23 PM
If all games bowled were recorded sandbagging could be kept under control. Bowling alley should be rated just like golf courses. Scores should be entered into a database after every league and or tournament. My feeling is USBC doesn't want to do anything about this issue because it would cost money they don't want to give up.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: spmcgivern on January 09, 2017, 08:13:11 AM
If all games bowled were recorded sandbagging could be kept under control. Bowling alley should be rated just like golf courses. Scores should be entered into a database after every league and or tournament. My feeling is USBC doesn't want to do anything about this issue because it would cost money they don't want to give up.
Difference is a golf course has little it can do to change the slope rating.  Sure, cut the grass different, placement of holes/tees, but the course is the course.

At a bowling center, the shot can be easy or hard day in day out.  I like the concept, but not sure it will be easy to implement.

If people bowl at dungeons for the sole purpose of having a low book average, then that is suspect.  I have even seen people bowl lower than possible in the dungeon and justify their scores because it is a dungeon making the situation worse.

I used to get bent out of shape with sandbagging.  I have since refrained and no longer participate in handicap events.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Keith Frye on January 09, 2017, 08:28:06 AM
Quote
This is similar to the guys that only bowl in a sport league, but this year with no sport certifications from USBC and I assume no rerating of averages (haven't bowled handicap tournaments this season so don't know) that would be essentially legalized sandbagging.

Although sport leagues no longer have to submit lane tapes, leagues using sport or challenge patterns are supposed to register as a sport league.  Averages from those leagues are subject to average adjustment.

Of course there are those who may attempt to take advantage of the situation and not properly register the league.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: notclay on January 09, 2017, 10:05:13 AM
Sandbagging is done by desperate people looking for an advantage because their bowling cannot stand on it's own merits.  Plain and simple...


I'd suggest getting people to start asking him why he's so desperate.  When people start calling him out and making an example of him the behavior might change.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Good Times Good Times on January 09, 2017, 10:20:08 AM
Sandbagging is done by desperate people looking for an advantage because their bowling cannot stand on it's own merits.  Plain and simple...


I'd suggest getting people to start asking him why he's so desperate.  When people start calling him out and making an example of him the behavior might change.

^^^^^^^^

Early candidate for 2017 post of the year.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: dmonroe814 on January 09, 2017, 11:54:08 AM
Contact USBC.   I believe that all leagues are inherently by invitation.   So if someone's actions are disruptive to the league,  that bowler can be asked not to return.   It may take a letter from the league BOD.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: JazlarVonSteich on January 10, 2017, 09:27:09 AM
We have a bowling center in our area that is very run down, and poor lane conditions a lot of the guys who bowl there carry averages of around 20-30 pins lower than if they bowled somewhere else.and they bowl there for that exact reason. they always cash in the local handicap events. would you consider that sandbagging or not??

If they are bowling there on purpose so they can take a low average into handicap tournaments, then yes, clearly sandbagging.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Joeyd on January 10, 2017, 09:43:01 AM
Contact USBC.   I believe that all leagues are inherently by invitation.   So if someone's actions are disruptive to the league,  that bowler can be asked not to return.   It may take a letter from the league BOD.

Here is your winner, ladies and gentlemen...

Review the rulebook (or contact USBC, as poster above suggested), as there are rules regarding requesting for dismissal of a player.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: northface28 on January 10, 2017, 09:48:40 AM
Is it sandbagging to intentionally bowl at boneyards?
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Impending Doom on January 10, 2017, 10:35:59 AM
Is it sandbagging to intentionally bowl at boneyards?

Depends on who you ask.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Mbosco on January 10, 2017, 11:40:55 AM
Is it sandbagging to intentionally bowl at boneyards?

If you were to call that bagging, I think you would have to also call it bagging if someone knowingly did not bowl at the highest scoring house available, which is a notion I reject.  I think if it's a certified house and the person is really putting the effort in then I think their average is within the parameters of what the system was designed to be.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Anthony LaMagna on January 10, 2017, 09:04:11 PM
Not much can be done.  In one league I'm in, a competitive men's league, the point system was changed to five points for high team series as opposed to one or two.  That cuts down on throwing away spares in the first or second game.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: J_w73 on January 16, 2017, 01:48:14 PM
How obvious is his sandbagging? 

Rule 10a #3

104a. Team Captainís Authority

3. Be responsible for the conduct and attendance of the team in league play. It is within the captainís authority to permanently remove any player from the team. If requested, good and sufficient reason for the removal must be furnished to the board.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: mainzer on January 16, 2017, 06:16:20 PM
We have a bowling center in our area that is very run down, and poor lane conditions a lot of the guys who bowl there carry averages of around 20-30 pins lower than if they bowled somewhere else.and they bowl there for that exact reason. they always cash in the local handicap events. would you consider that sandbagging or not??

If they are bowling there on purpose so they can take a low average into handicap tournaments, then yes, clearly sandbagging.

So in a city with Multiple houses every bowler should bowl at the highest scoring house or they are sandbaggers? What a joke dude.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: JazlarVonSteich on January 17, 2017, 08:38:29 AM
We have a bowling center in our area that is very run down, and poor lane conditions a lot of the guys who bowl there carry averages of around 20-30 pins lower than if they bowled somewhere else.and they bowl there for that exact reason. they always cash in the local handicap events. would you consider that sandbagging or not??

If they are bowling there on purpose so they can take a low average into handicap tournaments, then yes, clearly sandbagging.

So in a city with Multiple houses every bowler should bowl at the highest scoring house or they are sandbaggers? What a joke dude.

I didn't say that. I said if you are purposely bowling at a low average house in order to take that low average and cash at handicap tournaments (at an easier house), then yes you are sandbagging.

The post said that these bowlers were doing it for that exact reason. Not sure how you can't call it sandbagging.

You can call my opinion a joke all you want, but if someone is doing the above, it is a clear abuse in order to cash. I'm not saying people should move to a different house. And I'd say the majority are not at that particular house specifically to carry a lower average into the tournaments. But for those who are, it IS sandbagging.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: trash heap on January 17, 2017, 09:03:39 AM
We have a bowling center in our area that is very run down, and poor lane conditions a lot of the guys who bowl there carry averages of around 20-30 pins lower than if they bowled somewhere else.and they bowl there for that exact reason. they always cash in the local handicap events. would you consider that sandbagging or not??

If they are bowling there on purpose so they can take a low average into handicap tournaments, then yes, clearly sandbagging.

So in a city with Multiple houses every bowler should bowl at the highest scoring house or they are sandbaggers? What a joke dude.

I didn't say that. I said if you are purposely bowling at a low average house in order to take that low average and cash at handicap tournaments (at an easier house), then yes you are sandbagging.

The post said that these bowlers were doing it for that exact reason. Not sure how you can't call it sandbagging.

You can call my opinion a joke all you want, but if someone is doing the above, it is a clear abuse in order to cash. I'm not saying people should move to a different house. And I'd say the majority are not at that particular house specifically to carry a lower average into the tournaments. But for those who are, it IS sandbagging.

You can't automatically call this sandbagging. If someone is at that house and is trying their best, then it is not bagging. No rules a being broken. Unfortunately this is a flaw in the USBC. Until patterns are rated (weekly) it is all legal.

I don't understand this.  The person that wants the challenge, and not have an easy shot every week is in the WRONG?  Sorry that idea is messed up.

 

Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Impending Doom on January 17, 2017, 09:45:28 AM
Let's just get rid of handicap. *Seriousface*
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: northface28 on January 17, 2017, 11:26:15 AM
Let's just get rid of handicap. *Seriousface*

You think bowling is dead now? lol I bowl in a league where I get negative handicap, you can't make this shit up.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: mainzer on January 17, 2017, 11:30:06 AM
We have a bowling center in our area that is very run down, and poor lane conditions a lot of the guys who bowl there carry averages of around 20-30 pins lower than if they bowled somewhere else.and they bowl there for that exact reason. they always cash in the local handicap events. would you consider that sandbagging or not??

If they are bowling there on purpose so they can take a low average into handicap tournaments, then yes, clearly sandbagging.

So in a city with Multiple houses every bowler should bowl at the highest scoring house or they are sandbaggers? What a joke dude.

I didn't say that. I said if you are purposely bowling at a low average house in order to take that low average and cash at handicap tournaments (at an easier house), then yes you are sandbagging.

The post said that these bowlers were doing it for that exact reason. Not sure how you can't call it sandbagging.

You can call my opinion a joke all you want, but if someone is doing the above, it is a clear abuse in order to cash. I'm not saying people should move to a different house. And I'd say the majority are not at that particular house specifically to carry a lower average into the tournaments. But for those who are, it IS sandbagging.

You can't automatically call this sandbagging. If someone is at that house and is trying their best, then it is not bagging. No rules a being broken. Unfortunately this is a flaw in the USBC. Until patterns are rated (weekly) it is all legal.

I don't understand this.  The person that wants the challenge, and not have an easy shot every week is in the WRONG?  Sorry that idea is messed up.

 



+1 Trash Heap
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Impending Doom on January 17, 2017, 11:33:36 AM
Let's just get rid of handicap. *Seriousface*

You think bowling is dead now? lol I bowl in a league where I get negative handicap, you can't make this shit up.
Don't get me started on my bowling should die so it can be born again diatribe.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: xrayjay on January 17, 2017, 08:32:58 PM
With all the rain we getting in NorCal, we need more sandbags. We  also have sand bagging by sandbaggers too.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: JazlarVonSteich on January 18, 2017, 12:43:19 PM
You can't automatically call this sandbagging. If someone is at that house and is trying their best, then it is not bagging. No rules a being broken. Unfortunately this is a flaw in the USBC. Until patterns are rated (weekly) it is all legal.

I don't understand this.  The person that wants the challenge, and not have an easy shot every week is in the WRONG?  Sorry that idea is messed up.

Again, that is NOT the person I am talking about. I'm talking about the person who is only bowling at the lower scoring alley, knowingly and with INTENT to use that lower average at a higher scoring house to cash in a handicap tournament. In other words, the person that is purposely bowling there in order to make gains at the big handicap tournament. That is, indeed, sandbagging.

Yes, there is a fine line. Yes, there is some grey area. Yes, it is very hard to properly regulate. No, there is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging yourself at a harder house. I NEVER said that. But to go bowl at that house just so you can make profit in a tournament... sandbagging. No different than good teams playing rec league softball and goofing around, and then going into rec league divisions in high level tournaments.

And if that is the only house available to bowl in (or only house close enough), then that is also not sandbagging. Again, I'm talking about the people doing it on purpose. Pretty sure that's what the OP said. Just addressing those people.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: northface28 on January 18, 2017, 05:03:37 PM
You can't automatically call this sandbagging. If someone is at that house and is trying their best, then it is not bagging. No rules a being broken. Unfortunately this is a flaw in the USBC. Until patterns are rated (weekly) it is all legal.

I don't understand this.  The person that wants the challenge, and not have an easy shot every week is in the WRONG?  Sorry that idea is messed up.

Again, that is NOT the person I am talking about. I'm talking about the person who is only bowling at the lower scoring alley, knowingly and with INTENT to use that lower average at a higher scoring house to cash in a handicap tournament. In other words, the person that is purposely bowling there in order to make gains at the big handicap tournament. That is, indeed, sandbagging.

Yes, there is a fine line. Yes, there is some grey area. Yes, it is very hard to properly regulate. No, there is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging yourself at a harder house. I NEVER said that. But to go bowl at that house just so you can make profit in a tournament... sandbagging. No different than good teams playing rec league softball and goofing around, and then going into rec league divisions in high level tournaments.

And if that is the only house available to bowl in (or only house close enough), then that is also not sandbagging. Again, I'm talking about the people doing it on purpose. Pretty sure that's what the OP said. Just addressing those people.

If anyone doesn't agree this is sandbagging, well, your head, oddly enough, is in the sand. This happens a ton at the Illinois state tournament. You have jackholes with PBA titles, multiple top 50 finishes at USBCs, etc their resumes speak for themselves. Yet, somehow, these scumbags (in the truest sense of the word: a used condom) get pins at the state tournament and have the audacity to cry when there's no brackets for them? Yeah, it's bagging.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: bradl on January 18, 2017, 06:05:11 PM
I have a guy in my league who clearly sandbags.  I am high average in the league and we pick teams.  I get stuck with him every year cause I get last pick.  No one wants him.  Been on my team 2 years now.   Its not a big money league but that's beside the point.  Sick of his crap.  I talked to the league President he said nothing he can do.  Wanted him thrown out of the league.  He said we can't until he does something wrong.  Well sandbagging is wrong.  Anything else I can do to get rid of him?  It is a sanctioned league.

So far, through 3 pages of this thread, you've stated that he "clearly" sandbags, complained about how you're sick of it, talked to various people, but yet you provide no examples as to how he has sandbagged, or what he does that makes you believe he is sandbagging.

As they say in the legal world, the burden of proof to show guilt is on you. Please offer up the evidence that supports and makes you truly believe he is sandbagging.

I understand that you want to vent, but as you're making the claim, back it up.

BL.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: mainzer on January 18, 2017, 08:37:56 PM
You can't automatically call this sandbagging. If someone is at that house and is trying their best, then it is not bagging. No rules a being broken. Unfortunately this is a flaw in the USBC. Until patterns are rated (weekly) it is all legal.

I don't understand this.  The person that wants the challenge, and not have an easy shot every week is in the WRONG?  Sorry that idea is messed up.

Again, that is NOT the person I am talking about. I'm talking about the person who is only bowling at the lower scoring alley, knowingly and with INTENT to use that lower average at a higher scoring house to cash in a handicap tournament. In other words, the person that is purposely bowling there in order to make gains at the big handicap tournament. That is, indeed, sandbagging.

Yes, there is a fine line. Yes, there is some grey area. Yes, it is very hard to properly regulate. No, there is absolutely nothing wrong with challenging yourself at a harder house. I NEVER said that. But to go bowl at that house just so you can make profit in a tournament... sandbagging. No different than good teams playing rec league softball and goofing around, and then going into rec league divisions in high level tournaments.

And if that is the only house available to bowl in (or only house close enough), then that is also not sandbagging. Again, I'm talking about the people doing it on purpose. Pretty sure that's what the OP said. Just addressing those people.

If anyone doesn't agree this is sandbagging, well, your head, oddly enough, is in the sand. This happens a ton at the Illinois state tournament. You have jackholes with PBA titles, multiple top 50 finishes at USBCs, etc their resumes speak for themselves. Yet, somehow, these scumbags (in the truest sense of the word: a used condom) get pins at the state tournament and have the audacity to cry when there's no brackets for them? Yeah, it's bagging.

North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: JazlarVonSteich on January 19, 2017, 01:37:29 PM
North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Flaw or not, it is still sandbagging. You are PURPOSELY bowling at a house (when there are OTHER options), knowing full well that you will score lower. Then you use that average to cash in a big handicap tournament. SANDBAGGING. Plain and simple.

Read the rest of my other post(s) for who is not included in the above. Not repeating myself again. The system is flawed, for sure, but people are taking advantage of it. That is the definition of sandbagging.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: milorafferty on January 19, 2017, 02:07:27 PM
North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Flaw or not, it is still sandbagging. You are PURPOSELY bowling at a house (when there are OTHER options), knowing full well that you will score lower. Then you use that average to cash in a big handicap tournament. SANDBAGGING. Plain and simple.

Read the rest of my other post(s) for who is not included in the above. Not repeating myself again. The system is flawed, for sure, but people are taking advantage of it. That is the definition of sandbagging.

If everyone magically decided to stop sandbagging and only bowled at the highest scoring house available to them, what do you think that would do to bowling?

People already complain about the scores being inflated, what you are saying would just make it that much worse.

And all the houses that put out a "legitimate" shot would be gone.

Personally, I don't see it as sandbagging. But that's because I have a similar situation. There is a bowling alley in my town where I have not bowled a league in years for the simple fact that I score very well in that house. I bowl in multiple other houses and even in a year round PBA league.

 I avoid the one house like the plague for leagues, even though it's the closest to where I live. However, I will bowl handicap tournaments there. Is that sandbagging? I guess it could be called that. But I know what level bowler I am, and the 230+ average I would put up in that house is not a reflection of my actual ability as a bowler, but just in that house.

Now, what we see in this area, is actual sandbagging in my book. Scumbags who will bowl in one sanctioned league and establish a low average and then only bowl in unsanctioned leagues otherwise, where they can bowl to their ability. THAT is sandbagging.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Aloarjr810 on January 19, 2017, 02:08:02 PM
Yes too 16 averages.  Low picks first and so on.  Like fantasy football.  First round bottom guy gets two picks a so on.  4 on a team.  Only way for me not to end up with him is for me to bag.

I assume there's no way for you to opt out of being team captain? because if your not capt. another team is sure to pick you for their team.

Quote
I have known this guy for 30 years.  Been doing it forever.  Never bowled on a team with him before.  Best part is he is like 65.

Why is that the best part? is he going to die soon or do you figure he'll quit because of his age.

Quote
We go to states last year and he sucked so all that bagging did no good.

You say "We" go to states, was he on your team? your doubles partner? why did you go with him?  They couldn't have forced you to take him to states.

Did someone figure all the sandbagged handicap would help the team out? and it didn't pan out.




Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: northface28 on January 19, 2017, 02:08:32 PM
North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Flaw or not, it is still sandbagging. You are PURPOSELY bowling at a house (when there are OTHER options), knowing full well that you will score lower. Then you use that average to cash in a big handicap tournament. SANDBAGGING. Plain and simple.

Read the rest of my other post(s) for who is not included in the above. Not repeating myself again. The system is flawed, for sure, but people are taking advantage of it. That is the definition of sandbagging.

Preach. There are worse tactics I won't divulge here.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: JazlarVonSteich on January 19, 2017, 02:16:03 PM
Now, what we see in this area, is actual sandbagging in my book. Scumbags who will bowl in one sanctioned league and establish a low average and then only bowl in unsanctioned leagues otherwise, where they can bowl to their ability. THAT is sandbagging.

This is pretty much what I'm talking about! What is so hard to understand. I'm not saying people can't bowl at tougher houses. Hell, the house I bowl at has always given me the most problems in the city I live in. The other big house closed, so no longer an option. But I've usually bowled at multiple houses. The last 2 years have just been at this one house. But you know what? I figured it out and am now having my best year ever.

But that is all beside the point. The point is, AGAIN, I'm specifically talking about those exact dirt bags who choose to bowl at a lower scoring house, knowing full well that they will reap the rewards in a handicap tournament down the road. Whether they bowl in other unsanctioned leagues does not matter. The intent is the same. I believe the OP was addressing this specific issue. People who do it on purpose to cash in later.

Some people clearly understand what I'm saying. Apparently, you and a few others do not. I'm done repeating it.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: northface28 on January 19, 2017, 02:18:12 PM
North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Flaw or not, it is still sandbagging. You are PURPOSELY bowling at a house (when there are OTHER options), knowing full well that you will score lower. Then you use that average to cash in a big handicap tournament. SANDBAGGING. Plain and simple.

Read the rest of my other post(s) for who is not included in the above. Not repeating myself again. The system is flawed, for sure, but people are taking advantage of it. That is the definition of sandbagging.

If everyone magically decided to stop sandbagging and only bowled at the highest scoring house available to them, what do you think that would do to bowling?

People already complain about the scores being inflated, what you are saying would just make it that much worse.

And all the houses that put out a "legitimate" shot would be gone.

Personally, I don't see it as sandbagging. But that's because I have a similar situation. There is a bowling alley in my town where I have not bowled a league in years for the simple fact that I score very well in that house. I bowl in multiple other houses and even in a year round PBA league.

 I avoid the one house like the plague for leagues, even though it's the closest to where I live. However, I will bowl handicap tournaments there. Is that sandbagging? I guess it could be called that. But I know what level bowler I am, and the 230+ average I would put up in that house is not a reflection of my actual ability as a bowler, but just in that house.

Now, what we see in this area, is actual sandbagging in my book. Scumbags who will bowl in one sanctioned league and establish a low average and then only bowl in unsanctioned leagues otherwise, where they can bowl to their ability. THAT is sandbagging.

So let me get this straight. You go to the known lower scoring house (out of your way) to establish a lower average intentionally? Then, go to the higher scoring house which you conveniently avoid for league, but a handicap tournament which I assume has cash prizes you can miraculously make it to? The honorable thing to do would be to avoid said higher scoring center 100% of the time, not this selective shit.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: milorafferty on January 19, 2017, 02:31:08 PM
North that's apples and Oranges. What you describe is sandbagging no question. What he is describing is not sandbagging it is a flaw in the system.

Flaw or not, it is still sandbagging. You are PURPOSELY bowling at a house (when there are OTHER options), knowing full well that you will score lower. Then you use that average to cash in a big handicap tournament. SANDBAGGING. Plain and simple.

Read the rest of my other post(s) for who is not included in the above. Not repeating myself again. The system is flawed, for sure, but people are taking advantage of it. That is the definition of sandbagging.

If everyone magically decided to stop sandbagging and only bowled at the highest scoring house available to them, what do you think that would do to bowling?

People already complain about the scores being inflated, what you are saying would just make it that much worse.

And all the houses that put out a "legitimate" shot would be gone.

Personally, I don't see it as sandbagging. But that's because I have a similar situation. There is a bowling alley in my town where I have not bowled a league in years for the simple fact that I score very well in that house. I bowl in multiple other houses and even in a year round PBA league.

 I avoid the one house like the plague for leagues, even though it's the closest to where I live. However, I will bowl handicap tournaments there. Is that sandbagging? I guess it could be called that. But I know what level bowler I am, and the 230+ average I would put up in that house is not a reflection of my actual ability as a bowler, but just in that house.

Now, what we see in this area, is actual sandbagging in my book. Scumbags who will bowl in one sanctioned league and establish a low average and then only bowl in unsanctioned leagues otherwise, where they can bowl to their ability. THAT is sandbagging.

So let me get this straight. You go to the known lower scoring house (out of your way) to establish a lower average intentionally? Then, go to the higher scoring house which you conveniently avoid for league, but a handicap tournament which I assume has cash prizes you can miraculously make it to? The honorable thing to do would be to avoid said higher scoring center 100% of the time, not this selective shit.

No, I don't "go to a known lower scoring house". I just don't bowl league in a specific house, that for whatever reason, matches up well for me personally.

I bowl multiple leagues in multiple houses. I just don't bowl a league in this one house. But it is in our association and the association tournament has one of it's event there every year, so I do bowl there at that time. There are also various tournaments that I will bowl occasionally at this house. Do I make a point of bowling every handicap tournament that happens at that house? No, I do not. Is it a big advantage for me to bowl elsewhere than this house? Not really, since I average 220+ in other places I don't get handicap usually anyway. I also do not enter handicap brackets either.

I just don't feel bowling in that particular house makes me a better bowler. Think of it what you will.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: spmcgivern on January 19, 2017, 02:32:11 PM
The decision of choosing a center(s) to bowl league has many factors.  (Proximity, available league days/times, staff, conditions, safety and food/drink to name a few).  If the number one reason to choose a difficult house is the resulting average and the benefit you gain from that lower average, then that could be construed as sandbagging.  But if the lower average isn't in the upper part of your list, then probably not.

I have a center nearer to me that I can average higher at.  But I choose the center I bowl at because I have been in the league for several years and have dwindled down to one league.  Also, it is where my wife's dad works and I used to manage the house.  So to me, the average isn't the reason even though I know I could average 230+ at the other center.  They are both nice centers, the higher scoring house is cheaper and has more competitive leagues.  Just choose to bowl elsewhere for other reasons.

In fact, bowling at the lower averaging house cost me a state all-events title.  Didn't realize I was 2 pins under the average for the scratch division and went out and had the highest all-events score for the tournament.  But I was in the lower division (with handicap) and lost out by a few pins.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: MI 2 AZ on January 19, 2017, 02:46:07 PM
Had a situation last year in league where a 210 average bowler started out the season bowling two-handed and one-handed.  Said he was experimenting with two-handed.  If the match was close, he would switch to one-handed.   In the first half, out of 16 weeks, he had 7 series under 550, with a low of 503 and a high series of 653.  In the second half, he quit the two-handed and just bowled his normal one-handed style with a low series of 581 and a high of 748.  His team made a run for the second half title but fell short. 

There was a league meeting where one captain bought forward a charge of sandbagging but they ruled that it was not. 
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: Ken De Beasto on January 19, 2017, 02:57:16 PM
Had a situation last year in league where a 210 average bowler started out the season bowling two-handed and one-handed.  Said he was experimenting with two-handed.  If the match was close, he would switch to one-handed.   In the first half, out of 16 weeks, he had 7 series under 550, with a low of 503 and a high series of 653.  In the second half, he quit the two-handed and just bowled his normal one-handed style with a low series of 581 and a high of 748.  His team made a run for the second half title but fell short. 

There was a league meeting where one captain bought forward a charge of sandbagging but they ruled that it was not.

I was in a similar but not quite situation. A few years ago I switched from two fingers to three finger bowling mid season and I skyrocketed from a 160 bowler to 200ish. Anyways I was called a bagger because I got better. Now to some and even still people think of me as a bagger.
Title: Re: Sandbagging
Post by: trash heap on January 19, 2017, 03:28:57 PM
I just don't understand.

Why is the bowling center with the highest scoring environment automatically becomes the standard for averages in the area?

I sure think of this the other way. By wanting it easy every week (feeling warm and cozy in your inflated scores) you should pay a penalty at tournament time.

You have a choice too.