BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: the_scarlet_pumpernickel on April 19, 2017, 10:34:57 AM
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Did anyone else get one of these surveys about lane conditions, bowling equipment? you should check your e-mail to see if you got one. It asked a lot of questions about whether bowling was challenging enough, whether lane conditions are too easy. What is everyone's take on this survey? was it good enough? any questions you would have asked, not asked? did you even get it? do you think they will really use it's results to a positive end?
I think they are just confirming on paper what everyone already thinks. There's no way they don't know what bowlers have been saying about league vs. pro lane conditions, resin balls/dynamic cores being too strong, 2 handed good or bad etc... I would like to have seen more detailed questions about ball durability, which is arguably not as good anymore.
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I rcvd the survey yesterday and I was honestly surprised that they are actually conducting such a survey. I bowl in a house where their house shot is considerably more difficult than others in the area where our league has bowlers in that average 20 less pins than other houses the also bowl in the same county. I often hear how the THS is too easy but I cant say I have experienced that but its all relative to what you are comparing whether its eras, houses, tournament vs THS, etc. The only thing I would like to see is consistent guidelines for dressing lanes and actual inspections to certify lanes and machines are in compliance.
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I have not seen, nor have I received the survey. All the houses in my area are basic, light or medium oil THS. We only have one house in the area that puts down a greater amount of oil than the rest. It is still a medium shot to me, but for those individuals with little hand, it can be a challenge. All of the THS's, to me are very easy. I honed my bowling chops on a reverse block condition, that for the longest time, was the only challenge in town!! At one time, we had that one house that specifically laid out this shot, and I loved the challenge of trying to score on it!
I hope I get to see this survey, so I can offer my point of view!
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I responded with answers that likely don't fit the narrative. Ball durability is fine because either you get a lot of hook or a ball that will last 100 years. Balls that hook more take more maintenance, it's just an unfortunate fact of life. Biggest issues are ball rules are outdated (specifically when it comes to static weights), and lane certification is not enforced. All someone has to do is get online and check a box and that's it, many centers or local associations do not have lane certification done, and those that do have it done rarely spend the money to make it legal. Topography could quite possibly be the single most influential thing on ball reaction, maybe even moreso than lane conditions.
It's obvious by the questions asked what their agenda is. They want to make all sanctioned bowling competitive, and if you don't enjoy bowling the way they want you to, they have no use for you. They believe everyone should want tougher conditions and less reactive equipment and tighter restrictions on ball reaction because their think tank is comprised only of like minded people who all went to college and got taught bowling math and elitism.
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Could somebody post the survey questions or a link?
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The 3 unit of oil rule is the biggest joke.Should be triple that with todays balls.That rule is from the urethane days.But in my area there is no enforcement of lane conditions.They do what they want to.Same old excuse without scores the doors will close.They cant even enforce turning foul lights on here.Basically its dying a slow death in my city.Filthy bowling alleys and everybody is just about over it.
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one observation i will make is that the USBC seems to be under the impression (at least from the tone of their questions) that league bowlers are somehow unaware or don't understand the difference between oil patterns. I feel that this is incorrect, as bowlers of all ages in my house seem to understand that if they bowled on a sport or challenge pattern that they would score much lower, and need to be much more accurate from shot to shot. I haven't really met another serious bowler that didn't understand the difference between a house and a sport shot. ???
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The answer to me is simple. If a center wants to put out an easy house shot and run a league on those conditions than the averages don't count for any USBC sanctioned tournament or any awards. Toughen up the shot and the scores will be USBC "official" averages. The tougher shot doesn't have to be a sport shot, just a more challenging condition that doesn't reward miss right and strike.
This way you can have your party leagues, but if you want to bowl state or Nationals you'll have to bowl on tougher conditions. It can be up to each league to decide at their meetings what kind of league they want to be. With todays machines, changing from one pattern to the other isn't as hard as it was 12 years ago.
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The answer to me is simple. If a center wants to put out an easy house shot and run a league on those conditions than the averages don't count for any USBC sanctioned tournament or any awards. Toughen up the shot and the scores will be USBC "official" averages. The tougher shot doesn't have to be a sport shot, just a more challenging condition that doesn't reward miss right and strike.
This way you can have your party leagues, but if you want to bowl state or Nationals you'll have to bowl on tougher conditions. It can be up to each league to decide at their meetings what kind of league they want to be. With todays machines, changing from one pattern to the other isn't as hard as it was 12 years ago.
They had a golden opportunity that they let slip through the cracks with the red, white, and blue program. If your center is all about high scores and you use a house condition, fine, you are red, and get an atta boy for your scores, but no real recognition. If you step up and use a white pattern, or something approved by Kegel or Brunswick of similar ratios, you still get to get your one ring a year, and some recognition for your bowling. Make the ration a maximum of say 5:1 or 6:1. It will be blended, but not ridiculously over walled like many conditions that you are rewarded for missing by an arrow. Step up to a "blue" pattern, and you can still earn that nice crystal pin.
This way, you are at least giving the choice to the centers and bowlers as to if they want to challenge themselves, and or EARN awards.
Just seems like they really, really missed an opportunity.
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I would agree with USBC actually. The general league bowler indeed does not understand the difference between oil patterns. 90% of league bowlers can't read a lane graph (in my estimation), and of those, I'm willing to bet that 50% think they can but really can't. That's the true point there, "I haven't met a serious bowler who doesn't know the difference." 85% of average league bowlers aren't serious, they just bowl for fun. USBC is trying to force everyone to take bowling seriously, and this will hurt them badly.
one observation i will make is that the USBC seems to be under the impression (at least from the tone of their questions) that league bowlers are somehow unaware or don't understand the difference between oil patterns. I feel that this is incorrect, as bowlers of all ages in my house seem to understand that if they bowled on a sport or challenge pattern that they would score much lower, and need to be much more accurate from shot to shot. I haven't really met another serious bowler that didn't understand the difference between a house and a sport shot. ???
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Nice sentiment, unfortunately impossible to enforce however . .
The answer to me is simple. If a center wants to put out an easy house shot and run a league on those conditions than the averages don't count for any USBC sanctioned tournament or any awards. Toughen up the shot and the scores will be USBC "official" averages. The tougher shot doesn't have to be a sport shot, just a more challenging condition that doesn't reward miss right and strike.
This way you can have your party leagues, but if you want to bowl state or Nationals you'll have to bowl on tougher conditions. It can be up to each league to decide at their meetings what kind of league they want to be. With todays machines, changing from one pattern to the other isn't as hard as it was 12 years ago.
They had a golden opportunity that they let slip through the cracks with the red, white, and blue program. If your center is all about high scores and you use a house condition, fine, you are red, and get an atta boy for your scores, but no real recognition. If you step up and use a white pattern, or something approved by Kegel or Brunswick of similar ratios, you still get to get your one ring a year, and some recognition for your bowling. Make the ration a maximum of say 5:1 or 6:1. It will be blended, but not ridiculously over walled like many conditions that you are rewarded for missing by an arrow. Step up to a "blue" pattern, and you can still earn that nice crystal pin.
This way, you are at least giving the choice to the centers and bowlers as to if they want to challenge themselves, and or EARN awards.
Just seems like they really, really missed an opportunity.
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Enforcement could be an issue, but if a league says we are a rec league there is nothing to enforce. If a league says we are a "though pattern" league then local associations should randomly check the league/center for compliance. We pay the local association too and at least here they don't do much.
Center owners need to be held responsible. They created the problem by going soft patterns thus taking us down this rabbit hole. They are members of the BPAA and that could/should be an enforcement arm.
If they (USBC) are trying to change things based on this survey than I applaud them.
just my 2 cents
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You would have to run tapes of the lanes proving the pattern, and be subject to spot checks and verification. If you are found out of compliance, all honor scores that were bowled for the season are subsequently deemed illegitimate. Basically, you make a punishment for failure to comply a "worth while" reason to stay in compliance. If all of sudden, you have league bowlers loosing their "award-able scores" because the bowling center wants to cheat, well then you will have some very angry bowlers and that would affect the proprietors bottom line. If you affect money, you will see centers staying in compliance.
I don't agree that it would be "impossible" to enforce.
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Center owners are trying to keep butts in the seats. A decade ago our city had 6 bowling centers. Now we have two. Guess which two centers in town had the highest scores? I'm a competitive bowler and I enjoy tough conditions, but I absolutely do not agree that forcing everyone to enjoy bowling one way is how anyone is going to fix things. I don't see how making bowling less fun is the way to increase participation . .
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If it was actually that easy, it would already be happening, would it not?
You would have to run tapes of the lanes proving the pattern, and be subject to spot checks and verification. If you are found out of compliance, all honor scores that were bowled for the season are subsequently deemed illegitimate. Basically, you make a punishment for failure to comply a "worth while" reason to stay in compliance. If all of sudden, you have league bowlers loosing their "award-able scores" because the bowling center wants to cheat, well then you will have some very angry bowlers and that would affect the proprietors bottom line. If you affect money, you will see centers staying in compliance.
I don't agree that it would be "impossible" to enforce.
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Center owners are trying to keep butts in the seats. A decade ago our city had 6 bowling centers. Now we have two. Guess which two centers in town had the highest scores? I'm a competitive bowler and I enjoy tough conditions, but I absolutely do not agree that forcing everyone to enjoy bowling one way is how anyone is going to fix things. I don't see how making bowling less fun is the way to increase participation . .
You don't force "everyone" to bowl on hard conditions. You only award those that do, and allow those that want to bowl recreation, do just that, throw their un-realistic numbers without recognition.
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If it was actually that easy, it would already be happening, would it not?
You would have to run tapes of the lanes proving the pattern, and be subject to spot checks and verification. If you are found out of compliance, all honor scores that were bowled for the season are subsequently deemed illegitimate. Basically, you make a punishment for failure to comply a "worth while" reason to stay in compliance. If all of sudden, you have league bowlers loosing their "award-able scores" because the bowling center wants to cheat, well then you will have some very angry bowlers and that would affect the proprietors bottom line. If you affect money, you will see centers staying in compliance.
I don't agree that it would be "impossible" to enforce.
It could be, if the USBC would actually take the time to fix some of the real issues that are affecting bowling, instead of these ridiculous issues like hiding the patterns, and not allowing practice on lanes before bowling.
Fix what the real problems are.
Sorry people, but when 12 year old kids are "out scoring" adults, you can't market that to corporate America as a "good" thing, and show that bowling has integrity, and then sell the product. When you watch someone bowl, you should be able to tell if they are a professional, or an amateur, and their score should reflect that. Today, it's the other way around, your score says if you are good or not, even though people that can score, can't hit the same spot twice in three games.
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The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.
Scores keep getting higher and higher, yet we keep loosing bowlers. We encourage people to throw it "anyway" they want, yet we keep loosing bowlers.
Seems insane to me. Just my .02
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I have to disagree. League bowling is much different from tournament bowling. The idea that all league bowling has to have "integrity" and has to be on shots that "keep you honest" and form and mechanics should indicate skill simply isn't true. Bowling is suffering because no one is having fun anymore. It's become a collection of stiffs, egos, elitists who try to be as condescending and judgmental as possible. I wholeheartedly disagree that league conditions should be made harder. The USBC member average is something like 175, but for some reason everyone, themselves included, think it should only be about the scratch bowler, and that's the only demographic they care about. If conditions get harder, you make 10% of the membership base happy and piss the other 90% off. I can't imagine telling leagues full of 170-200 average bowlers that bowl for fun once a week that the conditions are now being made harder and are going to be enforced. If there's a sure way to kill off league bowling and drive USBC into bankruptcy, that's it.
If it was actually that easy, it would already be happening, would it not?
You would have to run tapes of the lanes proving the pattern, and be subject to spot checks and verification. If you are found out of compliance, all honor scores that were bowled for the season are subsequently deemed illegitimate. Basically, you make a punishment for failure to comply a "worth while" reason to stay in compliance. If all of sudden, you have league bowlers loosing their "award-able scores" because the bowling center wants to cheat, well then you will have some very angry bowlers and that would affect the proprietors bottom line. If you affect money, you will see centers staying in compliance.
I don't agree that it would be "impossible" to enforce.
It could be, if the USBC would actually take the time to fix some of the real issues that are affecting bowling, instead of these ridiculous issues like hiding the patterns, and not allowing practice on lanes before bowling.
Fix what the real problems are.
Sorry people, but when 12 year old kids are "out scoring" adults, you can't market that to corporate America as a "good" thing, and show that bowling has integrity, and then sell the product. When you watch someone bowl, you should be able to tell if they are a professional, or an amateur, and their score should reflect that. Today, it's the other way around, your score says if you are good or not, even though people that can score, can't hit the same spot twice in three games.
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Enforcement could be an issue, but if a league says we are a rec league there is nothing to enforce. If a league says we are a "though pattern" league then local associations should randomly check the league/center for compliance. We pay the local association too and at least here they don't do much.
Center owners need to be held responsible. They created the problem by going soft patterns thus taking us down this rabbit hole. They are members of the BPAA and that could/should be an enforcement arm.
If they (USBC) are trying to change things based on this survey than I applaud them.
just my 2 cents
How is this any different than what was done when sport shot leagues first came about? If given the option, bowlers will not consistently bowl on more difficult shots.
As far as center owners/managers causing this issue, I can't see that. ABC set the standard years ago and the center owners/managers are still abiding by those rules.
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Just because something is happening at the same time something else is doesn't mean it's a cause or contribution. This is the scratch bowler mindset because it's all that matters to them. Bowling isn't declining because we're losing scratch bowlers, we're losing casual bowlers. Scratch bowlers are the ones sticking around complaining about all this. The die hards will always be around no matter what. Membership hasn't dropped this far because we lost all the scratch bowlers. Bowling is expensive and time consuming, and with so many other places for time and money to go, bowling has become not worth it for those who weren't that into it in the first place.
I'll never understand the idea that making bowler harder and more competitive and more serious is the solution to bringing in new casual bowlers or bringing back those who have quit.
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results.
Scores keep getting higher and higher, yet we keep loosing bowlers. We encourage people to throw it "anyway" they want, yet we keep loosing bowlers.
Seems insane to me. Just my .02
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Yes and yes. The most valid point is what people select when given the choice. Scratch leagues are disappearing, and sport/PBA leagues usually only exist during the summer, so why does ANYONE think that forcing people into something they have not chosen or have voted against time and time again is the answer? "Well since you aren't choosing to do this like you're supposed to, we're just going to force it on you now." Competitive bowling and league bowling are two different things, and if you try to make them the same, you'll drive off 90% of your remaining membership.
Enforcement could be an issue, but if a league says we are a rec league there is nothing to enforce. If a league says we are a "though pattern" league then local associations should randomly check the league/center for compliance. We pay the local association too and at least here they don't do much.
Center owners need to be held responsible. They created the problem by going soft patterns thus taking us down this rabbit hole. They are members of the BPAA and that could/should be an enforcement arm.
If they (USBC) are trying to change things based on this survey than I applaud them.
just my 2 cents
How is this any different than what was done when sport shot leagues first came about? If given the option, bowlers will not consistently bowl on more difficult shots.
As far as center owners/managers causing this issue, I can't see that. ABC set the standard years ago and the center owners/managers are still abiding by those rules.
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Enforcement could be an issue, but if a league says we are a rec league there is nothing to enforce. If a league says we are a "though pattern" league then local associations should randomly check the league/center for compliance. We pay the local association too and at least here they don't do much.
Center owners need to be held responsible. They created the problem by going soft patterns thus taking us down this rabbit hole. They are members of the BPAA and that could/should be an enforcement arm.
If they (USBC) are trying to change things based on this survey than I applaud them.
just my 2 cents
How is this any different than what was done when sport shot leagues first came about? If given the option, bowlers will not consistently bowl on more difficult shots.
As far as center owners/managers causing this issue, I can't see that. ABC set the standard years ago and the center owners/managers are still abiding by those rules.
It's not any different, that's why it should be able to be done
ABC/USBC change the requirement from what I remember because the owners wanted more bowlers and lax standards
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Why again is this so important for league bowling? Tournament bowling, sure, totally on board for that, but why does regular old league bowling need to be run like the US Open? You do realize the competitive bowling community is destroying what they're trying to save, correct?
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League participation isn't in the crapper because of lane conditions or anything the USBC has done or hasn't done or will try to do. Participation is down because 90% of bowling centers are terribly run business'. They are still run by people that think league bowlers are just going to sign up because you put a schedule on the counter, and most haven't been cleaned since 1989.
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I would like to see tougher conditions. However, I'm in the minority which realistically is 5% of the bowlers. Although I don't care for easy house shots, this is what bowling has become over the years. I have accepted easy conditions and whenever there is a chance to bowl on a sport shot I do. As for forcing people to bowl on tougher shots will be the end of sanctioning.
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Absolutely the best point in this whole thread. That's exactly the reason.
League participation isn't in the crapper because of lane conditions or anything the USBC has done or hasn't done or will try to do. Participation is down because 90% of bowling centers are terribly run business'. They are still run by people that think league bowlers are just going to sign up because you put a schedule on the counter, and most haven't been cleaned since 1989.
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Center owners are trying to keep butts in the seats. A decade ago our city had 6 bowling centers. Now we have two. Guess which two centers in town had the highest scores? I'm a competitive bowler and I enjoy tough conditions, but I absolutely do not agree that forcing everyone to enjoy bowling one way is how anyone is going to fix things. I don't see how making bowling less fun is the way to increase participation . .
You don't force "everyone" to bowl on hard conditions. You only award those that do, and allow those that want to bowl recreation, do just that, throw their un-realistic numbers without recognition.
This elitist, dismissive attitude is the crux of the problem. Bowlers are great at making other bowlers feel "less than". When In the grand scheme of things, bowling is incredibly dorky.
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When we realize that the GAME of bowling is laughable at best and the SPORT of bowling is something that will probably never catch on with our generation since we're all a bunch of entitled aholes and need to have our frail egos tended to by phony inflated numbers that make us feel better about who we are, the better.
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When we realize that the GAME of bowling is laughable at best and the SPORT of bowling is something that will probably never catch on with our generation since we're all a bunch of entitled aholes and need to have our frail egos tended to by phony inflated numbers that make us feel better about who we are, the better.
Sounds like SOMEONE needs a safe space... :-)
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I did the survey and filled it out like a scratch bowler would.
But this is a topic thats been discussed so much.
My thoughts:
1) Bowling industry is in decline because of factors that have nothing to do with bowling. Pay people more, give them some less hours to work, and they'll be heading out bowling more, and to movies more and other things...
2) People vote with their money. Sport bowling leagues are NOT popular. I only bowl in sport shot league in summer and then rest of year, is the break and do tournaments when can. I wish they were more popular, I love bowling in my summer league, but just stating fact.
3) Scratch bowlers who want to bowl on hard conditions are frequenting these message boards, not the typical 170 - 200 bowler.
4) Two handed bowling. Being realistic, if you're a 9 year old kid and try throwing one handed, and then see some 10 year old next to you blowing away the wrack 2 handed, what are you going to do? Two handed bowling significantly reduces learning curve and physical skills needed to have a pretty hook. I'm sure it makes things more exciting for youth bowlers, therefore it's good for industry.
That pretty two handed hook that a newbie can learn in a month, will be going all over the place on a sport shot, but whatever, that's besides the point.
5) It would have been simple for the USBC and bowling proprietors to prevent the problem of out of controlling scoring, then to reverse it. 200 avg. bowlers will not be happy to learn that they are really at 170. These no solution to this from pin weight, changing lane oils, changing ball specs... that doesn't lead to lower scores. How lower scores will help the bowling industry isn't a mystery to me.
The only solution is clearer differentiation between sport bowling, and recreation bowling, and to stop treating recreation bowling, as if it's sport bowling.
It shouldn't matter to the competitive scratch bowling if people have fun with an inflated recreation average. I think what does matter is when the 220 avg bowling can't do real bowling b/c he's crowded out by all the recreation stuff.
If 90% of bowling was recreation and 10% sport that would be ok. But when it's more than 99% rec. and you have to search hard for any sport then you have a problem.
If this is what bowlers want, then vote with your dollars.
I spend money on my sport shot league, lots of practice, on bowling lessons, and sport shot tournaments. I do NOT pay $30 a week to bowl 3 games on a house shot, for 36 weeks, nor will I pay $100+ to bowling in a "modified house shot" tournament.
Not that I'm trying to influence bowling industry, this is simply what I'm interested in paying.
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I have to disagree. League bowling is much different from tournament bowling. The idea that all league bowling has to have "integrity" and has to be on shots that "keep you honest" and form and mechanics should indicate skill simply isn't true. Bowling is suffering because no one is having fun anymore. It's become a collection of stiffs, egos, elitists who try to be as condescending and judgmental as possible. I wholeheartedly disagree that league conditions should be made harder. The USBC member average is something like 175, but for some reason everyone, themselves included, think it should only be about the scratch bowler, and that's the only demographic they care about. If conditions get harder, you make 10% of the membership base happy and piss the other 90% off. I can't imagine telling leagues full of 170-200 average bowlers that bowl for fun once a week that the conditions are now being made harder and are going to be enforced. If there's a sure way to kill off league bowling and drive USBC into bankruptcy, that's it.
First point:
I have yet to say that ALL bowling needs to be hard. I have said a couple of times, bowling needs to have tiers, and what ever tier you sign up for, will garner acknowledgment based on your performance. Red, have at it, score as high as you want, but you don't get rewarded for it. You wanting to "award" everyone no matter how easy or difficult the pattern is, is the reason people never really try to get any better, and the VERY reason why you have so called "elitist" attitudes, because people who really don't know what they are talking about score high, so they think they are that good. This is a huge factor of why there is this entitlement issue. I want it, so there for I should get it handed to me.
Second point:
5:1 or 6:1 ratio patterns are not "hard". They are blended patterns, that are VERY high scoring, for people who have reasonable ability.
Third point:
With out league bowling, you don't have tournament bowling, so YES they are very much connected. No one has ever NOT bowled league, and threw their very first ball ever in a tournament. League bowling breeds tournament bowlers, and without a tired system for people to truly understand at what level of ability they really are, they have no idea of how to get better and know what real shot making is.
4th point:
You mentioned in another post that 3 centers out of 5 closed and those centers had the highest scores stayed open. I would bet that the two centers that are left are probably better run, have nicer staff, and all around more welcoming places to spend a bowlers hard earned money. People will not go spend their money in a dump with dirty smelly bathrooms, over priced food, counter staff that is rude, just to "score higher".
You also talk about having "fun". I agree league bowling needs to have an element of "fun". you know what isn't "fun"? Loosing a game to someone who threw the ball all over the lane, didn't hit the same spot twice, but yet racked up a higher score than you, even though you repeated much better, and rung a few corner pins on quality shots. Your biggest mistake was not missing by enough boards to still strike.
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Sorry if I am getting a little crochety in my old age but I have been listening to and having these arguments for 40 years. To the guy who is tired if getting beat by a guy throwing it all over the lane. If it us so easy just throw it like the guy who us beating you.
What people really don't like on house shots is that the other guy has a release that matches up better. From a competitive point if view the game is the best shape ever thanks to the technology of lane conditioning. Versatility is the only true test for upper echelon bowlers, and the industry is more capable if supplying that versatility than ever before.
As for league nothing wrong with the THS. It provides plenty of challenge for 90% of bowlers. Most of the guys who think the THS is too easy, really mean it is too easy for the other guy.
Turning too the decline in league participation, it has never been about people quitting, but about not enough young people starting to replace us old guys. The reasons for this are many, but go way beyond scoring levels.
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>>I don't see how making bowling less fun is the way to increase participation . .
So you only have "fun" if you are bowling a high game score? You don't bowl for the challenge? You don't bowl in tough tournaments like your city's Masters?
If bowling was still considered a challenging sport, it would get more press, more sponsorship dollars, have a real PBA TOUR and be in the Olympics.
However, when Joe Bowler can out average Pete Pro on paper, bowling doesn't stand a chance.
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:o
Sorry if I am getting a little crochety in my old age but I have been listening to and having these arguments for 40 years. To the guy who is tired if getting beat by a guy throwing it all over the lane. If it us so easy just throw it like the guy who us beating you.
What people really don't like on house shots is that the other guy has a release that matches up better. From a competitive point if view the game is the best shape ever thanks to the technology of lane conditioning. Versatility is the only true test for upper echelon bowlers, and the industry is more capable if supplying that versatility than ever before.
As for league nothing wrong with the THS. It provides plenty of challenge for 90% of bowlers. Most of the guys who think the THS is too easy, really mean it is too easy for the other guy.
Turning too the decline in league participation, it has never been about people quitting, but about not enough young people starting to replace us old guys. The reasons for this are many, but go way beyond scoring levels.
Last time I checked, Pete Weber, Walter Ray Williams Jr, Norm Duke, David Ozio, etc.... has never shot a 900 series. I guess they should throw it like league bowlers who have. :o
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Locals were out averaging tour guys 40 years ago.
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>>I don't see how making bowling less fun is the way to increase participation . .
So you only have "fun" if you are bowling a high game score? You don't bowl for the challenge? You don't bowl in tough tournaments like your city's Masters?
If bowling was still considered a challenging sport, it would get more press, more sponsorship dollars, have a real PBA TOUR and be in the Olympics.
However, when Joe Bowler can out average Pete Pro on paper, bowling doesn't stand a chance.
They are only having fun if they are shooting high scores because they "love" bowling so much and just want to have fun, but it's me that has the problem, because I want some integrity by adding tiers, LOL!!
Ability should dictate score, not score dictate ability. EVERY single other sport except maybe auto racing, this is true, but bowling, it is not.
At least one person understands what I'm trying to say.
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Locals were out averaging tour guys 40 years ago.
...That doesn't make it "right". Again, keep doing the same thing over and over again.....
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High individual games and series have never been a measure of talent in thus game. Back in the rubber ball era a local St Louis amateur named Elvin Mesger had more 300s than Carter Weber Bluth or any pro. In our own little association our city record at the time of 837 was set in 1980 by a guy who didn't even bowl scratch leagues. It has always been that way.
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A local amatuer shot 59 in a tournament last year. Top high school players routinely put up 65 in golf tournaments. Never yet heard a PGA pro complain about such scores being an assault in the integrity if the game. That kind of stuff seems to be reserved for bowlers who blame the lanes when they get beat
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High individual games and series have never been a measure of talent in thus game. Back in the rubber ball era a local St Louis amateur named Elvin Mesger had more 300s than Carter Weber Bluth or any pro. In our own little association our city record at the time of 837 was set in 1980 by a guy who didn't even bowl scratch leagues. It has always been that way.
... Still doesn't make it right.
Women used to not be allowed to vote, and we used to have segregation because of skin color. Glad someone saw the error of societies ways when it came to those issues.
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Here is how I feel about scoring. Quite a few guys can out score me on a house shot. I can outscore a lot of them on some sport patterns. Neither fact proves anything. I am probably one of the more versatile bowlers in our area. However on any pattern, including a house shit there is often somebody who can beat me. Game has always been that way and I know if no way to change it
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A local amatuer shot 59 in a tournament last year. Top high school players routinely put up 65 in golf tournaments. Never yet heard a PGA pro complain about such scores being an assault in the integrity if the game. That kind of stuff seems to be reserved for bowlers who blame the lanes when they get beat
Aren't golf courses rated by how easy or hard they are?????????
Were those score shot by those amateurs at Augusta????????
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Here is how I feel about scoring. Quite a few guys can out score me on a house shot. I can outscore a lot of them on some sport patterns. Neither fact proves anything. I am probably one of the more versatile bowlers in our area. However on any pattern, including a house shit there is often somebody who can beat me. Game has always been that way and I know if no way to change it
Easy, tiered and rated bowling centers.
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Here is how I feel about scoring. Quite a few guys can out score me on a house shot. I can outscore a lot of them on some sport patterns. Neither fact proves anything. I am probably one of the more versatile bowlers in our area. However on any pattern, including a house shit there is often somebody who can beat me. Game has always been that way and I know if no way to change it
Easy, tiered and rated bowling centers.
That doesn't affect any part of his statement. It's like you had a response ready to go before he even said anything.
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Here is how I feel about scoring. Quite a few guys can out score me on a house shot. I can outscore a lot of them on some sport patterns. Neither fact proves anything. I am probably one of the more versatile bowlers in our area. However on any pattern, including a house shit there is often somebody who can beat me. Game has always been that way and I know if no way to change it
Easy, tiered and rated bowling centers.
That doesn't affect any part of his statement. It's like you had a response ready to go before he even said anything.
I actually read the entire post, not part of it. It was a response to his last line.
The main reason why sport bowling didn't work, is because the USBC went too far and too extreme with the guide lines of what sport bowling should be. So much so, that people think patterns like "white" pattern are sport patterns, and they simple aren't. They are mildly blended patterns that come in at about a 6:1 ratio and, usually a higher scoring pattern for players with reasonable shot making ability. It takes away the pulled shot, go wash-out, miss outside of target, go face ridiculousness of many of today's over walled house conditions. What it does offer, is a slight bit of miss room from shots that are mildly errant. What happened with the original Sport shots, was that it scared many bowlers off from ever attempting to bowl on anything but a "house pattern" because it was too extreme.
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A Golf Slope rating for bowling, that's been brought up and discussed many times before in regards to bowling over the years.
But has never gone anywhere, A lot felt that the ratings would wind up being based mostly on the Inspector/Raters opinion and would be too subjective and not consistent around the country.
With the advent of Kegel's LaneMap technology part of that could be addressed, But to implement this idea would require money and let's face it bowler's won't pay for it.
As for a Tier system that would most likely turn into a mess that everyone would complain about.
It would be like what happened to scratch and handicap leagues. The money dried up in the scratch leagues prizfunds, so they all ran over to handicap leagues. Then all the complaining about handicap, conditions, sandbaggers etc. started.
One tier would wind up being where all the money was (most likely the lowest tier the one where all the ordinary lower ave, bowlers are, the ones that feed the prizefunds) and everyone would be trying to be in or stay in it.
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Very difficult to apply golf type course ratings or slopes to bowling. Part if the reason is obvious because lane patterns can be changed at the touch of a button and that is the only criteria that can be used.
Also I would not call sport bowling a failure. The fact that everyone at any level can bowl for money obscures the fact that top tier bowlers have largely bought in to playing on flatter patterns. I
This was not the case many years ago when the old ABC was promulgating unrealistic lane conditioning restrictions considering the equipment available at the time.
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Actual sport leagues were a disaster from the start because the USBC required tapes to be pulled and submitted and very few centers have the equipment to do it themselves.
And when it started a lot of centers were still using wick lane machines. Any little misadjustment of the lane machine and the tapes wouldn't pass. So you either bowled and the night was not compliant or you sat while they stripped, re-oiled and pulled tapes again.
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Tommy, your opinion is the same one I had 5 years ago. I was the one yelling and screaming and throwing fits here, itsallaboutme and northface will remember, I had more than one argument with them over this exact topic. My perspective has changed. I used to get upset about scoring pace and losing to someone that "isn't any good" because of their handicap. I spent all my time being upset about the way that bowling is. But you know what I noticed? All the people that didn't have manufacturer shirts with patches on them and drag 8 balls into league and didn't have to have 2 lane courtesy and ordered 3 pitchers of beer at a time were having a whole ton of fun and I never was. I was the guy ruining the night for people like this because I was "good" and bowling is too easy and somebody lane jumped me and as soon as I dropped the attitude and focused on helping people enjoy bowling the way they wanted to, I found out I started enjoying it more too. A walled up shot in a handicap league that pays the league winner $150 a man isn't the place to get excited about anything. The better bowler will still win the majority of the time, and at one time we were all that 160 average bowler getting 50 sticks a game excited when we finally made that big average jump and got the advantage of the handicap until our averages caught up with us, and if you piss that guy off and drive him away because he isn't any good and is shooting big numbers just flinging it all over the place, he won't ever turn into something more.
NOBODY WANTS TOUGHER LEAGUE SHOTS. It's a fact of life. Doesn't matter how it "should be." Tournaments are for the die hards who want to go beat their brains out. Otherwise, like I said on the video I made, the SCRATCH bowler is the one who has all the incentive in the world to get better. If handicap is 90% of 220 and I average 240, boy all I have to do is shoot my average and everyone else has to do the work. And if they're scoring flinging it all over the place, well then I have no excuse not to do well because that means the pattern is WIDE open. Your attitudes and opinion will not help bowling, it will hurt it, as mine did. I'm not the toolbag behind the counter in the pro shop anymore telling people what they should want and how they should throw the ball and that the way they want the ball the fit is wrong and stupid. THE ABSOLUTE BIGGEST POINT IS THAT NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A PRO. Some people want to just fling the ball out there and watch it hook, that's how they have fun. For the die hards, there are scratch tournaments, sport tournaments, PBA regionals, or just the tour period. Don't get in the middle of the casual bowlers' fun and tell them they're doing it wrong.
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You are right about all the taping and verification. USBC is always a step behind. I was thinking in terms of tournaments where I have bowled on nothing but flatter pattens for several years.
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Tommy, your opinion is the same one I had 5 years ago. I was the one yelling and screaming and throwing fits here, itsallaboutme and northface will remember, I had more than one argument with them over this exact topic. My perspective has changed. I used to get upset about scoring pace and losing to someone that "isn't any good" because of their handicap. I spent all my time being upset about the way that bowling is. But you know what I noticed? All the people that didn't have manufacturer shirts with patches on them and drag 8 balls into league and didn't have to have 2 lane courtesy and ordered 3 pitchers of beer at a time were having a whole ton of fun and I never was. I was the guy ruining the night for people like this because I was "good" and bowling is too easy and somebody lane jumped me and as soon as I dropped the attitude and focused on helping people enjoy bowling the way they wanted to, I found out I started enjoying it more too. A walled up shot in a handicap league that pays the league winner $150 a man isn't the place to get excited about anything. The better bowler will still win the majority of the time, and at one time we were all that 160 average bowler getting 50 sticks a game excited when we finally made that big average jump and got the advantage of the handicap until our averages caught up with us, and if you piss that guy off and drive him away because he isn't any good and is shooting big numbers just flinging it all over the place, he won't ever turn into something more.
NOBODY WANTS TOUGHER LEAGUE SHOTS. It's a fact of life. Doesn't matter how it "should be." Tournaments are for the die hards who want to go beat their brains out. Otherwise, like I said on the video I made, the SCRATCH bowler is the one who has all the incentive in the world to get better. If handicap is 90% of 220 and I average 240, boy all I have to do is shoot my average and everyone else has to do the work. And if they're scoring flinging it all over the place, well then I have no excuse not to do well because that means the pattern is WIDE open. Your attitudes and opinion will not help bowling, it will hurt it, as mine did. I'm not the toolbag behind the counter in the pro shop anymore telling people what they should want and how they should throw the ball and that the way they want the ball the fit is wrong and stupid. THE ABSOLUTE BIGGEST POINT IS THAT NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO BE A PRO. Some people want to just fling the ball out there and watch it hook, that's how they have fun. For the die hards, there are scratch tournaments, sport tournaments, PBA regionals, or just the tour period. Don't get in the middle of the casual bowlers' fun and tell them they're doing it wrong.
exactly how i feel
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A Golf Slope rating for bowling, that's been brought up and discussed many times before in regards to bowling over the years.
But has never gone anywhere, A lot felt that the ratings would wind up being based mostly on the Inspector/Raters opinion and would be too subjective and not consistent around the country.
With the advent of Kegel's LaneMap technology part of that could be addressed, But to implement this idea would require money and let's face it bowler's won't pay for it.
As for a Tier system that would most likely turn into a mess that everyone would complain about.
It would be like what happened to scratch and handicap leagues. The money dried up in the scratch leagues prizfunds, so they all ran over to handicap leagues. Then all the complaining about handicap, conditions, sandbaggers etc. started.
One tier would wind up being where all the money was (most likely the lowest tier the one where all the ordinary lower ave, bowlers are, the ones that feed the prizefunds) and everyone would be trying to be in or stay in it.
Well said. Sharks rarely want to swim with other sharks. They would much rather feast on minnows all the while diminishing and demeaning them every step of the way.
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I didn't get the survey, what do you have to do to get the survey emailed?
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Couldn't agree more than with comments made by In The Zone Pro Shop - Manager. THS is fine for 90-95% of bowlers as they and myself included bowl to have fun and have a nite out with friends. I love bowling and anyone on this site would be the same and I'm sure would enjoy more challenging league conditions but we would be the minority of league bowlers. But as someone who has bowled the last 20+ years at a AMF, now Bowlero center, my team is moving to just go to an independent house that cares about their center and bowlers. Not really concerned about the shot.....
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A Golf Slope rating for bowling, that's been brought up and discussed many times before in regards to bowling over the years.
But has never gone anywhere, A lot felt that the ratings would wind up being based mostly on the Inspector/Raters opinion and would be too subjective and not consistent around the country.
With the advent of Kegel's LaneMap technology part of that could be addressed, But to implement this idea would require money and let's face it bowler's won't pay for it.
As for a Tier system that would most likely turn into a mess that everyone would complain about.
It would be like what happened to scratch and handicap leagues. The money dried up in the scratch leagues prizfunds, so they all ran over to handicap leagues. Then all the complaining about handicap, conditions, sandbaggers etc. started.
One tier would wind up being where all the money was (most likely the lowest tier the one where all the ordinary lower ave, bowlers are, the ones that feed the prizefunds) and everyone would be trying to be in or stay in it.
Well said. Sharks rarely want to swim with other sharks. They would much rather feast on minnows all the while diminishing and demeaning them every step of the way.
#scratchbowling
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#lessthan10%ofleaguebowlersarescratch People trying to be all competitive and pissy in a handicap league that might pay you back $200 at the end of the year IF you sweep the league confuse me. Go bowl something else. And if there IS nothing else to bowl, I've got a few theories on why that is . .
A Golf Slope rating for bowling, that's been brought up and discussed many times before in regards to bowling over the years.
But has never gone anywhere, A lot felt that the ratings would wind up being based mostly on the Inspector/Raters opinion and would be too subjective and not consistent around the country.
With the advent of Kegel's LaneMap technology part of that could be addressed, But to implement this idea would require money and let's face it bowler's won't pay for it.
As for a Tier system that would most likely turn into a mess that everyone would complain about.
It would be like what happened to scratch and handicap leagues. The money dried up in the scratch leagues prizfunds, so they all ran over to handicap leagues. Then all the complaining about handicap, conditions, sandbaggers etc. started.
One tier would wind up being where all the money was (most likely the lowest tier the one where all the ordinary lower ave, bowlers are, the ones that feed the prizefunds) and everyone would be trying to be in or stay in it.
Well said. Sharks rarely want to swim with other sharks. They would much rather feast on minnows all the while diminishing and demeaning them every step of the way.
#scratchbowling
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#lessthan10%ofleaguebowlersarescratch People trying to be all competitive and pissy in a handicap league that might pay you back $200 at the end of the year IF you sweep the league confuse me. Go bowl something else. And if there IS nothing else to bowl, I've got a few theories on why that is . .
A Golf Slope rating for bowling, that's been brought up and discussed many times before in regards to bowling over the years.
But has never gone anywhere, A lot felt that the ratings would wind up being based mostly on the Inspector/Raters opinion and would be too subjective and not consistent around the country.
With the advent of Kegel's LaneMap technology part of that could be addressed, But to implement this idea would require money and let's face it bowler's won't pay for it.
As for a Tier system that would most likely turn into a mess that everyone would complain about.
It would be like what happened to scratch and handicap leagues. The money dried up in the scratch leagues prizfunds, so they all ran over to handicap leagues. Then all the complaining about handicap, conditions, sandbaggers etc. started.
One tier would wind up being where all the money was (most likely the lowest tier the one where all the ordinary lower ave, bowlers are, the ones that feed the prizefunds) and everyone would be trying to be in or stay in it.
Well said. Sharks rarely want to swim with other sharks. They would much rather feast on minnows all the while diminishing and demeaning them every step of the way.
#scratchbowling
It's because a vast majority of people that say they want tougher conditions still want to be handed their scores. The novelty of tougher conditions wears off and they don't respect the grind.
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That's because the people that chirp the most about wanting tougher conditions think they are better than they are and think everyone else's scores will go down and theirs won't.
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Alrighty, so this is my takeaway from the discussion..
1) by and large, the reasons for bowling's decline in the U.S. have little if anything to do with the rise in scoring, but are the results of broader socioeconomic factors.
2) though most of we forum-lurking lane dwellers would like more of a challenge, most league bowlers would not be happy bowling on butt-clenchinly difficult patterns all the time.
3) without MAJOR fundage, enforcement of any tighter USBC regulations would be impossible, (although, perhaps this job creation could be subsidized? get a lobbyist to Washington folks!! joking of course ::) )
4) for the smaller percentage of dedicated bowlers, there are still avenues by which you can challenge yourself. <<< now HERE is where i will disagree, i think that casual bowlers have indeed supplanted the space where by more serious bowlers could get some game-time on the lanes, mostly because, for reasons already stated, they are more profitable.
EDIT: one thing i forgot to mention, i think we can all agree that the oil conditions, got easier and so to did the equipment get much stronger. I think part of the reason oil conditions are being talked about so much is because changing the equipment standards at this point would set ball manufacturers back quite a lot, though i'm sure they would dream up some new workaround quick (maybe they already have a contingency plan?). also, a whole lot of equipment would likely become illegal, which means those guys that have a whole rack 'a balls would need to go out and buy all new equipment. on the other hand, changing the oil pattern is as easy as just putting down a new pattern, it takes a few minutes and bam, game is different.
my creative solution to this problem (being the lack of challenging conditions to bowl on) has basically been to use a plastic ball and try to maintain my average. a few guys in my league practice with plastic very often, usually after the lanes have been blown to hell from cosmic bowling, just so they can be more accurate, and it works.
As for the state of the sport itself, i don't think tenpins will disappear altogether, but the fact is that it's not up to us, bowling just isn't that popular in this League of Legends/ Call of Duty/[insert videogame here] world of free digital entertainment. Sometimes you have to go out and create your own challenges. All we can do is remain dedicated and hope the changes in the wind bring favor our way.
whatever the USBC has cooked up for these surveys, we'll have to adapt and hope it doesn't hurt the sport.
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That's because the people that chirp the most about wanting tougher conditions think they are better than they are and think everyone else's scores will go down and theirs won't.
I'm not sure this is a universal truth. I've been bowling scratch THS for the past 18 years. Over the past 5 years I've been also bowling Scratch Sport leagues during the regular season. My experience is that in general, the bowlers who do these leagues are the most introspective and realistic about their true abilities. Getting your brains beat in by actually bowling in these environments is a true reality check.
I agree that only a small percentage of bowlers really want this kind of experience. Still, I bowl in 4 different houses, and each has enough motivated bowlers to put together 12 trio teams for sport bowling. I don't see a reason why most houses can't put together at least one league where one of the less demanding Kegel sport patterns are used. What turns a lot of bowlers off is having shock of bowling the US Open pattern on a weekly basis. Tommygn is right that it doesn't have to be this extreme.
Put out a reasonable sport pattern starting with one league and recognize the scores as a more unique accomplishment. It's not about "believing you are better", but having an option beyond the tired old THS.
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I've been on the other side of the counter for over 30 years. I'm pretty realistic in my observations.
Centers could put something together if they wanted to. A lot have. Then 11 people will show up. From a business standpoint it's not worth the time and effort.
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The true scratch bowling community has always been too small a niche to be profitable to proprietors. When I was young we complained if the lanes were too tough, and we were slow so we always had the late leagues. Most guys who considered themselves scratch bowlers were Dependant on the conditions, but the elite level of scratch bowlers knew they could come to the top on high scoring conditions better than on tough shots.
Equipment got stronger and the knowledge of how to throw a powerful ball. As result we produced a new level of sub scratch level bowler who became more Dependant on a certain type of hooking condition. That group has over the years become a large enough segment of bowlers that it us not viewed by proprietors as a group they can ignore. On the other hand the modern lane machines a lane conditioning knowledge has made it easier to supply the needs of bothvsegments.
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The manufacturers are also the ones holding bowling up right now or at least competitive bowling up anyway. You put the screws to the manufacturers and competitive bowling very nearly ceases to exist.
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I've been on the other side of the counter for over 30 years. I'm pretty realistic in my observations.
Centers could put something together if they wanted to. A lot have. Then 11 people will show up. From a business standpoint it's not worth the time and effort.
Centers are notoriously poor at setting up and recruiting for scratch sport leagues. Putting out flyers, sitting back, and expecting bowlers to naturally show up is a recipe for failure.
Our latest sport league set up last year was spearheaded by a local regional staffer. A guy on a true mission. He put a couple of man weeks into negotiating time/lineage with center management, setting up the logics of the league, securing sponsorship, and personally recruiting most candidate bowlers both face-to-face and through social media.
It takes a lot of personal dedication and it isn't going to happen depending on Center employees. That's a big reason so few of these leagues exist.
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That's a good point and I completely agree BUT the return on all that effort is usually low, and the better the bowler, the more time you put into them and less you get out of them. The scratch or tournament bowler is someone that is virtually worthless to the bowling center.
I've been on the other side of the counter for over 30 years. I'm pretty realistic in my observations.
Centers could put something together if they wanted to. A lot have. Then 11 people will show up. From a business standpoint it's not worth the time and effort.
Centers are notoriously poor at setting up and recruiting for scratch sport leagues. Putting out flyers, sitting back, and expecting bowlers to naturally show up is a recipe for failure.
Our latest sport league set up last year was spearheaded by a local regional staffer. A guy on a true mission. He put a couple of man weeks into negotiating time/lineage with center management, setting up the logics of the league, securing sponsorship, and personally recruiting most candidate bowlers both face-to-face and through social media.
It takes a lot of personal dedication and it isn't going to happen depending on Center employees. That's a big reason so few of these leagues exist.
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That's a good point and I completely agree BUT the return on all that effort is usually low, and the better the bowler, the more time you put into them and less you get out of them. The scratch or tournament bowler is someone that is virtually worthless to the bowling center.
Centers hate empty lanes. They'd rather have 12 lanes booked during mid-week 9:00pm dead time than an almost guarantee no activity. Add some high margin beer and food sales that otherwise wouldn't happen, and it's not a bad deal for the center.
The point is that these leagues can and do happen with passionate grass roots effort. The major longer term benefit I see to the center is the cultivation of bowlers still developing their skills. They practice more and many end up bowling more leagues than they otherwise would. That's not a bad thing.
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You should buy a bowling center since you have it all figured out.
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You should buy a bowling center since you have it all figured out.
Don't need to. I have a good friend who owns several. I get bowling benefits and information without the headaches.
But thanks for your insights anyway...
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Wow, this morphed into a handicap vs scratch topic. If the USBC toughened up the requirements on oil patterns gradually, how many people would even notice? It is beyond me how you can have a governing body that has no real say in how league oil patterns are set up. It is simple, if you want to bowl a sanctioned league you follow these guidelines. You can run your "fun" league if you want, it just isn't sanctioned. If you want "Wally World" you have it you just can't use your average for anything other than your league handicap. Every league would have the option on deciding what they want to be. It wont affect anyone's bottom line.
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Wow, this morphed into a handicap vs scratch topic. If the USBC toughened up the requirements on oil patterns gradually, how many people would even notice? It is beyond me how you can have a governing body that has no real say in how league oil patterns are set up. It is simple, if you want to bowl a sanctioned league you follow these guidelines. You can run your "fun" league if you want, it just isn't sanctioned. If you want "Wally World" you have it you just can't use your average for anything other than your league handicap. Every league would have the option on deciding what they want to be. It wont affect anyone's bottom line.
I think the majority of leagues are already "fun" leagues and the USBC would be foolish as a business to do anything that would result in the "fun" leagues deciding to not be part of the USBC. Again the % of bowlers that want tougher conditions is so small that making the general shot for all leagues makes no business sense from a sanctioning body as most leagues will in the end opt out.
In my small state of CT there are plenty of bowling centers where at most there is 1 elite league in a house. The crappy BowlMor/AMF chain dominates in my area and they do not care about the "sport" in anyway and would welcome losing USBC rules IMHO.
If the USBC wants to cater to all levels of bowling it should adopt type of levels/tiers for leagues where majority would follow current lane conditions and other level leagues that the USBC promotes and sets up within the local associations. I know that is the "sport" bowling concept I guess but it should'nt be called "sport" bowling as that is a failed attempt which I can talk at length about in terms of marketing etc. The key to any attempt like this is for the USBC to really work and market it along with local associations. Honestly I dont see this ever occurring but one could dream.
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I wish more people would understand that a house shot is still a challenge to 90% of bowlers. Even as a high average scratch bowler I learned a long time ago that respecting the condition and doing my best to make consistently good shots was the best way to score the best on a house shot or a sport shot. I like sport patterns, not because I am some kind of masochist who likes to struggle to average 190. Rather I like them because there is a way to score on many sport patterns if I can be versatile enough to find the best way to make my game work.
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Isn't a tier basically what I'm talking about? All in all it is pointless to talk about, it's one of those issues where there is definitely two sides. If the USBC is the regulatory body of bowling, then they should enforce or at least put out minimum requirements that bowling centers are required to follow in order to receive sanctioned status.
Not every league has to be USBC certified, so if you don't want to follow the guidelines don't. There are plenty of leagues around me who do not sanction their leagues by choice
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Isn't a tier basically what I'm talking about? All in all it is pointless to talk about, it's one of those issues where there is definitely two sides. If the USBC is the regulatory body of bowling, then they should enforce or at least put out minimum requirements that bowling centers are required to follow in order to receive sanctioned status.
Not every league has to be USBC certified, so if you don't want to follow the guidelines don't. There are plenty of leagues around me who do not sanction their leagues by choice
Yes you are correct but the 2 tiers are in USBC and not in the USBC. In my area most to all leagues (at night / fall/winter) are sanctioned leagues and if the game became harder for the 180-210 bowler who are in all leagues to bowl with their wives, buddies, teammates who have no desire to be sanctioned would over time drop out of USBC as they also generally dont want tougher conditions. If this was to occur where the leagues that now may only have a percentage of bowlers in them wanting it to be a sanctioned league they generally stay sanctioned to keep all of the bowlers and teams they can in the league. Lose all these type of leagues the USBC will go away too as it is now comprised.
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Perhaps you are right, but if an average is used to delineate anything, there should be some uniformity.
I'm not even talking "elite vs average joe" I'm talking 180 in one center vs 180 in a different center/city/state
I think just saying people will leave if all sanctioned leagues are required to bowl on a minimum standard (say white) is an easy cop out
I personally have no real stake in this, I only bowl scratch whatever the tournament so handicap doesn't affect me one way or another. I just chose on the survey that the conditions have gotten too soft.
thanks to everyone for talking about it
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Just saw Riggs posted on his blog "USBC working towards possibly proposing more stringent ball technology rules"
So maybe what the survey is about
** Just read the blog, lots of quotes from Chad Murphy (from his facebook post) talking about exactly what we have been discussing here
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It's much easier to get other leagues together. If a summer scratch or sport league is what you're trying to work out to get butts in seats, that's a failing center. Yes, it takes a lot of work to get a scratch/sport league up and keep it running. By and large though, it's MUCH easier and much more profitable to run different leagues.
And this is EXACTLY my point. Cultivation of bowlers improving their skills DOES NOT HAPPEN this way. All the scratch and "elite" bowlers do nothing but run these people off. The average bowler HATES HATES HATES scratch bowlers. Scratch bowlers are the ones killing off exactly what they think they're trying to preserve. Had a group of egos in here bowling the state tournament yesterday with their fancy High 5 shirts with all their sponsor patches on there and all in matching slacks and their wristers and compression sleeves and KT tape taking 2 lane courtesy and glaring at people "lane jumping" them and making a big show of everything they did and the people bowling around them weren't happy, not to mention they really didn't end up bowling that good anyway. The average bowler HATES that, and avabob makes a good point when he says that house shots are still hard to 90% of bowlers ANYWAY. Scratch bowlers however are just content to sit back and whine when something isn't going their way instead of DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have dozens of people in town whining about handicap and how bowling is going, so the center put together a scratch league last summer, got two teams. Put one together this summer, 6 teams but it's just a DOUBLES league.
Bottom line is all the egos just whine and do nothing. They think they ought to bowl for free and get everything handed to them and have everyone else do all the work because "they're good and they deserve it." Again, putting the screws to the bowling companies, who are the ones supporting competitive bowling in the first place, isn't a good idea. People will be pissed.
That's a good point and I completely agree BUT the return on all that effort is usually low, and the better the bowler, the more time you put into them and less you get out of them. The scratch or tournament bowler is someone that is virtually worthless to the bowling center.
Centers hate empty lanes. They'd rather have 12 lanes booked during mid-week 9:00pm dead time than an almost guarantee no activity. Add some high margin beer and food sales that otherwise wouldn't happen, and it's not a bad deal for the center.
The point is that these leagues can and do happen with passionate grass roots effort. The major longer term benefit I see to the center is the cultivation of bowlers still developing their skills. They practice more and many end up bowling more leagues than they otherwise would. That's not a bad thing.
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It's much easier to get other leagues together. If a summer scratch or sport league is what you're trying to work out to get butts in seats, that's a failing center. Yes, it takes a lot of work to get a scratch/sport league up and keep it running. By and large though, it's MUCH easier and much more profitable to run different leagues.
And this is EXACTLY my point. Cultivation of bowlers improving their skills DOES NOT HAPPEN this way. All the scratch and "elite" bowlers do nothing but run these people off. The average bowler HATES HATES HATES scratch bowlers. Scratch bowlers are the ones killing off exactly what they think they're trying to preserve. Had a group of egos in here bowling the state tournament yesterday with their fancy High 5 shirts with all their sponsor patches on there and all in matching slacks and their wristers and compression sleeves and KT tape taking 2 lane courtesy and glaring at people "lane jumping" them and making a big show of everything they did and the people bowling around them weren't happy, not to mention they really didn't end up bowling that good anyway. The average bowler HATES that, and avabob makes a good point when he says that house shots are still hard to 90% of bowlers ANYWAY. Scratch bowlers however are just content to sit back and whine when something isn't going their way instead of DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Have dozens of people in town whining about handicap and how bowling is going, so the center put together a scratch league last summer, got two teams. Put one together this summer, 6 teams but it's just a DOUBLES league.
Bottom line is all the egos just whine and do nothing. They think they ought to bowl for free and get everything handed to them and have everyone else do all the work because "they're good and they deserve it." Again, putting the screws to the bowling companies, who are the ones supporting competitive bowling in the first place, isn't a good idea. People will be pissed.
That's a good point and I completely agree BUT the return on all that effort is usually low, and the better the bowler, the more time you put into them and less you get out of them. The scratch or tournament bowler is someone that is virtually worthless to the bowling center.
Centers hate empty lanes. They'd rather have 12 lanes booked during mid-week 9:00pm dead time than an almost guarantee no activity. Add some high margin beer and food sales that otherwise wouldn't happen, and it's not a bad deal for the center.
The point is that these leagues can and do happen with passionate grass roots effort. The major longer term benefit I see to the center is the cultivation of bowlers still developing their skills. They practice more and many end up bowling more leagues than they otherwise would. That's not a bad thing.
The very fact that you keep dealing with absolutes, is what is WRONG with bowling, and society in general.
Glad you KNOW exactly what ALL bowlers want and what's best for ALL bowlers all across the country.
And one last point, mixing scratch bowlers with handicap bowlers is EXACTLY what we do with a summer league here, and the league has the highest retention of bowlers, and has the highest participation of players of all summer leagues in our area. Also, the summer king of the hill tournaments that are run on USBC White pattern, and or "modified house conditions", has more entries EVERY week, compared to the King of Hills run on house conditions. We have used one of the USBC white patterns for going on about 8 years now, for our youth league. Our league has had less drop off than ALL the other youth leagues in our area.
But keep speaking in absolutes as you seem to know it all.....
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All the scratch and "elite" bowlers do nothing but run these people off. The average bowler HATES HATES HATES scratch bowlers. Scratch bowlers are the ones killing off exactly what they think they're trying to preserve. Had a group of egos in here bowling the state tournament yesterday with their fancy High 5 shirts with all their sponsor patches on there and all in matching slacks and their wristers and compression sleeves and KT tape taking 2 lane courtesy and glaring at people "lane jumping" them and making a big show of everything they did and the people bowling around them weren't happy, not to mention they really didn't end up bowling that good anyway. The average bowler HATES that, and avabob makes a good point when he says that house shots are still hard to 90% of bowlers ANYWAY. Scratch bowlers however are just content to sit back and whine when something isn't going their way instead of DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
I certainly wouldn't consider myself "Elite" I win some and lose some like everyone else and I have people running out shots (especially on a house shot), slapping them off, and taking two lane courtesies. I have no problem with people matching shirts and slacks.
I think one thing is clear, something is changing at the USBC. They are going to start restricting balls (which you say isn't a good idea) or you are going to see tougher oil patterns so the ball companies like yours Storm/Roto Grip can continue to make money on their equipment.
Your tag line says you're a proshop manager so you would some feel for what bowlers want better than I do so if you say 90% bowlers think house shots are still difficult I'll defer to you
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Finding the proper balance between fun leagues, birthday parties, scratch and or tournament play, and open play is the key to a successful business. When you focus on only one option, or alienate an option, you aren't really thinking about the big picture, and bowling as a whole. Unfortunately, without a mix, what may seem to be ok right now, will catch you on the hind end, later.
Itzps, I do have a question for you. If all these bowlers are all about just having fun, and they hate scratch bowlers so much, just because we are so called elitist, then why would it even matter if their scores are recognized by a governing body anyway? Your argument is against a tiered system that allows bowlers to just have fun, allows true competition and allows for something in between; so who is it that actually has ego's that needs protecting?
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Later has already passed. Most of bowling is in a race to the bottom right now. In all but the best of centers the league base is terrible and open play customers think it's 1990 and anything over $2.00 a game is highway robbery.
One of my contacts told me today "bowling is crashing faster than I even thought it would ." And this is from someone that has always been realistic about the future.
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My argument is not against that, I'm just more realistic about what's actually possible. My argument is for allowing people to have fun bowling the way they want to. Some people want to chuck the ball down there and watch it hook, some people want brutally tough conditions that challenge them. My point is that the very second you start telling people what they're going to do and funneling them one way or the other is when you start losing them. I spend the vast majority of my life in a bowling center, and when I'm not in a bowling center, I'm making videos and on Facebook and answering texts, messages, and comments. I talk to dozens of people a day, so I feel like I've got a pretty good idea what every group wants. Some things aren't realistic or possible regardless of whether or not that's the way it should be. Games like bowling and golf have zero absolutes, one course or condition that is challenging to one person may be simple to another. Mandate a certain condition, sure, but it may play completely different at one house than it does at another. There are too many ideas that sound great in theory but don't pan out when you try to realistically apply them.
You have all the heads at USBC who spend all their time around like minded people who want more restrictions and tougher this and tougher that, but at the same time you have lifetime 170 average bowlers who things are already tough enough for. Bowlers also vote by attendance and their money, and increased difficulty is not popular in the least. Say you offer more diversity in terms of leagues and conditions and your tiers and whatever. Then you fragment your player population too much. Why do people go golfing? The expression that a bad day of golf is better than a good day at work. There's no expression like that for bowling. All I know is that bowling isn't gonna grow if you piss off and ostracize 90% of your membership. You want people interested, you want them having fun, if they aren't or they stop having fun, they're never going to want anything more. All the egos and elitists basically want to force everyone to have fun bowling the way they do, but all they're really trying to do is set everything up for their own success. All the scratch bowling "professional amateurs" love the way the OC is set up right now, because it couldn't be any more perfectly designed for them to come in and prey on all the regular league bowlers. They WANT the 230 average wall babies to come in and drop a grand a squad in brackets so they can take all that money.
Bottom line, my point in a nutshell is that the second you start mandating or directing how people are supposed to have fun, you take a bad situation and make it worse. They're trying to take all bowling and make it competitive and most people just don't want that.
Finding the proper balance between fun leagues, birthday parties, scratch and or tournament play, and open play is the key to a successful business. When you focus on only one option, or alienate an option, you aren't really thinking about the big picture, and bowling as a whole. Unfortunately, without a mix, what may seem to be ok right now, will catch you on the hind end, later.
Itzps, I do have a question for you. If all these bowlers are all about just having fun, and they hate scratch bowlers so much, just because we are so called elitist, then why would it even matter if their scores are recognized by a governing body anyway? Your argument is against a tiered system that allows bowlers to just have fun, allows true competition and allows for something in between; so who is it that actually has ego's that needs protecting?
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People really don't care about a governing body, they don't know what their sanction fee every year is getting them, and they complain about it every year. I'm not entirely sure you get what I'm saying, you think I'm against things I'm not against and that I don't seem to understand "the key to a successful business." I'm saying exactly what you're saying, if you aren't selling what people want to buy, you will fail as a business. USBC right now is trying to sell what they want to sell and not what people want to buy, it's as simple as that.
Finding the proper balance between fun leagues, birthday parties, scratch and or tournament play, and open play is the key to a successful business. When you focus on only one option, or alienate an option, you aren't really thinking about the big picture, and bowling as a whole. Unfortunately, without a mix, what may seem to be ok right now, will catch you on the hind end, later.
Itzps, I do have a question for you. If all these bowlers are all about just having fun, and they hate scratch bowlers so much, just because we are so called elitist, then why would it even matter if their scores are recognized by a governing body anyway? Your argument is against a tiered system that allows bowlers to just have fun, allows true competition and allows for something in between; so who is it that actually has ego's that needs protecting?
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Well with all the balls of the month coming out.I suggest the ball companies to merge with the usbc.They seem to be sponsering every one and tournaments.Obviously they know how to make money.Everybody is a staffer.With bowling centers closing on a regular basis.guess they will just keep pumping those 200$ balls out for yard art.We have guys who are staffers here who can't bowl there way out of a paperbag.But they keep getting those free balls of month.I am sure someone will say oh but the ball companies are about to go under.They sure are fooling me.
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Well with all the balls of the month coming out.I suggest the ball companies to merge with the usbc.They seem to be sponsering every one and tournaments.Obviously they know how to make money.Everybody is a staffer.With bowling centers closing on a regular basis.guess they will just keep pumping those 200$ balls out for yard art.We have guys who are staffers here who can't bowl there way out of a paperbag.But they keep getting those free balls of month.I am sure someone will say oh but the ball companies are about to go under.They sure are fooling me.
The members numbers have been falling out the bottom for 20-30 yrs. Proprietor's are losing $$ or closing the doors. The only ones making the $$$$ are the ball companies. Is there a real problem?
By putting the onus on the house & lane conditioning for tougher shots you are slitting the throats of the ones already losing their collective asses & assets {THE house} to begin with. That's BS! The governing body -lol {ABC/USBC} have allowed this to take place for far too long. They lost control a long time ago All the while kissing the ball makers asses so they can reap the benefits? More BS!
Of course that IS par for the course in this country in everything. Integrity- where?
If golf got rid of all the tees except the front/womens and made the hole 3 ft wide that would compare to the THS we see today. Everyone & their blind, uncoordinated uncle would be shooting in the 40-50's. After being totally away from this game in all aspects for over 17 yrs. I see how much things have changed & NOT for the better. SHAME! But that's right I'm an elitist/scratch- hdcp. WTFever
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Every one likes to make golf comparisons, but yours is way off. You cannot score on a house shot without executing. What you can be on a housevshot is one dimensional.
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People really don't care about a governing body, they don't know what their sanction fee every year is getting them, and they complain about it every year. I'm not entirely sure you get what I'm saying, you think I'm against things I'm not against and that I don't seem to understand "the key to a successful business." I'm saying exactly what you're saying, if you aren't selling what people want to buy, you will fail as a business. USBC right now is trying to sell what they want to sell and not what people want to buy, it's as simple as that.
Finding the proper balance between fun leagues, birthday parties, scratch and or tournament play, and open play is the key to a successful business. When you focus on only one option, or alienate an option, you aren't really thinking about the big picture, and bowling as a whole. Unfortunately, without a mix, what may seem to be ok right now, will catch you on the hind end, later.
Itzps, I do have a question for you. If all these bowlers are all about just having fun, and they hate scratch bowlers so much, just because we are so called elitist, then why would it even matter if their scores are recognized by a governing body anyway? Your argument is against a tiered system that allows bowlers to just have fun, allows true competition and allows for something in between; so who is it that actually has ego's that needs protecting?
That's because it's the fault of bowling center management and league admins that don't explain what they get for their money. The very rules that they use and abide by, are products of the ABC/USBC. The bonding, the compiling of league averages and "award-able scores", all from the USBC.
Again, you are being contradictory. If NO ONE cares about the USBC, then why should it matter if they form a Tiered system that allows rec bowlers to "just have fun" while forming a middle ground that is in between sport and all out scoring;, becasue that is what league should be called these days, scoring. If people "love BOWLING", and "have fun BOWLING", the scoring pace is somewhat irrelevant.
You can't have it both ways, and say that no one cares about the USBC, and then say that the USBC shouldn't try and give some integrity to the game of bowling for those that DO care about the game and the sport.
Look, I'm about done here, as I am entirely TOO busy to be making videos and snap chatting and doing whatever else you young guys like to do to be "social". I am busy being the president of our only local sport league, busy coaching our our youth league every single Saturday morning that I'm not at a PBA regional (member since 2001) for the past 20 YEARS; busy skipping lunch breaks so that I can go practice for said regionals because there is no other time for me to get that in; busy organizing bowlers to bowl a summer league; busy organizing our states bowling team; all while working in and running a pro shop for the past 14 years. You see, I'm in the "trenches" daily, talking to the bowlers one on one, seeing their faces, reading their body language, so yeah, I think I have a pretty good understanding of the bowling community as a whole, also. All this while still finding time to bowl both scratch and handicap leagues, and supporting local tournaments, as well as having a full time job. And a side note, my bowling resume isn't too shabby either. There are people that have more to offer than I do based on experience, and people more than them. Just keep that in mind when you try dealing with "absolutes" like no one, and everyone, because the instant you do that, you are wrong, because not everyone feels the same things about everything.
When I see PBA regionals start using "USBC standard compliant patterns" because they are afraid to frighten new bowlers off, it's getting ridiculous. These high scoring league patterns that allow bowlers to just grab a hand full is starting to affect the way the PBA has to run it's program, to be able to survive. You are being naive if you think what goes on at a league level, doesn't affect tournament bowling, or affect the PBA tour, because it absolutely DOES.
But keep handing everyone everything, and wonder why there is entitlement issues.
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Every one likes to make golf comparisons, but yours is way off. You cannot score on a house shot without executing. What you can be on a housevshot is one dimensional.
Is this the execution you are talking about?? 12 strikes in less than 90 secs. Great repeatable shots at it's best!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnphc6qeNs
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Every one likes to make golf comparisons, but yours is way off. You cannot score on a house shot without executing. What you can be on a housevshot is one dimensional.
Is this the execution you are talking about?? 12 strikes in less than 90 secs. Great repeatable shots at it's best!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnphc6qeNs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnphc6qeNs)
LOL.. I saw that on FB a few days ago. It's not a testament to the integrity of a THS, but an impressive accomplishment none the less.
tommy, I just want to say I agree with your analysis 100%. It's very well articulated. I respect the other views that have been put forth, but a strategy of simply not wanting to piss off the masses at any cost isn't the answer.
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I love the golf analogy the best. I am a golf hack, I golf for fun I usually shoot in the 110-120 range. I have yet to find a golf course put out an easy shot for me so I can shoot par, but I golf anyway because I hang with friends, drink beer, and have a good time. So someone tell me how that compares to bowling again?
We can disagree, talk about our accomplishments and throw out arbitrary numbers all day long and this whole thread is getting confusing on who said what. But the USBC is coming and there will be changes in the future and I don't believe storm/EBI/Motiv or whatever other companies are making balls are going to allow the/want the USBC to take away their money with ball restrictions. So what does that leave? Stricter lane conditions, they don't have to be necessarily harder, they will just have to follow the standards.
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I have enjoyed the different points of view on this thread and commend those who have taken the time to explain their thoughts.
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Bowl.com has some interesting news about oil conditions
http://www.bowl.com/News/NewsDetails.aspx?id=23622329086
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There is never any resolutions to these arguments. People bowl for different reasons, and more important get their satisfaction from different aspects of the game. Fundamentally there is a human appeal to the violence of knocking down heavy pins with even heavier balls. People have found the challenge of attempting to knock down pins appealing enough that they want some level of standardization, necessitating the creation of a ruling body.
As the game advances the types of issues that need to be dealt with become more complex. For example during the 50's and 60's the ABC didn't have a need to deal with oil patterns. It was enough to make sure lane men didn't sand physical grooves into the lanes to enhance scoring. The difference between a flat oiled lane and a wall went away after 2 games when a track developed that made the pocket just as easy on either condition.
It was really the advancement in ball surfaces that necessitated rules to curb scoring. The soft shelled polyester increased carry potential so much that a hardness rule was adopted for the first time. Unfortunately the ABC was behind the curve technology wise. First they didn't recognize the impact on ball reaction of the change from soft lacquer to much harder urethane lane coatings. The result was a much more random and difficult lane transition on oil patterns that they had mandated. Scratch didn't like playing on flat oiled urethane and the ABC lost a lot of support from competitive bowlers. Even the PBA refused to oil their lanes in accordance with ABC rules.
The ABC ultimately softened the requirements, but once again got caught behind the curve when resin enhanced urethane was introduced. The resin balls increased the friction differential from oily to dry without violating the hardness rule. This advancement in ball technology effectively put the game back where it was in 1974 with shore D balls and no lane conditioning standards.
The game would be better if balls couldn't be made to hit so hard, but lane conditioning rules aren't the way to do it. The balls over power the patterns anyway.
Just to throw in the obligatory golf comparison the only thing that has saved golf from being over powered by technology is putting. I am 69 years old, and I can hit the ball as far today as I did when I was 35, thanks to my graphite shafted 460,cc driver.
Bottom line the USBC is far from perfect, but they are faced with an impossible task when you add prize money to all the technological issues they must deal with.
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That guy shot a 300 in the same time it takes a "good bowler" to throw a single shot.
I don't know what your deal is. We can say virtually the same thing and you for some reason aren't getting it. I've been a shop operator for 11 years, I'm a director on our city association, I'm in charge of lane certification for the city, I coach, am involved with our youth program, and spend 60-70 hours a week in the bowling center, not to mention all the comments, texts, and messages I field when I'm not there. I know what people are saying too. I have been saying exactly this: "because not everyone feels the same things about everything," in every single comment I've made on this post so far, and you're skimming over that or missing it somehow. There is ONE absolute in bowling, and that is that EVERYONE ENJOYS IT DIFFERENTLY. I've been using ALL CAPS because lowercase letters don't seem to be getting the point across.
Horse has been beaten, and you're just not getting what I'm saying. FYI, I despise social media and hashtagging and whatever else.
Every one likes to make golf comparisons, but yours is way off. You cannot score on a house shot without executing. What you can be on a housevshot is one dimensional.
Is this the execution you are talking about?? 12 strikes in less than 90 secs. Great repeatable shots at it's best!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQnphc6qeNs