BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: ldkelleyb5 on September 04, 2017, 06:33:44 PM
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If you get 1 mark in the 10th, is it considered a clean game? I'm fairly sure that if you get a spare and change in the 10th, it should be a clean game, but I'm wondering more about a strike, then, say, a 7 count, then a 2.
Just something I've been wondering about for some time, and everyone seems to have a different answer.
Thanks!
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If you strike or spare on your first ball of the tenth, then it's a clean game the fill ball doesn't count.
But in thing's like clean game pots, it may depend on if they have their own local definition.
A USBC response to the question:
You only have to get one spare or strike in the 10th frame to keep the game clean.
The "Bowler's Guide" defines a Clean Game as follows: A game with spares or strikes in every frame.
Sincerely,
John Budnik,
Rules Counselor
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Ah, excellent, thank you. That's what I was after.
I realize tournaments and leagues may have their own definition for side pots, but I was after the 'USBC' definition.
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Had this discussion awhile back. I go by USBC, but I have seen all sorts of localn rules for pots. Some even even require a strike on the count ball.
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Had this discussion awhile back. I go by USBC, but I have seen all sorts of localn rules for pots. Some even even require a strike on the count ball.
Had this discussion awhile back. I go by USBC, but I have seen all sorts of localn rules for pots. Some even even require a strike on the count ball.
I've heard that as well.... Crazy
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Some only call a 300 a clean game
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USBC claim notwithstanding, I would be pissed at myself if I struck on the first shot, got count on the second and did not clean it up. To me, it would CEASE to be a clean game at that point.
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USBC claim notwithstanding, I would be pissed at myself if I struck on the first shot, got count on the second and did not clean it up. To me, it would CEASE to be a clean game at that point.
I agree. In my mind it should be punch out, double + count, strike + spare, spare + count. If you strike firat ball and dont pick up spare or gutter fill ball i dont consider it to be clean
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USBC claim notwithstanding, I would be pissed at myself if I struck on the first shot, got count on the second and did not clean it up. To me, it would CEASE to be a clean game at that point.
Agreed. As a matter of personal pride, I wouldn't want credit.
For our clean series pot in our scratch league, you have to clean that last shot up to get credit for a clean game. It makes things a little bit more of a challenge, and provides more credibility to the accomplishment. Both good things.
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Can leave count on last ball if middle ball is spare though? Threw a 185 clean by that definition today (spare in tenth and 9 on last ball, of course) with my Hy-Road. Sadly that is not my lowest clean game either.
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Glad to see there is do much integrity on what a clean game is. I assume you guys don't count Brooklyn's either.
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USBC claim notwithstanding, I would be pissed at myself if I struck on the first shot, got count on the second and did not clean it up. To me, it would CEASE to be a clean game at that point.
This is my viewpoint. I PERSONALLY don't count X9- as a clean game.
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USBC claim notwithstanding, I would be pissed at myself if I struck on the first shot, got count on the second and did not clean it up. To me, it would CEASE to be a clean game at that point.
This is my viewpoint. I PERSONALLY don't count X9- as a clean game.
This, I agree with.
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USBC claim notwithstanding, I would be pissed at myself if I struck on the first shot, got count on the second and did not clean it up. To me, it would CEASE to be a clean game at that point.
This is my viewpoint. I PERSONALLY don't count X9- as a clean game.
This, I agree with.
My team also does a traveling $5. Everyone puts up $1 at the start of the game. Every game a new person starts with it (week 1 bowler 1 would start with it game 1, bowler 2 starts with it game 2, bowler 3 starts with it game 3.........then week 2 bowler 4 starts with it etc...).
For ANY open it drops to the next person, whoever is in possession of it at the end of the game wins. Start with the $5 and have a clean game, you win. YOU determine your fate with it.
X9- you will drop it in the 10th.........max penalty is the way it should be IMO.
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For those who don't think a X9- in the tenth constitutes a clean game, would you return your 30 clean jackpot money at Nationals? I personally feel X9- in the tenth is a clean game. But I see I am in the minority here.
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For those who don't think a X9- in the tenth constitutes a clean game, would you return your 30 clean jackpot money at Nationals? I personally feel X9- in the tenth is a clean game. But I see I am in the minority here.
So if you had a ten pin left on the deck in the tenth, and the sweep took it off but the scoring system counted it as a strike, would YOU return the 30 clean jackpot money at Nationals?
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For those who don't think a X9- in the tenth constitutes a clean game, would you return your 30 clean jackpot money at Nationals? I personally feel X9- in the tenth is a clean game. But I see I am in the minority here.
No, because I understand the criteria before I participate and have agreed to it. Those are the rules set forth for that jackpot in that tournament. If I went X9- that is counted as clean in that tournament (I wouldn't personally consider it clean by my own definition) but there's nothing wrong w/collecting there b/c it fits the criteria. We're separating my opinion (and that's what it is on this topic) on a clean game vs an established criteria in a specific tournament.
In situations where our team makes up the rules X9- loses the bacon.
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USBC claim notwithstanding, I would be pissed at myself if I struck on the first shot, got count on the second and did not clean it up. To me, it would CEASE to be a clean game at that point.
This is my viewpoint. I PERSONALLY don't count X9- as a clean game.
This, I agree with.
My team also does a traveling $5. Everyone puts up $1 at the start of the game. Every game a new person starts with it (week 1 bowler 1 would start with it game 1, bowler 2 starts with it game 2, bowler 3 starts with it game 3.........then week 2 bowler 4 starts with it etc...).
For ANY open it drops to the next person, whoever is in possession of it at the end of the game wins. Start with the $5 and have a clean game, you win. YOU determine your fate with it.
X9- you will drop it in the 10th.........max penalty is the way it should be IMO.
I like this game, and I will be taking it to my team tonight. So if I understand this correctly, bowler #1 could have a crappy game with ten open frames for a wopping total of about 90. Bowler 5 (the anchor) could end up bowling a 299, but with 1 pin left on the deck at the end of the game - the anchor has to pass the $5 to bowler #1. With my team that could actually happen. I love it. We're playing that tonight.
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I like this game, and I will be taking it to my team tonight. So if I understand this correctly, bowler #1 could have a crappy game with ten open frames for a wopping total of about 90. Bowler 5 (the anchor) could end up bowling a 299, but with 1 pin left on the deck at the end of the game - the anchor has to pass the $5 to bowler #1. With my team that could actually happen. I love it. We're playing that tonight.
XX9 in the 10th for 299 is a winner.
If bowler 5 goes X9- it would drop to bowler 1 BUT if bowler 1 has already finished with an open in the 10th it would drop again to bowler 2.
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For those who don't think a X9- in the tenth constitutes a clean game, would you return your 30 clean jackpot money at Nationals? I personally feel X9- in the tenth is a clean game. But I see I am in the minority here.
So if you had a ten pin left on the deck in the tenth, and the sweep took it off but the scoring system counted it as a strike, would YOU return the 30 clean jackpot money at Nationals?
That is different. I would make sure the score was correct. If the correct score was X9-, then yes, I would get my money.
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USBC claim notwithstanding, I would be pissed at myself if I struck on the first shot, got count on the second and did not clean it up. To me, it would CEASE to be a clean game at that point.
This is my viewpoint. I PERSONALLY don't count X9- as a clean game.
This, I agree with.
My team also does a traveling $5. Everyone puts up $1 at the start of the game. Every game a new person starts with it (week 1 bowler 1 would start with it game 1, bowler 2 starts with it game 2, bowler 3 starts with it game 3.........then week 2 bowler 4 starts with it etc...).
For ANY open it drops to the next person, whoever is in possession of it at the end of the game wins. Start with the $5 and have a clean game, you win. YOU determine your fate with it.
X9- you will drop it in the 10th.........max penalty is the way it should be IMO.
We did that years ago but we called ours Pass Five.
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As a new bowler, I thought a clean game was no open frames. This means X9- is not a clean game. X9/ is a clean game. Am I right?
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As a new bowler, I thought a clean game was no open frames. This means X9- is not a clean game. X9/ is a clean game. Am I right?
It's all relative and depends on who is defining the term "clean", specifically how we judge the 10th frame against the term "clean".
One camp (as well as the USBC OC jackpot criterion) defines X9- as a "clean frame" and will get you the money.
The other camp (me personally, my team in league) defines X9- as not a "clean frame" and you will not get the money.
That said, I prefer the harshest set of rules to win jackpots.
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As a new bowler, I thought a clean game was no open frames. This means X9- is not a clean game. X9/ is a clean game. Am I right?
That's not an open frame though. An open frame is no spare or strike. There was a strike in the 10th.
Like it or not, those extra balls in the 10th are only there to fill the scoring requirements. Any mark in the 10th means it is not open.
The definition of a clean game is no open frames. That's it. There's no changing that.
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As a new bowler, I thought a clean game was no open frames. This means X9- is not a clean game. X9/ is a clean game. Am I right?
No, Not according to the classic definition of a "Clean" game.
Which is if you strike or spare on your first ball of the tenth, then it's a clean game the fill ball doesn't count.
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For me it's simply no open frames. If in the 10th I go X 7-0 I don't consider a clean game or set. If I go X 7/ then I consider it clean.
XX 8 or anything else I consider clean.
Many can justify not converting on a spare opportunity however they choose. For any event paying out you certainly need to specify what the requirements are in detail due to varying opinions.
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My team discussed it last night and decided traveling $5 would be no pins left on the deck at the end of the game counts as a clean game. So even XX9 isn't considered clean under our rules. Hey, it's only $5 bucks anyway and it makes it more interesting/fun.
I forgot to bring it up until after we started but I would have won all three games last night...........horribly, lol.
First game was clean for a 189, 2nd game was clean for a 194, 3d game open in the first/second after making a big move to see if it would work. It didn't. Went clean after that for a 203. It was just one of those nights. Go a little high and leave a 4, make an adjustment and ring a 10, make another adjustment and stone 9. Then shred the rack and everything spins around the 7. Rinse and repeat, lol. At least I converted all of them though.
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I know I will take a lot of heat for this but, ....
I must say I do not understand why this post is lingering.
There is the legal definition, according to the USBC and, then, there is the ego definition that so many have espoused:
that unless the 11th and 12th frames are clean, the game cannot be considered "clean".
They seem to take the more "ethical", the more "moral" high ground than the legal definition. I'm not sure if this makes them feel they are a better bowler or not. I just do not understand.
If you do feel this way, why not petition the USBC to change the definition; so we all can meet the same standards.
Personally I don't care what the definition is. While I'd like every frame to be clean, if the USBC says someone, I or anyone else, has one, so be it: they define the rules. It is the power we have given them.
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I know I will take a lot of heat for this but, ....
I must say I do not understand why this post is lingering.
There is the legal definition, according to the USBC and, then, there is the ego definition that so many have espoused:
that unless the 11th and 12th frames are clean, the game cannot be considered "clean".
They seem to take the more "ethical", the more "moral" high ground than the legal definition. I'm not sure if this makes them feel they are a better bowler or not. I just do not understand.
If you do feel this way, why not petition the USBC to change the definition; so we all can meet the same standards.
Personally I don't care what the definition is. While I'd like every frame to be clean, if the USBC says someone, I or anyone else, has one, so be it: they define the rules. It is the power we have given them.
I hear ya. Thrown a clean 185 and 205 (with reactives) in the last couple days so clean games are nice but sometimes its nice to string some strikes too.
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I know I will take a lot of heat for this but, ....
I must say I do not understand why this post is lingering.
There is the legal definition, according to the USBC and, then, there is the ego definition that so many have espoused:
that unless the 11th and 12th frames are clean, the game cannot be considered "clean".
They seem to take the more "ethical", the more "moral" high ground than the legal definition. I'm not sure if this makes them feel they are a better bowler or not. I just do not understand.
If you do feel this way, why not petition the USBC to change the definition; so we all can meet the same standards.
Personally I don't care what the definition is. While I'd like every frame to be clean, if the USBC says someone, I or anyone else, has one, so be it: they define the rules. It is the power we have given them.
You guys do you (I concede according to the USBC rules).....that doesn't bother me.
You're not winning shit on our team though with X9-. DOES NOT make me feel like a better bowler. I know you don't understand and I'm OK with that.
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For me it's simply no open frames. If in the 10th I go X 7-0 I don't consider a clean game or set. If I go X 7/ then I consider it clean.
XX 8 or anything else I consider clean.
^^^^This. The "moral" or "ethical" non-USBC rule (as defined by our team, and my personal value) I agree with.
Many can justify not converting on a spare opportunity however they choose.
Appeal to USBC rule book
For any event paying out you certainly need to specify what the requirements are in detail due to varying opinions.
+1
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2a. Definition
A game of American Tenpins consists of ten (10) frames. A player delivers two balls in each of the first
nine frames unless a strike is scored. In the 10th frame, a player delivers three balls if a strike or spare
is scored. Every frame must be completed by each player bowling in regular order.
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USBC then considers a clean game to be a strike or spare in each of the ten frames of a game.
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USBC then considers a clean game to be a strike or spare in each of the ten frames of a game.
I think everyone agrees that's what the USBC considers a clean game. No one has disputed that....you'll never see me say I had a clean night though if I go X9- even if I did by rule.
My "ego" has higher standards than that. :P ;D ;D
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9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!
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9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!
You're right. It makes no sense to call anything "clean" when you have two chances to knock all 10 pins down, and don't.
This appears to be one of those cases where the USBC waters down a standard to give more bowlers some sense of accomplishment.
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9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!
You're right. It makes no sense to call anything "clean" when you have two chances to knock all 10 pins down, and don't.
This appears to be one of those cases where the USBC waters down a standard to give more bowlers some sense of accomplishment.
Haven't you heard? Everyone is a winner!!!
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People still don't get it. Those extra balls are not frames. They are only there to fill the scoring requirements. Exactly why they are called FILL balls. There is not an 11th frame. There is not a 12th frame. If you strike, you get 2 bonus balls to add to that count. If you spare, you get one. You still closed the frame with a mark.
Yes, it is not going to make you fill good by missing that "spare". However, it isn't really considered a spare because you will never have a fill ball for it. You can have whatever rules you want for your own version of what is "clean", but USBC has it right. It should not be changed in their rules.
On another note, the requirement for a strike on the last fill ball is absurd any way you look at it. That, most definitely, should not take away from a clean game in any set of rules.
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People still don't get it. Those extra balls are not frames. They are only there to fill the scoring requirements. Exactly why they are called FILL balls. There is not an 11th frame. There is not a 12th frame. If you strike, you get 2 bonus balls to add to that count. If you spare, you get one. You still closed the frame with a mark.
Yes, it is not going to make you fill good by missing that "spare". However, it isn't really considered a spare because you will never have a fill ball for it. You can have whatever rules you want for your own version of what is "clean", but USBC has it right. It should not be changed in their rules.
On another note, the requirement for a strike on the last fill ball is absurd any way you look at it. That, most definitely, should not take away from a clean game in any set of rules.
True. Technically, if you strike the first shot in the 10th, you get 2 remaining fill balls. But the results are shown either as a mark or an open. It's not shown casually as "Fill#1" and "Fill#2".
I don't know why you reject the concept that if you have two chances to knock down 10 pins, you must do so to be considered clean. We've amended the USBC rule in our scratch league to require it. 220+ average bowlers shouldn't need help to win the clean series pot.
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You can have whatever rules you want for your own version of what is "clean", but USBC has it right. It should not be changed in their rules.
I don't know why you reject the concept that if you have two chances to knock down 10 pins, you must do so to be considered clean. We've amended the USBC rule in our scratch league to require it. 220+ average bowlers shouldn't need help to win the clean series pot.
Technically there is no actual usbc rulebook rule (look in the book) about what a "Clean Game" is, just like there's no set rule about what a spare leave might be called.
It's just a matter of what is in common usage, The one from the "Bowler's Guide" quoted by the USBC is just the one that's been around for years that is in common usage. That a game has ten frames and having at least one mark in each frame constitutes a clean game.
Now if a Tournament or League specifies some other definition for some pot payoff that's fine, Just remember it doesn't apply everywhere.
and if you happen to win a clean game pot that uses a different definition than what your ethic's dictate, Make sure you stand up for your ethics and turn down the prize money. (Which of course we know nobody would do.)
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You can call it anything you want. If I go 30 clean in nationals I will take my money while anyone is free to tell my how watered down the accomplishment is. Cant believe a thread runs this long on a case of semantics. I don't like it when I miss a pin either, but I am a lot more upset when it comes on a ball that costs me a mark rather than a pin or two of count.
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and if you happen to win a clean game pot that uses a different definition than what your ethic's dictate, Make sure you stand up for your ethics and turn down the prize money. (Which of course we know nobody would do.)
Wouldn't it be more logical to not enter as opposed to enter and return the money?
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If I go 30 clean in nationals I will take my money while anyone is free to tell my how watered down the accomplishment is.
I won't say anything about your accomplishment.
I'd take my money to (as I've satisfied the criteria in that tournament) and tell you how watered down mine is (and was as I've won that 30 clean) though if it had X9-! ;D
To be fair though my 30 clean was 30 clean according to my personal (and several other excellent bowlers here) definition.
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9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!
You're right. It makes no sense to call anything "clean" when you have two chances to knock all 10 pins down, and don't.
This appears to be one of those cases where the USBC waters down a standard to give more bowlers some sense of accomplishment.
Haven't you heard? Everyone is a winner!!!
So where are my sprinkles? ???
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9- is not clean, no matter where it is. If you're given a chance to pick the spare and don't, you isn't clean!!
You're right. It makes no sense to call anything "clean" when you have two chances to knock all 10 pins down, and don't.
This appears to be one of those cases where the USBC waters down a standard to give more bowlers some sense of accomplishment.
Haven't you heard? Everyone is a winner!!!
So where are my sprinkles? ???
Pm me your shipping address. I got you, bro.
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Using 30 clean as a measure of accomplishment is fine if that is what you want.
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Good conversation - I initially read the thread and said "Well obviously you must fill when you have the opportunity", but Jaz is right. They truly are fill balls to get a complete score. However, that's the point. You have to finish the game. I'm reminded of the World Bowling Tour finals when Dom Barrett was awarded 300 for 10 strikes in their "experimental" system... That didn't feel like a 300 to him, or probably to anyone. Is it just our conditioning or are the last two strikes "fill balls".
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Bottom line, would you rather blow a 10 pin in the 9th, or on your count ball in the 10th.
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Bottom line, would you rather blow a 10 pin in the 9th, or on your count ball in the 10th.
The answer is obvious, but that's not the real question.
Is a game really clean if you have 2 chances to knock down all ten pins, and fail??
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so then the front eleven followed by a nine count is not a clean game??
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so then the front eleven followed by a nine count is not a clean game??
Are you allowed to shoot at the remaining pin?
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point taken, but others on this post said if you went 9 then spare last ball needed to be a strike?
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point taken, but others on this post said if you went 9 then spare last ball needed to be a strike?
It depends on how "pure" you want to take the definition. Personally (for me), unless I see a strike or spare on every possible shot, I don't consider the game clean. That means if I throw a spare in the tenth and follow with a 9 count, then no clean game.
This purist definition rubs a lot of bowlers the wrong way, so it will never be a generally accepted definition. But to me, it's a no brainer to require all 10 pins to be knocked down if you have 2 chances to do so. Otherwise, the game isn't really all that clean, even if the failure is in the 10th.
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when you go to Nats the have a side bet clean 30 not 36 so 30 frames or any game with 10 clean frames in it should be considered clean no opens.
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Brooklyn's count the same as flush strikes. Pocket 7-10 punishes you more than a beaker that caves in the right side leaving a single pin. Nothing wrong with being s purist, but the USBC is logical even if it doesn't meet the purist standards.
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I hold myself to higher standards. :)
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Bowlers can hold themselves to higher standards. But to insist the USBC perception of a clean game is incorrect and impose a different set of rules is another thing. It is getting to the point where everyone is so divisive in their perceptions that anything that differs is wrong.
Ten clean frames is wrong?
Using two hands is wrong?
Lofting the gutters is wrong?
House shots are wrong?
Next thing you know if you throw a Brooklyn it doesn't count as a strike, you know, due to "integrity of the game." Pins bouncing out of the back to pick up splits is against the "integrity of the game." Not using urethane is against the "integrity of the game."
It is getting out of hand. Bowlers can no longer allow each other to enjoy the game the way they want without being bombarded with condemnation for not following some inane know-it-all telling them they are wrong.
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So you walk up to a guy who just shot 299 at Nationals to finish a 30 clean set. You tell him that the 9 count fill cost him his 30 clean. REALLY?
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So you walk up to a guy who just shot 299 at Nationals to finish a 30 clean set. You tell him that the 9 count fill cost him his 30 clean. REALLY?
To me that's clean as he doesn't have an opportunity to spare up.
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Bowlers can hold themselves to higher standards. But to insist the USBC perception of a clean game is incorrect and impose a different set of rules is another thing. It is getting to the point where everyone is so divisive in their perceptions that anything that differs is wrong.
There is no need to take things to the extreme. It's just a discussion. Of course you go with whatever rules are established at a specific event. Still, there is no harm in exploring a little deeper. Things never change unless you have the courage to examine. For any rule that can't stand up to the scrutiny of a simple discussion, it's fair to question it's validity.
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So you walk up to a guy who just shot 299 at Nationals to finish a 30 clean set. You tell him that the 9 count fill cost him his 30 clean. REALLY?
To me that's clean as he doesn't have an opportunity to spare up.
Exactly. But if you have 2 opportunities to knock all 10 pins down and fail, why would anyone want credit for clean?? That's what doesn't make sense.
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So you walk up to a guy who just shot 299 at Nationals to finish a 30 clean set. You tell him that the 9 count fill cost him his 30 clean. REALLY?
To me that's clean as he doesn't have an opportunity to spare up.
Exactly. But if you have 2 opportunities to knock all 10 pins down and fail, why would anyone want credit for clean?? That's what doesn't make sense.
^^^^^^^ agree. I'm only counting as not clean frames where 2 attempts to knock down 10 pins isn't successful. If I tell myself X81 is clean, EVEN IF BY RULE, I don't feel as if I'm being honest with myself.
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Bowlers can hold themselves to higher standards. But to insist the USBC perception of a clean game is incorrect and impose a different set of rules is another thing. It is getting to the point where everyone is so divisive in their perceptions that anything that differs is wrong.
It's not that you're "wrong", I just hold myself to a higher standard than the written rule.
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It's not that you're "wrong", I just hold myself to a higher standard than the written rule.
As long as you're only using your definition for yourself make it whatever you want. Define a clean game as 12 strikes, that's fine so long as it's just for you. -- JohnP
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It's not that you're "wrong", I just hold myself to a higher standard than the written rule.
As long as you're only using your definition for yourself make it whatever you want. Define a clean game as 12 strikes, that's fine so long as it's just for you. -- JohnP
And where in that statement did he say anything else?
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"This ain't bowling!!"
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"This ain't bowling!!"
"back in my day, we walked 12 miles to the bowling alley in a blizzard, without shoes and shot 770 on a very tough shot"
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"This ain't bowling!!"
"back in my day, we walked 12 miles to the bowling alley in a blizzard, without shoes and shot 770 on a very tough shot"
While setting up our own pins and picking the splinters out of our hands from our wooden balls!
AND WE LIKED IT, DAGNABBIT!!
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It is getting out of hand. Bowlers can no longer allow each other to enjoy the game the way they want without being bombarded with condemnation for not following some inane know-it-all telling them they are wrong.
Interesting quote above. We have come to the point in our society that we condemn those that want "higher standards".
What is getting "out of hand" is that people NEVER foul anymore. Oh, no one saw it but the foul light went off and a foot is turned to the side; take the foul of the score board and give the bowler the pin count. Even though, that was the only time the foul light "malfunctioned".
Sorry for the high jack, LOL!
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As long as you're only using your definition for yourself make it whatever you want. Define a clean game as 12 strikes, that's fine so long as it's just for you. -- JohnP
The rule book says that Glenn Allison's 900 wasn't legal. If the rule book is so correct, why do so may people believe that he should get credit for it?? Just because it is how a particular rule is written, doesn't make it right or correct. Just sayin
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It is getting out of hand. Bowlers can no longer allow each other to enjoy the game the way they want without being bombarded with condemnation for not following some inane know-it-all telling them they are wrong.
Interesting quote above. We have come to the point in our society that we condemn those that want "higher standards".
What is getting "out of hand" is that people NEVER foul anymore. Oh, no one saw it but the foul light went off and a foot is turned to the side; take the foul of the score board and give the bowler the pin count. Even though, that was the only time the foul light "malfunctioned".
Sorry for the high jack, LOL!
Wanting higher standards is fine, it is imposing so called higher standards on others who are going by established rules.
Exactly. But if you have 2 opportunities to knock all 10 pins down and fail, why would anyone want credit for clean?? That's what doesn't make sense.
The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others. Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is. Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
To be honest, when I found out the way USBC enforces this "rule", I was surprised. I too felt you had to have a clean 11th frame to justify a clean game. However, if someone asks me what the "rule" is, I will tell them X9- in the tenth counts as clean. They can perceive it any way they want.
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It is getting out of hand. Bowlers can no longer allow each other to enjoy the game the way they want without being bombarded with condemnation for not following some inane know-it-all telling them they are wrong.
Interesting quote above. We have come to the point in our society that we condemn those that want "higher standards".
What is getting "out of hand" is that people NEVER foul anymore. Oh, no one saw it but the foul light went off and a foot is turned to the side; take the foul of the score board and give the bowler the pin count. Even though, that was the only time the foul light "malfunctioned".
Sorry for the high jack, LOL!
Wanting higher standards is fine, it is imposing so called higher standards on others who are going by established rules.
Exactly. But if you have 2 opportunities to knock all 10 pins down and fail, why would anyone want credit for clean?? That's what doesn't make sense.
The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others. Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is. Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
To be honest, when I found out the way USBC enforces this "rule", I was surprised. I too felt you had to have a clean 11th frame to justify a clean game. However, if someone asks me what the "rule" is, I will tell them X9- in the tenth counts as clean. They can perceive it any way they want.
The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others. Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is. Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
To be honest, when I found out the way USBC enforces this "rule", I was surprised. I too felt you had to have a clean 11th frame to justify a clean game. However, if someone asks me what the "rule" is, I will tell them X9- in the tenth counts as clean. They can perceive it any way they want.
Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.
And with that said, where do you stand on Glenn Allisions 900 series? Should it count because the rule is a bad rule; or so sad too bad, those were the rules, so no soup for you?
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I think that anyone who eats celery is stupid. :o
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I think that anyone who eats celery is stupid. :o
What about celery with cream cheese or peanut butter on it? You can't deny that's tasty.
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I think that anyone who eats celery is stupid. :o
What about celery with cream cheese or peanut butter on it? You can't deny that's tasty.
Oh yes I can.
Here is the math; celery=stupid 8)
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I think that anyone who eats celery is stupid. :o
What about celery with cream cheese or peanut butter on it? You can't deny that's tasty.
Oh yes I can.
Here is the math; celery=stupid 8)
#iggylist
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I think that anyone who eats celery is stupid. :o
What about celery with cream cheese or peanut butter on it? You can't deny that's tasty.
Oh yes I can.
Here is the math; celery=stupid 8)
#iggylist
oh no you didn't :o
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I think that anyone who eats celery is stupid. :o
What about celery with cream cheese or peanut butter on it? You can't deny that's tasty.
Oh yes I can.
Here is the math; celery=stupid 8)
#iggylist
oh no you didn't :o
LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!
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Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.
Thanks for stating what should be obvious to anyone participating in the thread. I don't know why this is so perplexing to some.
The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others. Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is. Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
Wow. It's hard to know where to start with this. You either have a problem with reading comprehension, or you're intentionally being dishonest about what I've posted. "My way of thinking" is sincerely asking why it shouldn't be required to knock down 10 pins with 2 balls, even in the 10th, to be awarded a clean game. If your best answer is to blindly support a rule without providing any justification, why bother? It doesn't add anything to the conversation.
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The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others. Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is. Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
Wow. It's hard to know where to start with this. You either have a problem with reading comprehension, or you're intentionally being dishonest about what I've posted. "My way of thinking" is sincerely asking why it shouldn't be required to knock down 10 pins with 2 balls, even in the 10th, to be awarded a clean game. If your best answer is to blindly support a rule without providing any justification, why bother? It doesn't add anything to the conversation.
Here is why I brought up Glenn Allison.
Everyone should probably be able to agree, that in 1982 when Glenn rolled his 900 series, it was much, much, much harder to strike, let alone string strikes, and subsequently, make spares. There were only a handful of options to use for bowling balls, and there wasn't a huge difference between those balls. If a rule that history has shown, just doesn't make sense based on how the game is played today, it's only logical to look at updating a rule, or at minimal be understanding to why a rule is in place. This brings me to the one mark rule of the tenth frame. Back when the rule was originally written (not sure how long ago, but I'm sure it's been many many years written as such), because strikes were fewer and further between, being able to at least throw the first strike in the tenth WAS an accomplishment, and could be rewarded as such. People want to use 1950's standards for achievements, while bowling in the current environment. Give everyone a trophy I guess.
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Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.
It is in frame 10 as well! However, there is no frame 11 or 12. Those are FILL balls to FILL the requirements of the first mark in the 10th. How is this not hard to understand? You cannot fill the second "spare" or the second/third strike. They are simply shots to add to the first mark. The rule makes perfect sense as it is written.
Again, missing the "spare" is not something to feel good about, but you'll never be able to fill it anyway.
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Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.
It is in frame 10 as well! However, there is no frame 11 or 12. Those are FILL balls to FILL the requirements of the first mark in the 10th. How is this not hard to understand? You cannot fill the second "spare" or the second/third strike. They are simply shots to add to the first mark. The rule makes perfect sense as it is written.
Again, missing the "spare" is not something to feel good about, but you'll never be able to fill it anyway.
If they were only "fill balls" as you are stating then the second strike wouldn't count as 20 or any type of pin count add into the 9th frame, if there was a 9th frame strike. Two "fill balls" after striking the first ball of the tenth, would only count 10, and 10, if strikes. That is where calling it fills balls, breaks down.
If the second shot of the tenth was only meaningful to filling the tenth frame only, then I could agree with you. Since the "12th ball" doesn't count any where but to the total "fill of the frame", then not striking on the "12th ball" after throwing the first two of the tenth or making a spare, makes sense, to call it a fill ball, and not be required to knock all ten down to "fill" the frame and be a clean game.
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Again, those of you who feel good about X52 and count it as clean by appealing to the written rule, you all do you and feel good about it.
I'm just saying if I go X52, I'm not telling you I threw a clean game. Oh and you lose the $ on my team.
#HighStandards
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Again, those of you who feel good about X52 and count it as clean by appealing to the written rule, you all do you and feel good about it.
I'm just saying if I go X52, I'm not telling you I threw a clean game. Oh and you lose the $ on my team.
#HighStandards
Same thing goes for my team. If you are anchor bowler #5 and roll a 299, be prepared to have your 5 dollars travel to bowler #1, even if bowler #1 shot a 132.
And if you're gonna break out the rule book over $5 then we'll probably kick you off the team.
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Again, those of you who feel good about X52 and count it as clean by appealing to the written rule, you all do you and feel good about it.
I'm just saying if I go X52, I'm not telling you I threw a clean game. Oh and you lose the $ on my team.
#HighStandards
Same thing goes for my team. If you are anchor bowler #5 and roll a 299, be prepared to have your 5 dollars travel to bowler #1, even if bowler #1 shot a 132.
And if you're gonna break out the rule book over $5 then we'll probably kick you off the team.
Well, to be fair, if you double in the 10th, as long as you get count, you win on our team. 9/9 gets you paid, X9/ gets you paid.
It's just when you have two attempts to clear all 10 that "cleanliness" ( :P ) becomes an issue.
You guys are tough but if everyone agrees to that caveat all is well.
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Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.
Thanks for stating what should be obvious to anyone participating in the thread. I don't know why this is so perplexing to some.
The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others. Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is. Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
Wow. It's hard to know where to start with this. You either have a problem with reading comprehension, or you're intentionally being dishonest about what I've posted. "My way of thinking" is sincerely asking why it shouldn't be required to knock down 10 pins with 2 balls, even in the 10th, to be awarded a clean game. If your best answer is to blindly support a rule without providing any justification, why bother? It doesn't add anything to the conversation.
Not once did I say your point of view "makes no sense" (your words). Not once did I say your view can't be followed by those that feel the same.
The key thing to this discussion and what I feel makes the difference is bowling is comprised of 10 frames. USBC allows marks in each of the 10 frames to be considered clean; not 11 frames. Requiring strike spare in the tenth requires 11 marks in 10 frames.
I get it. I was surprised to find out USBCs requirement thinking it was incorrect. But the more I thought about it, I was okay with it. Everyone doesn't have to be and if they feel the current way is incorrect, then propose a change. Many on this thread have stated they use different rules for their teams or leagues. That is fine. I don't really have a game or situation where the definition of a clean game is used. So for me, going X9- pisses me off. I just don't think how I feel should affect the definition since I understand the definition as it is today.
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Going X 9- only pisses me off if I lose by one pin
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Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.
It is in frame 10 as well! However, there is no frame 11 or 12. Those are FILL balls to FILL the requirements of the first mark in the 10th. How is this not hard to understand? You cannot fill the second "spare" or the second/third strike. They are simply shots to add to the first mark. The rule makes perfect sense as it is written.
Again, missing the "spare" is not something to feel good about, but you'll never be able to fill it anyway.
If they were only "fill balls" as you are stating then the second strike wouldn't count as 20 or any type of pin count add into the 9th frame, if there was a 9th frame strike. Two "fill balls" after striking the first ball of the tenth, would only count 10, and 10, if strikes. That is where calling it fills balls, breaks down.
If the second shot of the tenth was only meaningful to filling the tenth frame only, then I could agree with you. Since the "12th ball" doesn't count any where but to the total "fill of the frame", then not striking on the "12th ball" after throwing the first two of the tenth or making a spare, makes sense, to call it a fill ball, and not be required to knock all ten down to "fill" the frame and be a clean game.
If you strike in the 9th, then the 2nd ball in the 10th FILLS the 2 ball scoring requirement for the strike in the 9th. It also FILLS the 1st (of 2) balls for the 1st strike in the 10th. I think you don't get it, still.
The 2nd and 3rd strikes in the 10th are never filled. NEVER. Neither is a spare (after striking first in the 10th). Still just FILL balls. You will never add pins to any of those "marks".
I don't think anyone is suggesting that you will feel good about not cleaning up the "spare" that is left. However, it still doesn't change the definition of clean, nor should it.
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Damn if bowlers don't love to argue... ::)
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Damn if bowlers don't love to argue... ::)
I feel like arguing this comment. You're wrong. We don't like it!
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A clean game with a Brooklyn strike is not a clean game!!!
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Damn if bowlers don't love to argue... ::)
I feel like arguing this comment. You're wrong. We don't like it!
Ya huh! Do so... :P
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If you strike in the 9th, then the 2nd ball in the 10th FILLS the 2 ball scoring requirement for the strike in the 9th. It also FILLS the 1st (of 2) balls for the 1st strike in the 10th. I think you don't get it, still.
The 2nd and 3rd strikes in the 10th are never filled. NEVER. Neither is a spare (after striking first in the 10th). Still just FILL balls. You will never add pins to any of those "marks".
I don't think anyone is suggesting that you will feel good about not cleaning up the "spare" that is left. However, it still doesn't change the definition of clean, nor should it.
It has nothing to do with "getting" anything. I understand what you are trying to say, I don't agree with you. Two very different things.
On what page of the official USBC rule book, does it define a "clean game"? On what page of the rule book does it call a second delivery of a frame, a "fill ball"?
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/2017-2018Rulebook.pdf
Thanks.
Here is also a link to all special awards. Please show me where the USBC defines and awards a "clean game or series". There is an all spare game award, but I don't see the clean game award.
Again, thanks.
http://read.dmtmag.com/i/788385-special-achievement-awards-volume-4
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If you strike in the 9th, then the 2nd ball in the 10th FILLS the 2 ball scoring requirement for the strike in the 9th. It also FILLS the 1st (of 2) balls for the 1st strike in the 10th. I think you don't get it, still.
The 2nd and 3rd strikes in the 10th are never filled. NEVER. Neither is a spare (after striking first in the 10th). Still just FILL balls. You will never add pins to any of those "marks".
I don't think anyone is suggesting that you will feel good about not cleaning up the "spare" that is left. However, it still doesn't change the definition of clean, nor should it.
It has nothing to do with "getting" anything. I understand what you are trying to say, I don't agree with you. Two very different things.
On what page of the official USBC rule book, does it define a "clean game"? On what page of the rule book does it call a second delivery of a frame, a "fill ball"?
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/2017-2018Rulebook.pdf
Thanks.
The rule book may not define a clean game, but it does define the game as having 10 frames, not 11 or 12. Thus, 10 marks in 10 frames is a clean game and USBC does recognize it as such.
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The rule book may not define a clean game, but it does define the game as having 10 frames, not 11 or 12. Thus, 10 marks in 10 frames is a clean game and USBC does recognize it as such.
And again I will ask you, do you stand by the USBC's decision to stand behind their "rules", and not "recognize" Glenn Allison's 900 series?
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The rule book may not define a clean game, but it does define the game as having 10 frames, not 11 or 12. Thus, 10 marks in 10 frames is a clean game and USBC does recognize it as such.
And again I will ask you, do you stand by the USBC's decision to stand behind their "rules", and not "recognize" Glenn Allison's 900 series?
If you are asking me should USBC reverse course and approve Glenn Allison's 900, I would say no. Do I think he deserves something, yes. My father had a 300 turned down because of heavy pins. Does that make any sense at all?
To be honest, if we approved award scores in the same manner we did in 1982, then I would bet many wouldn't get approved. But we live with the rules we have and no matter how fair or unfair they may seem, they are the rules.
It is clear there are many here that feel the clean game definition is controversial. I am surprised this thread has generated as much discussion.
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Clean game argument and Allison's 900 are totally different issues. There is no need to defineva clean game except in the individual event situation where there is some special award. In that situation a clean game is whatever the individual definition defines it.
In Allison's case his 900 was thrown out under an ABC lane conditioning rule. The fact that the rule was applied in an arbitrary and capricious manner, and without adequate technical measurement methodology is what makes so many if us disappointed
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Clean game argument and Allison's 900 are totally different issues. There is no need to defineva clean game except in the individual event situation where there is some special award. In that situation a clean game is whatever the individual definition defines it.
In Allison's case his 900 was thrown out under an ABC lane conditioning rule. The fact that the rule was applied in an arbitrary and capricious manner, and without adequate technical measurement methodology is what makes so many if us disappointed
Here is my point about why I brought up the 900.
First off, it's about agreeing to the rules as written, and just accepting them, as stated. I think rules need to change as the environment changes. Example, 35 years ago, there really wasn't a need to have a rule in place to limit a handicapped game to only 300, however, in today's environment, we needed to change that rule.
Second, both are "achievements" of the individual nature, so it's not that far off from each other.
It's about comparing an "accomplishment" that was much harder to achieve 35 years ago then it is today, based on the bowling environment. As stated above, rules need to be current and with the times. If using the same ball and bowled today, Glenn's 900 would be accepted because they don't check the lanes after every single award score shot.
40 years ago, I can understand saying a "clean game" consists of one mark in every frame. But not in today's environment that is so much easier to strike and use balls that go so much straighter for spares.
Probably why there is only an all spare award from usbc, and not a clean game award. There is a glaring flaw in the logic.
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It's amazing this thread has gone on so long, arguing about a USBC clean game "rule" that doesn't actually exist in the rulebook.
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I said the same thing about 59 posts ago, but I am as guilty as anyone for perpetuating the thing. I only posted this time because of Allison being brought in to the thread. Here is what a clean game means to me. I would rather have a 205 with two blows than a clean 204 game
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A game is defined as 10 frames.
We speak of the 11th frames and the 12th frames solely as matter of convenience and reference. There is no such thing as an 11th frame or a 12th frame in the bowling of reality as defined by the rules we use to play. Whether the rules are defined by the ABC, the USBC or whatever committee whose members are only human, and as such, are full of frailty and flaws. To be human is to be flawed. If you don't like the rules, petition the organization to change the rules; otherwise, play by them and accept them.
As such, any clean game has a mark in each of 10 frames. Period.
If your ego has to be defined to be beyond that of the rest of us humans, that is the cross you have to bear.
For myself, and I'd bet, many other bowlers, whenever we fail to knock down as many pins as we feel we should, we do suffer under our own conscience silently; we do not publicize it and claim, "They gave me a clean game, but I don't really deserve one."
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In frames 1-9, only one possible strike per frame.
In "frame" 10, 3 possible strikes.
Relating them to each other is like comparing a Hyundai with a Porsche. Yeah, they are both "cars", but very different.
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In frames 1-9, only one possible strike per frame.
In "frame" 10, 3 possible strikes.
Relating them to each other is like comparing a Hyundai with a Porsche. Yeah, they are both "cars", but very different.
Exactly. The notion that all frames are created equal is false.
Assuming there was an official clean game definition, having a rule that says in any situation where the bowler has two chances to knock down 10 pins, the bowler must do so for the game to be considered "clean".
It seems to be a simpler and more consistent way of looking at it.
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Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot. I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response: The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame. If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled. The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.
Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.
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Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot. I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response: The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame. If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled. The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.
Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.
#LowerStandardsatUSBCOpen
Again if I go 29 clean, then X81 in the 10th of the 3rd game. That's good enough to collect the $ there by rule.
But you'll never hear me say shit about being 30 clean unless it's by my definition.
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^^LMAO
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Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot. I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response: The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame. If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled. The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.
Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.
#LowerStandardsatUSBCOpen
Again if I go 29 clean, then X81 in the 10th of the 3rd game. That's good enough to collect the $ there by rule.
But you'll never hear me say shit about being 30 clean unless it's by my definition.
If I get my money, you can call it whatever you want.
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Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot. I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response: The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame. If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled. The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.
Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.
#LowerStandardsatUSBCOpen
Again if I go 29 clean, then X81 in the 10th of the 3rd game. That's good enough to collect the $ there by rule.
But you'll never hear me say shit about being 30 clean unless it's by my definition.
If I get my money, you can call it whatever you want.
Truth, at USBC Open get your money!
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Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot. I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response: The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame. If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled. The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.
Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.
Good information. It appears that at some point the ABC/USBC made a decision to treat the beginning of the tenth just like frames 1-9.
But there is at least one problem I see with this:
USBC rules seem to recognize the concept of an open after an initial strike in the 10th:
2g. Open
An open is recorded when a player fails to knock down all 10 pins after two deliveries in a frame.
I could be interpreting this wrong as it would relate to a strike with the first ball in the 10th, followed by an open in the "11th". But it appears to apply. The rule does not specifically say the first two deliveries in a frame. And we know from keeping score that the "11th" would show an open.
Even if the USBC wants to ignore the fictitious "11th", it doesn't negate the reality that you might still need 2 shots to knock down all 10 pins before the game is complete, and finally declare the game "clean". Maybe this is one of those situations where logic just doesn't apply.
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You are missing one small point. There are only 10 frames in a game. The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws. If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw. If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws. Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
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You are missing one small point. There are only 10 frames in a game. The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws. If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw. If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws. Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?
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You are missing one small point. There are only 10 frames in a game. The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws. If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw. If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws. Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?
2g just says its open if you dont knock down 10 pins in a frame.
So if you knock down at least 10 pins in the tenth frame, its not a open frame.
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You are missing one small point. There are only 10 frames in a game. The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws. If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw. If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws. Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?
Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.
The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.
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You are missing one small point. There are only 10 frames in a game. The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws. If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw. If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws. Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?
Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.
The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.
Calling the extra shots " fill balls" is as much of a made up term as calling it the 11th and 12th frames. Can't have it both ways. Besides, I usually hear them called 11th and 12th balls, rarely have I heard them called frames, but for the sake of the argument...
Rules book clearly refers to shots as deliveries.
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Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.
The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.
The 10th frame is "special", or at least different, because you have the potential for 3 deliveries instead of just 2. So a frame is not a frame. If you do a search in the rules book, you'll not get a hit on "fill". It's simply not there.
I understand the rationale for artificially finishing the game, for the purposes of "clean", after the first 2 deliveries in the 10th. The scoring designers wanted to make all frames equal in determining clean. Again, I get that. In competition, you accept the definition, go with it, and congratulate anyone who gets an award or makes money accomplishing it. I always have and always will.
But the fact is that the game isn't over after making a strike with the first delivery in the 10th. The game has 2 deliveries left. Those deliveries conclude with either a mark or an open. If you can't knock down all 10 pins with those final 2 deliveries, you really haven't reached the finish line without a blemish. Hopefully, the most extreme example of finishing with 2 gutter balls and being considered clean should drive that point home.
To those who addressed rule 2g, thanks for the clarification. In reading, it's not 100% clear if it applies to any 2 consecutive deliveries in the 10th, or just to the first two. After all this discussion, I'm guessing it's just the first two.
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You are missing one small point. There are only 10 frames in a game. The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws. If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw. If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws. Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?
Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.
The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.
Calling the extra shots " fill balls" is as much of a made up term as calling it the 11th and 12th frames. Can't have it both ways. Besides, I usually hear them called 11th and 12th balls, rarely have I heard them called frames, but for the sake of the argument...
Rules book clearly refers to shots as deliveries.
While fill balls is clearly a term for those shots/deliveries, it is much more valid, conceptually speaking, than is the term, 11th or 12th frame, since that violates the definition of a "game".
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Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.
The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.
The 10th frame is "special", or at least different, because you have the potential for 3 deliveries instead of just 2. So a frame is not a frame. If you do a search in the rules book, you'll not get a hit on "fill". It's simply not there.
I understand the rationale for artificially finishing the game, for the purposes of "clean", after the first 2 deliveries in the 10th. The scoring designers wanted to make all frames equal in determining clean. Again, I get that. In competition, you accept the definition, go with it, and congratulate anyone who gets an award or makes money accomplishing it. I always have and always will.
But the fact is that the game isn't over after making a strike with the first delivery in the 10th. The game has 2 deliveries left. Those deliveries conclude with either a mark or an open. If you can't knock down all 10 pins with those final 2 deliveries, you really haven't reached the finish line without a blemish. Hopefully, the most extreme example of finishing with 2 gutter balls and being considered clean should drive that point home.
To those who addressed rule 2g, thanks for the clarification. In reading, it's not 100% clear if it applies to any 2 consecutive deliveries in the 10th, or just to the first two. After all this discussion, I'm guessing it's just the first two.
I agree. I think that is what we are all stumbling over here, bascially because the rules have not given a way to reference the 3rd ball/shot/delivery after a spare in the 10th, or the 2nd and 3rd ball/shot/delivery after a strike int he 10th frame.
Those "deliveries" are required to complete the game. We need something either official/legal or we need to agree to a term or terms to describe them, to which everyone can agree.
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You are missing one small point. There are only 10 frames in a game. The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws. If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw. If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws. Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?
Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.
The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.
Calling the extra shots " fill balls" is as much of a made up term as calling it the 11th and 12th frames. Can't have it both ways. Besides, I usually hear them called 11th and 12th balls, rarely have I heard them called frames, but for the sake of the argument...
Rules book clearly refers to shots as deliveries.
While fill balls is clearly a term for those shots/deliveries, it is much more valid, conceptually speaking, than is the term, 11th or 12th frame, since that violates the definition of a "game".
I will agree with your statement in theory, however, I've seen plenty of 12th frame pro shops, 11th frame lounges, 12th frame snack bars, etc..... I have yet to see one fill ball lounge, lol. Right or wrong, 11th or 12th frame is a more commonly accepted and universally used made up phrase to indicate those extra deliveries in the tenth.
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Fill Ball Lounge would be a good name for a band. :D
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Fill Ball Lounge would be a good name for a band. :D
Could be a true double entadre. 8)
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I have seen a lot of 19th hole golf course lounges too. Here's the thing. There is a reason you don't fund clean gsne defined in the rule book, just as you don't see Brooklyn, Dutch 2000, and other idioms of the game. If you get your satisfaction from filing the 10th with a strike and spare, great. Of course that is marginally better than a strike and 9 out. Personally I am a lot more disappointed in not getting the second strike than in covering the remaining spare.
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I have seen a lot of 19th hole golf course lounges too. Here's the thing. There is a reason you don't fund clean gsne defined in the rule book, just as you don't see Brooklyn, Dutch 2000, and other idioms of the game. If you get your satisfaction from filing the 10th with a strike and spare, great. Of course that is marginally better than a strike and 9 out. Personally I am a lot more disappointed in not getting the second strike than in covering the remaining spare.
But in golf, the 18th hole doesn't have any special or specific unto it alone, rules, like the 10th frame of bowling. Two very different things. 18th hole rules are the exact same as all the other holes on the course; all based on the par of the individual hole.
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Somebody get me out of this rabbit hole. I can't seem to help myself!
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You are missing one small point. There are only 10 frames in a game. The 10th frame consists of one frame plus one or possibly 2 bonus throws. If you mark with a spare in the 10th, then you get one bonus throw. If you mark with a strike in the 10th, then you get 2 bonus throws. Bonus throws do not count toward the clean game.
If you get the first strike in the 10th, the frame continues with two additional shots. If you fail to knock down all 10 pins with the next two shots, isn't that an open according to rule 2g?
Is there now a special definition to the 10th frame? I was not aware of that.
The frame does not, as near as I can tell, continue. They are not called "fill" balls for nothing. You're "fulflling" the 10th frame in which you are entitled to the count garnered by the fall of 1 or 2 more balls, as the case may be. It is not the "11"th frame, which does not truly exist. You are just finding out how many extra pins you will get as a bonus for your mark in the 10th frame, the last "frame" of the game.
Calling the extra shots " fill balls" is as much of a made up term as calling it the 11th and 12th frames. Can't have it both ways. Besides, I usually hear them called 11th and 12th balls, rarely have I heard them called frames, but for the sake of the argument...
Rules book clearly refers to shots as deliveries.
While fill balls is clearly a term for those shots/deliveries, it is much more valid, conceptually speaking, than is the term, 11th or 12th frame, since that violates the definition of a "game".
I will agree with your statement in theory, however, I've seen plenty of 12th frame pro shops, 11th frame lounges, 12th frame snack bars, etc..... I have yet to see one fill ball lounge, lol. Right or wrong, 11th or 12th frame is a more commonly accepted and universally used made up phrase to indicate those extra deliveries in the tenth.
Someone starts something and people adopt it, right or wrong. It does make it correct. It makes it popular. Heck, the majority of older bowlers still think it is wrong to be able to clean your ball with anything during bowling. Does that make it right?
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Someone starts something and people adopt it, right or wrong. It does make it correct. It makes it popular. Heck, the majority of older bowlers still think it is wrong to be able to clean your ball with anything during bowling. Does that make it right?
There is a specific rule that says you can't use certain products to clean your bowling balls during competition, and certain products you can use.
There is no rule that says what you can or can't call the extra delivery made available because of a mark in the tenth.
#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
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#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
I like this......
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#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
[/quote]
Well if the dashes on the scoreboard are small enough then maybe nobody will see them. ;)
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#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
I like this......
It does kind of drive the point home..... ;D
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I nominate Jazlar to be President of the #StrikeGutterGutterIsClean club.... ;D :P
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#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
I like this......
It does kind of drive the point home..... ;D
I can't take full credit, as it was inspired by one of your earlier posts.
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If we had a side pot going on clean games and I rolled ((I mean delivered)) 9 clean frames followed by the first strike in the 10th and then said, "hey guys I'm gonna roll, ((I mean deliver)) 2 gutter balls so I can guarantee winning the side pot" I would probably get my ass kicked or at least receive a profanity laced verbal hazing every single night for the rest of the season.
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Okay if we want to haggle over the 10 frame, how about the all spare game? The way a lot of you are looking at the tenth frame, The all spare game is impossible.
You got the front 9 spares,in the 10th frame you go [9/X] or [9/-] or [9/count]
A all spare game is all spares, If you got a strike, count or a miss in the game then you don't have all spares.
Morally you can't accept a all spare award because you know you didn't do it, regardless of how a all spare game is defined.
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Okay if we want to haggle over the 10 frame, how about the all spare game? The way a lot of you are looking at the tenth frame, The all spare game is impossible.
You got the front 9 spares,in the 10th frame you go [9/X] or [9/-] or [9/count]
A all spare game is all spares, If you got a strike, count or a miss in the game then you don't have all spares.
Morally you can't accept a all spare award because you know you didn't do it, regardless of how a all spare game is defined.
It's actually completely consistent.
An all spare game, by definition, is a where you get a spare every time you have exactly two deliveries to knock down all ten pins. In your examples, there is only one delivery remaining -- the very last shot. Since the bowler doesn't have two deliveries remaining, and he's achieved a spare on every other opportunity, it's an all spare game.
It's the same concept with a true clean game. The game is clean if you knock down all ten pins every time there are two deliveries. That's why 11 strikes in a row followed by a 9 count is still clean. The bowler didn't have two deliveries renaming at the end of the game.
Make sense??
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I can't believe we have 9 pages on this subject! If you're in any kind of a contest a clean game is defined in the rules, if you're not in a contest you can use any definition you want to. -- JohnP
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Okay if we want to haggle over the 10 frame, how about the all spare game? The way a lot of you are looking at the tenth frame, The all spare game is impossible.
You got the front 9 spares,in the 10th frame you go [9/X] or [9/-] or [9/count]
A all spare game is all spares, If you got a strike, count or a miss in the game then you don't have all spares.
Morally you can't accept a all spare award because you know you didn't do it, regardless of how a all spare game is defined.
It's actually completely consistent.
An all spare game, by definition, is a where you get a spare every time you have exactly two deliveries to knock down all ten pins. In your examples, there is only one delivery remaining -- the very last shot. Since the bowler doesn't have two deliveries remaining, and he's achieved a spare on every other opportunity, it's an all spare game.
It's the same concept with a true clean game. The game is clean if you knock down all ten pins every time there are two deliveries. That's why 11 strikes in a row followed by a 9 count is still clean. The bowler didn't have two deliveries renaming at the end of the game.
Make sense??
Okay ten frames, ten spares equal a all spare game.
Then the classic clean game definition is just as consistent. There are ten frames, so ten marks equal a clean game.
The fill, bonus balls don't matter.
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I can't believe we have 9 pages on this subject! If you're in any kind of a contest a clean game is defined in the rules, if you're not in a contest you can use any definition you want to. -- JohnP
You think this is something? This isnt the first time this discussion came up on here, plus its been on other boards too.
An its been just as stupid and never went anywhere as it is here.
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Okay ten frames, ten spares equal a all spare game.
Then the classic clean game definition is just as consistent. There are ten frames, so ten marks equal a clean game.
The fill, bonus balls don't matter.
Is it really?? The difference with the classic definition is that the determination of "clean" is made before the game is complete. When you roll a strike with the first delivery in the 10th, there are two deliveries remaining. The game is not over. You have 2 remaining shots to knock down all 10 pins, so you're ignoring the last part of the game.
Maybe we're just talking semantics. I'm talking about a clean game, and you're talking a clean partial 10. So maybe in the interests of accuracy, the classic definition should be called "the clean partial 10" instead of a "clean game", where a game is defined as all activity through the last delivery.
Would that make more sense??
#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
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Is it really?? The difference with the classic definition is that the determination of "clean" is made before the game is complete. When you roll a strike with the first delivery in the 10th, there are two deliveries remaining. The game is not over. You have 2 remaining shots to knock down all 10 pins, so you're ignoring the last part of the game.
Maybe we're just talking semantics. I'm talking about a clean game, and you're talking a clean partial 10th. Maybe in the interests of accuracy, the classic definition should be called "the clean partial 10" instead of a "clean game", where a game is defined as all activity through the last delivery.
Would that make more sense??
#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
Okay then in the all spare game, after you make the spare in tenth. The game is not over. You have a shot remaining, so you're ignoring the last part of the game.
Maybe in the interests of accuracy, the classic definition of a all spare game should be changed too. 10 spares with something extra tacked on at the end, isn't a "ALL" spare game.
Maybe the "All Spare +" game
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Okay ten frames, ten spares equal a all spare game.
Then the classic clean game definition is just as consistent. There are ten frames, so ten marks equal a clean game.
The fill, bonus balls don't matter.
Is it really?? The difference with the classic definition is that the determination of "clean" is made before the game is complete. When you roll a strike with the first delivery in the 10th, there are two deliveries remaining. The game is not over. You have 2 remaining shots to knock down all 10 pins, so you're ignoring the last part of the game.
Maybe we're just talking semantics. I'm talking about a clean game, and you're talking a clean partial 10. So maybe in the interests of accuracy, the classic definition should be called "the clean partial 10" instead of a "clean game", where a game is defined as all activity through the last delivery.
Would that make more sense??
#strikeguttergutterisacleangame
I still can't see how requiring 11 marks in 10 frames is the only way to achieve a clean game. I understand what everyone is saying, but I personally feel the way USBC sees this is the way it should be.
Anyone can change the rules of their competition to meet their definition. But to expect a change of the game to anything more than 10 frames seems a bit unrealistic. And that is what is being discussed here by some, that due to a person delivering a strike or spare in the tenth frame somehow changes the game to more than 10 frames.
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I'd agree with your above assessment if the 10th frame is the same as frames 1-9. It's not. You have the potential for three deliveries instead of just two.
Again, the game isn't over yet. If you believe that throwing 2 straight gutter balls to end a game should be considered clean, then we have different definitions of "clean" integrity. That's OK since much of this is ultimately subjective anyway.
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I understand what everyone is saying, but I personally feel the way USBC sees this is the way it should be.
Two worldviews:
1) X9- is not clean
2) #StrikeGutterGutterIsClean
No?
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The only definition of a clean game that matters is the one that they have to win some prize.
And if that differs from what your personal integrity says it is, turn down the prize if they try to hand it to you. Otherwise your integrity means nothing, it's just hyperbole.
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The only definition of a clean game that matters is the one that they have to win some prize.
Truth!
And if that differs from what your personal integrity says it is, turn down the prize if they try to hand it to you. Otherwise your integrity means nothing, it's just hyperbole.
Ladies and Gentlemen I present to you, the definition of a false dichotomy.
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The only definition of a clean game that matters is the one that they have to win some prize.
And if that differs from what your personal integrity says it is, turn down the prize if they try to hand it to you. Otherwise your integrity means nothing, it's just hyperbole.
No issue with going with definitions for winning cash prizes. One of my favorite local tournaments is a scratch no-tap 6 gamer. Nine pins for a strike is ludicrous in a pure sense, but that's the definition for the tournament, and it's fun. It's actually much more challenging than many believe.
What we're talking about here is what "clean" should be in a pure sense. I'm still trying to get a straight answer to what's wrong with requiring that all 10 pins be knocked down whenever there are 2 consecutive deliveries to do so. It's such a simple and logical concept, it boggles the mind to see so many fight it.
The final rejection always seems to be "well, the USBC says....". This is one of those cases where I don't give two sh*ts and a giggle what they say. The ABC/USBC has a long history of doing stupid, and proposing to do stupid things. Blindly following everything without healthy inspection is the definition of intellectual dishonesty.
Is it really that difficult to examine without feeling offended??
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The only definition of a clean game that matters is the one that they have to win some prize.
And if that differs from what your personal integrity says it is, turn down the prize if they try to hand it to you. Otherwise your integrity means nothing, it's just hyperbole.
No issue with going with definitions for winning cash prizes. One of my favorite local tournaments is a scratch no-tap 6 gamer. Nine pins for a strike is ludicrous in a pure sense, but that's the definition for the tournament, and it's fun. It's actually much more challenging than many believe.
What we're talking about here is what "clean" should be in a pure sense. I'm still trying to get a straight answer to what's wrong with requiring that all 10 pins be knocked down whenever there are 2 consecutive deliveries to do so. It's such a simple and logical concept, it boggles the mind to see so many fight it.
The final rejection always seems to be "well, the USBC says....". This is one of those cases where I don't give two sh*ts and a giggle what they say. The ABC/USBC has a long history of doing stupid, and proposing to do stupid things. Blindly following everything without healthy inspection is the definition of intellectual dishonesty.
Is it really that difficult to examine without feeling offended??
You may not like the USBC. You have every reason not to. But they ARE the governing body, their opinion of the definition IS the final definition. It is a cop out to act like everyone is a blind sheep if they agree with the very basic premise that a governing body makes the rules of the sport. You're saying "I don't agree with the rules, and you don't agree with me, so you must be too stupid to think for yourself." Please.
You act like your way is a simple and logical concept, which I won't debate. You're just ignoring that having a mark in every frame is also a simple and logical concept. It might even be more simple: "get a mark in every frame" is easier to understand than "get a mark in frames 1-9 and two marks in frame 10".
If you have an argument for changing the official definition that has more depth than just being your opinion of what clean means to you, I'm all ears. But the OPs question was "if you get 1 mark in the 10th frame, is it a clean game?" That question has an official answer. "What were talking about here" is that question. YOU'RE talking about something else.
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You may not like the USBC. You have every reason not to. But they ARE the governing body, their opinion of the definition IS the final definition. It is a cop out to act like everyone is a blind sheep if they agree with the very basic premise that a governing body makes the rules of the sport. You're saying "I don't agree with the rules, and you don't agree with me, so you must be too stupid to think for yourself." Please.
You act like your way is a simple and logical concept, which I won't debate. You're just ignoring that having a mark in every frame is also a simple and logical concept. It might even be more simple: "get a mark in every frame" is easier to understand than "get a mark in frames 1-9 and two marks in frame 10".
If you have an argument for changing the official definition that has more depth than just being your opinion of what clean means to you, I'm all ears. But the OPs question was "if you get 1 mark in the 10th frame, is it a clean game?" That question has an official answer. "What were talking about here" is that question. YOU'RE talking about something else.
I can go with most of your response. At least there is some thought behind it, unlike much of what's been presented. But a few clarifications.
I don't dislike the USBC. On the contrary, I'm usually on the side in various threads defending the existence of the organization. But no organization is perfect -- especially the USBC. It's appropriate to challenge where something doesn't seem right. Even if you accept without question thoughts on current scoring, the rule book doesn't provide clarity where it should. Questioning and expecting thoughtful responses is not a cop out. When I ask a sincere question, I don't appreciate a response whining about how long the thread has gone. Change is usually grassroots in nature and can start with simple discussions like you find on forums like this. That shouldn't offend anyone.
I've said many times here that in competition, on the lanes, I go with whatever the rules happen to be. I'll congratulate anyone who gets a clean 30 award without condition. That's the one part where the tone of your post fell back on the same nonsense many others have tried to make their point.
As far as the original OP's question, you know from long experience that threads take different directions after a while. Don't pretend anything has been hijacked. I'm sure the OP saw his specific question answered here.
Anyway, thanks for your input.
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If you have an argument for changing the official definition that has more depth than just being your opinion of what clean means to you, I'm all ears
So, you see nothing wrong with a strike, gutter, gutter in the tenth; counting as a clean game?? Not ....one.... thing wrong with it???
If I could be the fly on a wall of a tournament office when someone finds out after going 30 clean they would have to split a 30 clean pot with a bowler who did double gutter, LOL!!
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So, you see nothing wrong with a strike, gutter, gutter in the tenth; counting as a clean game?? Not ....one.... thing wrong with it???
He doesn't b/c he recorded a mark in the 10th. That's "why" (See! We DO comprehend the argument, for lack of a better term, FOR #StrikeGutterGutterIsClean).
He's just pro #StrikeGutterGutterIsClean
League Bowler: "GTGT, you had a clean night tonight bro!"
GTGT: "Nah, went X9- game 2, I missed that wrap dime I had"
League Bowler: "That's clean, by rule."
GTGT: "I can't honestly look myself in the eyes in the mirror and say I had a clean night, even if I recorded a mark in the 10th b/c I have higher standards than that. I'm not being honest with myself and my conscience knows it.
Whenever I don't clear 10 in 2 attempts.....I hold myself to a higher standard than 'mark in the 10th and you're good'. BUT, that being said......I hope you feel good about your clean night."
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#strikeguttergutter usually outs you as a flaming sandbagger and gets you the #curbstomp in my hood.
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#strikeguttergutter usually outs you as a flaming sandbagger and gets you the #curbstomp in my hood.
You owe me a new monitor! :P :P :P
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So, you see nothing wrong with a strike, gutter, gutter in the tenth; counting as a clean game?? Not ....one.... thing wrong with it???
He doesn't b/c he recorded a mark in the 10th. That's "why" (See! We DO comprehend the argument, for lack of a better term, FOR #StrikeGutterGutterIsClean).
He's just pro #StrikeGutterGutterIsClean
League Bowler: "GTGT, you had a clean night tonight bro!"
GTGT: "Nah, went X9- game 2, I missed that wrap dime I had"
League Bowler: "That's clean, by rule."
GTGT: "I can't honestly look myself in the eyes in the mirror and say I had a clean night, even if I recorded a mark in the 10th b/c I have higher standards than that. I'm not being honest with myself and my conscience knows it.
Whenever I don't clear 10 in 2 attempts.....I hold myself to a higher standard than 'mark in the 10th and you're good'. BUT, that being said......I hope you feel good about your clean night."
Well said. Hopefully in simple enough terms for those who didn't previously understand.