BallReviews
General Category => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: AlonzoHarris on February 11, 2018, 08:28:01 PM
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What house shot hero average do you consider someone a "scratch bowler"?
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There's no magic number, I think it just comes down to being able to compete with everyone else
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There's no magic number, I think it just comes down to being able to compete with everyone else
What average, in your opinion would you make the cutoff between a handicap and scratch division?
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There's no magic number, I think it just comes down to being able to compete with everyone else
What average, in your opinion would you make the cutoff between a handicap and scratch division?
Depends on the rules. Most often I'd say 210+ but a scratch league can have a cap leading to lower bowlers being in
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What's the point of this topic?
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What's the point of this topic?
Some local issues. Feeling out a small bit on here.
Let me better summarize. How would you structure a tournament to lend to having a handicap and scratch division. Or all handicap but keeping "scratch bowlers" happy?
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What's the point of this topic?
Some local issues. Feeling out a small bit on here.
Let me better summarize. How would you structure a tournament to lend to having a handicap and scratch division. Or all handicap but keeping "scratch bowlers" happy?
Our center is having the same issue at the moment. Went from having handicap and scratch divisions to just a handicap tournament
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Never gonna keep scratch bowlers happy. Lol
I see a lot of tournaments that are 90% of 220 with an optional (additional fee) scratch entry. That's probably as close as you can get to keep the bitching to a reasonable level.
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Never gonna keep scratch bowlers happy. Lol
I see a lot of tournaments that are 90% of 220 with an optional (additional fee) scratch entry. That's probably as close as you can get to keep the bitching to a reasonable level.
I'd agree. But then what oil pattern do you use?
House patterns will make handicap bowlers happy because they can score without thought.
Tougher patterns will give "true" scratch bowlers an edge and make them happy.
:House: scratch bowlers however will never be happy without a house pattern.
But then bowlers were born unhappy. :(
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Never gonna keep scratch bowlers happy. Lol
I see a lot of tournaments that are 90% of 220 with an optional (additional fee) scratch entry. That's probably as close as you can get to keep the bitching to a reasonable level.
I'd agree. But then what oil pattern do you use?
House patterns will make handicap bowlers happy because they can score without thought.
Tougher patterns will give "true" scratch bowlers an edge and make them happy.
:House: scratch bowlers however will never be happy without a house pattern.
But then bowlers were born unhappy. :(
Unfortunately house shot and house scratch bowlers.
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You can never keep the Scratch bowlers happy. I am a 2-teen bowler depending on the house. In a good scoring house I am at a 219+ and at a tough scoring house, I am a 205-. Tournaments are always tough for the scratch bowlers because the house hacks don't drink as much, concentrate more and pick up more spares and invariably bowl 20-50 pins over their average. Pick the highest score in your yearbook, normally between 220 and 230. Ignore the guy that is 240+. Make it 90% of the highest score. Make the Tournament patter the USBC White 2 pattern. Don't tell anyone the pattern unless they ask. If they ask, tell them it is the association tournament pattern. You can still score, but you have to try harder to make better shots. Most house hacks can't tell the difference, and only some of the scratch bowlers will be able to tell. Keep your scratch option available. If you really want to have some fun, run a 9-pin no tap on a sport pattern like the USBC team pattern from the previous year.
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Run a regular house shot and make it 90% of 220. If that runs off all 4 scratch bowlers that were going to attend, no big loss because they're going to be the biggest complainers anyway. A good scratch bowler can still win a handicap tournament or do very well. I make a lot of money at our city tournament every year, and got sent a 1099 for my winnings at state last year, handicap tournaments on house shots. "Yeah but it's easier for a handicap bowler to go big than it is for a scratch bowler." If it was then they would average higher.
So why does a scratch bowler who averages 230 get congratulated for shooting 800, yet a bowler who averages 170 and shoots 620 gets called a bagging cheater? Both went 110 pins over average. And you know what else, even after adding handicap, the scratch bowler still wins 800-755. I used to be a whiny scratch bowler, but once you do the math, all you have to do is bowl better and you have a significant advantage. If you're a scratch bowler and think you're hot stuff, go bowl scratch tournaments. "But there are no scratch tournaments left." #pbaregionals #pbatour "Well but I'm not that good, I don't want to take it that serious." That's exactly what handicap bowlers say about scratch tournaments. Shut up, buck up. If I ran a tournament, I wouldn't cater to a scratch bowler at all, they're the biggest pains for the smallest return, just not worth the aggravation.
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Run a regular house shot and make it 90% of 220. If that runs off all 4 scratch bowlers that were going to attend, no big loss because they're going to be the biggest complainers anyway. A good scratch bowler can still win a handicap tournament or do very well. I make a lot of money at our city tournament every year, and got sent a 1099 for my winnings at state last year, handicap tournaments on house shots. "Yeah but it's easier for a handicap bowler to go big than it is for a scratch bowler." If it was then they would average higher.
So why does a scratch bowler who averages 230 get congratulated for shooting 800, yet a bowler who averages 170 and shoots 620 gets called a bagging cheater? Both went 110 pins over average. And you know what else, even after adding handicap, the scratch bowler still wins 800-755. I used to be a whiny scratch bowler, but once you do the math, all you have to do is bowl better and you have a significant advantage. If you're a scratch bowler and think you're hot stuff, go bowl scratch tournaments. "But there are no scratch tournaments left." #pbaregionals #pbatour "Well but I'm not that good, I don't want to take it that serious." That's exactly what handicap bowlers say about scratch tournaments. Shut up, buck up. If I ran a tournament, I wouldn't cater to a scratch bowler at all, they're the biggest pains for the smallest return, just not worth the aggravation.
Luke - You completely get the situation haha. Comments that have came up "There's no scratch tournaments left"
"Handicap bowlers shouldn't be in our division when we don't get any handicap"
"They're screwing the scratch bowlers"
Scratch division was too low of a payout - add handicap. More bowlers enter the division and now scratch bowlers pissed when people with high handicap are in the top 5.
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You can never keep the Scratch bowlers happy. I am a 2-teen bowler depending on the house. In a good scoring house I am at a 219+ and at a tough scoring house, I am a 205-. Tournaments are always tough for the scratch bowlers because the house hacks don't drink as much, concentrate more and pick up more spares and invariably bowl 20-50 pins over their average. Pick the highest score in your yearbook, normally between 220 and 230. Ignore the guy that is 240+. Make it 90% of the highest score. Make the Tournament patter the USBC White 2 pattern. Don't tell anyone the pattern unless they ask. If they ask, tell them it is the association tournament pattern. You can still score, but you have to try harder to make better shots. Most house hacks can't tell the difference, and only some of the scratch bowlers will be able to tell. Keep your scratch option available. If you really want to have some fun, run a 9-pin no tap on a sport pattern like the USBC team pattern from the previous year.
Would you run the 9-pin no tap sport pattern tournament scratch or handicap? I've heard tournament directors in the past say they will never ever run a sport shot tournament with handicap, and others that have. Hadn't quite felt out the reception from the ones with handicap to know how it was.
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You can never keep the Scratch bowlers happy. I am a 2-teen bowler depending on the house. In a good scoring house I am at a 219+ and at a tough scoring house, I am a 205-. Tournaments are always tough for the scratch bowlers because the house hacks don't drink as much, concentrate more and pick up more spares and invariably bowl 20-50 pins over their average. Pick the highest score in your yearbook, normally between 220 and 230. Ignore the guy that is 240+. Make it 90% of the highest score. Make the Tournament patter the USBC White 2 pattern. Don't tell anyone the pattern unless they ask. If they ask, tell them it is the association tournament pattern. You can still score, but you have to try harder to make better shots. Most house hacks can't tell the difference, and only some of the scratch bowlers will be able to tell. Keep your scratch option available. If you really want to have some fun, run a 9-pin no tap on a sport pattern like the USBC team pattern from the previous year.
Would you run the 9-pin no tap sport pattern tournament scratch or handicap? I've heard tournament directors in the past say they will never ever run a sport shot tournament with handicap, and others that have. Hadn't quite felt out the reception from the ones with handicap to know how it was.
/We did. It was a lot of fun. The real big bowlers didn't participate, but the house bowlers did. A 680 was a real good score. A 700 was almost a sure win. In most 9-pin, a score lower than 850 put you out of the money.
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In the local association tournament I don't have a problem with it being handicap.
All the houses in town pretty much run the same THS so everyone has an average based on that. If someone gets hot with a lot of handicap all you can do is congratulate them.
They also award the top scratch scores. The scratch all events has an entry fee and its own prize fund.
The only issue I have seen is another regional tournament held here. There is a small town about 180 miles from here that has several good bowlers but the local house where they bowl is a brick yard. They average 180 to 190 there and shoot 2100 to 2200 all events here virtually every year. I do believe that little house has now been shut down and their averages have gone up and lost that advantage.
A lot of scratch bowlers are whiners. They think they should win every time out. If they bowl good in the tournaments they will cash easier than the handicap bowler. And most of them want easy conditions so they can shoot their averages.
Yes once in a while a handicap bowler will shoot a high 800 to 900+ with handicap but it is a rarity.
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In a local association tournament - say it's 4 games qualifying, cut to top 8 for match play and top 4 stepladder. If ran as handicap with a scratch optional, what's a fair entry fee and scratch optional cost?
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If I were going to run a tournament I would use+/- 80% of 200. Nothing kills the multi entry tournament faster than scores that appear crazy high. If the guys over 200 can't do the math and see they still have an advantage with negative handicap then they can choose not to participate. There is absolutely no reason in a handicap tournament for people over the handicap base to have even more of an advantage. I would also set aside a portion of each entry for scratch prizes, but you would only be allowed to cash once, whichever position pays higher.
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If you are going to have a tournament with multiple stages you either have to have separate divisions, essentially two different tournaments, or just have a scratch side pot for qualifying.
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The one concession that should be made in a handicap tournament for all those involved is capping scores with handicap at 300/game. A scratch bowler getting 0 pins cannot shoot over 300.
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240 avg is the new 220.
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Mega buck tournaments in Vegas have made a comeback since adding handicap divisions. Also Strike Force Tour in Phoenix area gets excellent turnout from both scratch and handicap bowlers without a separate scratch division. They run all tourneys on sport patterns, and adjust high average scratch bowlers down using formulas and past results in their tournaments