BallReviews
General Category => Coverstock Preparation => Topic started by: 2handedrook12 on July 23, 2018, 04:04:00 AM
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Let's talk about urethane coverstocks and carrydown. Being on the younger side of this sight, I didn't grow up knowing what true carrydown was in terms of ball motion. I heard about it, but it was never something I had to consider. The last 5 years, I've become more competitive seeing all kinds of lane conditions. Something that has resurge for certain is urethane. The way some patterns shape, develop, etc have made it a viable option to many higher rev rate players (or in many cases a mirage that "ruins" the shot for themselves and/or others). In my earlier years of this kind of bowling environment, I thought urethane and plastic coverstocks created carrydown itself. From my understanding as of late, carrydown is created by balls that don't really flare. This can cover coverstocks of all sorts (including reactive). In opposite terms, this means urethane balls that do flare will NOT create carrydown. In a recent discussion with some PBA bowlers, there were some complaining about urethane destroying patterns and what not, one of them began to complain that a bowler did the same with a Black Widow Urethane. I haven't done any testing with the higher flaring urethanes, but this doesn't hold true with my philosophy. Personally, I think there's a chance that many of the newer oil patterns tighten up later in blocks regardless of lower flaring equipment. But I am not disregarding what happens when people do throws such equipment especially with a higher rev rate. Curious on what everyone will input here. This conversation was inspired by the Epoxy question since I'm sure many competitive two handers would love to have a ball with that coverstock.
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Flaring urethanes might not create the type of carrydown that used to be a problem, but since they still don't really absorb oil, if you don't wipe the ball off between shots, you'll still redistribute oil down lane - at or after the break point.
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Flaring urethanes might not create the type of carrydown that used to be a problem, but since they still don't really absorb oil, if you don't wipe the ball off between shots, you'll still redistribute oil down lane - at or after the break point.
Bingo!
I believe this is a mostly correct concept. Plastic and urethane absorb oil much more slowly that resin/reactive. As they are continually thrown down the lane, they will deposit the oil on their surface onto the lane surface where they make contact. Urethanes that flare a lot have the oil spread over a wider surface (flare rings) than those that flare less, but unless the bowler actively wipes the oil off on EVERY shot, the oil on the ball will tend to put some of the oil on ts surface onto the lane surface at the point of contact.
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Yeah, agreed. No matter how much the ball flares, the oil absorption rate is what matters.
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I am still of the opinion of BTM articles that in the vast majority of cases what people think is carry down affecting their reactives is actually early friction caused by the reactives depleting the front and end of the pattern. Juggs said it best on here that the actual carry down his urethanes cause tend to help others on his pair throwing reactives and the carry down is more a problem for those using urethane and plastic. This because reactives do better with the little bit of oil urethane carries down at the end (reactives made to hook on light amount of oil) instead of early friction. Urethane and plastic do cause carry down but I still think its garbage that they get blamed for destroying the pattern instead of the fool with 600 revs spraying his 500 grit Sure Lock all over the place.
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I still think its garbage that they get blamed for destroying the pattern instead of the fool with 600 revs spraying his 500 grit Sure Lock all over the place.
+1!!!! I see this happen on a regular basis in my recreational/fun THS leagues. Only reason they get 600 revs is because they are no thumb lofters and what really makes me cringe is when they try to loft a back up ball at right side spares because they have no idea how to bowl correctly. Its a fun league so they are cool with their 165 average and I'm cool with it too. But I'm trying to maintain at least a 215 on the mess they are creating. And if I don't bowl at least a 600 I get ribbed really good.
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Most of these questions can be answered by walking down the lane and looking at the last 20 foot of the lanes after competition. Anybody that thinks resin soaks up all the oil and doesn't carry it down the lane are fooling themselves. Also that oil is coming from an area 24-30 foot down the lane. More midlane than heads. Those that move left and throw right back into that same area, going to get same results, ball flips and rolls out. (sometimes taken for carrydown) Sometime watch Belmonte or Mallot go inside the dry spot and outside of the carrydown. It's either that or take out the sideturn on the ball and roll through it. A la Duke or Walter Ray.
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Most of these questions can be answered by walking down the lane and looking at the last 20 foot of the lanes after competition. Anybody that thinks resin soaks up all the oil and doesn't carry it down the lane are fooling themselves. Also that oil is coming from an area 24-30 foot down the lane. More midlane than heads. Those that move left and throw right back into that same area, going to get same results, ball flips and rolls out. (sometimes taken for carrydown) Sometime watch Belmonte or Mallot go inside the dry spot and outside of the carrydown. It's either that or take out the sideturn on the ball and roll through it. A la Duke or Walter Ray.
Took me reading your post 2 or 3 times and I think I get it. I move feet left and hit the same mid lane spot me and everybody else have been hitting all night and it reads early and goes high. I move my target right a couple boards to avoid that part of the mid lane and I don't get back to the pocket leaving the 2 pin and anything else left standing because now I'm in the carry down. And I don't have the revs like Belmo or Mallot to target even farther right of the carry down and make it back to the pocket, lol. Thanks for the tip.
Now I know why sometimes I find myself moving farther and farther right late in the set to find a way around this mess.
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Most of these questions can be answered by walking down the lane and looking at the last 20 foot of the lanes after competition. Anybody that thinks resin soaks up all the oil and doesn't carry it down the lane are fooling themselves. Also that oil is coming from an area 24-30 foot down the lane. More midlane than heads. Those that move left and throw right back into that same area, going to get same results, ball flips and rolls out. (sometimes taken for carrydown) Sometime watch Belmonte or Mallot go inside the dry spot and outside of the carrydown. It's either that or take out the sideturn on the ball and roll through it. A la Duke or Walter Ray.
Took me reading your post 2 or 3 times and I think I get it. I move feet left and hit the same mid lane spot me and everybody else have been hitting all night and it reads early and goes high. I move my target right a couple boards to avoid that part of the mid lane and I don't get back to the pocket leaving the 2 pin and anything else left standing because now I'm in the carry down. And I don't have the revs like Belmo or Mallot to target even farther right of the carry down and make it back to the pocket, lol. Thanks for the tip.
Don't necessarily need carry down to explain the over/under at all.
"As bowlers continue to play in the same general zone, oil is depleted and friction creeps closer toward the foul line and into the midlane zone. This midlane friction evolves into bad friction or what I refer to as El Diablo. El Diablo is an unfriendly zone because it causes a bowler to lose carry due to reduced ball motion and the loss of hold. The ball motion in El Diablo territory is what I call the “Yâ€.
The Y represents an over/under situation brought about by the bad friction of El Diablo. If a bowler misses to the outside, the ball loses too much energy and has too little response to get back to the pocket with good carry.
Conversely, a miss to the inside causes the ball to hook early and not hold pocket. These misses lead to a ball motion that looks like the “Y†shape you see in the image above. The white areas in the photo indicate increasing amounts of friction."
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling-tips/el-dorado-and-el-diablo/
(https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/btmcontent/uploads/2014/06/160x582xthe-y.jpg.pagespeed.ic.oajrYqjE9h.jpg)
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Also for record yes carry down does occur and yes sometimes its a factor (especially with non reactives) but more often league bowlers confuse early friction with late oil imo. They then want to blame the one poor guy throwing urethane (never mind their spare ball is plastic or urethane too) than all the oil sponges they are throwing down the lane.
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I don't habla but I get it. I'm also pretty sure the el diablo I see most nights is a lot wider than the 5-8 boards in that picture. Thanks for the link. I remember reading that article before. I probably didn't understand it as well as I do now.
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Also for record yes carry down does occur and yes sometimes its a factor (especially with non reactives) but more often league bowlers confuse early friction with late oil imo. They then want to blame the one poor guy throwing urethane (never mind their spare ball is plastic or urethane too) than all the oil sponges they are throwing down the lane.
So true!
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(https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/btmcontent/uploads/2014/06/160x582xthe-y.jpg.pagespeed.ic.oajrYqjE9h.jpg)
Well wouldn't you know.... it's that zone of the lane that everyone who complains all the time plays, but refuses to move from.
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(https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/btmcontent/uploads/2014/06/160x582xthe-y.jpg.pagespeed.ic.oajrYqjE9h.jpg)
Well wouldn't you know.... it's that zone of the lane that everyone who complains all the time plays, but refuses to move from.
Who has time for a nose bleed?
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Well wouldn't you know.... it's that zone of the lane that everyone who complains all the time plays, but refuses to move from.
Who has time for a nose bleed?
OH MY GOD MY FEET ARE LEFT OF THE BIG DOT AND I'M DEEPER THAN 15 AT THE ARROWS!!!!!!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/poz0OVHXazf5C/giphy-tumblr.gif)
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Well wouldn't you know.... it's that zone of the lane that everyone who complains all the time plays, but refuses to move from.
Who has time for a nose bleed?
OH MY GOD MY FEET ARE LEFT OF THE BIG DOT AND I'M DEEPER THAN 15 AT THE ARROWS!!!!!!
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/poz0OVHXazf5C/giphy-tumblr.gif)
True story. Wouldn't want to step into LeftyLand.
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This entire Urethane v Resin carry down concept baffles me.
I throw mostly resin and use a Genesis pad to wipe my ball down before each shot(honestly, more out of habit/routine than for effectiveness). I throw my ball and return to my seat and wait for my next turn. With either 3 person or 5 person teams, my ball still has oil rings on it when I pick it up to throw again. At least 5 minutes pass before I return to wipe off my ball for my next frame and oil rings are usually still there.
Given my observations of oil persistence on the cover of reactive resin balls and the fact of how long it actually takes for a ball to roll down the lane, how much more oil can a urethane ball truly leave verses a reactive resin ball?
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This entire Urethane v Resin carry down concept baffles me.
I throw mostly resin and use a Genesis pad to wipe my ball down before each shot(honestly, more out of habit/routine than for effectiveness). I throw my ball and return to my seat and wait for my next turn. With either 3 person or 5 person teams, my ball still has oil rings on it when I pick it up to throw again. At least 5 minutes pass before I return to wipe off my ball for my next frame and oil rings are usually still there.
Given my observations of oil persistence on the cover of reactive resin balls and the fact of how long it actually takes for a ball to roll down the lane, how much more oil can a urethane ball truly leave verses a reactive resin ball?
It's not that urethane pushes a ton of oil down the lane, but itpushes enough down the lane to modify ball motion. Balls aren't suppose to skid twice.
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This entire Urethane v Resin carry down concept baffles me.
I throw mostly resin and use a Genesis pad to wipe my ball down before each shot(honestly, more out of habit/routine than for effectiveness). I throw my ball and return to my seat and wait for my next turn. With either 3 person or 5 person teams, my ball still has oil rings on it when I pick it up to throw again. At least 5 minutes pass before I return to wipe off my ball for my next frame and oil rings are usually still there.
Given my observations of oil persistence on the cover of reactive resin balls and the fact of how long it actually takes for a ball to roll down the lane, how much more oil can a urethane ball truly leave verses a reactive resin ball?
It's not that urethane pushes a ton of oil down the lane, but itpushes enough down the lane to modify ball motion. Balls aren't suppose to skid twice.
+1000
Today's game on a house shot is all about migrating left (for a righty) as the night goes on based on the stronger resin covers burning up the oil in the common hook area. When someone uses urethane in that area, it will cause just enough oil to carry into that area so your ball will skid just a foot or two longer, which can cause shots that miss the pocket to the right. I bowl in many competitive leagues and average 220+ and you always have to pay attention if you are bowling with someone using urethane and adjust accordingly, by either moving back to the right or trying to avoid the area they are rolling it.
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Today's game on a house shot is all about migrating left (for a righty) as the night goes on based on the stronger resin covers burning up the oil in the common hook area. When someone uses urethane in that area, it will cause just enough oil to carry into that area so your ball will skid just a foot or two longer, which can cause shots that miss the pocket to the right. I bowl in many competitive leagues and average 220+ and you always have to pay attention if you are bowling with someone using urethane and adjust accordingly, by either moving back to the right or trying to avoid the area they are rolling it.
Which leads to, really, I think the crux of the discussion. Sometimes you'll get that player throwing urethane and you'll get into that spot where if you move left a little you'll hit that carry down and leave 2-4-5 type leaves (for a righty) and if you move a board or two right you'll get that instant check where the ball stands up and will dive. I think that's what can be frustrating sharing a pair with someone throwing urethane and I think this is what is meant by "destroying the pair" generally speaking.
I do feel that's on me to make the adjustment to it. It certainly would be better if that urethane didn't exist but it is what it is. Usually in this situation I'm thinking of a ball change as well as a zone change on the lanes. The decision becomes moving left and balling up vs moving right and getting something cleaner and more controlled.
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Still not buying it. I don't notice any difference when bowling with people using urethane v resin, even if they are playing the same line.
Is it possible that this is a case of "If you believe it, you will see it"?
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Still not buying it. I don't notice any difference when bowling with people using urethane v resin, even if they are playing the same line.
Is it possible that this is a case of "If you believe it, you will see it"?
I think you mostly notice it if you are also throwing urethane/plastic or there are enough people throwing these type of balls. I find the biggest issues during mixed league where these people are not wiping balls down. Shiny balls can be susceptible to it as well. I ran into this last night. Not a huge deal, but enough to cause carry issues. I DO think it takes a lot to cause issues with a stronger ball though. In that case, it's most likely oil depletion.
If I am not seeing my ball have issues reacting when I am throwing urethane, then you most certainly are not if you are throwing stronger resin.
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Still not buying it. I don't notice any difference when bowling with people using urethane v resin, even if they are playing the same line.
Is it possible that this is a case of "If you believe it, you will see it"?
+1. Weird how I am defending urethane considering only throw it in practice (don't have a lot of revs) but its fun to throw for whatever reason (do like my gems) so when gets demonized unfairly I stick up for it.
(edit: as Jaz mentions above urethane and plastic affect urethane and plastic significantly more than reactives imo.)
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If people are bowling bad for any reason, they will find a reason to complain. If someone is throwing urethane, they will complain its that. If someone is throwing a 500 sanded CodeX 2handed, they will complain about that. "Well, he blew up the lane with the 500grit!" "The urethane caused all that carrydown!", blah blah blah. Its a joke these days and that is one of the reasons i don't bowl much anymore.
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Carrydown first became a noticeable phenomenon with the transition from lacquer to urethane lane finishes in the early 1970s. Bowlers struggled with carrydown using polyester and rubber balls as the oil was pushed off the heads and down the lane without a track developing as was the case on lacquer.
Lane men, trying to minimize the problem actually made it worse by loading up the heads and stripping the back ends. Eventually solution was to put out short patterns of very wet dry walls . Overall oil volumes were still very low by todays standards, but short runs of less than 28 feet with no buff out really made the carrydown noticeable. The heavy walls however, soon produced an environment that rewarded high rev power.
Introduction of urethane balls didnt combat carrdown, but they did reward high rev releases on on the short walls.
Then came the resin revolution in 1992. Resin combatted carrydown in a number of ways. First, the shell absorbed some oil rather than pushing it down the lane. Second the higher friction of resin caused some oil to dissipate from heat. Most important, the resin would cut through the realtively small amount of oil that was available to be carried down in that era. Indeed, for the next 10 to 12 years, patterns blowing up and driving everyone to 5th arrow in any long formats was a much bigger issue.
With todays huge increase in oil volumes compared to 30 years ago the carrydown potential had again appeared, especially with the resurgance of urethane balls
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Everyone talks about "how much oil these new balls absorb", yet never talks about the same balls "absorbing" the oil down the lane that's classified as "carrydown".
Bowlers over-complicate one of the simplest games there is and go into full "The world's against me" mode when they can't hit the same shot that everyone else has to bowl on. It's a much more enjoyable game putting the blinders on, covering your spares, and bowling for profit over reaction. There can be a dead shim on 15 that will carry 85% of the hits but as long as there's some dry to the right, bowlers would rather cover a bunch of boards and complain rather than see very little reaction, average 225 and make the finals of a tournament.
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A couple more points on carrydown. It isnt that urethane carries down oil so much, but rather it reacts to carrydown more extremely than resin. With the trend to longer buffs the nasty impact of carrydown that we saw in the 80s is much less. Also I chuckle at guys with 500 revs and dulled up balls complaining about urethane carrydown at the same time they are blowing up the pattern.
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Right, there's nothing wrong with using surface, but I would say 7/10 bowlers don't realistically have a clue of the path their ball is taking through the heads. They're looking at the pins, breakpoint, or bowling on feel and not really looking anywhere so they think their ball is going "up 10", when it's laid down on 22, crossing 16 at the arrows and out to 8 in the midlane. The issue becomes dull balls going up 7, from 30-15, 25-7, 25-12 from 4 different guys on one pair in a league night. These centers probably haven't upgraded their oils in 6-8 years so it doesn't take long before a pattern gets blown out.
You won't see "carrydown" when guys are playing the lanes on top of each other with todays equipment.
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Right, there's nothing wrong with using surface, but I would say 7/10 bowlers don't realistically have a clue of the path their ball is taking through the heads. They're looking at the pins, breakpoint, or bowling on feel and not really looking anywhere so they think their ball is going "up 10", when it's laid down on 22, crossing 16 at the arrows and out to 8 in the midlane. The issue becomes dull balls going up 7, from 30-15, 25-7, 25-12 from 4 different guys on one pair in a league night. These centers probably haven't upgraded their oils in 6-8 years so it doesn't take long before a pattern gets blown out.
You won't see "carrydown" when guys are playing the lanes on top of each other with todays equipment.
Yep. I see it all the time. Bowler says “I’m going up 5â€. I go watch and know in their setup on the approach they aren’t going up 5. They’re standing on 22. Sure enough, laydown at 16, through the arrows at 12 out 5. Swinging 5 isn’t going up 5. Most bowlers have no clue how much left to right they have in their game (right handed) until they get on something tough and “someone else ruined the shotâ€. No one ruined the shot champ, you ability to repeat shots is poor. You see it all the time in the USBC threads.
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Right, there's nothing wrong with using surface, but I would say 7/10 bowlers don't realistically have a clue of the path their ball is taking through the heads. They're looking at the pins, breakpoint, or bowling on feel and not really looking anywhere so they think their ball is going "up 10", when it's laid down on 22, crossing 16 at the arrows and out to 8 in the midlane. The issue becomes dull balls going up 7, from 30-15, 25-7, 25-12 from 4 different guys on one pair in a league night. These centers probably haven't upgraded their oils in 6-8 years so it doesn't take long before a pattern gets blown out.
You won't see "carrydown" when guys are playing the lanes on top of each other with todays equipment.
Yep. I see it all the time. Bowler says “I’m going up 5â€. I go watch and know in their setup on the approach they aren’t going up 5. They’re standing on 22. Sure enough, laydown at 16, through the arrows at 12 out 5. Swinging 5 isn’t going up 5. Most bowlers have no clue how much left to right they have in their game (right handed) until they get on something tough and “someone else ruined the shotâ€. No one ruined the shot champ, you ability to repeat shots is poor. You see it all the time in the USBC threads.
But isn't there a ball that will make their shortcomings go away? THERE MUST BE!!
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But isn't there a ball that will make their shortcomings go away? THERE MUST BE!!
PM BamBam@aol.com, he'll set you right up. :P
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Good one. ;D
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Carrydown first became a noticeable phenomenon with the transition from lacquer to urethane lane finishes in the early 1970s. Bowlers struggled with carrydown using polyester and rubber balls as the oil was pushed off the heads and down the lane without a track developing as was the case on lacquer.
Lane men, trying to minimize the problem actually made it worse by loading up the heads and stripping the back ends. Eventually solution was to put out short patterns of very wet dry walls . Overall oil volumes were still very low by todays standards, but short runs of less than 28 feet with no buff out really made the carrydown noticeable. The heavy walls however, soon produced an environment that rewarded high rev power.
Introduction of urethane balls didnt combat carrdown, but they did reward high rev releases on on the short walls.
Then came the resin revolution in 1992. Resin combatted carrydown in a number of ways. First, the shell absorbed some oil rather than pushing it down the lane. Second the higher friction of resin caused some oil to dissipate from heat. Most important, the resin would cut through the realtively small amount of oil that was available to be carried down in that era. Indeed, for the next 10 to 12 years, patterns blowing up and driving everyone to 5th arrow in any long formats was a much bigger issue.
With todays huge increase in oil volumes compared to 30 years ago the carrydown potential had again appeared, especially with the resurgance of urethane balls
Excellent insight. This honestly just makes me even more confused as to why some bowlers believe urethane should be banned. Just because reactive is the meta doesn't mean other options should not be allowed.
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Carrydown first became a noticeable phenomenon with the transition from lacquer to urethane lane finishes in the early 1970s. Bowlers struggled with carrydown using polyester and rubber balls as the oil was pushed off the heads and down the lane without a track developing as was the case on lacquer.
Lane men, trying to minimize the problem actually made it worse by loading up the heads and stripping the back ends. Eventually solution was to put out short patterns of very wet dry walls . Overall oil volumes were still very low by todays standards, but short runs of less than 28 feet with no buff out really made the carrydown noticeable. The heavy walls however, soon produced an environment that rewarded high rev power.
Introduction of urethane balls didnt combat carrdown, but they did reward high rev releases on on the short walls.
Then came the resin revolution in 1992. Resin combatted carrydown in a number of ways. First, the shell absorbed some oil rather than pushing it down the lane. Second the higher friction of resin caused some oil to dissipate from heat. Most important, the resin would cut through the realtively small amount of oil that was available to be carried down in that era. Indeed, for the next 10 to 12 years, patterns blowing up and driving everyone to 5th arrow in any long formats was a much bigger issue.
With todays huge increase in oil volumes compared to 30 years ago the carrydown potential had again appeared, especially with the resurgance of urethane balls
Excellent insight. This honestly just makes me even more confused as to why some bowlers believe urethane should be banned. Just because reactive is the meta doesn't mean other options should not be allowed.
Urethane, banned? Who are the nerds thinking this up?
OH, THE ONES WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO BOWL.
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Ban urethane? Must be getting tired of getting their ass handed to them by senior bowlers with Faballs or something. Urethane was such a cheat ball that it nearly disappeared when reactives came on the scene. If not for 2 handed Europeans there probably wouldn't have been new urethane. On most conditions someone beating you with urethane is basically beating you with one hand tied behind their back.
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Urethane, banned? Who are the nerds thinking this up?
OH, THE ONES WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO BOWL.
I just heard that GIANT Ass -Randy Petersen say exactly that on a telecast recently. Why they give him a mic is beyond comprehension. Go figure...……...
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Urethane, banned? Who are the nerds thinking this up?
OH, THE ONES WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO BOWL.
I just heard that GIANT Ass -Randy Petersen say exactly that on a telecast recently. Why they give him a mic is beyond comprehension. Go figure...……...
Nobody will ever take away his most famous moment of rolling on the lanes while getting teabagged by Ernie Schlegel. So famous it was the inspiration for Big Ern in the movie Kingpin. Farley brothers probably had to change it to getting Munsoned instead of Petersened so they didn't get sued.
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Carrydown first became a noticeable phenomenon with the transition from lacquer to urethane lane finishes in the early 1970s. Bowlers struggled with carrydown using polyester and rubber balls as the oil was pushed off the heads and down the lane without a track developing as was the case on lacquer.
Lane men, trying to minimize the problem actually made it worse by loading up the heads and stripping the back ends. Eventually solution was to put out short patterns of very wet dry walls . Overall oil volumes were still very low by todays standards, but short runs of less than 28 feet with no buff out really made the carrydown noticeable. The heavy walls however, soon produced an environment that rewarded high rev power.
Introduction of urethane balls didnt combat carrdown, but they did reward high rev releases on on the short walls.
Then came the resin revolution in 1992. Resin combatted carrydown in a number of ways. First, the shell absorbed some oil rather than pushing it down the lane. Second the higher friction of resin caused some oil to dissipate from heat. Most important, the resin would cut through the realtively small amount of oil that was available to be carried down in that era. Indeed, for the next 10 to 12 years, patterns blowing up and driving everyone to 5th arrow in any long formats was a much bigger issue.
With todays huge increase in oil volumes compared to 30 years ago the carrydown potential had again appeared, especially with the resurgance of urethane balls
Excellent insight. This honestly just makes me even more confused as to why some bowlers believe urethane should be banned. Just because reactive is the meta doesn't mean other options should not be allowed.
Urethane, banned? Who are the nerds thinking this up?
OH, THE ONES WHO DON'T KNOW HOW TO BOWL.
This is how some PBA and top level ameteur bowlers feel. I thought maybe being part of a different era caused me to miss something lol.
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So why aren't these ban urethane bowlers also looking to get plastic banned? Plastic, even when used for a spare attempt, is carrying down oil, too. Oh wait, they use plastic for their spares so that deserves an exemption.
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Good point on spare shooting. The most carry down impact I ever see is shooting 4 pins and 7s on short to medium length sport patterns. That is why we see pros air mailing the ball down lane at 25 mph on all their spares.