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Author Topic: Clean game definition (Read 3486 times)

ldkelleyb5

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Clean game definition
on: September 04, 2017, 06:33:44 PM
If you get 1 mark in the 10th, is it considered a clean game?  I'm fairly sure that if you get a spare and change in the 10th, it should be a clean game, but I'm wondering more about a strike, then, say, a 7 count, then a 2.

Just something I've been wondering about for some time, and everyone seems to have a different answer.
Thanks!

milorafferty

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #76 on: September 12, 2017, 04:01:11 PM
I think that anyone who eats celery is stupid.  :o

What about celery with cream cheese or peanut butter on it? You can't deny that's tasty.


Oh yes I can.

Here is the math; celery=stupid  8)

#iggylist

oh no you didn't  :o
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Impending Doom

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #77 on: September 12, 2017, 04:57:29 PM
I think that anyone who eats celery is stupid.  :o

What about celery with cream cheese or peanut butter on it? You can't deny that's tasty.


Oh yes I can.

Here is the math; celery=stupid  8)

#iggylist

oh no you didn't  :o
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Steven

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #78 on: September 12, 2017, 06:45:41 PM

Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.

 
Thanks for stating what should be obvious to anyone participating in the thread. I don't know why this is so perplexing to some.
 
The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others.  Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is.  Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
 

Wow. It's hard to know where to start with this. You either have a problem with reading comprehension, or you're intentionally being dishonest about what I've posted. "My way of thinking" is sincerely asking why it shouldn't be required to knock down 10 pins with 2 balls, even in the 10th, to be awarded a clean game. If your best answer is to blindly support a rule without providing any justification, why bother? It doesn't add anything to the conversation.
Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 06:47:20 PM by Steven

tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #79 on: September 13, 2017, 09:33:58 AM

 
The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others.  Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is.  Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
 

Wow. It's hard to know where to start with this. You either have a problem with reading comprehension, or you're intentionally being dishonest about what I've posted. "My way of thinking" is sincerely asking why it shouldn't be required to knock down 10 pins with 2 balls, even in the 10th, to be awarded a clean game. If your best answer is to blindly support a rule without providing any justification, why bother? It doesn't add anything to the conversation.



Here is why I brought up Glenn Allison.

Everyone should probably be able to agree, that in 1982 when Glenn rolled his 900 series, it was much, much, much harder to strike, let alone string strikes, and subsequently, make spares. There were only a handful of options to use for bowling balls, and there wasn't a huge difference between those balls. If a rule that history has shown, just doesn't make sense based on how the game is played today, it's only logical to look at updating a rule, or at minimal be understanding to why a rule is in place. This brings me to the one mark rule of the tenth frame. Back when the rule was originally written (not sure how long ago, but I'm sure it's been many many years written as such), because strikes were fewer and further between, being able to at least throw the first strike in the tenth WAS an accomplishment, and could be rewarded as such. People want to use 1950's standards for achievements, while bowling in the current environment. Give everyone a trophy I guess.
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JazlarVonSteich

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #80 on: September 13, 2017, 10:06:48 AM

Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.


It is in frame 10 as well! However, there is no frame 11 or 12. Those are FILL balls to FILL the requirements of the first mark in the 10th. How is this not hard to understand? You cannot fill the second "spare" or the second/third strike. They are simply shots to add to the first mark. The rule makes perfect sense as it is written.

Again, missing the "spare" is not something to feel good about, but you'll never be able to fill it anyway.

tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #81 on: September 13, 2017, 10:15:54 AM

Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.


It is in frame 10 as well! However, there is no frame 11 or 12. Those are FILL balls to FILL the requirements of the first mark in the 10th. How is this not hard to understand? You cannot fill the second "spare" or the second/third strike. They are simply shots to add to the first mark. The rule makes perfect sense as it is written.

Again, missing the "spare" is not something to feel good about, but you'll never be able to fill it anyway.

If they were only "fill balls" as you are stating then the second strike wouldn't count as 20 or any type of pin count add into the 9th frame, if there was a 9th frame strike. Two "fill balls" after striking the first ball of the tenth, would only count 10, and 10, if strikes. That is where calling it fills balls, breaks down.

If the second shot of the tenth was only meaningful to filling the tenth frame only, then I could agree with you. Since the "12th ball" doesn't count any where but to the total "fill of the frame", then not striking on the "12th ball" after throwing the first two of the tenth or making a spare, makes sense, to call it a fill ball, and not be required to knock all ten down to "fill" the frame and be a clean game.

Last Edit: September 13, 2017, 10:25:21 AM by tommygn
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #82 on: September 13, 2017, 10:34:53 AM
Again, those of you who feel good about X52 and count it as clean by appealing to the written rule, you all do you and feel good about it.

I'm just saying if I go X52, I'm not telling you I threw a clean game.  Oh and you lose the $ on my team.

#HighStandards
GTx2

rocky61201

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #83 on: September 13, 2017, 10:45:27 AM
Again, those of you who feel good about X52 and count it as clean by appealing to the written rule, you all do you and feel good about it.

I'm just saying if I go X52, I'm not telling you I threw a clean game.  Oh and you lose the $ on my team.

#HighStandards

Same thing goes for my team.  If you are anchor bowler #5 and roll a 299, be prepared to have your 5 dollars travel to bowler #1, even if bowler #1 shot a 132.
And if you're gonna break out the rule book over $5 then we'll probably kick you off the team.
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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #84 on: September 13, 2017, 10:51:31 AM
Again, those of you who feel good about X52 and count it as clean by appealing to the written rule, you all do you and feel good about it.

I'm just saying if I go X52, I'm not telling you I threw a clean game.  Oh and you lose the $ on my team.

#HighStandards

Same thing goes for my team.  If you are anchor bowler #5 and roll a 299, be prepared to have your 5 dollars travel to bowler #1, even if bowler #1 shot a 132.
And if you're gonna break out the rule book over $5 then we'll probably kick you off the team.

Well, to be fair, if you double in the 10th, as long as you get count, you win on our team.  9/9 gets you paid, X9/ gets you paid.

It's just when you have two attempts to clear all 10 that "cleanliness" (  :P ) becomes an issue.

You guys are tough but if everyone agrees to that caveat all is well. 
GTx2

spmcgivern

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #85 on: September 13, 2017, 11:05:07 AM

Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.

 
Thanks for stating what should be obvious to anyone participating in the thread. I don't know why this is so perplexing to some.
 
The above quote is indicative of the type of superiority complex in this thread and others.  Who cares if you want to call a clean game more than what the established rule is.  Just don't insinuate those that don't appeal to your way of thinking as not making sense.
 

Wow. It's hard to know where to start with this. You either have a problem with reading comprehension, or you're intentionally being dishonest about what I've posted. "My way of thinking" is sincerely asking why it shouldn't be required to knock down 10 pins with 2 balls, even in the 10th, to be awarded a clean game. If your best answer is to blindly support a rule without providing any justification, why bother? It doesn't add anything to the conversation.


Not once did I say your point of view "makes no sense" (your words).  Not once did I say your view can't be followed by those that feel the same.

The key thing to this discussion and what I feel makes the difference is bowling is comprised of 10 frames.  USBC allows marks in each of the 10 frames to be considered clean; not 11 frames.  Requiring strike spare in the tenth requires 11 marks in 10 frames. 

I get it.  I was surprised to find out USBCs requirement thinking it was incorrect.  But the more I thought about it, I was okay with it.  Everyone doesn't have to be and if they feel the current way is incorrect, then propose a change.  Many on this thread have stated they use different rules for their teams or leagues.  That is fine.  I don't really have a game or situation where the definition of a clean game is used.  So for me, going X9- pisses me off.  I just don't think how I feel should affect the definition since I understand the definition as it is today.

avabob

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #86 on: September 13, 2017, 05:27:07 PM
Going X 9- only pisses me off if I lose by one pin

JazlarVonSteich

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #87 on: September 15, 2017, 11:21:06 AM

Feeling that given the opportunity to knock ten pins down with two balls, and not doing so and wanting to classify it as an "open", is hardly a "superiority complex". In frames one through nine, that would be classified as an open. Pointing out a glaring flaw in logic is not acting superior, it's just stating facts.


It is in frame 10 as well! However, there is no frame 11 or 12. Those are FILL balls to FILL the requirements of the first mark in the 10th. How is this not hard to understand? You cannot fill the second "spare" or the second/third strike. They are simply shots to add to the first mark. The rule makes perfect sense as it is written.

Again, missing the "spare" is not something to feel good about, but you'll never be able to fill it anyway.

If they were only "fill balls" as you are stating then the second strike wouldn't count as 20 or any type of pin count add into the 9th frame, if there was a 9th frame strike. Two "fill balls" after striking the first ball of the tenth, would only count 10, and 10, if strikes. That is where calling it fills balls, breaks down.

If the second shot of the tenth was only meaningful to filling the tenth frame only, then I could agree with you. Since the "12th ball" doesn't count any where but to the total "fill of the frame", then not striking on the "12th ball" after throwing the first two of the tenth or making a spare, makes sense, to call it a fill ball, and not be required to knock all ten down to "fill" the frame and be a clean game.

If you strike in the 9th, then the 2nd ball in the 10th FILLS the 2 ball scoring requirement for the strike in the 9th. It also FILLS the 1st (of 2) balls for the 1st strike in the 10th. I think you don't get it, still.

The 2nd and 3rd strikes in the 10th are never filled. NEVER. Neither is a spare (after striking first in the 10th). Still just FILL balls. You will never add pins to any of those "marks".

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you will feel good about not cleaning up the "spare" that is left. However, it still doesn't change the definition of clean, nor should it.

milorafferty

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #88 on: September 15, 2017, 11:24:11 AM
Damn if bowlers don't love to argue...  ::)
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Impending Doom

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #89 on: September 15, 2017, 11:52:37 AM
Damn if bowlers don't love to argue...  ::)

I feel like arguing this comment. You're wrong. We don't like it!
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rocky61201

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Re: Clean game definition
Reply #90 on: September 15, 2017, 11:59:38 AM
A clean game with a Brooklyn strike is not a clean game!!!
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