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Author Topic: Clean game definition  (Read 17658 times)

ldkelleyb5

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Clean game definition
« on: September 04, 2017, 06:33:44 PM »
If you get 1 mark in the 10th, is it considered a clean game?  I'm fairly sure that if you get a spare and change in the 10th, it should be a clean game, but I'm wondering more about a strike, then, say, a 7 count, then a 2.

Just something I've been wondering about for some time, and everyone seems to have a different answer.
Thanks!

 

milorafferty

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #91 on: September 15, 2017, 12:37:05 PM »
Damn if bowlers don't love to argue...  ::)


I feel like arguing this comment. You're wrong. We don't like it!


Ya huh! Do so...  :P
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tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2017, 01:56:13 PM »

If you strike in the 9th, then the 2nd ball in the 10th FILLS the 2 ball scoring requirement for the strike in the 9th. It also FILLS the 1st (of 2) balls for the 1st strike in the 10th. I think you don't get it, still.

The 2nd and 3rd strikes in the 10th are never filled. NEVER. Neither is a spare (after striking first in the 10th). Still just FILL balls. You will never add pins to any of those "marks".

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you will feel good about not cleaning up the "spare" that is left. However, it still doesn't change the definition of clean, nor should it.

It has nothing to do with "getting" anything. I understand what you are trying to say, I don't agree with you. Two very different things.

On what page of the official USBC rule book, does it define a "clean game"? On what page of the rule book does it call a second delivery of a frame, a "fill ball"?

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/2017-2018Rulebook.pdf


Thanks.


Here is also a link to all special awards. Please show me where the USBC defines and awards a "clean game or series". There is an all spare game award, but I don't see the clean game award.

Again, thanks.


http://read.dmtmag.com/i/788385-special-achievement-awards-volume-4
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 02:10:10 PM by tommygn »
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spmcgivern

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2017, 02:08:33 PM »

If you strike in the 9th, then the 2nd ball in the 10th FILLS the 2 ball scoring requirement for the strike in the 9th. It also FILLS the 1st (of 2) balls for the 1st strike in the 10th. I think you don't get it, still.

The 2nd and 3rd strikes in the 10th are never filled. NEVER. Neither is a spare (after striking first in the 10th). Still just FILL balls. You will never add pins to any of those "marks".

I don't think anyone is suggesting that you will feel good about not cleaning up the "spare" that is left. However, it still doesn't change the definition of clean, nor should it.

It has nothing to do with "getting" anything. I understand what you are trying to say, I don't agree with you. Two very different things.

On what page of the official USBC rule book, does it define a "clean game"? On what page of the rule book does it call a second delivery of a frame, a "fill ball"?

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net/usbcongress/bowl/rulebook/2017-2018Rulebook.pdf


Thanks.




The rule book may not define a clean game, but it does define the game as having 10 frames, not 11 or 12.  Thus, 10 marks in 10 frames is a clean game and USBC does recognize it as such.

tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #94 on: September 15, 2017, 02:22:03 PM »

The rule book may not define a clean game, but it does define the game as having 10 frames, not 11 or 12.  Thus, 10 marks in 10 frames is a clean game and USBC does recognize it as such.

And again I will ask you, do you stand by the USBC's decision to stand behind their "rules", and not "recognize" Glenn Allison's 900 series?
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spmcgivern

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2017, 03:32:35 PM »

The rule book may not define a clean game, but it does define the game as having 10 frames, not 11 or 12.  Thus, 10 marks in 10 frames is a clean game and USBC does recognize it as such.

And again I will ask you, do you stand by the USBC's decision to stand behind their "rules", and not "recognize" Glenn Allison's 900 series?


If you are asking me should USBC reverse course and approve Glenn Allison's 900, I would say no.  Do I think he deserves something, yes. My father had a 300 turned down because of heavy pins.  Does that make any sense at all?

To be honest, if we approved award scores in the same manner we did in 1982, then I would bet many wouldn't get approved.  But we live with the rules we have and no matter how fair or unfair they may seem, they are the rules.

It is clear there are many here that feel the clean game definition is controversial.  I am surprised this thread has generated as much discussion.

avabob

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #96 on: September 16, 2017, 01:09:55 PM »
Clean game argument and Allison's 900 are totally different issues.  There is no need to defineva clean game except in the individual event situation where there is some special award.  In that situation a clean game is whatever the individual definition defines it. 

In Allison's case his 900 was thrown out under an ABC lane conditioning rule.  The fact that the rule was applied in an arbitrary and capricious manner, and without adequate technical measurement methodology is what makes so many if us disappointed

tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #97 on: September 16, 2017, 03:06:38 PM »
Clean game argument and Allison's 900 are totally different issues.  There is no need to defineva clean game except in the individual event situation where there is some special award.  In that situation a clean game is whatever the individual definition defines it. 

In Allison's case his 900 was thrown out under an ABC lane conditioning rule.  The fact that the rule was applied in an arbitrary and capricious manner, and without adequate technical measurement methodology is what makes so many if us disappointed

Here is my point about why I brought up the 900.
 First off,  it's about agreeing to the rules as written, and just accepting them, as stated. I think rules need to change as the environment changes. Example,  35 years ago, there really wasn't a need to have a rule in place to limit a handicapped game to only 300, however, in today's environment, we needed to change that rule.

Second, both are "achievements" of the individual nature, so it's not that far off from each other.

It's about comparing an "accomplishment" that was much harder to achieve 35 years ago then it is today, based on the bowling environment. As stated above, rules need to be current and with the times. If using the same ball and bowled today, Glenn's 900 would  be accepted because they don't check the lanes after every single award score shot.

40 years ago, I can understand saying a "clean game" consists of one mark in every frame. But not in today's environment that is so much easier to strike and use balls that go so much straighter for spares.

Probably why there is only an all spare award from usbc, and not a clean game award. There is a glaring flaw in the logic.
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #98 on: September 16, 2017, 03:26:53 PM »
It's amazing this thread has gone on so long, arguing about a USBC clean game "rule" that doesn't actually exist in the rulebook.

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avabob

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #99 on: September 16, 2017, 06:39:00 PM »
I said the same thing about 59 posts ago, but I am as guilty as anyone for perpetuating the thing.  I only posted this time because of Allison being brought in to the thread.  Here is what a clean game means to me.  I would rather have a 205 with two blows than a clean 204 game
« Last Edit: September 16, 2017, 06:43:36 PM by avabob »

charlest

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #100 on: September 16, 2017, 07:00:27 PM »
A game is defined as 10 frames.

We speak of the 11th frames and the 12th frames solely as  matter of convenience and reference. There is no such thing as an 11th frame or a 12th frame in the bowling of reality as defined by the rules we use to play. Whether the rules are defined by the ABC, the USBC or whatever committee whose members are only human, and as such, are full of frailty and flaws. To be human is to be flawed. If you don't like the rules, petition the organization to change the rules; otherwise, play by them and accept them.

As such, any clean game has a mark in each of 10 frames. Period.

If your ego has to be defined to be beyond that of the rest of us humans, that is the cross you have to bear.

For myself, and I'd bet, many other bowlers, whenever we fail to knock down as many pins as we feel we should, we do suffer under our own conscience silently; we do not publicize it and claim, "They gave me a clean game, but I don't really deserve one."
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tommygn

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #101 on: September 16, 2017, 08:51:03 PM »
In frames 1-9, only one possible strike per frame.

In "frame" 10, 3 possible strikes.

Relating them to each other is like comparing a Hyundai with a Porsche. Yeah, they are both "cars", but very different.

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Steven

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #102 on: September 16, 2017, 11:33:04 PM »
In frames 1-9, only one possible strike per frame.

In "frame" 10, 3 possible strikes.

Relating them to each other is like comparing a Hyundai with a Porsche. Yeah, they are both "cars", but very different.

Exactly. The notion that all frames are created equal is false.
 
Assuming there was an official clean game definition, having a rule that says in any situation where the bowler has two chances to knock down 10 pins, the bowler must do so for the game to be considered "clean".   
 
It seems to be a simpler and more consistent way of looking at it.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2017, 01:28:18 AM by Steven »

dmonroe814

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #103 on: September 18, 2017, 08:51:16 AM »
Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot.  I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response:  The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame.  If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled.  The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.

Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.

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Good Times Good Times

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #104 on: September 18, 2017, 10:24:31 AM »
Since there are no "rules" for the clean game, I asked the USBC tournament committee because they run the 30 and clean jackpot.  I gave them scenarios: the 10th frame.
X8/ is clean.
8/7 is clean.
X81 Clean or Not Clean?
Their response:  The concept of a clean game is a strike or spare is made in each frame.  If a strike or spare is thrown in the tenth frame a clean game is bowled.  The additional deliveries have no bearing on whether a clean game was bowled or not.

Based on the scenarios you provided below, all are clean games.

#LowerStandardsatUSBCOpen

Again if I go 29 clean, then X81 in the 10th of the 3rd game.  That's good enough to collect the $ there by rule.

But you'll never hear me say shit about being 30 clean unless it's by my definition. 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2017, 10:26:18 AM by Good Times Good Times »
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djgook

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Re: Clean game definition
« Reply #105 on: September 18, 2017, 11:09:40 AM »
^^LMAO
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