win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)  (Read 10527 times)

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« on: April 23, 2014, 02:35:43 PM »
So we got paid out last night in our mostly high average competitive scratch league.  14 teams, 3 member, 20 dollar a night, only 7.50 out of that is lineage.  We have a nightly 3 game Eliminator, we also have random match play and a match play standings list.  Teams get paid by position and individuals for match play position per third, and for overall Eliminator take.  My team was in 2nd the entire year, it's a 30 point per night system, and overall we took 703 points on the year out of a possible 990.  In years past, teams got paid for total points, but apparently that's not how it works anymore.  Out of 42 people, I finished 4th, 9th and 4th in the match play standings, did well in the Eliminator, split the hi 10 hi 30 pot, got 2nd place hi 10 for team, had the 4th high average in the league, and I got a grand total of 525 bucks back (total league fees for the year was 660) . . 

Now to put this in perspective, the team that was in first the entire year, took nearly 800 points on the year, I made more than 2 of them.  The top guy on their team who reset our house average record at 240 didn't even break even on the year.  The difference between being in 1st and 14th?  30 per person per third.  The difference between being 1st and 42nd in the match play standings?  31 per third. 

To put this in more perspective, I had a bad year last year.  Not terrible, but it wasn't good at all.  Our team finished 8th out of 11 teams, did ok in the Eliminator, finished around the 20 spot in the match play standings every third, and I took home 450. 

More perspective.  My wife ended up bowling on a team at the last minute because they needed somebody.  Their team finished dead last every third, took only 180 points on the year, she made exactly 20 bucks on the eliminator for the year, and finished either last or next to last in the match play standings every third and her envelope contained 250. 

Now don't get me wrong, I'm happy she got a decent chunk of change back . . and I got more out of the prize fund than I paid into it, but not by much.  Matter of fact, overall I had the 4th highest payday in the league, but the 2 directly ahead of me were only ahead of me by a few bucks apiece. 

This seems to me to be absolutely ridiculous.  If you're in a handicap league, cool, spread the wealth, it's supposed to be just for fun.  But when you're in a high average competitive scratch league with a dress code and 2 lane courtesy written into the league rules, fines for unbecoming or unsportsmanlike conduct or not meeting the dress code, and very strict sub and absentee rules, how does this all add up to a spread the wealth payout?  Where's the incentive to bowl well?  I put in way too much effort and lost way too much sleep just to lose 150 bucks on the year.  Because of this, instead of my team returning next year, both my teammates changed their minds, because they only got back about 425 apiece.  One works an hour drive away, and the other works from 5am-9pm 4 days out of the week.  The league starts at 9pm and is usually over around 1130pm.  We put the team together with the expectation of winning money or at least breaking even. 

The tournament I bowled Sunday?  43 entrants, 75 dollar entry fee.  Got second, walked out with 470, that's tournament payout alone, didn't include any side action.  This league?  42 bowlers, 660 dollar "entry" over 9 MONTHS, 525.  What am I missing here?  Yes I realize tournaments are different, but come on . . 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

 

scrub49

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2014, 04:52:03 PM »
Back in 1995 paid 720.00 for the year won 2,000.00 dollars for first place even the  last place team won 250.00 per person but was still eligible to win 1,500.00 (300.00 per team member) in the sweeper the top two teams could not compete every team from third on down all cashed in the sweeper.

JustRico

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2652
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2014, 05:11:58 PM »
Unfortunately what are the league rules and breakdown? The league had to vote on the prize fund...this everyone should've of known...no?
Co-author of BowlTec's END GAMES ~ A Bowler's COMPLETE Guide to Bowling; Head Games ~ the MENTAL approach to bowling (and sports) & (r)eVolve
...where knowledge creates striking results...
BowlTEc on facebook...www.iBowlTec.com

Pinbuster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4583
  • Former proshop worker
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2014, 05:47:38 PM »
Here we have what I considered to be the best scratch league in town.

3 person teams, 4 games. Peterson points.

They started to guarantee $3000 for the first place team. They get some sponsor money, I'm not sure what the fee is, I believe in the mid 20's.

The first year I believe they had around 32 teams, the next about 28, 2012-2013 they had 24 teams, this year they had 12 teams.

In the past (my experience late 1970's thru the mid 1990's) you would find bowlers willing to participate in the league knowing they were going to get killed and be donators. But were willing to pay to learn and watch.

Some come in with their shiny new 210-220 averages and find out they are now small fish in the pond getting eaten.

Somewhere along the line they have all pretty much decided that they want most of the money they pay in back at the end of the year.

Without a pile of sponsor money it is impossible to do this and put a bunch of money on top.

But if you end up with 6 to 8 teams you can't get any sponsor money and if you give the top team their money back there is nothing for other teams. 

mainzer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4405
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2014, 06:15:54 PM »
Unfortunately what are the league rules and breakdown? The league had to vote on the prize fund...this everyone should've of known...no?

+1
"No one runs...from the conquerer "

MainzerPower

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #20 on: April 24, 2014, 07:59:04 AM »
That's the thing, I don't think anyone ever saw a prize fund or voted on it, the other teams at the top were just as surprised as I was.  And again, in years past, the top teams had walked away with quite a bit of money, or at least broke even or came out ahead on the year.  I can't remember ever seeing or voting on a prize structure for this league any time in the past.  Never happened this year, and while the league has never been super top heavy, it's always seemed fair or reasonable.  The bottom dwellers made more this year than they thought they would, and the top teams didn't.  This year was inconsistent with the past and recent past.  Based on history, there was no reason to worry or be concerned about the prize structure.  After seeing what happened this year, that's going to be my first order of business next year if I even want to bowl or can find another team. 

Again, I don't believe a prize structure was ever passed out or voted on.  Could be the same every year and something that was established or voted on in the past and just carries over from year to year.  Everytime I see a prize structure list or get to vote on it, I ALWAYS vote for it to be more top heavy whether I'm going to be in the top or not, because I think that's the way it should be, and the first place team would have done the same.  But again, based on history, I had no reason to be concerned.  More teams, more money, and if the top teams were already getting a decent amount in the past, I figured we would get a couple hundred apiece more, not a couple hundred apiece less. 

Unfortunately what are the league rules and breakdown? The league had to vote on the prize fund...this everyone should've of known...no?
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

storm making it rain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #21 on: April 24, 2014, 09:34:34 AM »
$12.50 goes into the prize fund for each bowler (based on 33 weeks) for a total of $412.50 each player.  Minus our of that any secretary/treasurer fees (generally $0.50 per bowler per week) which brings your total PRIZE fund contribution to $396.00. 

Considering you didn't WIN the league or WIN any of the "side action" I'd say you didn't do all that bad and actually did make ALL of your prize money back plus some.  Most bowlers don't take in to account the lineage fees when talking about how much they get back. 

But as it has been stated you should have seen a prize list at some point.  Our league (which i'm the sec/treas for) has a 3 man commitee and each of those people submmit a prize list.  It was out by week 4 and voted on by the league.  We have 15 teams of 5 and our break down is as follows:

$25 per week per bowler ($100 team sponsor fee goes into prize fund)

$13 lineage
$1 banquet fee
$0.25 sec/treas fee
$1 50/50 kitty (half goes to bowler with the winning ticket half goes to prize fund)
$9.75 prize fund

We're going to pay $1000 per man for 1st place and last place still gets around $150 per man.  We don't have alot of money for Individual awards (maybe $200 for everything)

Most inportant thing is the BOWLERS voted on our prize list and it was known well in advance.  I also put out a full financial statement at our banquet just in case there's any questions regarding where the money went

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #22 on: April 24, 2014, 03:33:53 PM »
Yeah I did get back more prize fund than I put into it, so I understand where you're coming from.  But the top team in an 11 team league all nearly paid for their bowling, lineage included last year.  The top team this year in a 14 team league bowled better and made less.  Something isn't adding up.  I sent the secretary an email, we'll see what I get back. 
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

itsallaboutme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2001
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #23 on: April 24, 2014, 03:44:19 PM »
It adds up.  Top got less, bottom got more.

If the $100 is going to make a difference in your life I'll send you $100.  The future of the league is better off with a more balanced payout.

Simple as that.

northface28

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3333
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #24 on: April 24, 2014, 06:09:07 PM »
It adds up.  Top got less, bottom got more.

If the $100 is going to make a difference in your life I'll send you $100.  The future of the league is better off with a more balanced payout.

Simple as that.

Harsh, but true. No one is getting rich off bowling league. Im having a hard time seeing what your beef is. Its like taking a job but not knowing how much you'll be paid and then complain when you get your check. When money is involved ALWAYS get the particulars upfront.
NLMB 150 Dream Team
#NoTalking
#HellaBandz

Jesse James

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3604
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #25 on: April 24, 2014, 07:34:26 PM »
I usually do a prize fund in my leagues every year. They always know they can count on me to submit a reasonable prize fund, that is equitable to most in the league.

However, in my most competitive league this year, I purposely submitted a funky, middle/bottom loaded prize fund.....knowing full well, that with all the highly competitive bowlers in our league....it would never get voted in.

And I was right! The top-heavy prize fund won the most votes, but someone never checked the math. It was wrong, and so rather than have it re-submitted with corrections, they just threw it out, and defaulted to the second choice, also a top-heavy proposal. Problem was.....this proposal did not have the right number of teams, so they threw that one out....and defaulted to mine.

Now everyone is grumbling!!! But wasn't my fault. The Prez didn't handle the selection right. Anyway....there's a bunch of 150 averaged bowlers very happy right now, and our league will be packed once again next year! LOL!

Go figure!
Some days you're the bug....some days you're the windshield...that's bowling!

storm making it rain

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 838
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #26 on: April 25, 2014, 07:55:00 AM »
Yeah I did get back more prize fund than I put into it, so I understand where you're coming from.  But the top team in an 11 team league all nearly paid for their bowling, lineage included last year.  The top team this year in a 14 team league bowled better and made less.  Something isn't adding up.  I sent the secretary an email, we'll see what I get back. 

Even when adding more teams, whoever finishes on the bottom needs prize money, so a very small percentage hypothetically would get added to the rest of the league.  Without having a prize fund report, it could be that last year was a little more top heavy and this year it's more spread out. 

I'm fortunate that this year my leagues paid for themselves plus some.  One league will pay $1000 ($875 total paid into it) plus my sec/treas fee of $650 ($0.25 per bowler per week) and my other league will pay around $800 (depending on where we finish on the roll-off as we do quarters)  But again this isn't life changing money, it's more about having fun with the boys and winning as a TEAM.  I'd rather win than make $100 bucks at the end of the year.  Call me crazy but that's what league bowling is supposed to be about.

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #27 on: April 25, 2014, 07:57:52 AM »
It's just the principle of it, but I asked for perspective and you gave it to me. 

And the future of the league isn't really better off . . I lost my team and there are a couple others considering not going back now because there's not really a reason to.  You could show up and put a lot of effort into trying to win and get back maybe 75 bucks more than somebody else who just shows up and half sleeps through the whole set.  I'm just not sure I've ever seen a competitive scratch league with the rules they have set up that pays out like a handicap league. 

Yes I understand you don't bowl league to get rich, but there's no incentive to try or put any effort into it.  If you're going to make within 100 bucks of everyone else no matter what, why drive in from out of town, why be kept up until midnight every night, why make sure you've got your league shirt and meet the dress code so you don't get fined, why have 2 lane courtesy, and why have to mess with trying to find subs all the time because you can only use your average ONCE per third?  Why put up with all that when you can go find some fun handicap league without all the pretentious rules that still gets you to bed at a decent time and will give you the same payout structure?  That's really what my issue is . . not too excited about losing sleep and jumping through a bunch of hoops in a pretentious league just to get nothing for it. 

The other issue is that the prize fund had to have been changed or adjusted.  No one voted on it, no one got to see it, that's just what it was.  Again, based on how it had been paid out in the past, no one was worried about it because the secretary has been the same for a long time and he's done a very good job for a long time.  And when you're already signed up and a few weeks into the league when you get to vote on a prize fund in other leagues anyway, what can you really do? 

It adds up.  Top got less, bottom got more.

If the $100 is going to make a difference in your life I'll send you $100.  The future of the league is better off with a more balanced payout.

Simple as that.

Harsh, but true. No one is getting rich off bowling league. Im having a hard time seeing what your beef is. Its like taking a job but not knowing how much you'll be paid and then complain when you get your check. When money is involved ALWAYS get the particulars upfront.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

Gizmo823

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2167
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #28 on: April 25, 2014, 08:05:02 AM »
True . . and yeah it is about winning, but why is it about winning?  What is the point of winning?  There were no trophies, no recognition, no monetary incentives, absolutely nothing.  It's just "here's your envelope, who's coming back next year?  Ok have a great summer."  It's a pretentious scratch league with a handicap league payout that offers absolutely nothing to the winners.  Lol I don't even think they got their USBC league champion patch . .

Yeah I did get back more prize fund than I put into it, so I understand where you're coming from.  But the top team in an 11 team league all nearly paid for their bowling, lineage included last year.  The top team this year in a 14 team league bowled better and made less.  Something isn't adding up.  I sent the secretary an email, we'll see what I get back. 

Even when adding more teams, whoever finishes on the bottom needs prize money, so a very small percentage hypothetically would get added to the rest of the league.  Without having a prize fund report, it could be that last year was a little more top heavy and this year it's more spread out. 

I'm fortunate that this year my leagues paid for themselves plus some.  One league will pay $1000 ($875 total paid into it) plus my sec/treas fee of $650 ($0.25 per bowler per week) and my other league will pay around $800 (depending on where we finish on the roll-off as we do quarters)  But again this isn't life changing money, it's more about having fun with the boys and winning as a TEAM.  I'd rather win than make $100 bucks at the end of the year.  Call me crazy but that's what league bowling is supposed to be about.
What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane, wrapped helically around an axis?

batbowler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1860
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #29 on: April 25, 2014, 08:13:10 AM »
It happens in every league. Some bowlers want all the money and could care less above the bottom teams. What happens to them? If you lose the bottom half because of the payout how many teams are left? Just my $.02, Bruce
Bruce Campbell
Coaches aren't born, they are made!
USBC Silver Certified Coach
          
www.rotogrip.com
www.stormbowling.com
www.radicalbowling.com
www.damngoodbowling.com

Changing bowling, one bowler at a time!

itsallaboutme

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2001
Re: Give me some perspective (pissed again, of course)
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2014, 08:41:14 AM »
Pride and respect for the game is why you put effort into it.

Joining a league should be about what and where you want to bowl.  And if you are joining a league for the money you should be smart enough to know there is not enough money in a league with 42 people.

And if anyone has a complaint it is the team that won, not the team that finished second.