Author Topic: No Sanction Card (Read 10667 times)

carlos · « **on:** January 16, 2018, 08:14:46 AM »

A bowler was found not having a USBC card. Looking at rule 101 is it clear cut for the bowlers team to forfeit all the games bowled up to the time she got it ? The league did not have a rule addressing this infraction. First time it has come up. Thanks for any insite.

carlos · « **Reply #16 on:** January 16, 2018, 04:26:49 PM »

Person is a fulltime bowler and Sargent at Arms. I think things came into question when she bowled two 300 games in about a weeks time and was inquiring about awards. The other leagues are sanctioned also.

Bowler19525 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 16, 2018, 08:15:20 PM »

If she didn't complete a sanction card in the league, and pay or show proof she had previously paid sanctioning fees for the current season, prior to the end of her first night on the league the games are subject to forfeiture. You can discuss the issue with the league president, but it is important to be absolutely certain the bowler isn't sanctioned before raising the issue. Many times people use their actual, full names on sanction cards but have nicknames in the scoring system. It can look like they aren't sanctioned when they actually are under a slightly different name.

If she is in other sanctioned leagues she is most likely sanctioned. If she has somehow been able to actively bowl on multiple sanctioned leagues without filling out a sanction card or paying fees on any of them, that doesn't say a lot about the secretaries of those leagues. First night of any league I have ever been on has been all about completing and accounting for the sanction cards. That is one of the league secretary's primary responsibilities, especially the first night.

JOE FALCO · « **Reply #18 on:** January 16, 2018, 08:39:19 PM »

Based on CARLOS last comment it's very hard to believe this bowler is NOT sanctioned!

psycaz · « **Reply #19 on:** January 16, 2018, 09:38:54 PM »

Yeah. I'm sorry something doesn't add up. Full time bowler. On four leagues. Sargent-at-arms. But not sanctioned. When her other three leagues are sanctioned. As well as this one.

It only comes up because she shot honor scores.

If she isn't sanctioned, sounds like someone was trying to save a few bucks and got burned by it.

I'm sorry, but if she was trying to scam the system, tough luck. Pay the piper as well as your team(s). Rules are the rules. Again, if it wasn't accidental.

star · « **Reply #20 on:** January 17, 2018, 06:13:31 AM »

Quote from: Aloarjr810 on January 16, 2018, 01:29:21 PM

Quote from: star on January 16, 2018, 12:05:43 PM
Like I say if the cards are backdated like in the UK then a simple fine for the offending person would be more in order.

They backdate cards in the UK, I Took a look at the BTBA rulebook I don't really see anything that says that's okay. They appear to have the same rule as the USBC.

If their back dating forms to show the player paying earlier than they really did, then they know their doing something wrong and trying to hide it from the assoc.

Because if there's nothing wrong with paying for your card late, then there's no reason to back date the pay date on the forms.

Sorry you misunderstood what I mean. Itâ€™s a rules violation in the UK as it is in the US. Our rules are almost a copy paste of the USBC. Our cards run from date of original purchase but itâ€™s easy to forget when leagues here have all different start dates. We donâ€™t really have an off season.

Itâ€™s just I find it harsh that if itâ€™s a â€œgenuineâ€ mistake (and it may seem itâ€™s not due to the above post) then the secretary of the league should attempt to solve the problem without punishing an entire team.

Rules are rules I know but just an example here and please understand Iâ€™m not trying to be clever, so are others. Like the use of acetone on bowling balls. It is not allowed for use at any time. I have had balls drilled by many drillers both UK and US including by Mo Pinel and PBA players and all of them have used it to clean glue from the ball around the grips. By the letter of the law are those balls now illegal for use in sanctioned competition? I donâ€™t know.

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 17, 2018, 11:18:43 AM »

I emailed the USBC and asked this is their response:

This is in reference to your e-mail of January 3, 2018.

I will answer your questions in the order you asked them.

Rule 101 â€“ Membership Fee Payment Requirements say's members must pay or
show proof of payment of USBC dues and the required association
membership fees in effect for the current season before: (1. Adult
membership:) Completion of the bowlerâ€™s first series.

1-Question can a league not follow this rule and have a rule that says
you have for example 4-5 weeks to pay this fee.

Answer: No. According to USBC Rule 100a, section 1g, USBC leagues may adopt other rules, but the adopted rules must not conflict with USBC rules.

Based on the information provided, the proposed rule would conflict with USBC rule 101. Therefore, it would not be an acceptable rule to adopt.

2-Question if a player is found to have bowled for several weeks without
having a membership card ( not payed the fee ), Then pays the fee. Can
there card be back dated to cover the games bowled while the player was
not "certified"?

Answer: No. The membership card would be valid as of the date the bowler purchased it.

3-Question what are the penalties for the player? and or team that used
the player?

Answer: The games are subject to forfeiture. The bowler is considered an ineligible player and an ineligible playerâ€™s score becomes zero, and the games are not included in their
average record. The teamâ€™s score for the forfeited games are also zero. However, the scores bowled by the eligible players are counted toward their averages and any individual prizes.

JohnP · « **Reply #22 on:** January 17, 2018, 12:08:22 PM »

Even when I was in college and on a tight budget I paid my dues the first night and my league fees every session. But in general most leagues allow the dues to be paid within the first three weeks and I don't remember any time this was challenged. -- JohnP

charlest · « **Reply #23 on:** January 17, 2018, 12:26:13 PM »

Quote from: Aloarjr810 on January 17, 2018, 11:18:43 AM

I emailed the USBC and asked this is their response:

This is in reference to your e-mail of January 3, 2018.

I will answer your questions in the order you asked them.

Rule 101 â€“ Membership Fee Payment Requirements say's members must pay or
show proof of payment of USBC dues and the required association
membership fees in effect for the current season before: (1. Adult
membership:) Completion of the bowlerâ€™s first series.

1-Question can a league not follow this rule and have a rule that says
you have for example 4-5 weeks to pay this fee.

Answer: No. According to USBC Rule 100a, section 1g, USBC leagues may adopt other rules, but the adopted rules must not conflict with USBC rules.

Based on the information provided, the proposed rule would conflict with USBC rule 101. Therefore, it would not be an acceptable rule to adopt.

2-Question if a player is found to have bowled for several weeks without
having a membership card ( not payed the fee ), Then pays the fee. Can
there card be back dated to cover the games bowled while the player was
not "certified"?

Answer: No. The membership card would be valid as of the date the bowler purchased it.

3-Question what are the penalties for the player? and or team that used
the player?

Answer: The games are subject to forfeiture. The bowler is considered an ineligible player and an ineligible playerâ€™s score becomes zero, and the games are not included in their
average record. The teamâ€™s score for the forfeited games are also zero. However, the scores bowled by the eligible players are counted toward their averages and any individual prizes.

Thanks for going that extra mile.

You're right. They emphasize that the games are "SUBJECT" to forfeiture. However they say specifically that all those games are made forfeit; that is, the games are all awarded to the opposing team.
The unsanctioned bowler's scores are all zero.
The rest of the sanctioned team's games count toward their individual averages.
All the team's game points bowled with the unsanctioned bowler are forfeit.

"ignorance of the law is no excuse."

star · « **Reply #24 on:** January 17, 2018, 12:34:11 PM »

Quote from: Aloarjr810 on January 17, 2018, 11:18:43 AM

I emailed the USBC and asked this is their response:

This is in reference to your e-mail of January 3, 2018.

I will answer your questions in the order you asked them.

Rule 101 â€“ Membership Fee Payment Requirements say's members must pay or
show proof of payment of USBC dues and the required association
membership fees in effect for the current season before: (1. Adult
membership:) Completion of the bowlerâ€™s first series.

1-Question can a league not follow this rule and have a rule that says
you have for example 4-5 weeks to pay this fee.

Answer: No. According to USBC Rule 100a, section 1g, USBC leagues may adopt other rules, but the adopted rules must not conflict with USBC rules.

Based on the information provided, the proposed rule would conflict with USBC rule 101. Therefore, it would not be an acceptable rule to adopt.

2-Question if a player is found to have bowled for several weeks without
having a membership card ( not payed the fee ), Then pays the fee. Can
there card be back dated to cover the games bowled while the player was
not "certified"?

Answer: No. The membership card would be valid as of the date the bowler purchased it.

3-Question what are the penalties for the player? and or team that used
the player?

Answer: The games are subject to forfeiture. The bowler is considered an ineligible player and an ineligible playerâ€™s score becomes zero, and the games are not included in their
average record. The teamâ€™s score for the forfeited games are also zero. However, the scores bowled by the eligible players are counted toward their averages and any individual prizes.

Question answered. No wiggle room at all.

Seems that your USBC membership is slightly different to ours in that you have 12 months from date of purchase. Ours is 12 months from original purchase date. All following memberships run from that date even if purchased late.

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #25 on:** January 17, 2018, 04:50:19 PM »

Quote from: star on January 17, 2018, 12:34:11 PM

Seems that your USBC membership is slightly different to ours

Okay Let's see if I got what you said here:

Quote

in that you have 12 months from date of purchase.

Your saying the USBC card is good for 12 months from the original date of purchase

Quote

Ours is 12 months from original purchase date.

Your saying the UK card is good for 12 months from the original date of purchase

Quote

All following memberships run from that date even if purchased late.

Membership runs from that date even if purchased late, Something about this don't sound right.

I'm assuming what you mean here is that when someone joins a league and they fill out the sanction card form and don't pay for till say 3 weeks later. Their card is good from the date they filled out the form 3 weeks ago.

USBC Membership info:

Effective Date
Upon receipt of a membership application and the appropriate dues, membership will be valid:
a. For the season starting August 1 through July 31.
b. Through October 1 of the following season for summer leagues and tournaments. Youth who turn
20 during the season are not granted the October 1 extension for tournament play; youth
membership expires July 31 of the season in which they turn 20 years old. If a youth member
bowling in a summer league turns 20 during the season and the league continues beyond July 31,
the bowler may complete the league as a youth bowler.

For membership to be effective as of the date purchased in a league, the league secretary/bowling
center must forward the league membership dues, application cards and league application to the
local association/league processor (youth) within 30 days. Otherwise, membership benefits are not
effective until the date received at the local association office/league processor (youth).

SG17 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 17, 2018, 06:55:36 PM »

if this bowler is in 4 leagues, if even one is in the same local association wouldn't they have paid all national, state and local dues already?

I know we are supposed to fill out the card for each league we join, but national, state and local dues are only each only paid once.

If they are scaming the system to not pay some of the dues (likely local) then screw them and if that hurts the team, so be it. act like an adult and play by the rules.

star · « **Reply #27 on:** January 18, 2018, 02:07:57 AM »

Quote from: Aloarjr810 on January 17, 2018, 04:50:19 PM

Quote from: star on January 17, 2018, 12:34:11 PM
Seems that your USBC membership is slightly different to ours

Okay Let's see if I got what you said here:

Quote
in that you have 12 months from date of purchase.

Your saying the USBC card is good for 12 months from the original date of purchase

Quote
Ours is 12 months from original purchase date.

Your saying the UK card is good for 12 months from the original date of purchase

Quote
All following memberships run from that date even if purchased late.

Membership runs from that date even if purchased late, Something about this don't sound right.

I'm assuming what you mean here is that when someone joins a league and they fill out the sanction card form and don't pay for till say 3 weeks later. Their card is good from the date they filled out the form 3 weeks ago.

USBC Membership info:

Effective Date
Upon receipt of a membership application and the appropriate dues, membership will be valid:
a. For the season starting August 1 through July 31.
b. Through October 1 of the following season for summer leagues and tournaments. Youth who turn
20 during the season are not granted the October 1 extension for tournament play; youth
membership expires July 31 of the season in which they turn 20 years old. If a youth member
bowling in a summer league turns 20 during the season and the league continues beyond July 31,
the bowler may complete the league as a youth bowler.

For membership to be effective as of the date purchased in a league, the league secretary/bowling
center must forward the league membership dues, application cards and league application to the
local association/league processor (youth) within 30 days. Otherwise, membership benefits are not
effective until the date received at the local association office/league processor (youth).

Ok. Example from my friends card.

My friend bought his membership 31 November 2016. It runs out 30 November 2017. His doesn’t need it for his league just senior tournaments. So on January 3 this year he orders his new card. Date of membership now states 31 November 2017 expiry 30 November 2018.

Whatever it says on site. This is how it works.

tommygn · « **Reply #28 on:** January 18, 2018, 08:24:09 AM »

Quote from: carlos on January 16, 2018, 11:26:15 AM

We must have our USBC CARD by the 4th week in our league. She could have forgot all together. She bowls in multiple leagues. There has to be some type of punishment just like if you were to bounce checks. We may have a answer tomorrow

No sanction card at all? Sounds like ALL her bowling this year should be forfeited, in ALL her leagues, not just this one.
.

tommygn · « **Reply #29 on:** January 18, 2018, 08:27:57 AM »

Quote from: star on January 16, 2018, 12:05:43 PM

Adhering strictly to rules is great when you have a thriving community however people bowling several years plus in a 40 week league are a loss to the sport, they were to our small leagues. Like I say if the cards are backdated like in the UK then a simple fine for the offending person would be more in order.

Sorry but a several year plus bowler bowling 40 week leagues, knows the rules. I could understand granting leniency to a first time league bowler because they just didn't know any better, but not the bowler you are describing here.

This whole idea of only following rules that you want to follow is getting out of hand.

No respect for rules = no respect for the game.

Aloarjr810 · « **Reply #30 on:** January 18, 2018, 09:19:48 AM »

Quote from: star on January 18, 2018, 02:07:57 AM

Ok. Example from my friends card.

My friend bought his membership 31 November 2016. It runs out 30 November 2017. His doesnâ€™t need it for his league just senior tournaments. So on January 3 this year he orders his new card. Date of membership now states 31 November 2017 expiry 30 November 2018.

Whatever it says on site. This is how it works.

Okay I follow that,

The BTPA card is effective from "November 31 to November 30 the next year"

The USBC card is effective from "August 1 through July 31 of the next year"

So no difference other than dates used.
-----------
Now your friend
You say he doesn't need a card to bowl league, So I assume it's a unsanctioned league that doesn't require one.

But he does need one to bowl in sanctioned events such as the senior tournaments.

correct?
-----------

If so then from Nov. 30, 2017 to Jan. 2, 2018 he would be unsanctioned and thus couldn't participate legally in sanctioned events (such as senior tournaments during that period) if he couldn't show he had a valid card.

But your saying if he bought a card on Jan. 3, 2018 it's retroactive back to Nov. 30, 2017.

So if he somehow bowled in a sanctioned league/tournament during that unsanctioned period, all would be okay

Here's a scenario on Dec 1, 2017 your friend who doesn't have a valid card somehow bowls in a sanctioned tournament, he wins!! The payoff is on Jan. 3, 2018.

He goes down to pickup his winnings, They say we checked found out you didn't have a valid card so your DQ'd.

He say's wait a minute I'll pay for card right now and they hand him the prize money.

Would you say that was fair to everyone that had their valid card at the time?

or how about this if a card is retroactively valid from the date you buy it back to Nov. 30.

Then conceivably a player (or whole team for that matter) could bowl a entire sanctioned league without cards and if the team comes in first and someone says they didn't have cards so they forfeit.

So they just pay for their cards then and say we still win the cards are retroactive back to the start of the league.

Would that be fair?

I'd just about bet the cards in the UK don't work that way, being retroactive so that the games of someone who bowled without a valid card all of sudden become sanctioned.

Author Topic: No Sanction Card (Read 10667 times)

carlos

No Sanction Card

carlos

Re: No Sanction Card

Bowler19525

Re: No Sanction Card

JOE FALCO

Re: No Sanction Card

psycaz

Re: No Sanction Card

star

Re: No Sanction Card

Aloarjr810

Re: No Sanction Card

JohnP

Re: No Sanction Card

charlest

Re: No Sanction Card

star

Re: No Sanction Card

Aloarjr810

Re: No Sanction Card

SG17

Re: No Sanction Card

star

Re: No Sanction Card

tommygn

Re: No Sanction Card

tommygn

Re: No Sanction Card

Aloarjr810

Re: No Sanction Card