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Author Topic: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?  (Read 1275 times)

T-GOD

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Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« on: August 24, 2003, 09:50:45 PM »
Today, we are being taught that the ball skid, hooks and then rolls. Twenty years ago, we were taught the ball skids, rolls, and then hooks. Which is right..? Are they both right..?

In my opinion, a ball is supposed to skid, roll, then hook. A ball that skids, rolls, and then hooks into the pocket has more power than a ball that rolls into the pocket. A ball that rolls into the pocket is a ball that is rolling out.

The ball cannot hook imediately coming out of a slide/skid. There must be some transition, to where the ball picks up a roll/starts to grab the lane slightly without hooking, before it can hook.

So, if you think the ball hooks then rolls into the pocket, actually the ball skids, rolls, hooks, then rolls/rolls out into the pocket.

Because the balls are hooking, then rolling into the pocket, there is not enough oil, long enough on the lane. This is why we're being taught that the ball skids, hooks, rolls.

The bowler is supposed to apply the roll, but today, because the covers are soo strong, coupled with shorter patterns, the ball provides the roll. This is leading us to the deterioration of the proper technique in releasing a ball and with the game of bowling. =:^D


 

omegabowler

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2003, 01:01:05 PM »
all depends on what you think "Hook" means.( thank you Bill Clinton)

I belive hook is the transition of direction. at some point the ball will stop changing directions then roll in the direction of the change( left or right)

momentum is forward. Roll out is when the ball travel in the direction of momentum and not the transition of hook and roll.

To say skid/ hook/ roll must imply that the skid part is when the momentum of going down lane is still overpowering the balls need to change direction via bowlers axis/tilt/speed/friction. so it could be and early revving ball that may or may not be rolling. it could be revving but not grabbing. ala dragsters tires.


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Tex

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2003, 01:23:22 PM »
I think the technology has made the "skid-hook-roll" more noticable than in the old days as well. With the flare technology came the greater understanding of pin placement, mass bias and all of the exotic drills. This lets us determine with greater accuracy when and where the "hook" occurs. Storm was teaching this several years ago and USA bowling as well, that a ball rolling into the pocket has greater carry potential. In the days of rubber and plastic it may have been true that the original terminology may have been correct or just misunderstood. Computers and video have made it much easier to diagnose the reaction of the ball.

da Shiv

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2003, 02:51:59 PM »
I'm certain about the sequence of events being skid, hook, and roll; but when it comes to getting into the minutiae of "roll,: I have a few questions.  I submitted my question to "Ask Mo" in BTM many months ago, and it initiated a sequence of emails between me and Jim King , BTM's editor.  What I wanted to know is--what, physically, happens at the moment of roll out that differentiates roll out from roll?  Roll is supposed to mean that the ball is in firm physical contact with the lane and has a rotational motion and translational motion in the same direction.  This is supposed to be when you want the ball to hit the pins because it has more resistance to deflection than when it is still hook/skidding.  On the other hand, we are told, you want the ball to hit the pins before it "rolls out," because after roll out, the ball is once again prone to excessive deflection.  This is supposedly a split second window of time.  Mr. King didn't really quite get my question at first and was just explaining "roll" to me, which is a concept I feel I have pretty well in command.  When I finally clarified that what I wanted to know about was "roll out," his emails stopped and I have yet to see the question dealt with in the magazine either.

Here's my theory, and this is something I have come up with on my own, so it may not be correct, but it makes sense to me.  I think this will deal also with the point that T-GOD is making.  I think that when the ball first starts to roll, for most bowlers it is still tilted a bit on it's axis from the tilt that the bowler originally puts on the ball.  That is, it is not rolling on the widest part of it's circumference.  Since it isn't rolling on it's widest part, it can't yet be rolling straight.  Any sphere that is rolling on less than it's widest circumference will still be describing an arc--a sharp arc if it is rolling on a small circumference, or a wide, perhaps barely noticeable arc if it rolling on a circumference just less than it's widest circumference.  This latter is what I think is happening when the ball first starts to roll.  Therefore, it still is turning, or "hooking" a bit into the pocket and is more resistant to deflection.  Because of the increased friction experienced by the ball when it has slowed down and has started to roll, it very, very quickly "tips over" onto it's widest circumference--the full 27 inches.  At this point it really is rolling straight and has "rolled out"--the unfavorable condition of being a "dead" ball and with little resistance to deflection.  As I said before, this is my theory and may not be correct.  I feel that some kind of explanation is necessary to deal with the question of what differentiates roll from roll out.  I think this does it, and also explains why a ball that is rolling also appears (very briefly) to still be hooking.  

 To stretch my point even further, perhaps this also has something to do with the elusive concept of "carry."  If I am correct about the difference between roll and roll out, the time the ball is rolling before it rolls out would be practically negligible.  Perhaps most of the time--even the vast majority of time--we hit the pins while the ball is either still hook/skidding or after it has rolled out.  Maybe it is when we are hitting it just right and actually hitting the pins with a rolling but unrolled out ball that we get the kind of good carry that forgives small mistakes and leads to good scores.  This last addendum is not something I'm particularly sure of or would care to defend, I'm just throwing it out there.  The first part--dealing with what is the difference between roll and roll out--I'm fairly happy with.  Again, it may be wrong, but it deals effectively with a couple of questions.  Since I can't seem to get any of the industry "experts" to deal with the question (I've asked others besides Jim King) I had to come up with something on my own.

I'll be interested to hear what y'all think.

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

Edited on 8/25/2003 3:04 PM
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

da Shiv

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2003, 08:05:49 PM »
I know this is boring, but I didn't put EVERYBODY into a coma, did I?

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

da Shiv

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2003, 09:50:20 PM »
I guess it's about time for me to pick up a copy of "Par Bowling."  I've been hearing for years about what a good book it is, so it's about time I get up off of it and track it down.  

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

channel surfer

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #6 on: August 27, 2003, 12:54:00 AM »
Its Skid/roll/hook

Its not possible for the ball to hook before it can start to roll.
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seadrive

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2003, 09:13:48 AM »
quote:
Its Skid/roll/hook

Its not possible for the ball to hook before it can start to roll.


I guess you learned that in your advanced physics class.

From the Ebonite site, Tech Tips:
quote:
Ball Dynamics & Hook Potential

Brian Pursel: Product Manager

When watching a bowling ball roll down the lane, it is easy to overlook the forces at work within the ball. The ball is round, and the bowler imparts revolutions, axis rotation, axis tilt and ball speed. The round ball undergoes a transition from skid to hook to forward roll.(emphasis added)

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BackToBasics

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2003, 10:20:59 AM »
A ball skids, hooks and rolls.  Hook is defined as the transition when the rotational vector is merging with the translational vector.  Basically, as the ball encounters friction, it will be begin to travel in the direction of it's rotation.  Once these two vectors match, the ball is rolling.  The optimum point is to have this point be right at impact as this is when the ball has it's highest rev rate and power.

Magic Carpet

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2003, 10:27:45 AM »
Great discussion guys.
The problem is, I think we are mixing together real terms in physics with made up terms by bowlers.  You would have to define each term before you could truly answer the question. I think you would be hard pressed to to find terms like "hook out and roll out" in a physics book.
I think da Shiv pretty much has it pegged about as well as it could be without defining the terms involved. I would change "tilt" to axis rotation though. Not many people do, but you could actually throw a ball with zero tilt from the time the ball leaves the hand and hook the lane.

As for the secret of carry that is not a constant ether. The best attitude for your ball from 3 feet before the head pin and the point of contact will depend on a lot of factors. I just call the whole above topic "burn rate".
Just what we need....another made up term.

 Getting the burn rate right is the secret of carry. The burn rate is the hardest thing for me to teach / hardest thing for most people to see and understand. How do you teach someone something if they can't see it.  

You will carry best on some conditions if the ball starts to burn early and on other conditions if the ball waits until the last second. Getting the burn rate right is what gives you the biggest pocket and the most room for mistakes.

I always love it when people tell me "it's easy to get to the pocket in that house but you just can't carry". That's a person that does not understand or see burn rate....and a load of other things most likely.

But this is what makes the sport fun for me. The more complicated the better.

This is also what makes this board so great...people seeking knowledge and people sharing knowledge. So they won't be the guy that says..."I can't carry in that house".

Ron Clifton


Phillip Marlowe

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2003, 11:15:40 AM »
I am not certain I understand what everyone has written here.  Here is my take on this issue:  The ball initially "skids" on oiled lanes, that is, whatever "roll" or rotation the bowler has imparted does not "grab" the lane to any significant degree and there is relatively little friction between the ball surface and the lane.  This means that the initial direction, speed of the shot is what is governing its path, by and large.  

At some point, the ball starts to "grip" the lane and the revolutions imparted by the bowler at the release point begin to take effect.  The ball is "rolling" and "hooking" at that point, unless the bowler released the ball in such a way that there is a pure end-over-end roll.  Because the "roll rate" is still partially governed by the release the bowler put on the ball, we say the ball hasn't "rolled out".  I also think this phase lasts longer than a brief second.  What you want to do is reach the pins at a point before the next stage, preferably somewhere in the middle of the bell curve of where the revolutions imparted by the bowler are still having an impact on the speed, and direction of the ball, because the closer one gets to the end of the bell curve, the less energy is generated at the pins.  And that middle of the curve isn't a brief second either.

Finally, the ball reaches the point where the roll or number and direction of the revolutions is governed solely by the balls momentum and the natural friction between the surfaces (residual momentum and tilt of the lane, if any).  It is at this point we say that the ball has "rolled out", which is of course a non-sequitor.

So, it really is skid, roll, roll-out.  In my humble opinion.
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Edited on 8/27/2003 11:27 AM
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Michael DeSantis

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2003, 12:09:55 PM »
IMHO it is skid, roll, hook and then roll again.
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da Shiv

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2003, 12:36:20 PM »
This is more like it!

king of the mill--
     Yeah, I was disappointed that Jim King dropped the discussion rather than acknowledge that maybe he just didn't know the answer to the question.  I've been further disappointed that it never got into the magazine either.   If there's one person who is likely to know exactly what happens to differentiate roll from roll out and be willing to go out on a limb and explain it, it's Mo.  If you are going to have Mo in to the shop, I'd appreciate it if you could drop me a note in case I miss any flyers or advertising about it.  Where's the Warren shop?

 Since you brought it up, BTM's latest habit of quoting measurements of "flare in the oil" and then saying that the ball must still have plenty of flare left for the dry has me flummoxed a bit.  Now it seems as if all of the reviews are giving all of the balls two or three inches of flare, and then the charts give them 5-7 inches of flare.  This is not only confusing, but begs the question of what difference does it make how much flare the ball has in the dry when it's in the oil that you need it?

But, back to the issue at hand.  I've said about my whole piece on the subject, but I'm finding the discussion very interesting.  I hope there's more!

Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top

10 In The Pit

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2003, 11:45:15 PM »
Well, I'll throw my 2 cents worth into the mix as well.  My coach (who was a good stroker style) always said "skid, hook, and roll" in that order.  I think that there might be some confusion in the term "roll" when discussing this event.  Some people think of roll as being a roll-out, but the ball actually gets into a forward roll before it ever rolls out (in my opinion).  Most power players never see the roll-out phase, as their ball is still rotating enough that it still appears to be spinning, although it is actually rolling.

Anyway, I can see where there is room for some confusion among the terms and the actual process that the ball goes through as it travels down the lane.  But, I'll cast my vote for skid-hook-roll.

T-GOD

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Re: Skid, Hook, Roll or Skid, Roll, Hook..?
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2003, 10:44:07 AM »
Seadrive,  
quote:
From the Ebonite site, Tech Tips:The round ball undergoes a transition from skid to hook to forward roll.
I never knew Ebonite taught an advanced physics class..?

I guess a car moving forward will turn on ice immediately after the wheels stop spinning..? =:^D