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Author Topic: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot  (Read 3033 times)

Aloarjr810

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So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« on: December 05, 2017, 10:07:11 AM »
Phil Cardinale's did a FB live feed shot on Dec. 1st in it he tells what he thinks about urethane and why Radical won't have a urethane ball (at least at the moment).


See about the 17min. mark
https://www.facebook.com/radical.bowling.technologies/videos/1490117054441795/

basically it boiled down to

1-Radical won't have a Urethane (Right Now)
2-People use Urethane as a crutch.
3-You can use a resin ball with a mild drilling and a surface change and it won't ruin the shot as bad as Urethane will.
4-But if your on Radical staff and you want to use Urethane Brunswick makes real good ones.
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HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2017, 09:53:19 AM »
Urethane is ton of fun to throw and awesome for practice so I recommend at least one urethane ball for anyone with an arsenal over 3 or 4 balls or so.  I will admit I don't use urethane often for league as I don't have the hand and pretty much have a hard ceiling of 210 to 215 with urethane which isn't the case with reactives.  I am more consistent with urethane which means perhaps I should use it for league but its a fun league with wife so love the rush of a 230+ game occasionally.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 09:57:22 AM by HackJandy »
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Impending Doom

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #47 on: December 07, 2017, 10:05:07 AM »
I have a urethane. I love my urethane. I don't go anywhere without it. I will bump right up against the wet dry and watch it smooth everything out. Then once that ball isn't going thru the pins right, move left and use resin. For me always being trapped in tweener hell, when I can smooth out the reaction, I will. I can ball up to an X to keep a smoother shape with better hit, or if I need to go more left to right, a Honey Badger. Having a ball that will keep you out of trouble is more important than you think.
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newguy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #48 on: December 07, 2017, 11:01:37 AM »
Phil Cardinale's did a FB live feed shot on Dec. 1st in it he tells what he thinks about urethane and why Radical won't have a urethane ball (at least at the moment).


See about the 17min. mark
https://www.facebook.com/radical.bowling.technologies/videos/1490117054441795/

basically it boiled down to

1-Radical won't have a Urethane (Right Now)
2-People use Urethane as a crutch.
3-You can use a resin ball with a mild drilling and a surface change and it won't ruin the shot as bad as Urethane will.
4-But if your on Radical staff and you want to use Urethane Brunswick makes real good ones.

If you go back and listen again you will find I didn't say urethane was a crutch, I said people use it as a crutch. you also left out the part where I eluded to them saying when they bowl bad they say they had to use urethane especially in league. That was the crutch, not the ball the excuse. My opinion, i am entitled to have one, apparently everyone on the internet does.
Part 2 was that there are low strength resin balls that can be drilled to roll like urethane that wont blow open the pattern. That's a fact we have done tests and studies.

Regarding the Cracked ball in the post, 900 Global built that ball, I had reasons for leaving and licensing the brand to Brunswick, quality was one of them.

I do believe you have to listen to the entire Face Book post, people ask me questions I give them upfront answers, I could do what the competition does and avoid this website or give you the cookie cutter answer.

Urethane balls for the average customer, average league bowler is a novelty, most did not bowl with urethane when it first came out so it's new to them. I also stated that if you were a high rev player it was an option.

The Urethane market is relatively small, not a lot of room for technology, and all my companies have been high tech companies so its not a core competency for my brands, there are way too many out there and for the most part they all do the same thing.

I don't mind getting called out but at least get all the fact out.

Lots of other opinions about Mo and Richie which had nothing to do with the initial post at all, but than again that's the internet for you.

HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #49 on: December 07, 2017, 11:33:46 AM »
Phil Cardinale's did a FB live feed shot on Dec. 1st in it he tells what he thinks about urethane and why Radical won't have a urethane ball (at least at the moment).


See about the 17min. mark
https://www.facebook.com/radical.bowling.technologies/videos/1490117054441795/

basically it boiled down to

1-Radical won't have a Urethane (Right Now)
2-People use Urethane as a crutch.
3-You can use a resin ball with a mild drilling and a surface change and it won't ruin the shot as bad as Urethane will.
4-But if your on Radical staff and you want to use Urethane Brunswick makes real good ones.

If you go back and listen again you will find I didn't say urethane was a crutch, I said people use it as a crutch. you also left out the part where I eluded to them saying when they bowl bad they say they had to use urethane especially in league. That was the crutch, not the ball the excuse. My opinion, i am entitled to have one, apparently everyone on the internet does.
Part 2 was that there are low strength resin balls that can be drilled to roll like urethane that wont blow open the pattern. That's a fact we have done tests and studies.

Regarding the Cracked ball in the post, 900 Global built that ball, I had reasons for leaving and licensing the brand to Brunswick, quality was one of them.

I do believe you have to listen to the entire Face Book post, people ask me questions I give them upfront answers, I could do what the competition does and avoid this website or give you the cookie cutter answer.

Urethane balls for the average customer, average league bowler is a novelty, most did not bowl with urethane when it first came out so it's new to them. I also stated that if you were a high rev player it was an option.

The Urethane market is relatively small, not a lot of room for technology, and all my companies have been high tech companies so its not a core competency for my brands, there are way too many out there and for the most part they all do the same thing.

I don't mind getting called out but at least get all the fact out.

Lots of other opinions about Mo and Richie which had nothing to do with the initial post at all, but than again that's the internet for you.

Thanks for responding.  Yeah easy to get the internet going off in tangents (me especially I suppose, guess shouldn't have thrown poop at Ritchie but imo his recent pieces and attitude just plain suck, which the market kind of agrees with).  Lot of urethane lovers to be found (at least on here) who often get also the misinformation of how its ruining the shot from other less knowledgeable bowlers often with Sure Locks so can be a touchy topic (a lot of bowlers can't tell difference between carry down and burning up the end of a pattern).  Do love your pieces so keep up the good work.  Honestly as you say plenty of other options out there for urethane.  Some of us really need the strong asyms so not crying personally about no Radical urethane but I also don't believe weak reactives can ever replace it.  Love my More Cash but love my Crow as well.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:07:58 PM by HackJandy »
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tommygn

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2017, 12:38:06 PM »
Lot of urethane lovers to be found (at least on here) who often get also the misinformation of how its ruining the shot from other less knowledgeable bowlers often with Sure Locks so can be a touchy topic (a lot of bowlers can't tell difference between carry down and burning up the end of a pattern). 

Urethane absolutely carry's oil down the lane because the cover doesn't allow it to soak into the ball, which can absolutely "ruin" a high volume pattern, especially if it is early in the block. That's fact, not "less knowledgeable" bowlers who don't know the difference between carrydown and balls "slowing down" too soon. Those oil streaks that are on the lane, beyond the length of the pattern, yes, it's carrydown. Walk down the gutter cap sometime past the end of the pattern, and view it for yourself.


What Mr. Cardinale said in his Facebook post, was %100 accurate. It is a crutch, because instead of training yourself to be more up the back of the ball, or taking hand out of it, bowlers today use their same release, and just throw urethane to close down their angles.

With all that said, I use urethane on short patterns, and will continue to do so, because it makes it easier for me to use stronger drillings and will give me a slightly wider pocket on said short patterns. I'm certainly not ignorant to the fact that it's a crutch for me to do so (because it's easier for me to throw it slower and be consistent, than throw it 100mph), or to the fact that I carry oil down the lane. Being on the left, my use of urethane affects fewer people, and can sometimes help create some hold area, though.



http://www.kegel.net/wpa/breakdown-and-carrydown-then-and-now

« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 12:49:40 PM by tommygn »
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spmcgivern

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #51 on: December 07, 2017, 02:14:47 PM »
Calling urethane a crutch for any pattern is akin to calling super covers a crutch for heavy oil patterns.  Urethane is a tool, nothing more.  It may not be a tool many bowlers can take full advantage of, but neither are sanded down super covers.

avabob

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #52 on: December 07, 2017, 02:49:26 PM »
Exactly.  Why is throwing a ball the creates more Carry down any different the using extreme surface to blow up the heads and the pattern. 

tommygn

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2017, 02:53:45 PM »
Calling urethane a crutch for any pattern is akin to calling super covers a crutch for heavy oil patterns.  Urethane is a tool, nothing more.  It may not be a tool many bowlers can take full advantage of, but neither are sanded down super covers.

People with ultra high rev rates are using urethane on volumes of oil that are 5 to 10 times more than what was used when urethane was introduced and in play as an industry standard. If these same people used urethane on the volumes of oil, that urethane was originally used on, they wouldn't be able to keep the ball on the lane.

Have your bowling center us a shot with about 3-4ml total of "today's oil" at about 25-30 feet in length, on a synthetic lane, and that maybe, would be close to replicating the volumes and viscosity of a 7-9ml lane oil condition on wood, back in the 1980's. Then you will "see" the "crutch".
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 04:14:19 PM by tommygn »
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tommygn

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2017, 02:56:26 PM »
Exactly.  Why is throwing a ball the creates more Carry down any different the using extreme surface to blow up the heads and the pattern. 



First off, by nature they are the exact opposite.

Second of all, no one said using 360 grit on an ultra high performance oil soaking cover stock to blow up patterns, was a good thing, either. Let's not put words in people's mouths.
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HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2017, 03:07:19 PM »
A few points from this article below (well worth a read).  I won't argue that urethane doesn't carry down oil because it does.  I will argue with modern reactives that a single bowler in a three game set with urethane can carry down enough oil to affect these oil slurping reactives much at all (unless they are perhaps exactly on your line). I will also argue another bowler with an oiler can affect your shot a lot more than a urethane ball bowler will by drying out the end of the pattern near your breakpoint and causing dreaded over under.

"So, in an effort to resolve this issue once and for all, I decided to take a factual, logical, scientific approach to carrydown.

Fact #1: The USBC requires that a minimum of three units of oil be used from gutter to gutter for the entire length of the oil pattern.

Fact #2: We have all thrown, or seen others throw, shots that miss so far to the outside of the lane that we feared that they were going in the gutter, only to see them make a violent turn back toward the pins, often resulting in a strike.

Logical Conclusion #1: Three units of oil is not enough volume to affect modern reactive bowling balls.

With this in mind, I enlisted the gracious aid of Dennis Mathews, the Bowling Operations Manager at Red Rock Lanes in Las Vegas, as well as Head Mechanic Jeff Zawislak, who took a tape reading of the streaks of oil coming off of the end of the pattern following 24 games of league play.

Please note that at only one spot on the lane—the nine board on the right side—was there two units of oil present in the streak. Everywhere else on the lane, the streaks measured less than two units of oil, with most being less than one unit in volume.

Logical Conclusion #2: The volume of oil present in streaks of “carrydown” is insufficient to affect the motion of reactive resin balls during league play. In other words, carrydown is no longer a significant factor in modern bowling. "


(edit:  please note plenty of those league players were throwing at least plastic if not urethane for spares).

https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling-tips/the-dead-zone-revisited/

https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling-tips/el-dorado-and-el-diablo/
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:25:41 PM by HackJandy »
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tommygn

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2017, 03:30:21 PM »
Hackjandy,

If you are on Facebook, I would suggest you go to kegel's Facebook page, and scroll down a bit, and you will find their "testing" of what low flaring urethane does to high volume oil patterns. It was posted about or around mid November.

The other thing you guys are missing is, Phil was talking about what happened on tour at the wsob, on high volume ultra slick oil. You are comparing what can happen to a lane that has minimal oil on the outside of the lane. Not the same thing. Apples and oranges.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:36:23 PM by tommygn »
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Aloarjr810

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #57 on: December 07, 2017, 03:32:49 PM »
All that ruins shot nonsense is a bunch of whining players who either don't know how to adjust or just don't want to have to do it.

It's like in league the players that whine about others playing the same line as "ME" and ruining "MY" shot. Their pushing oil into "MY" breakpoint and How they should be playing a different line than "MINE".

I'm sure the guys in the video that said the Urethane guys ruined the shot for them , Always leave pristine conditions for the guys who follow them.



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HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #58 on: December 07, 2017, 03:35:04 PM »
Hackjandy,

If you are on Facebook, I would suggest you go to kegel's Facebook page, and scroll down a bit, and you will find their "testing" of what low flaring urethane does to high volume oil patterns. It was posted about or around mid November.

Not all urethane is low flare these days.  That said I am going to throw whatever damn ball I want and unless USBC makes it illegal my opponents can go take a flying fsck.  Modern reactives hook in the oil period and they soak up oil.  They are affected a lot more by early friction then they are late oil (which gets absorbed by the reactives anyway).  In fact if it screws the opponent's shot its double bonus.  Lol my wife throws plastic anyway so there is an I in team.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:39:34 PM by HackJandy »
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tommygn

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #59 on: December 07, 2017, 03:40:15 PM »
Hackjandy,

If you are on Facebook, I would suggest you go to kegel's Facebook page, and scroll down a bit, and you will find their "testing" of what low flaring urethane does to high volume oil patterns. It was posted about or around mid November.

Not all urethane is low flare these days.  That said I am going to throw whatever damn ball I want and unless USBC makes it illegal my opponents can go take a flying fsck.  Modern reactives hook in the oil period and they soak up oil.  They are affected a lot more by early friction then they are late oil.  In fact if it screws the opponent's shot its double bonus.


Did you go to Facebook and look at their testing data?

And on what board does your wife's plastic bowling ball exit the pattern?  I bet not on the traditional breakpoint as everyone else's ball. Apples and oranges when comparing what happened at the wsob, and Phil's statement.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 03:44:05 PM by tommygn »
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HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #60 on: December 07, 2017, 03:42:48 PM »
Hackjandy,

If you are on Facebook, I would suggest you go to kegel's Facebook page, and scroll down a bit, and you will find their "testing" of what low flaring urethane does to high volume oil patterns. It was posted about or around mid November.

Not all urethane is low flare these days.  That said I am going to throw whatever damn ball I want and unless USBC makes it illegal my opponents can go take a flying fsck.  Modern reactives hook in the oil period and they soak up oil.  They are affected a lot more by early friction then they are late oil.  In fact if it screws the opponent's shot its double bonus.


Did you go to Facebook and look at their testing data?

I would mess up people's line in shadow bowling with my epoxy ball not my urethane.  If you bowl doubles not only is league fast and fun but the shot seldom gets messed up as well.

(edited: to be a little less obnoxious about how much I truly care about others shot and feelings lol).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 07:11:55 PM by HackJandy »
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