win a ball from Bowling.com
Share to Facebook Share to Twitter Email This More...


Author Topic: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot (Read 2975 times)

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1998
  • Alley Katz Strike!
So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
on: December 05, 2017, 10:07:11 AM
Phil Cardinale's did a FB live feed shot on Dec. 1st in it he tells what he thinks about urethane and why Radical won't have a urethane ball (at least at the moment).


See about the 17min. mark
https://www.facebook.com/radical.bowling.technologies/videos/1490117054441795/

basically it boiled down to

1-Radical won't have a Urethane (Right Now)
2-People use Urethane as a crutch.
3-You can use a resin ball with a mild drilling and a surface change and it won't ruin the shot as bad as Urethane will.
4-But if your on Radical staff and you want to use Urethane Brunswick makes real good ones.
Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1998
  • Alley Katz Strike!
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #61 on: December 07, 2017, 03:47:31 PM
Okay I think the train has got off the tracks and is starting to burn.
Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

HackJandy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Cut to black. Audience goes f***ing apesh*t
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #62 on: December 07, 2017, 04:09:45 PM
I had to go and be that guy. :-[  Oh well.  Still love urethane and love bowling.  Competition and highest score possible at all times not always the only goal to me.  Watching my Ogre Urethane take out splits as good as stringing strikes often.  Still believe urethane gets a bad rap when they are some of the most fun pieces you can own.
Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 04:15:06 PM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy, Blue, Black Hammers
Faball Red Razor 
AMF Sumo
AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Visionary The Crow
Visionary Ogre Urethane
C300 EPX T1 and some boring reactives

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2081
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #63 on: December 07, 2017, 04:17:10 PM
Just a little side note on the 3 unit minimum.  That rule came out after quite a bit of study by the ABC.  Unfortunately for the ABC resin balls made their appearance shortly after the 3 unit rule.  They probably should have gon to something lik e 5-6 units in light of new technologies.

HackJandy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Cut to black. Audience goes f***ing apesh*t
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #64 on: December 07, 2017, 04:20:09 PM
Just a little side note on the 3 unit minimum.  That rule came out after quite a bit of study by the ABC.  Unfortunately for the ABC resin balls made their appearance shortly after the 3 unit rule.  They probably should have gon to something lik e 5-6 units in light of new technologies.

Yeah kind of what i was saying.  Friction affects reactives a more than oil does. 3 units is nothing really for modern balls.
Faball Burgundy, Blue, Black Hammers
Faball Red Razor 
AMF Sumo
AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Visionary The Crow
Visionary Ogre Urethane
C300 EPX T1 and some boring reactives

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1998
  • Alley Katz Strike!
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #65 on: December 07, 2017, 05:47:42 PM
If you go back and listen again you will find I didn't say urethane was a crutch, I said people use it as a crutch. you also left out the part where I eluded to them saying when they bowl bad they say they had to use urethane especially in league. That was the crutch, not the ball the excuse.


Okay, I listened again "people say "Well I'm throwing a urethane ball' and you said "Big deal""

I don't see how that eludes to them saying when they bowl bad they saying they had to use urethane  especially in league as a excuse for bowling bad.

Maybe instead of eluding to things, just come right out and say it.

Of I course I understand you have to watch what you say, you don't want to alienate any possible customers.

Plus you probably can't say something like "The majority of players don't need a Urethane ball and shouldn't buy them." because of company restrictions you maybe under that limit what youy can say in public that might impact somebodies sales or Radicals should you decide produce one in the future.

Quote
My opinion, i am entitled to have one,
Yes, You are entitled to a opinion no one said you weren't.

Quote
apparently everyone on the internet does.

I'm guessing that's a allusion to something, that we probably shouldn't come right out and say about people on  the internet.

Quote
Part 2 was that there are low strength resin balls that can be drilled to roll like urethane that wont blow open the pattern. That's a fact we have done tests and studies.

As for Urethane ruining the shot, Resin balls ruin a shot too. Just in a different way, for somebody else.

Learn to adjust to the conditions, don't complain about the guy ahead of you and how he didn't leave perfect conditions that suited your shot.

To many players today expect pristine conditions every time they make a shot.

If they don't get those perfect condition's, then that's their excuse (how ever they felt it was caused) for their bowling bad "Their crutch"

Quote
Urethane balls for the average customer, average league bowler is a novelty, most did not bowl with urethane when it first came out so it's new to them.

An just to note, I'm by no means a great bowler or have ever claimed to be. But I've been around a long time, see a lot and heard lot, I started out with polyester, my first urethane was a Angle LD and several others after that (in fact I still have my Org. Faball Burgundy Hammer from back in the day.).





Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 06:11:05 PM by Aloarjr810
Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

lilpossum1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 880
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #66 on: December 07, 2017, 06:07:53 PM
I'm far from a 240 average boarder, but I will insist that carry down does exist. I don't care what anyone says. But it doesn't exist in most shots that people see. I bowl in a house with wooden lanes where the oil machine doesn't strip. They strip fully on Wednesdays, back 10 or 15' on Thursdays, and never again. Because of the wooden lanes, the volume is pretty decent to start with. And it keeps building night after night in the heads and mids, except for what the reactivate balls take off. If they get a little of open bowling, the plastic house balls carry down a lot of oil by the time sunday rolls around. Pun completely intended. With fresh heads, there are times we can barely get a ball to wiggle or finish. But these are all conditions that are perfect to create the carry down. 99.99999% of bowlers will never see a scenario to create those conditions, especially not with any regularity.

Aloarjr810

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1998
  • Alley Katz Strike!
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #67 on: December 07, 2017, 06:21:21 PM
I'm far from a 240 average boarder, but I will insist that carry down does exist. I don't care what anyone says. But it doesn't exist in most shots that people see.

Of course there's carrydown, all anyone has to do is walk down the lanes after a league and look.

The real debate is whether or not it's enough to affect modern bowling balls.



Aloarjr810
----------
Click For My Grip

HackJandy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Cut to black. Audience goes f***ing apesh*t
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #68 on: December 07, 2017, 07:16:14 PM
I'm far from a 240 average boarder, but I will insist that carry down does exist. I don't care what anyone says. But it doesn't exist in most shots that people see. I bowl in a house with wooden lanes where the oil machine doesn't strip. They strip fully on Wednesdays, back 10 or 15' on Thursdays, and never again. Because of the wooden lanes, the volume is pretty decent to start with. And it keeps building night after night in the heads and mids, except for what the reactivate balls take off. If they get a little of open bowling, the plastic house balls carry down a lot of oil by the time sunday rolls around. Pun completely intended. With fresh heads, there are times we can barely get a ball to wiggle or finish. But these are all conditions that are perfect to create the carry down. 99.99999% of bowlers will never see a scenario to create those conditions, especially not with any regularity.

For league probably. I will also readily admit open bowling after a birthday party yes you may well see some shot affecting carry down since they dont make 6lb Sure Locks.
Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 07:18:10 PM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy, Blue, Black Hammers
Faball Red Razor 
AMF Sumo
AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Visionary The Crow
Visionary Ogre Urethane
C300 EPX T1 and some boring reactives

giddyupddp

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #69 on: December 08, 2017, 12:06:51 PM
Carry Down definitely still exists even is some leagues. This season I bowl in a for fun small mixed 5 person league where one team 3 bowlers use plastic and carry down does happen. Not necessarily a bad thing for me every time as I think I had my best nite in that league 1 of 2 times we bowled them as I didn't have to migrate as far left in the last game as most nites in this particular house.

I'm far from a 240 average boarder, but I will insist that carry down does exist. I don't care what anyone says. But it doesn't exist in most shots that people see. I bowl in a house with wooden lanes where the oil machine doesn't strip. They strip fully on Wednesdays, back 10 or 15' on Thursdays, and never again. Because of the wooden lanes, the volume is pretty decent to start with. And it keeps building night after night in the heads and mids, except for what the reactivate balls take off. If they get a little of open bowling, the plastic house balls carry down a lot of oil by the time sunday rolls around. Pun completely intended. With fresh heads, there are times we can barely get a ball to wiggle or finish. But these are all conditions that are perfect to create the carry down. 99.99999% of bowlers will never see a scenario to create those conditions, especially not with any regularity.

For league probably. I will also readily admit open bowling after a birthday party yes you may well see some shot affecting carry down since they dont make 6lb Sure Locks.

Impending Doom

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4625
  • #ihate1500polished
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #70 on: December 08, 2017, 01:50:53 PM
The argument isn't if carrydown exists, but if it exists when people are beating up a pattern with resin. If you're using plastic, there's gonna be carrydown. Urethane, there's going to be carrydown ( less than plastic, but a little) Resin? There's the debate. Although the people that can't move their feet left of the big dot thinks it's carrydown when their ball doesn't finish, it's usually that the heads are beat up and the ball is puking at your foot.
Go Global or Go Home!
-------------------------------------------------------------------

HackJandy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Cut to black. Audience goes f***ing apesh*t
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #71 on: December 08, 2017, 01:51:26 PM
Carry Down definitely still exists even is some leagues. This season I bowl in a for fun small mixed 5 person league where one team 3 bowlers use plastic and carry down does happen. Not necessarily a bad thing for me every time as I think I had my best nite in that league 1 of 2 times we bowled them as I didn't have to migrate as far left in the last game as most nites in this particular house.

I'm far from a 240 average boarder, but I will insist that carry down does exist. I don't care what anyone says. But it doesn't exist in most shots that people see. I bowl in a house with wooden lanes where the oil machine doesn't strip. They strip fully on Wednesdays, back 10 or 15' on Thursdays, and never again. Because of the wooden lanes, the volume is pretty decent to start with. And it keeps building night after night in the heads and mids, except for what the reactivate balls take off. If they get a little of open bowling, the plastic house balls carry down a lot of oil by the time sunday rolls around. Pun completely intended. With fresh heads, there are times we can barely get a ball to wiggle or finish. But these are all conditions that are perfect to create the carry down. 99.99999% of bowlers will never see a scenario to create those conditions, especially not with any regularity.

For league probably. I will also readily admit open bowling after a birthday party yes you may well see some shot affecting carry down since they dont make 6lb Sure Locks.

Which is kind of my point.  Urethane does affect the shot some but it doesn't destroy it especially if a bowler is capable of adjusting at all.  Modern reactive bowling balls handle late light oil much better than early friction generally.
Last Edit: December 08, 2017, 01:54:59 PM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy, Blue, Black Hammers
Faball Red Razor 
AMF Sumo
AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Visionary The Crow
Visionary Ogre Urethane
C300 EPX T1 and some boring reactives

Juggernaut

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6043
  • SO, THIS IS BOWLING?
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #72 on: December 08, 2017, 04:48:11 PM
Using urethane, I get carry down. My ball starts to fade, and starts to lose entry angle. I have to move out into the dry a bit more, and play a bit more direct, and throw it REAL good. I can do that

BUT

 Usually, the guys on the other team, using resin, say The shot tightened up, move their feet a little, and DO NOT lose their entry angle.

 My urethane carries down enough oil to effect its own reaction adversely, but NOT enough to kill the reaction of a well thrown, good resin ball. In fact, it often seems like their shot holds up better when Im throwing urethane. I hardly ever hear complaints of the shot burning up when Im using urethane, but I do when Im using resin.

 Resin changes the condition faster, AND is effected more by those changes, than urethane do.

 With urethane, the oil carries down, the shot tightens up, and you have to adjust accordingly. Usually, that means moving into the dry a bit, using speed control to moderate the reaction, and throw it off your hand really nice.

 With resin, the oil dissipates more than anything else, the shot blows open, and you have to adjust accordingly. Usually, that means moving deeper, using speed control to keep it from over reacting, and make sure not to over hit the release.

 A ball is just a tool. It does what it does. 
 Sometimes, you need a pair of pliers, sometimes, you need a wrench.
 Which one is up to you, but dont gripe if the other guy is a better mechanic than you.

avabob

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2081
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #73 on: December 09, 2017, 10:10:09 AM
Very good points juggernaut.  I made s bit of a long winded post in another thread chronicling what you just said.  Carrydown impacts urethane ball reaction much more than it impacts resin

HackJandy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 932
  • Cut to black. Audience goes f***ing apesh*t
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #74 on: December 09, 2017, 11:54:43 AM
Yep agree fully with what both of you are saying.  There was a bit of an implicit admission that market forces may have affected the original argument so may well be a bit of sour grapes kind of deal.  I agree urethane is  condition specific for majority of bowlers out there and perhaps the urethane craze is overblown (but love throwing it myself for fun) but I don't buy how it ruins anything but perhaps limiting the original bowler's score if they use it when they shouldn't be.
Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 12:26:28 PM by HackJandy
Faball Burgundy, Blue, Black Hammers
Faball Red Razor 
AMF Sumo
AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Visionary The Crow
Visionary Ogre Urethane
C300 EPX T1 and some boring reactives

ccrider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2186
Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
Reply #75 on: December 11, 2017, 03:14:39 PM
I think you guys hit it square. When I use urethane, after the heads begin to go and there is some hold, I find myself moving right into the dry while the resin users that can throw it are moving left.

On a fresh shot I have to play more direct but dont see the urethane doing nearly as much damage to the fresh as the super soaker resins.