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Author Topic: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot  (Read 2779 times)

Aloarjr810

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So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« on: December 05, 2017, 10:07:11 AM »
Phil Cardinale's did a FB live feed shot on Dec. 1st in it he tells what he thinks about urethane and why Radical won't have a urethane ball (at least at the moment).


See about the 17min. mark
https://www.facebook.com/radical.bowling.technologies/videos/1490117054441795/

basically it boiled down to

1-Radical won't have a Urethane (Right Now)
2-People use Urethane as a crutch.
3-You can use a resin ball with a mild drilling and a surface change and it won't ruin the shot as bad as Urethane will.
4-But if your on Radical staff and you want to use Urethane Brunswick makes real good ones.
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Bowl_Freak

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 07:57:24 AM »
I met Phil when i was in San Antonio working and bowled in a league at Astro for a season. This was when Radical was with 900Global and everything was small and local. He was kind enough to put me on staff back then and was a real down to earth type of guy. I haven't talked to him after i moved back to Dallas area and its been awhile. May have been the move from 900Global to Brunswick, going small time to the big time to make him change. Then again, i haven't talked to him in years. But Phil has always been nice to me. As far as Mo goes, i have no idea what planet he is from.

HankScorpio

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2017, 10:05:17 AM »
As charlest mentioned, Mo is the worst communicator in the industry. That pairs poorly with his arrogance - if you don’t understand what he’s saying, he treats you like an idiot. That only gets worse if you disagree with what he’s saying. Mo is exceptionally smart, but he will irritate you with condescending tones long before you absorb anything from him.

His business failures can be mostly traced back to his arrogance, IMO. Morich was a compilation of balls that the average person didn’t know how to use and the average pro shop didn’t know how to drill. Rather than adapt, he assumed people would catch up to his mindset. They didn’t.

Some of that is still apparent in Radical. For instances, the Fix marketing (asym if drilled pin up, sym if drilled pin down) is ineffective for 95% of bowlers out there. While most companies have seemed to revert to core designs that are driller-friendly, Mo has hitched his wagon to driller-versatile. Still, Phil seems to have had at least some effect on Mo to push out ball motions that the market wants to see. Hiding Mo in the back doesn’t hurt either.

In the last 5 years, I’ve taken lessons with Mo and several other top coaches. Mo was the only experience that I took nothing away from. His approach is to tell you what youre doing wrong in his own jargon, but not actually explain what he wants you to do differently or why it’s wrong. Most of that “telling” can be easily construed as “mocking.”  Frankly, I think the only people that enjoy his sense of humor are his cronies on BowlingChat.




HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2017, 10:17:37 AM »
I like Radical balls in general.  At least they aren't rereleasing balls from five plus years ago with a only a new color scheme and with a top shelf price like some of their competitors.  Some innovation is good for the market even if it sometimes misses the mark.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 10:20:30 AM by HackJandy »
Faball Burgundy, Blue, Black Hammers
Faball Red Razor 
AMF Sumo
AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Visionary The Crow
Visionary Ogre Urethane
C300 EPX T1 and some boring reactives

Aloarjr810

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2017, 10:23:39 AM »
Morich was a compilation of balls that the average person didn’t know how to use and the average pro shop didn’t know how to drill.

I'll go with this a lot those morich balls were really picky on how they were drilled.

I had a Morich Labyrinth back when it came out, we drilled it with a pretty standard layout.

The ball wouldn't hook for nothing and it bowtied right in the middle of my middle finger hole.

So we plugged it and redrilled following the Morich drillsheet exactly and then the ball worked.
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HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2017, 10:29:29 AM »
Morich was a compilation of balls that the average person didn’t know how to use and the average pro shop didn’t know how to drill.

I'll go with this a lot those morich balls were really picky on how they were drilled.

I had a Morich Labyrinth back when it came out, we drilled it with a pretty standard layout.

The ball wouldn't hook for nothing and it bowtied right in the middle of my middle finger hole.

So we plugged it and redrilled following the Morich drillsheet exactly and then the ball worked.

Which I guess as mentioned above is why Phil is there to make sure some of the ball they release don't have cores made by aliens.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 10:35:25 AM by HackJandy »
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Faball Red Razor 
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Aloarjr810

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2017, 10:37:30 AM »
I like Radical balls in general.  At least they aren't rereleasing balls from five plus years ago with a only a new color scheme and with a top shelf price like some of their competitors.  Some innovation is good for the market even if it sometimes misses the mark.

Well they can't re-release balls from too far back, The balls before Mo got there were plop for the most part.

I won a Slant HD from radical back then (i think one of the last produce before Mo arrived), it started cracking around the fingerholes after about ten games, we plugged it redrilled and it kept cracking and split with less than 30 games on it.

I watched it over time and it just kept cracking, this is what it looked like just before I threw it out. Even the filler split. The coverstock was just under a 1/4" thick.


After that I wouldn't touch a Radical.

After Mo got there Radicals balls and quality & performance went way up (though they are still eating Motivs dust) so I might would try another one.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 10:50:06 AM by Aloarjr810 »
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HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2017, 10:40:23 AM »
I like Radical balls in general.  At least they aren't rereleasing balls from five plus years ago with a only a new color scheme and with a top shelf price like some of their competitors.  Some innovation is good for the market even if it sometimes misses the mark.

Well they can't re-release balls from too far back, The balls before Mo got there were plop for the most part.

I won a Slant HD from radical back then (i think one of the last produce before Mo arrived), it started cracking around the fingerholes after about ten games, we plugged it redrilled and it kept cracking and split with less than 30 games on it.

I watched it over time and it just kept cracking, this is what it looked like just before I threw it out. Even the filler split. The coverstock was just under a 1/4" thick.


After Mo got there Radicals balls and quality & performance went way up (though they are still eating Motivs dust)

Was that a 900Global poured ball?  Guess Mo is good for something if their balls got way better.  I certainly wouldn't build an arsenal of just Radical balls but for those of us without a lot of hand their balls are sure nice to have on the market.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 10:52:40 AM by HackJandy »
Faball Burgundy, Blue, Black Hammers
Faball Red Razor 
AMF Sumo
AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Visionary The Crow
Visionary Ogre Urethane
C300 EPX T1 and some boring reactives

imagonman

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2017, 10:59:06 AM »
well there's 1 of the main reasons why balls crack/split right there. 1/4" thick covers!!!!! made of brittle Porous material!

Aloarjr810

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2017, 11:02:44 AM »
Was that a 900Global poured ball? 
I know that there were some balls poured by Global for other companies that had problems , Like the Pyramid Blood Moon.

But I don't know about the Radicals or that particular ball.

Quote
Guess Mo is good for something if their balls got way better.

When it comes to balls/cores Mo knows his stuff.
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Aloarjr810

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #40 on: December 06, 2017, 11:08:57 AM »
well there's 1 of the main reasons why balls crack/split right there. 1/4" thick covers!!!!! made of brittle Porous material!

Yes Balls with no filler are way more durable.

IMO if companies didn't want go to no filler, if they just increased the coverstock thickness to like say a 1". They probably would stop a lot of the cracking issues.

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JamminJD

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #41 on: December 06, 2017, 11:20:53 AM »
Was that a 900Global poured ball? 
I know that there were some balls poured by Global for other companies that had problems , Like the Pyramid Blood Moon.

But I don't know about the Radicals or that particular ball.

Quote
Guess Mo is good for something if their balls got way better.

When it comes to balls/cores Mo knows his stuff.

That ball and all the one's before Big B weree poured by 900 Global..

Impending Doom

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #42 on: December 06, 2017, 11:29:29 AM »
None of my 900 Global stuff has cracked...
Go Global or Go Home!
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tkkshop

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #43 on: December 06, 2017, 12:29:47 PM »
The black reax was the first Mo/Brunswick Radical ball. From my understanding, Mo is paid by B to design for Radical. Just what I was told. I have some pics of hollow pin Radical balls, but they are too large to upload. Besides for that, quality seems to be average in my area.

HackJandy

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2017, 12:41:17 PM »
well there's 1 of the main reasons why balls crack/split right there. 1/4" thick covers!!!!! made of brittle Porous material!

Yes Balls with no filler are way more durable.

IMO if companies didn't want go to no filler, if they just increased the coverstock thickness to like say a 1". They probably would stop a lot of the cracking issues.

Which is what (with some other reasons) makes the Honey Badger being 2 piece about the most enticing ball 900 makes imo.  I am sure Brunswick balls crack as well (all manufacturers have bad batches) but I have never seen one and I have seen some seriously old and or well used Brunswick balls including owning one with a 1000+ games on it that spent 5 years unused in a Sonoran desert garage.  All manufacturers have strengths and weaknesses imo which is why as long as I am buying the balls they aren't going to come from one company or even one umbrella of companies.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 12:54:15 PM by HackJandy »
Faball Burgundy, Blue, Black Hammers
Faball Red Razor 
AMF Sumo
AMF Gunsmoke Cobra
Visionary The Crow
Visionary Ogre Urethane
C300 EPX T1 and some boring reactives

ignitebowling

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Re: So Urethane is just a crutch that ruins the shot
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2017, 07:58:57 AM »
Mo is a very smart guy not doubt. It depends on which Mo you talk to as to what information you get. Salesman Mo or bowling guru Mo.

Remember when Morich only made asymmetric core bowling balls? One of the reason which Mo stated online or in a video was because of "todays new oils" that is all bowlers need.

Morich had plenty of very high int diff bowling balls with very aggressive coverstocks and him pushing the dual angle system which eventually lead to many problems.

Proshops didn't understand the system and ended up with less then desirable results. Dual angle didn't create anything new for layouts that shops haven't seen before. It gave better information for expectations on results from layouts when drilling a ball.  A 5" pin to pap layout with the pin above the ring finger and the mb by the thumb didn't change just because it was written as 60 x 5 x 45 etc.

Considering many of the layout suggestions Mo used and posted about involved 3-4" pin to pap on these balls the results for many were likely very bad. That is a lot of coverstock, a lot of flare, and a lot of int diff to go wrong more then right.

Then magically everything changed (cut cost) when the "oils changed" and now they started using "Mo's big symmetric core" which you should recognize from many of Brunswicks releases. Nothing changed, only loss of revenue.

Urethane isn't a must have for most. It is an option, but for a very small market. Radical doesn't need a urethane ball and neither does DV8 because Brunswick now makes one. Despite what many think,it is all the same coming from under one roof. The staffer finally got their urethane ball  in the Brunswick family and now everything as we know it for the PBA and others should change completely......



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