Author Topic: USBC E-mail surveys (Read 12355 times)

the_scarlet_pumpernickel · « **on:** April 19, 2017, 10:34:57 AM »

Did anyone else get one of these surveys about lane conditions, bowling equipment? you should check your e-mail to see if you got one. It asked a lot of questions about whether bowling was challenging enough, whether lane conditions are too easy. What is everyone's take on this survey? was it good enough? any questions you would have asked, not asked? did you even get it? do you think they will really use it's results to a positive end?

I think they are just confirming on paper what everyone already thinks. There's no way they don't know what bowlers have been saying about league vs. pro lane conditions, resin balls/dynamic cores being too strong, 2 handed good or bad etc... I would like to have seen more detailed questions about ball durability, which is arguably not as good anymore.

giddyupddp · « **Reply #1 on:** April 19, 2017, 10:58:58 AM »

I rcvd the survey yesterday and I was honestly surprised that they are actually conducting such a survey. I bowl in a house where their house shot is considerably more difficult than others in the area where our league has bowlers in that average 20 less pins than other houses the also bowl in the same county. I often hear how the THS is too easy but I cant say I have experienced that but its all relative to what you are comparing whether its eras, houses, tournament vs THS, etc. The only thing I would like to see is consistent guidelines for dressing lanes and actual inspections to certify lanes and machines are in compliance.

Jesse James · « **Reply #2 on:** April 19, 2017, 11:30:53 AM »

I have not seen, nor have I received the survey. All the houses in my area are basic, light or medium oil THS. We only have one house in the area that puts down a greater amount of oil than the rest. It is still a medium shot to me, but for those individuals with little hand, it can be a challenge. All of the THS's, to me are very easy. I honed my bowling chops on a reverse block condition, that for the longest time, was the only challenge in town!! At one time, we had that one house that specifically laid out this shot, and I loved the challenge of trying to score on it!

I hope I get to see this survey, so I can offer my point of view!

ITZPS · « **Reply #3 on:** April 19, 2017, 01:35:03 PM »

I responded with answers that likely don't fit the narrative. Ball durability is fine because either you get a lot of hook or a ball that will last 100 years. Balls that hook more take more maintenance, it's just an unfortunate fact of life. Biggest issues are ball rules are outdated (specifically when it comes to static weights), and lane certification is not enforced. All someone has to do is get online and check a box and that's it, many centers or local associations do not have lane certification done, and those that do have it done rarely spend the money to make it legal. Topography could quite possibly be the single most influential thing on ball reaction, maybe even moreso than lane conditions.

It's obvious by the questions asked what their agenda is. They want to make all sanctioned bowling competitive, and if you don't enjoy bowling the way they want you to, they have no use for you. They believe everyone should want tougher conditions and less reactive equipment and tighter restrictions on ball reaction because their think tank is comprised only of like minded people who all went to college and got taught bowling math and elitism.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #4 on:** April 19, 2017, 01:54:02 PM »

Could somebody post the survey questions or a link?

BowlingforSoup · « **Reply #5 on:** April 19, 2017, 03:17:54 PM »

The 3 unit of oil rule is the biggest joke.Should be triple that with todays balls.That rule is from the urethane days.But in my area there is no enforcement of lane conditions.They do what they want to.Same old excuse without scores the doors will close.They cant even enforce turning foul lights on here.Basically its dying a slow death in my city.Filthy bowling alleys and everybody is just about over it.

the_scarlet_pumpernickel · « **Reply #6 on:** April 19, 2017, 04:56:14 PM »

one observation i will make is that the USBC seems to be under the impression (at least from the tone of their questions) that league bowlers are somehow unaware or don't understand the difference between oil patterns. I feel that this is incorrect, as bowlers of all ages in my house seem to understand that if they bowled on a sport or challenge pattern that they would score much lower, and need to be much more accurate from shot to shot. I haven't really met another serious bowler that didn't understand the difference between a house and a sport shot.

Olderdude · « **Reply #7 on:** April 20, 2017, 09:43:48 AM »

The answer to me is simple. If a center wants to put out an easy house shot and run a league on those conditions than the averages don't count for any USBC sanctioned tournament or any awards. Toughen up the shot and the scores will be USBC "official" averages. The tougher shot doesn't have to be a sport shot, just a more challenging condition that doesn't reward miss right and strike.

This way you can have your party leagues, but if you want to bowl state or Nationals you'll have to bowl on tougher conditions. It can be up to each league to decide at their meetings what kind of league they want to be. With todays machines, changing from one pattern to the other isn't as hard as it was 12 years ago.

tommygn · « **Reply #8 on:** April 20, 2017, 10:50:28 AM »

Quote from: Olderdude on April 20, 2017, 09:43:48 AM

The answer to me is simple. If a center wants to put out an easy house shot and run a league on those conditions than the averages don't count for any USBC sanctioned tournament or any awards. Toughen up the shot and the scores will be USBC "official" averages. The tougher shot doesn't have to be a sport shot, just a more challenging condition that doesn't reward miss right and strike.

This way you can have your party leagues, but if you want to bowl state or Nationals you'll have to bowl on tougher conditions. It can be up to each league to decide at their meetings what kind of league they want to be. With todays machines, changing from one pattern to the other isn't as hard as it was 12 years ago.

They had a golden opportunity that they let slip through the cracks with the red, white, and blue program. If your center is all about high scores and you use a house condition, fine, you are red, and get an atta boy for your scores, but no real recognition. If you step up and use a white pattern, or something approved by Kegel or Brunswick of similar ratios, you still get to get your one ring a year, and some recognition for your bowling. Make the ration a maximum of say 5:1 or 6:1. It will be blended, but not ridiculously over walled like many conditions that you are rewarded for missing by an arrow. Step up to a "blue" pattern, and you can still earn that nice crystal pin.

This way, you are at least giving the choice to the centers and bowlers as to if they want to challenge themselves, and or EARN awards.

Just seems like they really, really missed an opportunity.

ITZPS · « **Reply #9 on:** April 20, 2017, 01:26:17 PM »

I would agree with USBC actually. The general league bowler indeed does not understand the difference between oil patterns. 90% of league bowlers can't read a lane graph (in my estimation), and of those, I'm willing to bet that 50% think they can but really can't. That's the true point there, "I haven't met a serious bowler who doesn't know the difference." 85% of average league bowlers aren't serious, they just bowl for fun. USBC is trying to force everyone to take bowling seriously, and this will hurt them badly.

Quote from: the_scarlet_pumpernickel on April 19, 2017, 04:56:14 PM

one observation i will make is that the USBC seems to be under the impression (at least from the tone of their questions) that league bowlers are somehow unaware or don't understand the difference between oil patterns. I feel that this is incorrect, as bowlers of all ages in my house seem to understand that if they bowled on a sport or challenge pattern that they would score much lower, and need to be much more accurate from shot to shot. I haven't really met another serious bowler that didn't understand the difference between a house and a sport shot.

ITZPS · « **Reply #10 on:** April 20, 2017, 01:26:44 PM »

Nice sentiment, unfortunately impossible to enforce however . .

Quote from: tommygn on April 20, 2017, 10:50:28 AM

Quote from: Olderdude on April 20, 2017, 09:43:48 AM
The answer to me is simple. If a center wants to put out an easy house shot and run a league on those conditions than the averages don't count for any USBC sanctioned tournament or any awards. Toughen up the shot and the scores will be USBC "official" averages. The tougher shot doesn't have to be a sport shot, just a more challenging condition that doesn't reward miss right and strike.

This way you can have your party leagues, but if you want to bowl state or Nationals you'll have to bowl on tougher conditions. It can be up to each league to decide at their meetings what kind of league they want to be. With todays machines, changing from one pattern to the other isn't as hard as it was 12 years ago.

They had a golden opportunity that they let slip through the cracks with the red, white, and blue program. If your center is all about high scores and you use a house condition, fine, you are red, and get an atta boy for your scores, but no real recognition. If you step up and use a white pattern, or something approved by Kegel or Brunswick of similar ratios, you still get to get your one ring a year, and some recognition for your bowling. Make the ration a maximum of say 5:1 or 6:1. It will be blended, but not ridiculously over walled like many conditions that you are rewarded for missing by an arrow. Step up to a "blue" pattern, and you can still earn that nice crystal pin.

This way, you are at least giving the choice to the centers and bowlers as to if they want to challenge themselves, and or EARN awards.

Just seems like they really, really missed an opportunity.

Olderdude · « **Reply #11 on:** April 20, 2017, 01:53:01 PM »

Enforcement could be an issue, but if a league says we are a rec league there is nothing to enforce. If a league says we are a "though pattern" league then local associations should randomly check the league/center for compliance. We pay the local association too and at least here they don't do much.

Center owners need to be held responsible. They created the problem by going soft patterns thus taking us down this rabbit hole. They are members of the BPAA and that could/should be an enforcement arm.

If they (USBC) are trying to change things based on this survey than I applaud them.

just my 2 cents

tommygn · « **Reply #12 on:** April 20, 2017, 02:28:14 PM »

You would have to run tapes of the lanes proving the pattern, and be subject to spot checks and verification. If you are found out of compliance, all honor scores that were bowled for the season are subsequently deemed illegitimate. Basically, you make a punishment for failure to comply a "worth while" reason to stay in compliance. If all of sudden, you have league bowlers loosing their "award-able scores" because the bowling center wants to cheat, well then you will have some very angry bowlers and that would affect the proprietors bottom line. If you affect money, you will see centers staying in compliance.

I don't agree that it would be "impossible" to enforce.

ITZPS · « **Reply #13 on:** April 20, 2017, 02:29:19 PM »

Center owners are trying to keep butts in the seats. A decade ago our city had 6 bowling centers. Now we have two. Guess which two centers in town had the highest scores? I'm a competitive bowler and I enjoy tough conditions, but I absolutely do not agree that forcing everyone to enjoy bowling one way is how anyone is going to fix things. I don't see how making bowling less fun is the way to increase participation . .

ITZPS · « **Reply #14 on:** April 20, 2017, 02:32:36 PM »

If it was actually that easy, it would already be happening, would it not?

Quote from: tommygn on April 20, 2017, 02:28:14 PM

You would have to run tapes of the lanes proving the pattern, and be subject to spot checks and verification. If you are found out of compliance, all honor scores that were bowled for the season are subsequently deemed illegitimate. Basically, you make a punishment for failure to comply a "worth while" reason to stay in compliance. If all of sudden, you have league bowlers loosing their "award-able scores" because the bowling center wants to cheat, well then you will have some very angry bowlers and that would affect the proprietors bottom line. If you affect money, you will see centers staying in compliance.

I don't agree that it would be "impossible" to enforce.

Author Topic: USBC E-mail surveys (Read 12355 times)

the_scarlet_pumpernickel

USBC E-mail surveys

giddyupddp

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Jesse James

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

itsallaboutme

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

BowlingforSoup

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

the_scarlet_pumpernickel

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Olderdude

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

tommygn

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Olderdude

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

tommygn

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys