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Author Topic: USBC E-mail surveys (Read 3626 times)

the_scarlet_pumpernickel

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USBC E-mail surveys
on: April 19, 2017, 10:34:57 AM
Did anyone else get one of these surveys about lane conditions, bowling equipment? you should check your e-mail to see if you got one. It asked a lot of questions about whether bowling was challenging enough, whether lane conditions are too easy. What is everyone's take on this survey? was it good enough? any questions you would have asked, not asked? did you even get it? do you think they will really use it's results to a positive end?

I think they are just confirming on paper what everyone already thinks. There's no way they don't know what bowlers have been saying about league vs. pro lane conditions, resin balls/dynamic cores being too strong, 2 handed good or bad etc... I would like to have seen more detailed questions about ball durability, which is arguably not as good anymore.
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bowling_rebel

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #31 on: April 21, 2017, 05:24:38 AM
I did the survey and filled it out like a scratch bowler would.
But this is a topic thats been discussed so much.
My thoughts:

1) Bowling industry is in decline because of factors that have nothing to do with bowling. Pay people more, give them some less hours to work, and they'll be heading out bowling more, and to movies more and other things...

2) People vote with their money. Sport bowling leagues are NOT popular. I only bowl in sport shot league in summer and then rest of year, is the break and do tournaments when can. I wish they were more popular, I love bowling in my summer league, but just stating fact.

3) Scratch bowlers who want to bowl on hard conditions are frequenting these message boards, not the typical 170 - 200 bowler.

4) Two handed bowling. Being realistic, if you're a 9 year old kid and try throwing one handed, and then see some 10 year old next to you blowing away the wrack 2 handed, what are you going to do? Two handed bowling significantly reduces learning curve and physical skills needed to have a pretty hook. I'm sure it makes things more exciting for youth bowlers, therefore it's good for industry.

That pretty two handed hook that a newbie can learn in a month, will be going all over the place on a sport shot, but whatever, that's besides the point.

5) It would have been simple for the USBC and bowling proprietors to prevent the problem of out of controlling scoring, then to reverse it. 200 avg. bowlers will not be happy to learn that they are really at 170. These no solution to this from pin weight, changing lane oils, changing ball specs... that doesn't lead to lower scores. How lower scores will help the bowling industry isn't a mystery to me.

The only solution is clearer differentiation between sport bowling, and recreation bowling, and to stop treating recreation bowling, as if it's sport bowling.

It shouldn't matter to the competitive scratch bowling if people have fun with an inflated recreation average. I think what does matter is when the 220 avg bowling can't do real bowling b/c he's crowded out by all the recreation stuff.

If 90% of bowling was recreation and 10% sport that would be ok. But when it's more than 99% rec. and you have to search hard for any sport then you have a problem.

If this is what bowlers want, then vote with your dollars.
I spend money on my sport shot league, lots of practice, on bowling lessons, and sport shot tournaments. I do NOT pay $30 a week to bowl 3 games on a house shot, for 36 weeks, nor will I pay $100+ to bowling in a "modified house shot" tournament.
Not that I'm trying to influence bowling industry, this is simply what I'm interested in paying.

Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 06:04:49 AM by bowling_rebel

tommygn

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #32 on: April 21, 2017, 09:38:58 AM
I have to disagree.  League bowling is much different from tournament bowling.  The idea that all league bowling has to have "integrity" and has to be on shots that "keep you honest" and form and mechanics should indicate skill simply isn't true.  Bowling is suffering because no one is having fun anymore.  It's become a collection of stiffs, egos, elitists who try to be as condescending and judgmental as possible.  I wholeheartedly disagree that league conditions should be made harder.  The USBC member average is something like 175, but for some reason everyone, themselves included, think it should only be about the scratch bowler, and that's the only demographic they care about.  If conditions get harder, you make 10% of the membership base happy and piss the other 90% off.  I can't imagine telling leagues full of 170-200 average bowlers that bowl for fun once a week that the conditions are now being made harder and are going to be enforced.  If there's a sure way to kill off league bowling and drive USBC into bankruptcy, that's it. 

First point:

I have yet to say that ALL bowling needs to be hard. I have said a couple of times, bowling needs to have tiers, and what ever tier you sign up for, will garner acknowledgment based on your performance. Red, have at it, score as high as you want, but you don't get rewarded for it. You wanting to "award" everyone no matter how easy or difficult the pattern is, is the reason people never really try to get any better, and the VERY reason why you have so called "elitist" attitudes, because people who really don't know what they are talking about score high, so they think they are that good. This is a huge factor of why there is this entitlement issue. I want it, so there for I should get it handed to me.

Second point:

5:1 or 6:1 ratio patterns are not "hard". They are blended patterns, that are VERY high scoring, for people who have reasonable ability.

Third point:

With out league bowling, you don't have tournament bowling, so YES they are very much connected. No one has ever NOT bowled league, and threw their very first ball ever in a tournament. League bowling breeds tournament bowlers, and without a tired system for people to truly understand at what level of ability they really are, they have no idea of how to get better and know what real shot making is.

4th point:

You mentioned in another post that 3 centers out of 5 closed and those centers had the highest scores stayed open. I would bet that the two centers that are left are probably better run, have nicer staff, and all around more welcoming places to spend a bowlers hard earned money. People will not go spend their money in a dump with dirty smelly bathrooms, over priced food, counter staff that is rude, just to "score higher".




You also talk about having "fun". I agree league bowling needs to have an element of "fun". you know what isn't "fun"? Loosing a game to someone who threw the ball all over the lane, didn't hit the same spot twice, but yet racked up a higher score than you, even though you repeated much better, and rung a few corner pins on quality shots. Your biggest mistake was not missing by enough boards to still strike.
Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 10:29:17 AM by tommygn
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avabob

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #33 on: April 21, 2017, 11:29:29 AM
Sorry if I am getting a little crochety in my old age but I have been listening to and having these arguments for 40 years.  To the guy who is tired if getting beat by a guy throwing it all over the lane.  If it us so easy just throw it like the guy who us beating you. 

What people really don't like on house shots is that the other guy has a release that matches up better.  From a competitive point if view the game is the best shape ever thanks to the technology of lane conditioning.  Versatility is the only true test for upper echelon bowlers, and the industry is more capable if supplying that versatility than ever before. 

As for league nothing wrong with the THS.  It provides plenty of challenge for 90% of bowlers.   Most of the guys who think the THS is too easy, really mean it is too easy for the other guy.

Turning too the decline in league participation, it has never been about people quitting, but about not enough young people starting to replace us old guys. The reasons for this are many, but go way beyond scoring levels.

Kegler300800

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #34 on: April 21, 2017, 11:29:58 AM
>>I don't see how making bowling less fun is the way to increase participation . .

So you only have "fun" if you are bowling a high game score? You don't bowl for the challenge? You don't bowl in tough tournaments like your city's Masters?

If bowling was still considered a challenging sport, it would get more press, more sponsorship dollars, have a real PBA TOUR and be in the Olympics.

However, when Joe Bowler can out average Pete Pro on paper, bowling doesn't stand a chance.
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tommygn

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #35 on: April 21, 2017, 11:33:48 AM
 :o
Sorry if I am getting a little crochety in my old age but I have been listening to and having these arguments for 40 years.  To the guy who is tired if getting beat by a guy throwing it all over the lane.  If it us so easy just throw it like the guy who us beating you. 

What people really don't like on house shots is that the other guy has a release that matches up better.  From a competitive point if view the game is the best shape ever thanks to the technology of lane conditioning.  Versatility is the only true test for upper echelon bowlers, and the industry is more capable if supplying that versatility than ever before. 

As for league nothing wrong with the THS.  It provides plenty of challenge for 90% of bowlers.   Most of the guys who think the THS is too easy, really mean it is too easy for the other guy.

Turning too the decline in league participation, it has never been about people quitting, but about not enough young people starting to replace us old guys. The reasons for this are many, but go way beyond scoring levels.

Last time I checked, Pete Weber, Walter Ray Williams Jr, Norm Duke, David Ozio, etc.... has never shot a 900 series. I guess they should throw it like league bowlers who have.   :o

God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

avabob

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #36 on: April 21, 2017, 11:37:20 AM
Locals were out averaging tour guys 40 years ago. 

tommygn

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #37 on: April 21, 2017, 11:38:16 AM
>>I don't see how making bowling less fun is the way to increase participation . .

So you only have "fun" if you are bowling a high game score? You don't bowl for the challenge? You don't bowl in tough tournaments like your city's Masters?

If bowling was still considered a challenging sport, it would get more press, more sponsorship dollars, have a real PBA TOUR and be in the Olympics.

However, when Joe Bowler can out average Pete Pro on paper, bowling doesn't stand a chance.

They are only having fun if they are shooting high scores because they "love" bowling so much and just want to have fun, but it's me that has the problem, because I want some integrity by adding tiers, LOL!!


Ability should dictate score, not score dictate ability. EVERY single other sport except maybe auto racing, this is true, but bowling, it is not.

At least one person understands what I'm trying to say.


Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 11:41:15 AM by tommygn
God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

tommygn

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #38 on: April 21, 2017, 11:39:00 AM
Locals were out averaging tour guys 40 years ago. 

...That doesn't make it "right". Again, keep doing the same thing over and over again.....
God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

avabob

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #39 on: April 21, 2017, 11:44:28 AM
High individual games and series have never been a measure of talent in thus game.  Back in the rubber ball era a local St Louis amateur named Elvin Mesger had more 300s than Carter Weber Bluth or any pro.  In our own little association our city record at the time of 837 was set in 1980 by a guy who didn't even bowl scratch leagues.  It has always been that way. 

avabob

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #40 on: April 21, 2017, 11:48:54 AM
A local amatuer shot 59 in a tournament last year.  Top high school players routinely put up 65 in golf tournaments.  Never yet heard a PGA pro complain about such scores being an assault in the integrity if the game.  That kind of stuff seems to be reserved for bowlers who blame the lanes when they get beat

tommygn

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #41 on: April 21, 2017, 11:57:55 AM
High individual games and series have never been a measure of talent in thus game.  Back in the rubber ball era a local St Louis amateur named Elvin Mesger had more 300s than Carter Weber Bluth or any pro.  In our own little association our city record at the time of 837 was set in 1980 by a guy who didn't even bowl scratch leagues.  It has always been that way. 


... Still doesn't make it right.


Women used to not be allowed to vote, and we used to have segregation because of skin color. Glad someone saw the error of societies ways when it came to those issues.



God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

avabob

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #42 on: April 21, 2017, 11:59:36 AM
Here is how I feel about scoring.  Quite a few guys can out score me on a house shot.  I can outscore a lot of them on some sport patterns.  Neither fact proves anything.  I am probably one of the more versatile bowlers in our area.  However on any pattern, including a house shit there is often somebody who can beat me. Game has always been that way and I know if no way to change it

tommygn

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #43 on: April 21, 2017, 11:59:50 AM
A local amatuer shot 59 in a tournament last year.  Top high school players routinely put up 65 in golf tournaments.  Never yet heard a PGA pro complain about such scores being an assault in the integrity if the game.  That kind of stuff seems to be reserved for bowlers who blame the lanes when they get beat


Aren't golf courses rated by how easy or hard they are?????????

Were those score shot by those amateurs at Augusta????????
God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

tommygn

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #44 on: April 21, 2017, 12:01:05 PM
Here is how I feel about scoring.  Quite a few guys can out score me on a house shot.  I can outscore a lot of them on some sport patterns.  Neither fact proves anything.  I am probably one of the more versatile bowlers in our area.  However on any pattern, including a house shit there is often somebody who can beat me. Game has always been that way and I know if no way to change it


Easy, tiered and rated bowling centers.
God creates us with a blank canvas, and the "picture" we paint is up to us. Paint a picture you like and love!

Mbosco

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Re: USBC E-mail surveys
Reply #45 on: April 21, 2017, 01:15:02 PM
Here is how I feel about scoring.  Quite a few guys can out score me on a house shot.  I can outscore a lot of them on some sport patterns.  Neither fact proves anything.  I am probably one of the more versatile bowlers in our area.  However on any pattern, including a house shit there is often somebody who can beat me. Game has always been that way and I know if no way to change it


Easy, tiered and rated bowling centers.


That doesn't affect any part of his statement.  It's like you had a response ready to go before he even said anything.