Author Topic: USBC E-mail surveys (Read 12351 times)

the_scarlet_pumpernickel · « **on:** April 19, 2017, 10:34:57 AM »

Did anyone else get one of these surveys about lane conditions, bowling equipment? you should check your e-mail to see if you got one. It asked a lot of questions about whether bowling was challenging enough, whether lane conditions are too easy. What is everyone's take on this survey? was it good enough? any questions you would have asked, not asked? did you even get it? do you think they will really use it's results to a positive end?

I think they are just confirming on paper what everyone already thinks. There's no way they don't know what bowlers have been saying about league vs. pro lane conditions, resin balls/dynamic cores being too strong, 2 handed good or bad etc... I would like to have seen more detailed questions about ball durability, which is arguably not as good anymore.

Steven · « **Reply #61 on:** April 23, 2017, 10:32:22 AM »

Quote from: itsallaboutme on April 23, 2017, 09:23:41 AM

That's because the people that chirp the most about wanting tougher conditions think they are better than they are and think everyone else's scores will go down and theirs won't.

I'm not sure this is a universal truth. I've been bowling scratch THS for the past 18 years. Over the past 5 years I've been also bowling Scratch Sport leagues during the regular season. My experience is that in general, the bowlers who do these leagues are the most introspective and realistic about their true abilities. Getting your brains beat in by actually bowling in these environments is a true reality check.

I agree that only a small percentage of bowlers really want this kind of experience. Still, I bowl in 4 different houses, and each has enough motivated bowlers to put together 12 trio teams for sport bowling. I don't see a reason why most houses can't put together at least one league where one of the less demanding Kegel sport patterns are used. What turns a lot of bowlers off is having shock of bowling the US Open pattern on a weekly basis. Tommygn is right that it doesn't have to be this extreme.

Put out a reasonable sport pattern starting with one league and recognize the scores as a more unique accomplishment. It's not about "believing you are better", but having an option beyond the tired old THS.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #62 on:** April 23, 2017, 10:42:22 AM »

I've been on the other side of the counter for over 30 years. I'm pretty realistic in my observations.

Centers could put something together if they wanted to. A lot have. Then 11 people will show up. From a business standpoint it's not worth the time and effort.

avabob · « **Reply #63 on:** April 23, 2017, 12:02:10 PM »

The true scratch bowling community has always been too small a niche to be profitable to proprietors. When I was young we complained if the lanes were too tough, and we were slow so we always had the late leagues. Most guys who considered themselves scratch bowlers were Dependant on the conditions, but the elite level of scratch bowlers knew they could come to the top on high scoring conditions better than on tough shots.

Equipment got stronger and the knowledge of how to throw a powerful ball. As result we produced a new level of sub scratch level bowler who became more Dependant on a certain type of hooking condition. That group has over the years become a large enough segment of bowlers that it us not viewed by proprietors as a group they can ignore. On the other hand the modern lane machines a lane conditioning knowledge has made it easier to supply the needs of bothvsegments.

ITZPS · « **Reply #64 on:** April 23, 2017, 12:43:39 PM »

The manufacturers are also the ones holding bowling up right now or at least competitive bowling up anyway. You put the screws to the manufacturers and competitive bowling very nearly ceases to exist.

Steven · « **Reply #65 on:** April 23, 2017, 03:15:16 PM »

Quote from: itsallaboutme on April 23, 2017, 10:42:22 AM

I've been on the other side of the counter for over 30 years. I'm pretty realistic in my observations.

Centers could put something together if they wanted to. A lot have. Then 11 people will show up. From a business standpoint it's not worth the time and effort.

Centers are notoriously poor at setting up and recruiting for scratch sport leagues. Putting out flyers, sitting back, and expecting bowlers to naturally show up is a recipe for failure.

Our latest sport league set up last year was spearheaded by a local regional staffer. A guy on a true mission. He put a couple of man weeks into negotiating time/lineage with center management, setting up the logics of the league, securing sponsorship, and personally recruiting most candidate bowlers both face-to-face and through social media.

It takes a lot of personal dedication and it isn't going to happen depending on Center employees. That's a big reason so few of these leagues exist.

ITZPS · « **Reply #66 on:** April 23, 2017, 03:34:28 PM »

That's a good point and I completely agree BUT the return on all that effort is usually low, and the better the bowler, the more time you put into them and less you get out of them. The scratch or tournament bowler is someone that is virtually worthless to the bowling center.

Quote from: Steven on April 23, 2017, 03:15:16 PM

Quote from: itsallaboutme on April 23, 2017, 10:42:22 AM
I've been on the other side of the counter for over 30 years. I'm pretty realistic in my observations.

Centers could put something together if they wanted to. A lot have. Then 11 people will show up. From a business standpoint it's not worth the time and effort.

Centers are notoriously poor at setting up and recruiting for scratch sport leagues. Putting out flyers, sitting back, and expecting bowlers to naturally show up is a recipe for failure.

Our latest sport league set up last year was spearheaded by a local regional staffer. A guy on a true mission. He put a couple of man weeks into negotiating time/lineage with center management, setting up the logics of the league, securing sponsorship, and personally recruiting most candidate bowlers both face-to-face and through social media.

It takes a lot of personal dedication and it isn't going to happen depending on Center employees. That's a big reason so few of these leagues exist.

Steven · « **Reply #67 on:** April 23, 2017, 03:53:57 PM »

Quote from: ITZPS on April 23, 2017, 03:34:28 PM

That's a good point and I completely agree BUT the return on all that effort is usually low, and the better the bowler, the more time you put into them and less you get out of them. The scratch or tournament bowler is someone that is virtually worthless to the bowling center.

Centers hate empty lanes. They'd rather have 12 lanes booked during mid-week 9:00pm dead time than an almost guarantee no activity. Add some high margin beer and food sales that otherwise wouldn't happen, and it's not a bad deal for the center.

The point is that these leagues can and do happen with passionate grass roots effort. The major longer term benefit I see to the center is the cultivation of bowlers still developing their skills. They practice more and many end up bowling more leagues than they otherwise would. That's not a bad thing.

itsallaboutme · « **Reply #68 on:** April 23, 2017, 04:31:02 PM »

You should buy a bowling center since you have it all figured out.

Steven · « **Reply #69 on:** April 23, 2017, 05:09:04 PM »

Quote from: itsallaboutme on April 23, 2017, 04:31:02 PM

You should buy a bowling center since you have it all figured out.

Don't need to. I have a good friend who owns several. I get bowling benefits and information without the headaches.

But thanks for your insights anyway...

Olderdude · « **Reply #70 on:** April 24, 2017, 09:40:04 AM »

Wow, this morphed into a handicap vs scratch topic. If the USBC toughened up the requirements on oil patterns gradually, how many people would even notice? It is beyond me how you can have a governing body that has no real say in how league oil patterns are set up. It is simple, if you want to bowl a sanctioned league you follow these guidelines. You can run your "fun" league if you want, it just isn't sanctioned. If you want "Wally World" you have it you just can't use your average for anything other than your league handicap. Every league would have the option on deciding what they want to be. It wont affect anyone's bottom line.

giddyupddp · « **Reply #71 on:** April 24, 2017, 10:25:55 AM »

Quote from: Olderdude on April 24, 2017, 09:40:04 AM

Wow, this morphed into a handicap vs scratch topic. If the USBC toughened up the requirements on oil patterns gradually, how many people would even notice? It is beyond me how you can have a governing body that has no real say in how league oil patterns are set up. It is simple, if you want to bowl a sanctioned league you follow these guidelines. You can run your "fun" league if you want, it just isn't sanctioned. If you want "Wally World" you have it you just can't use your average for anything other than your league handicap. Every league would have the option on deciding what they want to be. It wont affect anyone's bottom line.

I think the majority of leagues are already "fun" leagues and the USBC would be foolish as a business to do anything that would result in the "fun" leagues deciding to not be part of the USBC. Again the % of bowlers that want tougher conditions is so small that making the general shot for all leagues makes no business sense from a sanctioning body as most leagues will in the end opt out.

In my small state of CT there are plenty of bowling centers where at most there is 1 elite league in a house. The crappy BowlMor/AMF chain dominates in my area and they do not care about the "sport" in anyway and would welcome losing USBC rules IMHO.

If the USBC wants to cater to all levels of bowling it should adopt type of levels/tiers for leagues where majority would follow current lane conditions and other level leagues that the USBC promotes and sets up within the local associations. I know that is the "sport" bowling concept I guess but it should'nt be called "sport" bowling as that is a failed attempt which I can talk at length about in terms of marketing etc. The key to any attempt like this is for the USBC to really work and market it along with local associations. Honestly I dont see this ever occurring but one could dream.

avabob · « **Reply #72 on:** April 24, 2017, 10:57:05 AM »

I wish more people would understand that a house shot is still a challenge to 90% of bowlers. Even as a high average scratch bowler I learned a long time ago that respecting the condition and doing my best to make consistently good shots was the best way to score the best on a house shot or a sport shot. I like sport patterns, not because I am some kind of masochist who likes to struggle to average 190. Rather I like them because there is a way to score on many sport patterns if I can be versatile enough to find the best way to make my game work.

Olderdude · « **Reply #73 on:** April 24, 2017, 11:02:55 AM »

Isn't a tier basically what I'm talking about? All in all it is pointless to talk about, it's one of those issues where there is definitely two sides. If the USBC is the regulatory body of bowling, then they should enforce or at least put out minimum requirements that bowling centers are required to follow in order to receive sanctioned status.
Not every league has to be USBC certified, so if you don't want to follow the guidelines don't. There are plenty of leagues around me who do not sanction their leagues by choice

giddyupddp · « **Reply #74 on:** April 24, 2017, 11:46:42 AM »

Quote from: Olderdude on April 24, 2017, 11:02:55 AM

Isn't a tier basically what I'm talking about? All in all it is pointless to talk about, it's one of those issues where there is definitely two sides. If the USBC is the regulatory body of bowling, then they should enforce or at least put out minimum requirements that bowling centers are required to follow in order to receive sanctioned status.
Not every league has to be USBC certified, so if you don't want to follow the guidelines don't. There are plenty of leagues around me who do not sanction their leagues by choice

Yes you are correct but the 2 tiers are in USBC and not in the USBC. In my area most to all leagues (at night / fall/winter) are sanctioned leagues and if the game became harder for the 180-210 bowler who are in all leagues to bowl with their wives, buddies, teammates who have no desire to be sanctioned would over time drop out of USBC as they also generally dont want tougher conditions. If this was to occur where the leagues that now may only have a percentage of bowlers in them wanting it to be a sanctioned league they generally stay sanctioned to keep all of the bowlers and teams they can in the league. Lose all these type of leagues the USBC will go away too as it is now comprised.

Olderdude · « **Reply #75 on:** April 24, 2017, 11:59:42 AM »

Perhaps you are right, but if an average is used to delineate anything, there should be some uniformity.

I'm not even talking "elite vs average joe" I'm talking 180 in one center vs 180 in a different center/city/state

I think just saying people will leave if all sanctioned leagues are required to bowl on a minimum standard (say white) is an easy cop out

I personally have no real stake in this, I only bowl scratch whatever the tournament so handicap doesn't affect me one way or another. I just chose on the survey that the conditions have gotten too soft.

thanks to everyone for talking about it

Author Topic: USBC E-mail surveys (Read 12351 times)

the_scarlet_pumpernickel

USBC E-mail surveys

Steven

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

itsallaboutme

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

avabob

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Steven

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

ITZPS

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Steven

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

itsallaboutme

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Steven

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Olderdude

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

giddyupddp

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

avabob

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Olderdude

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

giddyupddp

Re: USBC E-mail surveys

Olderdude

Re: USBC E-mail surveys