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Author Topic: Working on Timing  (Read 1488 times)

n00dlejester

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Working on Timing
« on: December 28, 2017, 11:54:12 AM »
After years of not understanding early vs. late timing, I'm working with a coach that's helping me finish sliding before releasing the ball. My problem is that I tend to 'carry' the ball a bit and start my armswing a tad bit late, causing me to muscle the swing both up and down. This causes some (severe) misfires.

That said, what triggers do you guys use to help start the armswing at the right time? Any drills? Anything I can do at home? Any and all help would be greatly appreciated!

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n00dlejester

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2018, 10:18:55 AM »
As promised, here's a video of how things are going lately. If I were to grade this shot, it felt like a C to me - maybe a C+ because the release felt clean.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uRYNtwuPQynuGuD2gXFRt9R-2lxBkYYT
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bergman

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2018, 12:40:47 PM »
N00dlejester:  Thanks for posting a video of your approach.  I too, have late timing (I had it all my life).  In my view, correcting timing errors is one of the most difficult tasks to accomplish, especially if you have been bowling for a long, long time with late timing. Many of the posters have already given you (and others) some excellent suggestions. 

"Late timing" can actually increase release leverage at the foul line provided the timing is not excessively late. Late timing can occur during any portion of the approach phase, and for different reasons. For me, I have long arms, which results in a slower swing speed. Although my armswing speed is a tad slower , the leverage created by my long arms (and long legs) generates a lot of ball speed all on their own. I also have no trouble getting the ball into that "pro zone" on the backswing. My late timing occurs much later in my approach.  So for me, getting the ball into the swing even earlier, exacerbates my late timing because the earlier you get the ball into the swing, the faster the feet go. For me, my "triggers" for achieving better timing are twofold:

1. I always try to match my footwork speed with the speed of my armswing.

2. As I launch into my last step, I discipline myself to "wait" for the ball to catch up to my slide foot by relying solely on gravity to bring the ball down from the top of the backswing.  (In fact, my entire swing cycle is gravity-fed).

Judging from your video, indeed, you have some late timing at release but it does not look too bad. You do start your downswing a bit late, which prevents you from getting into that pro zone on "time". I like Norm Duke's suggestion on this. He said the key is to start the swing phase AS SOON AS your second step compresses on the approach (for a 5-stepper). In other words, as soon as you feel your second step
compressing on the approach, remove your left (support) hand from the ball AT THE SAME TIME, without any delay, and allow the ball to descend into the backswing. This should get you into the pro zone on time .  Allow the ball to swing with no muscle (or minimal muscle) throughout the entire approach and remember to wait for the ball to descend on its own power at release.

Good luck to you. You otherwise have a very nice approach!

n00dlejester

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2018, 05:48:49 PM »
Hi Bergman, thanks so much for your thoughtful input & kind words!

I think I understand what you mean by the "pro zone" during the armswing - it's that little moment when the ball feels weightless and you can follow the ball all the way through to the follow-through. It's nice to have someone put it into words for me, haha.

I do have a question. I'm a bit confused by this statement:
Quote
I like Norm Duke's suggestion on this. He said the key is to start the swing phase AS SOON AS your second step compresses on the approach (for a 5-stepper). In other words, as soon as you feel your second step compressing on the approach, remove your left (support) hand from the ball AT THE SAME TIME, without any delay, and allow the ball to descend into the backswing.

The word "compress" is confusing me a bit. Could you elaborate on that a bit? Or perhaps is there a Duke video to illustrate this point?

Thank you again, Bergman!
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Aloarjr810

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2018, 06:52:04 PM »
Norm Duke - Learn to bowl competitively: 07 Timing


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jkirkerx

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2018, 10:08:25 PM »
I ve been going to Marks Clinic for about 4 years now and aquired his book Game Changer and read it like 20 times. At the clinic I focused on the books theories and strategy and Mark helped me break the ice with footwork and swing. Break the ice with the answers to your post question and Continued to train and roll over a 1000 shots. Now I don’t even think about it anymore when I Bowl.

In a nutshell in the finish position, your hand should be out in front of you remaining flat for a second so your thumb can exit and you can decide what to do with the ball; rotate and lift hard, soft, etc. this is the destination point in which your butt should be down low, left knee bent and foot sliding, torso behind the left knee, right leg coming around with toe pointing down to balance the body and transfer power from the lower body to the upper body.

Late timing is when your hand is not in front of you projecting the ball on the lane, and is not yet in the flat spot, in which the ball defies gravity and floats. Your hand is trying to catch up or is simply late.

Now let’s rewind this to the start before you push off. If you have late timing, you have to buy time from somewhere or extend time. Means your walking too fast or you need to walk longer. If your have early timing it means your waking too slow or you need to walk less.

You said you have late timing. So you need to buy time or extend time.
You can hold the ball higher and let gravity accelerate the swing time.
You can hold the ball lower but you end up using muscle to accelerate the swing.
You can eliminate the elevator, pushing up and out and get straight to the swing.
There are many ways to shave time off the swing.

The key is to separate the footwork from the swing in your brain while you figure it out. You want to swing the ball correctly and just walk by the swing. If your late keep walking and take another set of steps.

So how did I learn? You guys are going to laugh really hard.
I watched good bowlers over a couple of months and found that the 3,4,5 step approach means nothing. If you watch the pros, they just start walking and at a certain point in their mind they push off and go. There not static in which they take a step and push off at the same time.

So I read up on sports phycology and learned that you can train while you sleep or during lucid dreaming. Lucid dreaming is like when you wake up at 5AM above REM level and you can visualize yourself bowling. Or when you go to bed, turn the lights out and practice your footwork and swing in your mind. Then do physical practice the next day. Or physical practice then Lucid practice that night. This will develop muscle memory and shorten the amount of time to nail it.

Or you can just try it the old fashioned way and be lucky to achive the goal.
Have a friend help tell you your late or early. Learn to self diagnose when your late or early.




« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 10:17:29 PM by jkirkerx »
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michiganbowlingcoach

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #21 on: January 07, 2018, 10:26:16 AM »
Practice about 1000 shots is the only way you can change your muscle memory . What is wrong with your early timing?

1000 shots - sounds like a frat party, lol. I'm hopeful to work on that over the next few weeks.

As for my issue, I my feet there early and feel the urge to muscle the ball down during my downswing. I'd say 5/10 times I can get away with it, and 5/10 times is really inconsistent (speed, trajectory, axis tilt/rotation, revs). I want to eliminate the inconsistency by having a more repeatable armswing.

This means you need to get the ball into the swing earlier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaX_CLp-qvQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd7Bxc5Xg8E

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDB1rAhEgoU


n00dlejester

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2018, 07:07:58 AM »
Thank you all for the responses! There's some great stuff here.

I watched the Duke video a few times, and even tried to apply it during my Sunday bowling. Changing something during competition is difficult, but I did my best and felt a few shots that were real smooth.

@jkirkerx: thank you so much for that response - I appreciate you spending the time to help me out! I really like your idea of visualizing the shot, the swing, and the result. If you can see it in the mind, you can do it with the body.

After observing myself bowl on Sunday, I learned that I focus on my feet and force my armswing to catch up.  Based on the above responses, it seems like I want to focus on my armswing and have my feet follow the swing. Or at least do more of the latter than I am now.

I have league tonight on Beijing Pattern (same as was in the video I previously posted). After league I plan on rolling some games to practice my armswing / timing. My goal is to let gravity control the speed of my swing, and to try to have my feet 'follow' the armswing.  I'll take some videos and post them up tonight or tomorrow morning.

Thanks again, everybody! I really appreciate it.
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michiganbowlingcoach

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2018, 06:01:35 PM »
After looking at your video I like your timing. Try this - after the ball has reached the top of the back swing let the ball drop (let gravity do its magic) into the downswing. You will be able to be more consistent and stay behind the ball better.

n00dlejester

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2018, 11:53:04 AM »
Hey Michiganbowlingcoach, that's exactly what one of the local pros said! I tried doing it after I took a video last night, and it felt different. It was real nice and help the ball project down lane much better than what I normally do. I plan on practicing that tomorrow night for a good hour.

Here's a shot I tried last night using a bit more the 'frozen rope' idea. My goal was to shrink my first step a tad, and get the ball going sooner. It was an alright shot - I'd give this one a B-: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1aOO_JOh33zKQLVvRmfFv-tG-ZtSGHayX

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Freddy

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2018, 09:39:51 AM »
Camp Bakes is the BEST and his book will help you.  Well invested 25 dollars for sure!!!

n00dlejester

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2018, 07:14:00 AM »
I practiced last night, and focused hard on letting my armswing dictate my steps. I also tried shortening my first step to more of a shuffle step to allow longer 4th and 5th steps.

Shot 1: pretty solid shot, I'd give myself a B on this one https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fW-A26wP4kdeJmE3mQPWkOiPbEQstDxd/view?usp=sharing

Shot 2: my best shot of the night, and I give myself an A on this one! https://drive.google.com/file/d/12JnQi5sa8L_axX3UPyA35XDNcNhl-cxS/view?usp=sharing

I'm going to order Mark Baker's book once I get some extra cash, and really dig into this whole timing thing. Thank you again everyone for all the help! I'm glad I came back to BR - I didn't realize how much I missed the nuance of bowling until I wound up back here :)
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HackJandy

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Re: Working on Timing
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2018, 07:21:45 PM »
Just picked up that book and realized as I suspected I am early (ball almost half way in down swing before slide foot flat).  Pretty sure mostly due to not having a proper crossover step (have been stepping straight forward) which didn't allow for a free swing so was starting ball at waist and back swing barely goes above my waist which is my next mission to work on starting the ball higher with a higher backswing with a proper crossover step.  Can get the book for $10 on kindle or kindle app on your phone instantly FYI.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 07:43:14 PM by HackJandy »
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