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Author Topic: Storm video on sanding?  (Read 5536 times)

lefty50

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Storm video on sanding?
« on: November 05, 2017, 10:08:56 AM »
Does anyone know of a video from Storm on proper sanding? It's still a weak spot for me, or at least not producing the results I expected. I was watching a video this morning on surface adjustments for the Code Red, and was very surprised to hear one of the engineers mention during the adjustment section to "make sure you use good pressure".

I know we have all discussed sanding to death, but I especially remember back to the surface scanner article, which indicated that the only sanding that actually ended up at the anticipated grit was a two-sided sanding at 750 using light pressure. Everything else, when measured on the scanner, was a much higher than anticipated grit.

Storm has put out some really good technical information in multiple areas. I would love to see a specific Storm video on sanding, and it was referred to as an "upcoming topic" in the Code Red video. I was just wondering if the video was known to exist already. It's a great topic, but I have not been able to find it on the Storm site.

Thanks in advance


 

lefty50

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2017, 11:08:07 PM »
Thanks, that helps a lot and is VERY timely since I've got 5-6 games on my Intense now and can see that I'm either going to have to take it down to about 2000 or have it redrilled. I'm confident it's a great ball, I see good things when it hits, but it just won't roll up for me, at least not yet. I'll take your advice and see what happens.

lefty50

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 07:24:27 AM »
Agreed, I'm NOT bashing either. I've seen six already and they were dynamite. I bowled against someone last night who rolled an Intense. That ball made him look good. Really good. He clobbered me. I should have put mine away, as you mentioned, get it right first. I think your point on this ball seeming to be sensitive to layout is spot on. I've got the layout within 1/4 inch of where my only other, but consistently working, asyms are (I admittedly have trouble with asyms in general) and it's so hugely different from them as a whole it's crazy.

BACK to sanding! Great info, particularly using a scale to judge pressure, a topic often debated here. Why didn't I think of that....

One thing though. Did I read that right that you do circles with the pad while sanding on a spinner?


dmonroe814

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2017, 07:50:39 AM »
I did some research a couple of years ago and found this guide from Storm.  This part is for using a Ball spinner.
14lb 15.5 mph at pins 325 Revs. Silver Coach, Ball Driller. In Bag:  Storm Pro-Motion, Hyroad X, Matchup, Code Red.

lefty50

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2017, 09:09:14 AM »
Thanks for the info. I've got it saved for future reference. There's only one thing on there that puzzles me, and I've seen this before. "Touch up with the final step every 20 games". With all the studies that say how quickly a rough ball gets from 1000 to 5000 (within 3 games), I've always wondered about that statement....

Aloarjr810

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2017, 10:06:10 AM »

Important Notes on Sanding! Back to Sanding .......
On the sanding, what is firm pressure? Place your hand down on a bathroom scale to get a feel for 10 and 15 lbs of downforce. It should stick in your head. 15 lbs for 500 grit and 10 lbs for 1000. Maybe like 5 lbs for 2000 and up.

And most ball spinners rotate clockwise, so you want to do circles counter clockwise starting at the top pole of the ball to the equator. This creates a uniform pattern of grit marks that cross each other. You don’t want all the grit marks going the same direction.

Important Notes on Sanding! Back to Sanding .......

1-Bathroom scales are not that accurate.

2-10 to 15 pounds of pressure, Is alot of pressure! Lighter pressures cut more efficiently. Also High pressures reduce the life of your pad/paper.

3-The top of the ball sands faster than the sides, So do the side just slightly longer (or the top less) so the amount of sanding is more even.

4-As for which direction your spinner spins, What matters more is what hand you hold your pad/paper in.

If say your spinner goes counter clockwise (Like my tub mount does). Holding your abrasive in your left hand, causes you to lean into the pad because the ball is spinning into the heel of your palm. This tends to produce a higher pressure.

Holding the pad in your right hand the ball is spinning into your fingers and gives you better control of how much pressure your applying.

Ultimately you basically want to use a more even pressure with your entire hand.

5-Wet sanding produces a more sheen like finish, water acts as a lubricant to a point so the cutting isn't as aggressive.

Also wet sanding helps keep the dust and friction heat down, the water also helps reduce buildup of the cuttings in your pad/paper which let's them cut better and last longer.

Wet sanding is pretty much the standard when using a home spinner.

6-Dry sanding is a bit more aggressive and will give you a duller surface. But you get more friction which generates more heat and the pad can load up which can reduce the effectiveness of the cutting. Plus you should wear a dust mask so as not to inhale the dust particles produced.

Comparison of dry & wet sanding (same grit) can be see here:


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Aloarjr810

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2017, 10:16:32 AM »
One thing though. Did I read that right that you do circles with the pad while sanding on a spinner?

I've tried that before (assuming he's doing it the way I'm thinking.), as a attempt to mimic the random orbit type sanding pattern like how the balls come from the factory. To me it was extra effort for little return (it didn't really produce that kind of finish).

Now if he means going all the way around the ball in the opposite direction it's spinning, That would be pointless.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 10:23:05 AM by Aloarjr810 »
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lefty50

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2017, 10:59:46 AM »
Al, input on your sanding notes....

1. Bathroom scales may not be accurate, but I still think it's light years ahead of trying to gauge, "light" vs "firm" just by typing it.... Seriously.

2. Yes, light pressures are supposed to cut better, and I note the difference with interest, but that's the reason I started this post hoping for a Storm video with updated explanations!

3. Top sands faster... makes sense, good point

4. MY Vertex spins CCW and I'm left handed. I noticed the difference in fingers vs thumb as recently as 1 hour ago while sanding for a senior tourney today.

5&6 - OMG, I've been saying that for years but the trolls on here keep saying I'm dreaming... Nice to see additional proof. Which, by the way, is why I use Mirlon Total for dry sanding... Made for it.

Thanks for adding to the discussion

Aloarjr810

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2017, 11:59:10 AM »
Al, input on your sanding notes....

1. Bathroom scales may not be accurate, but I still think it's light years ahead of trying to gauge, "light" vs "firm" just by typing it.... Seriously.
The idea is okay, there'd be a caveat.

The thing to keep in mind is, if you say 5lbs not everyone's scale maybe calibrated right/same. So whats 5lb on scale A might show as 8lbs on scale B.

I think if I did it, I'd put a ball cup on the scale and sit a ball on it. Then zero out the scale. Then Place my hand on the ball to the measure the pressure, that way your pressing against a round surface instead of the flat scale surface.


Quote
2. Yes, light pressures are supposed to cut better, and I note the difference with interest, but that's the reason I started this post hoping for a Storm video with updated explanations!
I've seen lots of sanding videos, but I've never ran across a Storm video thats strictly about sanding procedures.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 12:02:27 PM by Aloarjr810 »
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six pack

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2017, 12:41:47 PM »
what I have been doing and I like the results is I sand on the spinner with my underlying grit and then sand with the same grit in a non directional circular motion by hand with the ball in my lap. then I finish with my final grit on the spinner. I'm also a fan of skip a grit and I use very light pressure on the final grit. this is for balls with surface.
another technique I like is all grits on spinner and polish the ball then break the surface with 4000 or 3000 lightly.
Light pressure cuts better and helps the sanding media last longer. if it seems it's not enough go to a lower grit and then finish grit. From what I read and believe is the OOB finish is a number the factory puts out there but most likely not what was on your ball new so it's up to you to figure out what works. Use OOB finish specs as a loose guideline and not gospel.
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dmonroe814

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 05:52:41 PM »
Thanks for the info. I've got it saved for future reference. There's only one thing on there that puzzles me, and I've seen this before. "Touch up with the final step every 20 games". With all the studies that say how quickly a rough ball gets from 1000 to 5000 (within 3 games), I've always wondered about that statement....
I have seen the same study.  Some people call it lane shine.  Nano was the worst.  After 9 games, it looked like it was polished.  Hand finish every 3 games if you wish or at the longest every 20 games to keep it reacting like it was out of the box.  I think that is a matter of preference.
14lb 15.5 mph at pins 325 Revs. Silver Coach, Ball Driller. In Bag:  Storm Pro-Motion, Hyroad X, Matchup, Code Red.

lefty50

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2017, 02:47:12 PM »
Looking forward to the new Code Red thread. Thinking of trying that or a Code Black Limited next. I took the Intense down to 1500 for a tourney. It picks up now, but weak and too early. That's good, because now I can start working back the other way, which I'll do this week.

HackJandy

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Re: Storm video on sanding?
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2017, 09:58:55 PM »
Agreed, I'm NOT bashing either. I've seen six already and they were dynamite. I bowled against someone last night who rolled an Intense. That ball made him look good. Really good. He clobbered me. I should have put mine away, as you mentioned, get it right first. I think your point on this ball seeming to be sensitive to layout is spot on. I've got the layout within 1/4 inch of where my only other, but consistently working, asyms are (I admittedly have trouble with asyms in general) and it's so hugely different from them as a whole it's crazy.

BACK to sanding! Great info, particularly using a scale to judge pressure, a topic often debated here. Why didn't I think of that....

One thing though. Did I read that right that you do circles with the pad while sanding on a spinner?

Sorry so late; I Bowl Friday night, then Sat I train at the clinic and last night watched a big money tournament. And I drilled my Code Red Sat and gave it the maiden roll and wow! I nailed it, I’ll start a new thread on this.

Yes; I use counter close wise circles covering a quarter of the ball as the spinner goes clock wise. This gives a uniform pattern of perpendicular lines around the ball. And the scale was the only way of me being able to convey pressure in writing.

[edit]
I got caught up on the conversation here. I’ll try to hit the bullet points.
I use heavy pressure on 360 or 500 with water. Then lighter pressure as the grits go up in value. IMO the 360 and 500 is to create a new blank surface to start with.
If you go back to that article with the laser surface scanner that stated that all balls will normalize at 3700k after use. Then it’s important to erase the normalized surface and start again. As for which hand and which direction, never gave it much thought and it more comfortable and safer to me.

But I did hear an interesting theory proposed to me yesterday at clinic; in which coverstocks are best when fresh or just poured, and that they continue to cure until they fully harden in which even surface won’t bring them back. So building a large arsenal of balls may be pointless if that’s the case. Food for fresh minds or thought.

Not sure I buy that for all balls as my BVP Rampage is 10+ years old now with 1000+ games on it and just as strong as day I bought it and still takes well to surface adjustments.   Hedged my bets with plenty of urethane and some of my pieces going on nearly 30 years old and also take well to surface.  Will have to see with some of my new reactives with strong cover stocks though I suppose.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 10:00:28 PM by HackJandy »
Kind of noob when made this account so take advice with grain of salt.