BallReviews
General Category => Beginners Board => Topic started by: bowlersam on December 26, 2015, 04:27:04 AM
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Hey. I'm new to Bowling. From a place where no Pro Shop or coaches available so I learn bowling from forums and by watching YouTube videos and try to apply what I learn.
Average is 165, we don't have league play or books. It's from the record I keep. May be off by 5 pins plus minus.
I've read that one can not out bowl a bad fit and that may be my case as I fitted my self through the advices I received on different forums.
So in a nut she'll, life has given me lemons and I'm making lemonade.
Came here in hope to get some better advice. The forum I was at for last few months has a fitting system designed by Mo Pinel. But pros there are not as helpful as I would like them to be. A slight deviation from the norm and they act like I had committed a sin.
Anyway. Long story short. I need advice in fitting department.
My specs so far as I have done them myself to the best of my humanly abilities are as follows. I'm a righty by the way with dry skin and a little less flexibility than I wanted to have. My MF bends to 80* RF to 45*. Thumb doesn't want to go back beyond 90*. On a Coke Can I fall between index and MF and when I let thumb bend towards palm (I put a tennis ball on the floor, picked it up and then let it slip and allowed my fingers and thumb to meet) my thumb hits the fingers between MF and RF, don't know if this information would help.
PAP 4 and 7/8 over 1/4 up. Have no Armadillo, so I marked the first ring nearest to finger holes and brought it to horizontal and marked the top of ball. Don't know if that actually is my correct PAP, but I did my best.
Speed 14 mph off hand
Rev Rate 200 or so
Axis Rotation 45 to 55*
Axis Tilt 8 to 10*
Like to play up the boards and down and in.
I squeeze the ball. Tried not to but I do. I reckon it's because of bad fit but don't know how to correct. My fingers hurt and fingers and thumb have callouses. Over all, I'm in pain after bowling 6 games and can't bowl for next 2 days.
With minor tweaks, the pain has gone down quite a bit, but it's there, none the less.
My drilling specs are as follows.
MF 4 and 3/8, full Span, 3/8 left and 1/8 forward. Full span. Finger hole size 25/32. I started out with 11/32 but it's permanently swollen with callouses on both side of first crease.
RF 3 and 3/8 (Sarge Easter, developed trigger finger and can't go back to full finger tip in RF any more), 1/2 right and 3/8 Reverse
Thumb size 31/32, 3/16 Reverse and 1/16 Left. My non bowling hand thumb can fit in 27/28 easily, but bowling hand thumb is permanently swollen and has a bump on the first knuckle. Which I have to scrape off every week to keep it at little less in size.
That's my story in a nut shell.
Can I get some help please. I'm desperate to get rid of this pain in my fingers and hand.
As far as span is concerned, I have gone from 4 and 1/8 to 4 and 1/2. 4 and 3/8 seems much comfortable and Web around my thumb and index finger is taught but not tight. My nail hits the back of the Finger Hole a hair may be but not always.
Help please.
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Sam I am,
Looks like you be needing a road trip.
You wrote a novel explaining your situation and that your hand hurts and no one is going to have any idea why after reading that than they did before they read it. Find a pro shop, make an appointment for your next day off, and get in your car and go see them.
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My dear. Good advice. The problem is, I live in a place where there is no Pro Shop in the entire country. I wish there was, but there isn't any
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Where do you live and how are you getting balls drilled now?
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I live in Pakistan and drill my balls myself on a very old Jig a friend imported 15 years ago. It's rusty with rusty jig.
Like I said above. I'm making lemonade out lemons I have. Trying to do the best I can.
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So. Are you going to keep asking me questions or are you going to help me out here dude.
Now that you know I'm not near help as in Pro Shop or a coach, I'm seeking some advice.
So let's have it
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You can't be fit over the internet. You say you've made minor tweaks and the pain has lessened so keep gong in the same direction until you are pain free.
Everyone's bowling thumb is larger than their other thumb, so don't be concerned with that.
Most pain is either from squeezing or too long of a span, or both. Figure which it is and adjust from there.
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That sounds like a good advice. And I agree that a person can not be fitted over Internet dialogue. You are absolutely right. But I have no other choice available.
So it can be either Longer span or squeezing the ball. I was squeezing a lot when my span was at 4 and 1/4. Squeezing decreased when I went to 4 and 5/16, and further reduced on 4 and 3/8. So I went up to 4 and 7/16. At that point, my nail started hitting the back of the hole, so I went 1/16 down and back to 4 and 3/8. That seems OK. There still is a little pain, but I can manage that much amount.
Could it be that my finger pitches are wrong and don't let my hand to relax completely?
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I just have to ask....where is there a bowling alley in Pakistan? Are there leagues?
You have a good grasp on understanding grip span, finger/thumb pitches, personal specs. PAP, axis tilt, rotation, etc.
I'm impressed, but again I have to ask where do you bowl locally? You mentioned you drill your own equipment, but what do others do that you bowl with?
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Try this link : http://www.ptbf.org.pk/
They should be able to help you to find a proshop or balldriller in Pakistan.
When he/she then drills a ball for you that fits 100% perfect, you can later drill them yourself if you like, just copy the grip.(Ask the proshop operator for drillspec sheet )
Or you can also buy your balls at buddiesproshop.com pre drilled with your new specs from the new ball .
Buddies have plenty of bowlingballs to choose from and the cost of the drilling is 50 bucks.
Good luck and bowl great :)
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My dear. I'm a member of this PTBF. It has 70 members. There is no Pro Shop in the country, believe me. The Pro Shop you see on the Web page is 10x10 room a guy has, who imported some balls, shoes, and bags 10 years ago. Still has them. Look at the balls he has (no pun intended). They are from the time when dinosaurs roamed the earth.
There is no certified ball driller in entire country. There is a guy who used to drill balls, but he was a machine worker. Not a certified driller.
Are you kidding me man. Showing me a website of my Country?
My dear you have no clue whatsoever.
I purchase balls on line, have them delivered to a friend and family or a friend in USA, they bring it to me when they travel. There are 7 hook players in entire country. Including me. Rest of 100 bowlers, play straight with 10 or 12 lb polyester balls.
Please stop asking me to find a Pro Shop. If I had that opportunity, would I have come here? That's a no brainer. Have a problem, go to a Pro Shop, simple.
Yeah. But easier said than done my friend. Impossible for me.
I'm sharing a link of a YouTube video. It is from a tournament we had. Look at how everyone is playing. Pay attention to styles and balls used by the players. The people you see in the video are the total number of bowlers we have who play serious bowling.
Enjoy this. And then give me some advice, but not to find a Pro Shop.
Thanks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GQieID05vg
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And that is the idea. I want to get a near perfect fit, and then have bowlingball.com guys where I purchase my equipment.
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I am not a driller so I can only provide links or info that I have picked up from others and that may not be of much help to you. Hopefully, an experienced driller will reply to this topic and offer you some help.
I can't imagine being in your shoes and having to figure out how to drill a ball from scratch without ever having a proper fit or having one to use as an example. Hopefully you can get some better lemonade made soon. :)
For a picture of how the finger should be fitted approximately (fingertip grip) see this link:
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/btm05_files/btm5.htm (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/btm05_files/btm5.htm)
It also has some other info on the fit. I am not sure of the Sarge Easter that you use, as I am not a driller, but that has a conventional ring finger and a fingertip middle finger? If so, you can use the picture as a guide for your index finger or whichever is supposed to be a fingertip grip.
More info on thumb and fit:
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/btm04_files/btm4.htm (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/btm04_files/btm4.htm)
Info on calluses:
http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Fitting_Tips/fitting.html (http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Fitting_Tips/fitting.html)
General info:
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm (http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm)
If I recall properly, when I had an issue with soreness on one side of my thumb, the driller increased the drill angle or pitch on the side that was sore.
Good luck in your quest to find the proper fit and I do hope that someone with more knowledge can help you in this. They may also correct any mistakes I accidentally offered you.
And as far as your video link, every country or bowler has to start somewhere. At least the interest and enthusiasm is there. Good luck to your organization too.
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If you upload a picture of your ball this could be useful, a picture will give the people here more information they need to now to help you.
Like do you use insert in your thumbhole, is it round or oval. It can be a very easy solution to your problem, but it is not so easy to fix without seeing your hand and ball together.
Take some pictures with your hand in it and hopefully someone here can help you.
Best of luck, bowl great :)
Ps!
I live in Norway and also buy balls online, you should check out ebay, i paid 23 bucks for a nib brunswick ball one time :)
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Where specifically does your hand hurt?
I would guess with the description of the jig you gave that you are using a round thumb hole. With your right thumb that much bigger than your left your thumb is definitely oval. Are you taping the hole to fill the gap to tighten it up around the bumps on your thumb?
Are you using an insert or regular hole for your middle finger? If you are using a round hole are you taping the gap from front to back caused by the bumps on the sides of your finger?
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You are right about round thumb hole as I don't have access to Ovalmatic machine. And yes. I'm taping front and back of the thumb hole to make it snug all around.
It rubs on the upper left quadrant of the hole while exiting. Between 10 o'clock and 11 o'clock on the hole if you take center Grip line as 12 o'clock.
As far as fingers are concerned, yes, round holes there and no inserts. I have recently ordered VISE 7.5 Ovals on line and they will reach me in January when a friend is visiting. But for now it's Round finger hole and I don't tape it.
What I did recently is drilled a size smaller and then beveled the sides to make it somewhat Oval. It fits better now.
That is one of the minor tweaks I mentioned in original post.
Thanks both of you for guidance. I read Ron Clifton before. Many articles. Partially helpful was the about 6 basic fundamentals.
My quest continues.
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I just have to ask....where is there a bowling alley in Pakistan? Are there leagues?
You have a good grasp on understanding grip span, finger/thumb pitches, personal specs. PAP, axis tilt, rotation, etc.
I'm impressed, but again I have to ask where do you bowl locally? You mentioned you drill your own equipment, but what do others do that you bowl with?
There are two alleys in my city. One has 12 lanes another 16. One has oiling machine, as old as my jig. Puts 18 ml to 40 feet, flat 1:1 from board 1 to 39. No room for error. Another puts oil by spray can and spread it with a mop. Quantity, ratio, who knows. Sometimes 40 feet, sometimes 45. Both oil 3 times a week. Once only each time.
Most players play with House Balls. Only 20 players Carey their own balls to the alley. 15 of them are C300 White Dot 10 and 12 lb and they play straight. Bought from Dubai and Kuwait mostly when these bowlers visited those places.
Others buy straight Chinese balls from a guy who calls his office Pro Shop. Then they get drilled on the same machine I mentioned by a guy who works as a lane man there. Basically what he does is fingers 3/8 both sides, thumb 0 and 0. Fingers 7/8 thumb 15/16 for every one, and brags that no one ever hung in his drilled balls. Some can fit both fingers in one hole as the holes are that big for them. No one bothers. They all play straight.
5 other guys have hook balls bought out side of Pakistan.
We have only one player who has scored a single 300 game in the entire country.
I hope that answers all your questions.
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Take a look. This is the boy who scored first ever 300 game in Pakistan
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Rubbing in that area is pretty common in that area when an oval thumb is coming out of a round hole. You can take a bevel knife and with just a few scrapes you should be able to feel a difference. When you do it take the knife down into the hole about 1/2" and give it a few scrapes at the same angle that your thumb comes out of the ball. Just enough to get the edge off in that area, but not excessive.
The finger insert should help relieve the pressure on the sides of your finger as it will be oval shaped like your finger. Don't be afraid to tape the finger hole also until you are able to try the insert.
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Rubbing in that area is pretty common in that area when an oval thumb is coming out of a round hole. You can take a bevel knife and with just a few scrapes you should be able to feel a difference. When you do it take the knife down into the hole about 1/2" and give it a few scrapes at the same angle that your thumb comes out of the ball. Just enough to get the edge off in that area, but not excessive.
The finger insert should help relieve the pressure on the sides of your finger as it will be oval shaped like your finger. Don't be afraid to tape the finger hole also until you are able to try the insert.
Thanks. I'll try Bevel in the thumb hole next week end when I drill an old ball.
This sounds like help I was looking for. Thanks.
My goal is to get a good fit, to the best of my abilities, so I can send the spec sheet to Bowlingball.com Tony Ruuco to get my new Arsenal drilled with an oval VISE iT switch Grip. That's the dream.
But before I do that, I have to make sure the specs are as close to perfect as possible.
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You may want to try to get ahold of some oval thumb inserts to try. They will fit the shape of you thumb better. They can be installed with either a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 bit depending on the brand and size.
Keep in mind if you are able to order and get some that the sizes don't correspond with the round size of you thumb. You would need to go bigger with the insert size.
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You may want to try to get ahold of some oval thumb inserts to try. They will fit the shape of you thumb better. They can be installed with either a 1 1/8 or 1 1/4 bit depending on the brand and size.
Keep in mind if you are able to order and get some that the sizes don't correspond with the round size of you thumb. You would need to go bigger with the insert size.
Can you provide a link to which company and from where to order on line. Thanks
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I sent you a private message.
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+1 on the oval inserts. I tried one yesterday for the first time. I was ripping the skin a bit on the inside of my thumb. It was very simple to put in the oval insert and I threw the ball MUCH better. The stated size will change though, and that's a gamble... Just as a reference... I went from a regular thumb drilled with a 15/16 hole to an insert using 1-1/64. It's ok, but maybe even a bit snug. 1-1/32 would have been even better. I'm going to try it again in next practice and will convert everything if I have the same improvement in feel.
Also, I applaud your efforts to make this work with no help available. Please ignore some of the people on here who insist on a pro shop. Most of the people on this board are very blessed, and sometimes can't comprehend what it would be like to have to do this without the right facilities. There are others on here who will help you with general knowledge on things to try.. Cause and effect types of guidance. Good luck...
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Lefty with another pot shot at Rico and others. Can't let it go and no wonder why you are so despised. Maybe you don't realize this at your age, but you can reply without making a comment about others and just respond to the OP. Just like i would have if you didn't want to run your mouth again.
Back to the OP...when I first bought my oval thumb inserts/slugs...I still had to make minor modifications to the slug after installation. Very important to understand that installation is number one and super important as if the angle is slightly off from one ball to the other you are going to make more modifications to one ball than another. At least for me, you just do not install the thumb insert and off you go.
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I use the Vise V2 vinyl oval thumb insert with their 'angle right' tool which is awesome. Only issue with it is the vinyl insert is not as flexible to glue it in as other thumb inserts.
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Wowzers, why start something brother? Just focus on the OP, and help him. I can't imagine not having the facilities to go in for help, and yes, I do think we're all pretty blessed. If that one's a crime, so be it.
Sam, he's right. Gotta be careful on getting it to fit right, but I think they're great. I've heard they make both vinyl and urethane, and there's a definite difference in how quickly they release from your thumb, but I'd defer to others on that point. I've only tried the one type so far. It was a good thing to find out though.
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Bowlersam, since you are going to be installing finger inserts, here is a link to a video on installing them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5JpbdHWcGQ
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I never searched for this info before because I do have a driller I trust now so I leave all of that to him, but Innovative does have a series of videos showing their proshop products. You may find some useful info in some of them (I did not watch them).
https://www.youtube.com/user/innovativebowling/videos
Which also begs the question: What proshop tools do you have to work with? Do you have a pitch gauge, ProSect, ball spinner, bevel knife, etc?
Your use of the English language is impressive.
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What proshop tools do you have to work with? Do you have a pitch gauge, ProSect, ball spinner, bevel knife, etc?
Your use of the English language is impressive.
I have Bevel Knife and Wax Pencil. Both bought on line. Nothing more.
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Lefty, you should take your own advice. Why did you have to include the pot shot in your answer which you posted first. If you don't want someone else finishing what you started, don't start anything and focus on your own advice, and only focus on what the original OP asked. You could have posted your response without including the pot shot.
Sam....as for the fit, this is going to be trial and error. In my experience almost NEVER do you get the right fit the first time out. You are going to have to get it close, go try it on the lanes, see how it feels, and if it is good, keep trying it over a few days. If it is not good, go back, make an adjustment, and go back until you get it to where you want the feel. Don't make a wholesale change in every ball until you can bowl for a few days over multiple games to account for swelling and shrinkage in your hand/thumb. Once you get comfortable and you have taken some time, then make the change in your other equipment.
With you being in the middle of the season, it is tough to make a change like this. Feel is everything and if you are thinking about your thumb, you are not going to be concentrating somewhere else, especially during league. Practice practice practice.
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Lefty, you should take your own advice. Why did you have to include the pot shot in your answer which you posted first. If you don't want someone else finishing what you started, don't start anything and focus on your own advice, and only focus on what the original OP asked. You could have posted your response without including the pot shot.
Sam....as for the fit, this is going to be trial and error. In my experience almost NEVER do you get the right fit the first time out. You are going to have to get it close, go try it on the lanes, see how it feels, and if it is good, keep trying it over a few days. If it is not good, go back, make an adjustment, and go back until you get it to where you want the feel. Don't make a wholesale change in every ball until you can bowl for a few days over multiple games to account for swelling and shrinkage in your hand/thumb. Once you get comfortable and you have taken some time, then make the change in your other equipment.
With you being in the middle of the season, it is tough to make a change like this. Feel is everything and if you are thinking about your thumb, you are not going to be concentrating somewhere else, especially during league. Practice practice practice.
Thanks. But there is no league. There never has been.
I now understand that I can not make many changes at one time. But the hand is interconnected bones and flesh. If I have the thumb pitch right for my hand but have wrong finger pitches, my hand will sit differently on the ball and correct thumb pitch could feel all wrong. And Vise versa.
I know it is hard. A hell lot hard to get a correct fit DIY kinda way but my choices are, we'll, none. Only one way. I do it myself, blow it, start over.
First it was span. Thank God it's corrected within 1/16th of an inch.
Thumb all the way in, upto to the knuckle, finger laid on ball, and no feeling of stretch anywhere.
I need to get this feeling after putting my fingers, too, in the ball.
I tried MF with. 4 and 1/8th to 4 and 3/8s. 3/8 doesn't make it feel too bad. Still pinches at the sides of the crease though. Nail very seldom touches back of the hole.
Next I'm thinking of moving my MF pitch to 3/8 Reverse instead of 1/8 forward. This might make it easier to feel the ball with the pad of my finger without pulling my thumb up.
Let's see what advices I receive and how good they work.
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Sam
You are correct in your description of how everything in the span/grip is connected. The tough part is knowing what is right versus what feels right but may be not there yet.