Post by: Miffy1980 on January 02, 2010, 01:04:18 AM
also due to other commitments, i stopped bowling for a good 6 years and recently caught the bowling bug during a chanced outing at an alley. i didnt have coaching prior the big break from bowling. I am more of a serious amature that bowls a lot with some mates, had a starters set, got a quantum ball at cash converters and thats about it.
guess what, after all these years, the only thing that survived storage is the plastic ball. quantum cracked, shoes just fell apart (real cheapo starters shoes).
and i figured if i still have the passion after stopping all these years, thats gotta mean something right.
right now im bowling with my cousin on a 1 time per week basis right now. i am still using my 12lbs plastic ball. i have put on a fair bit of weight over the years and i am now 132lbs. so im thinking of getting new gear. mainly because that old 12lbs has a pretty wide thumb hole, it seems that i squeeze the thumb a fair bit in the past and now that the ball feels lighter, i dont do that anymore more, coupled with adding more pressure on the index, i now have a ball dropping problem. so new gear for the new year i suppose
however this is where you guys come in.
im kinda hesitant when the pro shop guy suggest i get a 14lbs ball. i was looking at maybe a 13lb. but it seems to be some kind of a cult with 14s here. its like every proshop owner i spoke to (3 in total) suggest i go 14lbs.
what do u guys reckon on that?
here is my general plan, get a new plastic ball, get proper coaching and see where i go from there.
not going to get any reactives yet, i figure go plastic with the coaching on my basics first, finger tip grip, proper 5step approach, get a good swing and release, work on a consistent aim, THEN we talk about learning oil, lane conditions and ball reactions.
Post by: JohnP on January 02, 2010, 09:35:14 AM
Post by: Juggernaut on January 02, 2010, 10:13:42 AM
.Here is what I see. I see someone who would like to get back into an activity that they once participated in, but on a limited basis, even thouh they are a little more serious about it than your "average" recreational bowler.
It sounds like you have a good gameplan for getting back into things. Problem is, things have changed so much in the last few years that I'm not sure you can learn the proper mechanics with a plastic ball anymore.
The oils they use today are much "slicker" than the older oils, and they use much higher volumes at many centers than ever before. At many centers, a plastic ball will give you NO reaction because of this. That makes it hard to read whether you are actually performing the release properly because the ball never reads the pattern due to its low frictional qualities.
I'm more concerned with your ball choice than I am with the weight of the ball. True, John P. has stated facts about the difference between 14lb and 13lb (and lighter) balls, but more important to you at this point ( I feel ) is being able to have a ball with enough frictional capabilities to help you see the difference between proper and improper execution, even if this means going with a reactive ball.
There are a few balls that still have some dynamic core integrity in a 13lb weight. Storm lists their three "HOT" line ( FAST, FURIOUS, and NATURAL ) of balls all the way down to the 13lb level with good numbers.
If simplicity sounds good to you, then don't even worry about core dynamics yet, and just go with an old style ball with a stronger cover on it. Hammer still offers a couple like that, the original RAZYR ( http://hammerbowling.com/products/product_detail/razyr_purple/ ) and the newer Red/Black one ( http://hammerbowling.com/products/product_detail/razyr_black_red/ ).
14lb balls would be better because of a wider variety, and a bit more powerful than the 13lb ones, but NOT if you can't throw them. Having too heavy a ball is as bad as not having one heavy enough.
If you feel comfortable with 13lbs, then I say go with that first, then, if you think you could handle more, upgrade to 14lbs when you go to buy your "good" ball.
Sorry this got so long, just want to see you weigh your options so that you can come back and really enjoy the sport/game again. It's GREAT!
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Post by: charlest on January 02, 2010, 01:55:27 PM
One other item that I don't think was mentioned yet: once your ball is fit for your hand, with the right pitches (angles of the holes) and span, you will be handle to handle a heavier ball than your plastic with the too large thumb hole. This is even more true for alley or center balls which use generic sized holes and spans.
If the ball fits you right, you'll be able to easily use 1 - 2 pounds heavier ball than when a ball does not fit you correctly.
I also like your plan to take one step at a time. Good luck.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Miffy1980 on January 02, 2010, 10:21:12 PM
Your posts were all great to read and not too lengthy.
Im a guy.
I am going to give your comments a deeper thought and let u guys know what comes up.
I do particularly like point on gettting something reactive to learn to read lanes while im at it. And its a valid point that i missed out regarding the ability to tell if i had a proper release with a reactive shell.
o yeh guys, i have been trying to get myself up to date with the current line ups of the various brands out there, back in my time, there was particle coverstock, but now i only see proprietor coverstock names. How do i tell if its a reactive shell or a particle shell? i guess this is more pertaining to the higher end series. Im not looking at getting them anytime but it would be good to know.
Or have they marketed particle balls differently from 6 years ago? because back then, they'd make sure u know its a particle coverstock.
Post by: Juggernaut on January 02, 2010, 11:00:37 PM
That doesn't mean they're not still out there, but they are very seldom marketed as that anymore. Usually, if they are particle, you will find somewhere that they have an "additive" or "mica" or some other thing added to increase friction, and it many times ends up being a particle of some type.
If you ever have a question about a ball, come here and ask. There are officionados from virtually every company that come through here from time to time, and quite a few staff guys here who will have insight into ball construction and cover composition, and that's not even counting the nerdy guys (like me) who keep up with things like that as a recreational activity
.With the recent changes in coverstock technology, particle technology has almost become redundant. Solid reactives are so strong anymore that you really don't need particles anymore, but they're still some out there.
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Post by: Miffy1980 on January 03, 2010, 03:44:45 AM
Wow.. thats pretty amazing..
well id definitely be back with questions. seems like a great era for bowling.
wait till i tell my mates about particle. It would knock them off their socks.
Post by: Miffy1980 on January 04, 2010, 03:22:40 AM
And had the opportunity to talk to the shop owner whom is giving my cousin lessons, (yup seems thats how it works around here, u give coaching as well as run the shop).
Talked to him to arrange lessons of my own, and when i mentioned about getting new gear, it took him 3 seconds and 2 questions to jump in with his recommendation.
Shop owner and to-be coach: so u have an existing plastic ball i see
me: erm yes, and im looking to get new gear and step up from 12lbs to 14lbs with your coaching i hope that would work out.so im kinda looking for a 14lbs plastic ball before we kick start lessons proper.
Shop owner: O why not get a 13lbs entry level reactive and u can use the 12 for spares. that way u wont need to get 2 balls.
me: (my BS radar switches on) ok what do u have in mind? like get a scout or groove?
Shop owner: nah, i was thinking tropical storm, its one level up of scout.
me:Oh u mean it have a bulb core?
Shop owner: (surprised) yeh, but its still entry level.
me
looks around and steps up to his display) u mean this one? (pointing to the only tropical storm on display like Captain Obvious)Shop ower: yeh thats the one, its a 13lbs.(something tells me thats the only tropical storm in the shop)
me: picks up the ball, flips it over and notices pin and CG are practically kissing each other.
I commented on it (pretending i know what that meant, and showed concerned)
shop owner: O thats alright for entry level balls to have pins and CG right next to each other, its going to be drilled mild anyways.
me: I see, well let me go think about your suggestion and I will call you to make arrangements for the lessons?
Shop owner: Ok
Guys what do you think? honestly speaking, i know nuts about pins and CG and layouts.
care to educate me on pin and CG distance
More importantly, what do you guys think of the shop owner and what is he trying to pull? is my BS radar working?
Edited on 1/4/2010 4:23 AM
Post by: dizzyfugu on January 04, 2010, 04:15:08 AM
I'd either go for an entry level ball (Tropical Storm is agood choice, also Brunswick's Power Grooves) or a lower end mid price piece, which costs a bit more but offers a "true" core, making the ball rollier and easier to handle on oilier conditions.
Additionally, I'd consider a new spare ball of the same weight and also with the same drilling. When I started with fingertip, I had a 14 lbs. conventional polyester spare ball and a 14 lbs. fingertip reactive. While this difference does not sound serious, I found the different feeling very confusing. And it only got better when I finally moved to 15 lbs. all fingertip.
Concerning the offered Tropical Storm: yes, entry level balls tend to have both CG and pin close to each other. But as a fingertip beginner you will probably get a so-called label-layout, with the CG in the palm area and the pin whereever it will end up in a north-east position from the CG. This is frequent practice, because your ball driller will hardly have a reference (the PAP) of your game to cook together a more sophisticated setup, and you will probably only need a ball that just "hooks" until you have a stable style and release.
That's another selling point for an entry level ball - start small, do not "waste" money with an expensive first fingertip ball rather save something for the next one (which might already be 1 pound heavier!) and/or a coach, to get the basics right.
Good luck, though, and have fun!
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Post by: Miffy1980 on January 04, 2010, 05:20:05 AM
Will keep you guys posted on my progress.
The advice i get here makes so much more sense and have so much more depth that i have been getting at the shops.
Ok i guess im ready to get so gear, it will take place within a week or so, depending my schedule.
My next concern is the thumb hole. Anything i should pay attention to? I am going for finger inserts and thumb slug. Round hole? I did read the sticky in the other section but i dont quite understand what bevel means and its difference to oval.
anyone can clue me in on that?
Post by: AngloBowler on January 04, 2010, 06:36:24 AM
Glad to see you're putting a lot of thought and time into this, something surprisingly few people do.
It does sound like he's trying to get rid of his last tropical storm if I'm honest. I think that if you find your 12 lb ball light and you've noticed the drilling is not right for you, then chances are a properly drilled 13 is going to feel light as well. I would suggest 14 lb as a minimum.
If you can pick up a cheap entry-level reactive, then it's worth a look as you should be able to drill it mild enough that you can learn with it. Way back when, I started with my first reactive, and it was the only ball I had for about 2-3 years, which limited me in some respects but made the game easier in others.
The reason I suggest going for something budget is that you may find in 6 months that you're ready to move up to 15 lb. If you are, you haven't spent a bundle on a 14 lb ball (which may be difficult to resell), if you're not, you still have a usable ball to learn with.
As for pin-CG distances, I would imagine you'd want something shortish (2" or less) so that you can put a label drill on it, which should keep it nice and calm.
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Post by: dizzyfugu on January 04, 2010, 07:19:48 AM
Tape might sound exotic to a beginner, but do not underestimate it - esp. when the thumb hole has room - you might tend to have to grip too tight, and tape is the best remedy.
For bevel and such, try the ball immediately after it has been drilled. Normally, the ball driller will hand you the ball for test fitting, and you should tell if you have the feeling that you hang onto the ball somewhere, or that there are areas which rub or cause pressure. The ball driller will be careful not to sand away to much in the beginning, since what's gone is gone!
As a final notion, I'd also recommend a thumb slug and probably finger inserts. The thumb slug will give you an even feel (filler can be rough), esp. when you have more than one ball, and the finger inserts will improve grip and lift - overall, handling the ball becomes a bit more comfortable.
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Post by: JohnP on January 04, 2010, 10:32:48 AM
Post by: Miffy1980 on January 04, 2010, 08:49:16 PM
much appreciated advice.
Anglo, I never gave 15 a thought, id be happy with 14, but now that u mention it.. hmm... very interesting.
Post by: dizzyfugu on January 05, 2010, 12:30:13 AM
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Post by: Miffy1980 on January 06, 2010, 12:01:51 AM
His contact was given to me by an old friend. called him up, had a good chat. I am going to start lessons with him next monday and guess what when i mentioned if i should get new gear from him prior to lessons,
he said i should hold back, go with the first lesson, he brings along a video camera for all his coaching, talks about wanting find out my axis tilt and other stuff before laying out anything for me.
after that lesson, we are going to head down to his shop (apparently he has a shop not within the centre) and then talk abt gears.
sounds so much more professional than the centre shops i have been talking to.
this is looking good. Will keep you guys posted.
Guys just to check, is there and what is a USBC silver coach?
Post by: dizzyfugu on January 06, 2010, 04:09:18 AM
Much success, and have fun!
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Post by: completebowler on January 06, 2010, 05:35:23 AM
quote:
Guys, i think i might have found the right coach and person to get my gear from.
His contact was given to me by an old friend. called him up, had a good chat. I am going to start lessons with him next monday and guess what when i mentioned if i should get new gear from him prior to lessons,
he said i should hold back, go with the first lesson, he brings along a video camera for all his coaching, talks about wanting find out my axis tilt and other stuff before laying out anything for me.
after that lesson, we are going to head down to his shop (apparently he has a shop not within the centre) and then talk abt gears.
sounds so much more professional than the centre shops i have been talking to.
this is looking good. Will keep you guys posted.
Guys just to check, is there and what is a USBC silver coach?
Yes there is a USBC silver coach. It is a coaching accreditation system that gives certification to individuals that meet certain requirements according to USBC.
I have worked in a shop for a few years now and been an avid bowler for twenty. I agree with most of the prior posts that 14 pounds is at least where you should start. The dynamics of equipment when you move from 13 to 14 is considerable.
I think an entry level resin is your best bet. Maybe even a tier up. I think a Storm Furious is one of the best bets for someone learning. As mentioned before it will allow you to visually see what is going on down lane. Being a solid cover (and a pretty strong one at that) the Furious will accentuate this ability.
I think you are in good shape overall at this point. Many have offered good advice and you probably are in the hands of a good coach. Don't pay too much attention to layouts as of yet considering nobody knows what style you might develop yet. Layout is only approx. 10% of ball reaction and pin/cg/mb placement is even less than that.
Good luck.
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"He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors" - THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Post by: Miffy1980 on January 06, 2010, 08:32:30 AM
I forgot to mention that im from Singapore, so im really not familiar with USBC. It seems I have found myself a really good coach seeing he got his accreditation from the States.
This is going to be great.
Post by: Miffy1980 on January 11, 2010, 08:31:25 AM
we started at 10am, open a lane for 1.5hours.
its more of a profiling stage where he asked me to bowl my usual, went on for a couple of shots, then he whip out his notebook and showed me the program he uses for coaching and analyzing bowlers. the program is pretty kool, with the video, u can identify the tape on the ball to calculate rev rates etc etc.
Showed me a clip of an ideal strike, talked a bit more on some fundamentals, then proceeded to the backend of the lane, first time i actually went down the lane in person, its kinda kool, (we were on the side lanes) i could literally see where the oiling stopped (38 ft) and backend was dry.
moved back up, and started with vid shot of me. then plug it to his notebook and presto, analyzed my front, side and back, he could use the program to freeze frame and draw lines from body CofG and line it up to foot, etc etc, pointed out my flaws.
could see for myself my backswing was twisted and thus my shots had high tendency to gutter, but since its intermittent, i cant adjust.
it was like i was on the operating table, and the surgeon was working on me, watching the vid was like an out of body experience. Together with his explanation it was easy to understand my mistakes and the advantages of correcting them.
then we went back to his shop, came a presentation on bowling ball 101. full explaination of important ball reference points, RG, differential etc etc.coverstock etc etc. it was full on and luckily i already had done my ground work with information from here. heh heh
then he went on about ball weight, and he got my PAP, a rough one base on my ball track, but still a PAP nonetheless.
decided on 14lbs, but here comes the tricky part. he wasnt aware i was up to date on ballline ups from the various brands.
his stock at hand was somewhat disappointing,old lineups, from 2007 to some plastic balls to have somewhat a yellow tinge that u would see from old age. saw a couple Columbia ricochet.
there was a crash and bang from ebonite if i am not mistaken. but in light weights.
basically nothing much to choose from. had a choice of firing inferno,world domination (both from the international line ups) and a blackwidow it think.
so when i turned down his suggestion on the 3 high end balls and proceeded to talk about his storm furious as the kind of ball i am looking for, it being a strong solid reactive with its counter part "Fast" being the pearlize version, thats when he was surprised that a) i know my stuff b) i have internet connection c) i can read product catalog. haha
long story short, i found a groove sitting at a corner, it was 14lbs 1oz, it was ideal for me. so tomorrow i am going to get my first "learners car" together with my first leson on ball mapping and the whole process of taking measurements to the finished product. its like the mechanic talking thru with me while working on my car. Is that fantastic or what?
Post by: dizzyfugu on January 11, 2010, 08:45:39 AM
That the hottest stuff out there was not available at the pro shop must not be a bad thing. In my club's pro shop, for example, there are still stocks of vintage pieces (every now and then a Quantum from the 90ies pops up!), and these normally go to beginners or the club's youth program. And even these things hook - it is literally in the operator's hands.
Starting with a Groove is a good basis, and remember that once you have some stable game, more sophisticated balls and layouts will start making sense at all. So, just be patient, learn, and keep eyes and ears open.
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Post by: Miffy1980 on January 11, 2010, 09:43:22 AM
i forgot to add that if i wanted newer stuff, i could probably get him to order from the supplier.
was just a tad disappointed when the storm furious Completebowler recommended was a 12lbs. but after a though, hey its a learners car, so yeh, settled with groove.
we just met for like less than half a day and i was already snooping around his shop, since its in a mall its much bigger compared to the ones in bowling centres, and u are right, its not such a bad thing, lots of classic stuff lying around, i even saw a couple of boxes marked "rubber ball"
im definitely going to be patient and learn the ropes the proper way, i think i mellowed a fair bit over the years, hah.
Post by: JohnP on January 11, 2010, 10:14:16 AM
Well, the Freeze hooks MORE than his Tantrum, it's way stronger than a dry lane ball should be. Part of that is that with the increase to 15 lbs he lost some speed and has more of a problem controlling the Freeze. For the price it's a great performer, but don't think it's a dry lane ball. -- JohnP
Post by: Miffy1980 on January 17, 2010, 06:07:29 AM
This question came up, can i just post them here instead of creating a new thread every time i have a new quesion? seems better i post them here. let me know otherwise.
ok back to my questions, we have seen pro shops or ebay with a NIB oldie but goldie from time to time. how do they keep so well? the reason im asking is, when i was bowling 6 years ago, i had an ebonite matrix dynasty and a quantum raven. both of them after 6 years of storage, formed a long single line crack across the surface.
is there a difference (on a micorscopic level or physical level) between NIBs and used ones in storage life and makes new balls keep better? it sounds like an obvious question, but id hope someone can educate me on the science. my old gears were never exposed to extreme temps in car boots and im located on the equator, the only seasons we have here are sunny, rainy and shopping seasons.
I do have to admit, i was never diligent on cleaning them. was that all it took to make them crack?
would a proper de-oil, reface and polished before long term storage prevented the cracks?
inputs and experience is much appreciated.
Post by: AngloBowler on February 03, 2010, 07:30:03 AM
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Reporting from England