Post by: Nicanor on March 27, 2011, 11:40:44 PM
I bought a couple of Alpha Maxes but have only a few games on the ball. But the Alpha Max sold very quickly here and I see a lot of them being thrown. Many of the bowlers stated that after a couple of weeks, the ball stopped hooking. This is very general with bowlers that might not have a lot of knowledge about surface prep. I noticed it in one of my Alpha Maxes also and wondered if it had to do with the Chemical Friction Technology.
I had a 200 Ablaron pad in the bag and for three of the bowlers I used some water and the 2000 Abalron pad (used previously) by hand and cleaned the ball and used a ball cleaner after the Ablaron use. The ball pretty much came back to life. When I went home, I used a 2000 used Ablaron pad with water slow speed on my Alpha Max and cleaned the ball with Clean and Tacky. The ball really came back to life.
So looking at the picture of the Alpha Max coverstock, it makes me wonder how dureable the coverstock is and when we do use an abrasive on the ball, how is it really effecting the coverstock?
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 28, 2011, 10:26:06 AM
I would guess any cover that starts dull with no polish will not last long before needing some surface prep to get the original look on the lane back. They (any dull ball) will absorb oil and start to have a more shinned look when compared to the same ball undrilled.
I've had this happen with a few different bowling balls over the years that have surface. When polished, not nearly the same amount of maintenance was needed.
Be good, or be good at it.
Post by: OddBalls on March 28, 2011, 11:16:14 AM
When you change the surface of a CFT ball, doesn't it effect the CFT process?
In other words, does it make the effect of the CFT void and you're now relying on the NEW surface you just put down and the reactive properties of the resin??
Yes. it's I, the Inverted One..
Post by: charlest on March 28, 2011, 11:27:40 AM
Barry,
The Roto-Grip/Storm people have already said that some of their new coverstocks, like the Theory, will lose performance within SEVEN (7) games, unless the surface is renewed regularly.
I don't think the Alpha Max is the exception here. The higher the performance, the more important ball maintenance seems to be. This seems especially true with balls intended to handle heavier oils, like the Alpha, Theory, Nano, and the like, because not only are they absorbing oil like crazy (even the new super covers) with their dull surfaces, they are also being compressed, changing the Ra with each use.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
"Some bowlers are crazy as pickled cats."
Edited by charlest on 3/28/2011 at 11:28 AM
Post by: Visionary 4626 on March 28, 2011, 12:33:45 PM
My C-Systems 2.5 and 3.5 have lost a lot of their hook power as well. I clean my equipment after every set and with a towel when the ball comes back to the ball return. This coverstock just doesn't seem to have the durability of other Brunswick coverstocks that we are used to. Maybe that is why Big B has stopped producing them?
T Scott
USBC Bronze Coach
PBA Member
Post by: on March 28, 2011, 01:42:57 PM
Yes. They do require some maintenance, especially if you are seeing plenty of friction. Re-read the post from "charlest" in this thread.
It's all about "topography" on the surface. As we start with a more coarse grit we create microscopic peaks and valleys on the cover. Then we will typically jump right to the finished grit or polish. The more steps in between, the more we lose those peaks and valleys and the ball's ability to displace oil. The same is true as we throw the ball. The friction on the lane gradually smoothes out the peaks and valleys and the ball isn't quite as strong as when first purchased.
Any ball that is made for more volume will experience the same thing at varying rates. I don't want to mention any specific company's ball, but in the shop we are regularly tweaking covers to wake them up.
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: Nicanor on March 28, 2011, 03:29:33 PM
Notclay, CharlesT,
But as Oddballs mentioned and my real question is: if we use Ablaron or any other abrasive do we change the CFT and just make the surface like any other ball and the Chemical Friction Technology is worn off by the abrasive?
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: RSalas on March 28, 2011, 03:50:17 PM
I haven't changed surface on either alpha-max (haven't had to yet), but I did so rather frequently with my C-(System) 3.5, and never saw any loss of reaction when restoring to box finish.
I can't speak *definitively* as to the effect of abrasives upon the CFT additive, but I can say that, during the conference calls for the C-(System) releases, there has been an emphasis on the wider "window" of overall hook with the CFT balls when going from 1000 smooth to High Gloss, and because of this, we've been strongly encouraged to use surface adjustments to obtain different looks. I'd think that, if the CFT additive were that sensitive to changes, we'd be advised against tweaking the cover.
Ray Salas
Brunswick Amateur Staff
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
Post by: Visionary 4626 on March 28, 2011, 04:02:24 PM
I have not changed the surface on my C-System 3.5 and I have definitely observed a loss of hook power at the breakpoint. I can use it now to play a much straighter line than I was when I first bought it. There is not a lot of games on it either. Compared to say the Inferno line this ball has not held up near as well. It is still better than an Ebonite product, but not what I have come to expect from Brunswick.
T Scott
USBC Bronze Coach
PBA Member
Post by: on March 28, 2011, 05:11:07 PM
By changing the surface texture you do not change the chemical make up of the coverstock. You can change how the ball reads the lane, but not the chemical make up. That is part of the cover - all through the cover.
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: JustRico on March 28, 2011, 05:15:19 PM
It is an additive in the cover stock, no different than any other additive...therefore adjusting the surface will effect no differently than any other cover stock...
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: on March 28, 2011, 05:24:41 PM
My 2.5 has maybe 200 of games on it. All I have done is to periodically do a light resurface and polish. A while back I put it in the Revivor and saw nothing coming out, which somewhat surprised me. The ball is a carry monster.
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Edited by notclay on 3/28/2011 at 5:25 PM
Edited by notclay on 3/28/2011 at 5:26 PM
Post by: Nicanor on March 28, 2011, 07:20:15 PM
Thank you for the responses, it was very helpful.
Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: jls on April 01, 2011, 08:30:04 AM
If you are using a ball with surface...I tell my customers to clean the ball and hit it with the
pad every 3 games...If not, the cover will take on a shine after a few games...
If you are using the ball polished, I tell my customers to use a good ball cleaner after
every 3 games and re-polish after 6-9 games...
And about every 30 games, draw the oil out of the ball...
Cleaning your bowling ball is like putting gas in your car...If you don't, you car will stop
running after about 250-300 miles...
But most bowlers just toss their balls in their bags when done and race for the bar...
And then they wonder why their ball lost it's reaction...
And what's even worst is when you see a farmer pull his ball out of his bag BEFORE bowling
and clean it...That ball has been soaked with oil for at least a week...Not good...
The Jackie Gleason era of bowling is over...Todays coverstocks need to be cleaned...and the sooner
after bowling, the better...
And don't even get me started about using alcohol...
If I had a dime for every customer who said, "I use alcohol" I would be rich...
And when they do, I take some good ball cleaner and a clean towel and go over the ball that they just
cleaned using alcohol... And watch their faces as the towel turns BLACK....
Clean balls are healthy balls...
BTW, in my area, most use the Alpha Max with ruff buff polish...
jls
Post by: charlest on April 01, 2011, 08:47:29 AM
Very quotable comments, jls.
You do pro shops proud.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
"Some bowlers are crazy as pickled cats."
Post by: cappy718 on April 01, 2011, 01:55:56 PM
I dont understand JLS...why is alcohol bad? I've done exactly what you said turns your rag black and mine never does. The alcohol always gets it all off for me. Please explain...
~Scott
"Celebrate we will, cuz life is short but sweet for certain"
Post by: jls on April 01, 2011, 02:51:47 PM
Is your ball polished or left dull...
Did you use something like Clean & Dull or Motiv Scuff Gel?
Now if you are using your ball polished, alcohol will strip the polish off...Therefore you would
have to re-polish the ball after every cleaning...
If you use a good ball cleaner that is made to work with polish, you will not have to re-polish
your ball after every cleaning...You may get 6-9 games between polishing...
And that saves you money...
jls
Post by: cappy718 on April 01, 2011, 11:49:34 PM
~Scott
"Celebrate we will, cuz life is short but sweet for certain"
Post by: jls on April 02, 2011, 08:51:31 AM
Sir, let me see if I undersatnd what you are doing...You cleaned your balls with alcohol...And then
you took a cleaner like clean & dull and re did the ball? Using a clean towel? And the towel did
not get dirty? If so that's a first to me... Then I would say you are doing a good job cleaning your
bowling balls...
Now as for the ball that won't hook...Have you tried a hot water bath...Then hit it with a 500 pad and work
it up to 1000 and then a 2000 pad...
jls
Post by: cappy718 on April 02, 2011, 03:47:36 PM
JLS...I was playing with the cover on the Gladiator and I had hot water bath/resurface by hand to 1000AB/polished by hand. Think I went a little overboard on the polish is all. 1000 AB and I couldnt control it...should have went 2000 first before polish oh well...I'll get it figured out
Anyhow, kind of hijacked this thread...I've wanted a c system ball, but I've heard soooo many differing reviews, I'm kind of glad I've not gotten one now.
~Scott
"Celebrate we will, cuz life is short but sweet for certain"
Post by: toomanytenpins on April 05, 2011, 07:31:45 AM
When I first thru my max I thought I had finally found the ball I was loking for for the tougher shots. I had to move 15 boards left of where i was playing with my other stuff just to keep the ball right of the head pin,I may have thrown a half a game with it. Since then I have not been able to get it to wrinkle on any shot. It lost all the recovery I saw when I first thru it. I bathed it and it is still the exact same nothing. If I had never seen its potential I never would Have believed it, I have never had a ball lose this much this fast.
my style, the art of bowling without bowling
Post by: JJ on April 05, 2011, 11:12:26 AM
My Alpha Max has been very weak from the get go. Bowling This Month rated it the same as the Hammer Taboo. It is not near as strong as my Taboo. I drilled the Alpha 3 1/2 from my PAP and stacked to be more aggressive. I have to move my stance and my target 4 boards to the right to get it to react at all. It has a consistent roll but it sure isn't any where near as strong as I thought is was suppose to be. I have to start it in the drier boards to get it to react at all. My Revolver covers as many boards as my Alpha does. Our house uses Brunswick control oil and is more oily than any house in the area.
JJ
Post by: jls on April 05, 2011, 03:03:29 PM
I agree, to me the Alpha Max is not that great on heavy oil patterns...However if used with
their ruff buff polish on more of a medium pattern, the ball works great...
I would sand it to either a 1000 pad or a 2000 pad finish, depending on your ball speed, and then hit
it with ruff buff...
jls
Post by: BackToBasics on April 06, 2011, 06:27:45 AM
I would have to strongly disagree with both of you. Firstly, out of the box the Alpha is fairly strong but I would say that it would be useful on medium-heavy. However, since it has one of the new "super" covers, hitting it with 1000 makes it one of the most aggressive balls out. I've hit some fairly oil conditions with the Alpha and it handle it with no problem. I will admit that the cover really needs to be refreshed pretty frequently.
Post by: jls on April 06, 2011, 08:24:26 AM
Sir, you certainly are entitled to your opinion...My was based comparing the Alpha Max to other
heavy oil balls...Like the Nano, the Mission 250K, the Taboo and the World Beater..
To me these balls all performed stronger in heavier oil conditions than the Alpha Max did..
However once polished with Ruff Buff the Alpha Max was super on more of a med - med heavy
shot...And one could get deeper into the nite and still use the alpha Max..
I would also put both the Marvel and the Theory stronger.
I find the Alpha to be a great ball, but not a monster snow ploy on heavy oil...
jls
Post by: frike300 on April 06, 2011, 11:21:34 AM
I know there have been a bunch of replies to this topic but I will echo some of them. The Alpha Max is a generation 4 super cover and is very aggresive. I found with my 3.5's which are gen 2 I needed to bring the ball back to box every 24 games, or it lost hook. Best way to do it is on a haus for about 45 sec to 1 min per grade. Remember if balls don't soak up oil, they won't hook so you have to bring it back every so often.
Mike Freundel
Brunswick Regional Staff
Post by: duvallite on April 06, 2011, 12:16:43 PM
From previous posts, I know you have had a whole lot of different balls that you feel never lived up to their hype, either being duds for you or dieing quickly. Since you've tried so many different ones, can you list the ones that you feel worked as advertised on their recommended lane conditions? I'm just curious.
Post by: DON DRAPER on April 06, 2011, 05:58:07 PM
Post by: Andyman3333 on April 06, 2011, 05:59:05 PM
In general. I think any ball whether brunswick, storm, ebonite or any other brand loses bite after so many games. I'm a fan of balls only after I get some significant games on them and get some oil absorbed into the track. I prefer a more mellow overall reaction and tend to think (not necessarily right) that balls with a few games on them work better for me. The fresh out of the box reaction on any ball I've had has lasted no more than 6-9 games. Even for Nationals at the end of April, I'll clean all my gear this week or next and make sure I get 6 -9 games on all of them before heading to Reno.
PROFILE
340-370 revs
18 mph
230 book on THS
200 book on PBA
340-370 revs
18 mph
230 book on THS
200 book on PBA
In the bag: C-System Alpha Max, 3.5, 2.5, Wicked Siege, Evil Siege, Damage, Slingshot, Avalanche Slide, & my trusty Swarm.
Post by: toomanytenpins on April 17, 2011, 03:05:14 PM
Ok,I did the hot water,I use cleaner after every time I bowl,and I even picked up a 2000 abrillon pad 2 keep from using the green scratch pad,but,as of yet,the alpha max has lost at least 60 percent of the hook and recovery it had,and is really ,after less than 10 games,is about to be out of the bag all together. I have never seen a non particle ball die this quickly. This ball,in reaction,is no better than my rising star on anything that I play on. It Is on my list of biggest disapointing. Its not even as strong as my polished taboo which is my drier lane ball. The problem I have though is that it was sooooo strong the first time i threw it I cant believe it got so weak so fast
my style, the art of bowling without bowling
Post by: UpstateProShopChris on April 17, 2011, 08:42:30 PM
Try scuffing the ball with more grit than you have previously used before. I would try a 360 and then an new 500 Siaair pad. You can then scuff with a lighter grit if you wish for a little more length and less traction. Ra and Rs values are a big part of what makes a ball hook according to the USBC ball motion study and grittier sanding media help create more traction by increasing these values. Higher performance oilier lane balls tend to be cut with very dull pads when first leaving the factory and then are very lightly finished with the final sanding grit. The Alphamax is no different from other high performance balls in this regard. The heavier grit pad is likely to give you the move you are looking for out of the box performance.
Chris Garrett
Upstate Pro Shop
Greenville, SC 864-569-0878
Upstateproshop@charter.net
PBA Member
Brunswick Regional Staff
Vise Regional Staff
The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation.
Post by: Dewey24 on April 18, 2011, 04:09:05 PM
Post by: Sunshine n Lollipops on April 18, 2011, 05:14:32 PM
Just another THB who buys the next hook monster in a box and doesn't use it for what it's intended. Throws it on a THS into the dry, it burns to a cinder, then hits like a feather pillow.
Turn that frown upside down!
Post by: toomanytenpins on April 19, 2011, 10:55:53 AM
First off,let me be totally honest with you all and myself,I suck,I wouldnt know heavy oil from a sandbox. I wouldnt know a good ball from a bad one . 1 because I throw like a bumb.2because I can never get a read on a lane to know what ball to use,and 3,because I have a lousy mental state. Not that I am crazy.just that as far as being a competitor my mind is weak and therefore when it comes to competing,I suck.
Now as for balls I have liked,odyssey and the original epic,rising star is decent,I like the new omg. Liking them though is really misrespresented with me because I am sure I am using them at the wrong time for the wrong reason. I can practice with anything and look good. I shot 299 with my taboo,but it was on a 3rd shift shot after I had shot 5 games on the pair,I proceeded to shoot 450,series,in the same house 5 days later,the taboo,nor anything else,would wrinkle. I have no clue. Boredom and intrigue keep me posting to this site.
And now about the max. Imho,not forgoeing what I just said is a oil ball,no oil no hook,no hook go to weaker ball,i.e rising star. Last night we had a bit moreoil on the lanes and I had a pretty squirly look. I picked up the max not expecting much and I didnt have enough lane. the backend off the transition was sick,I couldnt control it. The flip was as hard as it was when i first threw it. Yes it was flaring,yes there was a substantial amount of oil residue on the ball. So I dont know cause I suck. Side bar,the team we bowled threw the first 18 of 20 strikes and the lowest handicapp was 30 pins,highest was 80. one of their bowlers used a vg all three games to shoot 663 and he had 40 pins a game. I never found anything concrete throwing everything in my bag. Like I said I have no clue,I suck. Alpha max good ball,good for what its supposed to be used on ,me,suck.
my style, the art of bowling without bowling
Post by: toomanytenpins on April 19, 2011, 10:56:14 AM
First off,let me be totally honest with you all and myself,I suck,I wouldnt know heavy oil from a sandbox. I wouldnt know a good ball from a bad one . 1 because I throw like a bumb.2because I can never get a read on a lane to know what ball to use,and 3,because I have a lousy mental state. Not that I am crazy.just that as far as being a competitor my mind is weak and therefore when it comes to competing,I suck.
Now as for balls I have liked,odyssey and the original epic,rising star is decent,I like the new omg. Liking them though is really misrespresented with me because I am sure I am using them at the wrong time for the wrong reason. I can practice with anything and look good. I shot 299 with my taboo,but it was on a 3rd shift shot after I had shot 5 games on the pair,I proceeded to shoot 450,series,in the same house 5 days later,the taboo,nor anything else,would wrinkle. I have no clue. Boredom and intrigue keep me posting to this site.
And now about the max. Imho,not forgoeing what I just said is a oil ball,no oil no hook,no hook go to weaker ball,i.e rising star. Last night we had a bit moreoil on the lanes and I had a pretty squirly look. I picked up the max not expecting much and I didnt have enough lane. the backend off the transition was sick,I couldnt control it. The flip was as hard as it was when i first threw it. Yes it was flaring,yes there was a substantial amount of oil residue on the ball. So I dont know cause I suck. Side bar,the team we bowled threw the first 18 of 20 strikes and the lowest handicapp was 30 pins,highest was 80. one of their bowlers used a vg all three games to shoot 663 and he had 40 pins a game. I never found anything concrete throwing everything in my bag. Like I said I have no clue,I suck. Alpha max good ball,good for what its supposed to be used on ,me,suck.
my style, the art of bowling without bowling
Post by: AlBundy33 on April 19, 2011, 11:22:10 AM
Translator please?
"Pretty women make us buy beer, ugly women make us drink beer"
Post by: sport300 on April 19, 2011, 11:29:44 AM
i probably have 24-27 games on mine, i have not noticed any fallout in performance. after every session i clean it.
after 6-9 games i'll freshen up the surface with abralon. no problems with this piece, & i really like this ball.