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Author Topic: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion  (Read 9398 times)

BrunsNick

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Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« on: May 10, 2005, 08:05:48 AM »
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wOTE4Mjk2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg

Original Classic Zone core w/ Activator coverstock. This batch cured too fast, so its characteristics are SIMILAR to that of a Punisher.

Just how hard are they?

Original Zone Classic tested at 76-77 on the durometer.

Red Pin Zone Classic tested at 79-80 on the durometer.

So what does that mean?

The Red Pin Zone Classic will clear the fronts a lot easier when the lanes tend to break down later in the shift. Bowlers like myself who absolutely love the Original will now have a ball that rolls IDENTICAL but is milder.

According to BrunsRicH, this ball will be slightly more aggressive than the Punisher.
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
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TwistDaWrist

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2005, 08:02:06 PM »
How do you know for sure pins are put in place before pouring the cover?  Could it possibly be that the pins are poured after the cover cures?  That possibly they realized there was a problem after it cured and to not get it confused with the green pin ZC, they poured the pin red?  Yeah, maybe someone from Brunswick could clear this up.  I don't think it matters but maybe Rich can clear this up.  And if this was meant to be, then why would they not keep making them.  Why would there only be a certain amount and they just blew them out at a lower price?  Sometimes mistakes are good.  Sounds like a decent ball at decent price.  Looks like everyone benefits.  Brunswick doesn't have to scrap and lose all their costs and the bowler gets a different piece at a good price.

TwistDaWrist

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2005, 08:16:28 PM »
Lefty,

How do you know for sure?  You been to the plant?  

I'd really like for one of the B guys to confirm this one way or the other.

laufaye

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2005, 11:08:19 PM »
quote:
and on another note, how many balls are we talking here? more then 500?


Forgot where I heard it, but it was about 2000 or 3000 of them.  Again not sure.
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Laufaye

laufaye

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2005, 11:19:35 PM »
BrunsRich,

I dont care what you say, I am buying one.
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Laufaye

Mike Austin

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2005, 01:05:14 AM »
I don't care what color the pin is, where do I get one of these red pin editions?????

BTW, drilled up my first Zone Classic today.  Pin over the fingers on the span line, MB right of the thumb hole, no extra hole.  Man, does that ball roll sweeeeeett!  I left a flush 4-6 with it in the 10th frame of the last game or I shoot 700+ first 3 games out of the box!!!

Think I might shine this ball, unless I can get a Red pin edition.


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recognize_talent

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2005, 11:42:22 AM »
brunsrich,

that was very informative and thank you for setting the world straight and no im not being sarcastic. but this does sound even still a little bit of an awkward situation as if there is still some mythical reason for doing this, outside of just creating a lesser ball reaction. b/c unless im wrong would you all just make it a new release? for instance just like the zone hi and low? i mean to me as a business major, that would seem more profitable. and im not saying that bruns made a blem, but the two just dont match up.

few last notes: i am a bruns ball user
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Nails

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2005, 02:35:11 PM »
Thanks for the answers to the other questions.

quote:
Again the reasons are irrelevant as to why they are available, as no matter the answer, there will always be the few nay-sayers or conspiracist.



But this didn't really answer anything.  Why are they available?  Were they originally intended for the international market?  Lots of people seek these balls out because they are a little different.  Was it an unofficial "tour edition"?  Again, many people seek these out.  Or was it a mistake in the curing process?  It might turn out to be a great ball, but some of us are just curious as to it's origin.  People on this forums are far more educated about new releases.  Many of people buy balls off the net with little research and might end up with a ball they're not happy about because they aren't aware that there's a pretty good difference between the two Classic Zones.

Also why does everything have to turn into a Brunswick loving vs. hater controversy?  If it's not a blem/mistake, all you had to do was come out and say that the ball was made for reasons xyz.  No one came out and said Brunswick turned out junk on a regular basis.  An odd circumstance came about and your customers have some valid questions.
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DanH78

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2005, 02:55:31 PM »
Nails, (and really this is directed to everyone demanding answers) I'm not trying to sound rude in my answer but I know it might come off that way, so I'll apologize in advance.

What gives you the right to know all the answers?  Any company, especially the bigger ones like Brunswick (remember they make everything from bowling balls to boats) have internal processes and results that are not meant for the public to know about.  By telling you why this ball ended up the way they did they could be losing some aspect of their competive advantage.  Don't forget, Brunwick isn't the only company that has R&D/Product specialists frequent this board.  They need to keep certain things internal because making them known to the public could hurt them later on.  There is a reason why corporations have things like non-disclosure and non-competitive agreements with their employees.  There's a good chance that only a handful of people at Brunswick even know the definitive answer.  

It doesn't matter why or how these balls came into the market, because if Brunswick says it was a mistake, somebody is gonna say they did it on purpose, if they say it was planned, somebody else is gonna say it was an accident and now it's a case of CYA by the marketing department.
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Nails

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2005, 03:15:23 PM »
I would have taken his word if he said it was a planned release from the beginning, but I'd be a little hesitant to believe it now.  You usually hear about new releases on the manufacturers websites, from insider information, or from sites such as this.  This ball just kind of showed up.  Why would someone make two balls with the same name, and with such drastic reaction differences, and not make it obvious from the start to avoid confusion?

Much as with Storm's "pro pin's" which receive some negative feedback, the red pin might deserve the same treatment.  Ebonites's TPC Shooter and/or Shooter XL had some coverstock problems that lead to many people being confused about the reaction they were getting.  Dynothane had some recent problems.  Why should Brunswick get a free ride?  If there is/was a problem, the customers that pay their bills deserve some answers.  No one will stop buying their products because of an isolated problem.  All I'm looking for is a little truth.  (waiting for corny movie line.....)

I will say I like the tone of the answers from some of the other manufacturers representatives, but that's a separate issue.
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Nails

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2005, 03:58:42 PM »
quote:
who wants the low down?  here from a reputable source at brunswick is th light on the cover stock, sort of.  I am not gonna put the whole email here but, this is the very first line from it

   This is a cover stock we have never used ....It is part Activator
.......and part Reactive but much Tammer ................


There you have it, as I stated this was done on purpose to fill a need created by demand for a lighter side of med oil ball, IMHO this is an attempt to fill the void supposedly that was filled by the punisher and groove series balls, all of which were too strong off the dry, They have the Dry/R for dry, and the slay/r is or has been discontinued, SO what is a company to do?  I know develope a ball, that will do what it is advertised to do.  

And so everyone knows I have all the respect in the world for Big B they make the best covers period for bowling and the equipment is top notch, had people asked the right people, the answers are there, I see a lot of conclusions were drawn based upon hearsay
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Nothing left to discuss



You just made my point.  The PG Dry, like the Messenger Titanium low RG, is a perfect example of how a new ball with a similar name, but with a different reaction, is marketed.  You don't just toss it out there and hope people order the right pin color.  If the red pin CZ was introduced in a similar manner, none of this would be happening.
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BrunsBob

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2005, 08:47:06 PM »
Correct....Activator is Reactive. The Activator in the "red pin" Classics didn't quite have the right formulation. The original pins were drilled out and replaced with red pins to differentiate between the normal Classics and the "harder" ones. These were not intended as overseas balls. We sold them at an extreme discount because of the difference, thus, not intentional by all means. If you knew the profit margins, or lack there of, you would understand that we would never produce a ball intentionally that would have us selling them so low, that's just business sense. As with the Blazings that came out wrong, there is always the possibility of "not so perfect" batches. If these "blems" still have a use, then why not sell them rather than dump them in the trash. There is no deception with any part of this, just some balls for sale that have a performance characteristic that some bowlers will benefit from. No smoke and mirrors needed, it is what it is, a bowling ball with a specific reaction, just not the one it was originally intended to have. They just now showed up because we chose not to confuse the market by having them released at the same time as the "proper" ones.

That's pretty much it guys and gals. No need for conspiracy theories, animocity, or feather ruffling, just a decent bowling ball at a very decent price.


Sincerely,

  RoB LAW
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Nails

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2005, 12:25:03 AM »
quote:
Correct....Activator is Reactive. The Activator in the "red pin" Classics didn't quite have the right formulation. The original pins were drilled out and replaced with red pins to differentiate between the normal Classics and the "harder" ones. These were not intended as overseas balls. We sold them at an extreme discount because of the difference, thus, not intentional by all means. If you knew the profit margins, or lack there of, you would understand that we would never produce a ball intentionally that would have us selling them so low, that's just business sense. As with the Blazings that came out wrong, there is always the possibility of "not so perfect" batches. If these "blems" still have a use, then why not sell them rather than dump them in the trash. There is no deception with any part of this, just some balls for sale that have a performance characteristic that some bowlers will benefit from. No smoke and mirrors needed, it is what it is, a bowling ball with a specific reaction, just not the one it was originally intended to have. They just now showed up because we chose not to confuse the market by having them released at the same time as the "proper" ones.

That's pretty much it guys and gals. No need for conspiracy theories, animocity, or feather ruffling, just a decent bowling ball at a very decent price.


Sincerely,

  RoB LAW
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If ya ain't throwin' Brunswick.....Ya ain't maximizin' your abilities.  Get ur done with Brunswick !!!


Thank you for the very honest answer Robert.  Nothing wrong with trying to recoup expenses.  I'm glad to finally know what the ball is.  IMO, it would have been better to release them at the same time, so the two different reactions would have been known to everyone up front.  Something like an XL (eXtra Length) or a "Dry" added to the name would be more descriptive instead of the pin color change, but I know marketing is a tough decision.
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kid51178

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2005, 01:02:27 AM »
Does anyone here remember the Original Danger Zone line. There was the Original which had a red pin, there was one known as the tour edition which had a green pin it went long and snap a little harded, and then there was the tour edition 2 which had a orange pin, it was urethane. All the labels where the same all the marking was the same, and this was before the DZ2 or the Red Alerts, the only difference in those 3 balls were the pin. Brunswick made the green and orange pin in a limited number. This sound like what they are doing with the Classic Zone, so if you need a ball with more length for those sport shots get one.
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Tim

You guys always complicate everything.

BrunsBob

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #29 on: May 15, 2005, 08:37:28 AM »
Well Kid, like I said, it was not intentional, but you're right, it is a good
addition to the Brunswick arsenal. Those days when Brunswick released all the different colored pins on the Danger was a fiasco.  I remember I was bowling on tour and was still part owner of a shop back home and we couldn't get some of them for the shop, but people were constantly asking what the difference was and why couldn't they get them.  It was hard to find distributors that carried all of them, so the rumors started that they were only for the tour. Well, I think Brunswick learned their lesson on that deal and this is one of the reasons we didn't want to release both of the Classics at the same time. And like I said, it was not intentional, so it wasn't like we were going to make more to keep up with demand. Besides, we had a few other balls in our line that we hoped would fill that performance gap, so we didn't need to actually make a ball that performed like that, it just came out that way.  Heck, I'm not even sure if we could of duplicated the mistake. Anyway, the bowlers benefitted by being able to get this ball for such a good price.  We've drilled a couple of them back home and they look really good for med/dry lanes. Once the word gets out around here, all 24 that we got will be gone fairly quick.

RoB LAW
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a_ak57

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Re: Classic Zone RED PIN -- Clearing up confusion
« Reply #30 on: May 15, 2005, 08:48:15 AM »
Man, if I wasn't stopping bowling for the summer, I'd pick up one of these faster than you can say "vietnamese garden cat".......Especially since I can get one for 66 bucks at bowling.com (with a coupon I got in an email).........

Aarrgh, must resist.....Not bowling for summmer.......But so...CHEAP.......and INCREDIBLY useful for those crap med-light oiled junior leagues.....
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