Post by: BrunsNick on May 10, 2005, 08:05:48 AM
Original Classic Zone core w/ Activator coverstock. This batch cured too fast, so its characteristics are SIMILAR to that of a Punisher.
Just how hard are they?
Original Zone Classic tested at 76-77 on the durometer.
Red Pin Zone Classic tested at 79-80 on the durometer.
So what does that mean?
The Red Pin Zone Classic will clear the fronts a lot easier when the lanes tend to break down later in the shift. Bowlers like myself who absolutely love the Original will now have a ball that rolls IDENTICAL but is milder.
According to BrunsRicH, this ball will be slightly more aggressive than the Punisher.
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-05
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Post by: Juggernaut on May 10, 2005, 04:19:05 PM
If they were just regular zc's that cured too fast, how did they end up with red pins?
Or was this something that was done on purpose ( The harder shell ) with a red pin to mark them?
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Brunswick will soon own the world.
You must face it.
There is no escape.
Post by: Moe on May 11, 2005, 12:29:09 AM
Im guessing the red pin was used to identify them, so you dont have angry customers that say "this ball sucks, it doesnt hook for crap!" Sounds pretty nice for a tourney condition where the track area is burnt up.
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AIM = y2moe99
Post by: Next Level PS on May 11, 2005, 02:20:43 AM
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com
Post by: BrunsNick on May 11, 2005, 02:29:07 AM
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-05
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Post by: Nails on May 11, 2005, 01:26:09 PM
quote:quote:
pins are put in before pouring if not mistaken, the pin is used to hold the ball, why did these get red pins to begin with (was bruswick planning on an experiment?) anyone know for sure. Been so many different stories going around what is one to believe? such as red piin = zc core with punisher cover, zc core with cured too fast cover, zc with a variation of powerboost cover. Please tell me Big B is not gonna go back and whore up the market with a bunch of tour edition balls
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TriggermanOfficial member Fellowship of the Saws
Captain of the Bomb Squad
Chicks Dig guys who throw the Diamondswe fight Dirty.
Nothing left to discuss
They have red pins because they were planning on making them to send overseas.
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Formerly Columbia4Life aka T4L
They purposedly made them for overseas, then they just hapened to get a cover that didn't cure correctly. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Call a blem a blem. Every manufacturer makes a mistake once in a while. BTW, what's your source for this information?
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: BrunsNick on May 11, 2005, 01:55:25 PM
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-05
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Post by: BrunsNick on May 11, 2005, 03:36:26 PM
quote:
They purposedly made them for overseas, then they just hapened to get a cover that didn't cure correctly. Riiiiiiiiiiiight. Call a blem a blem. Every manufacturer makes a mistake once in a while. BTW, what's your source for this information?
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Telling it like it is.
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wOTIwMTcyNnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
Here is the information sheet for the Red Pin, and next time you choose to criticize, use spell checker.
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-05
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Post by: Nails on May 11, 2005, 04:01:11 PM
What did that link prove? It didn't say red pin, it doesn't give any info about a different cover than the green pin, doesn't say anything about being made/marketed for overseas.... The casual customer only knows the name Zone Classic. They shouldn't have to that two balls with the same name might have a hook potential of 75 vs. 115 or a length of 165 compared to 110.
Weren't the Blazing Inferno's recalled or quickly discontinued because the cover wasn't what they intended? I know people got some of the hard cover and liked them, but that's irrelevant It's still poor quality control. Apparently the same problem popped up again. Again, many people might be happy with the release, but so what? Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: BrunsNick on May 11, 2005, 04:32:25 PM
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wOTIwMjM2NnM0MTNkZmQzMXk1NDE%3D.jpg
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-05
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Post by: Nails on May 11, 2005, 04:49:48 PM
Still, I don't believe it was Brunswick's intention to make that exact ball. If it was, they would have released both at the same time so that everyone would be aware that there was two similar releases, kind of like the X Zone high and low. Lots of companies use the same core with a new coverstock or vice versa. There's too many balls being released within some lines such as the Inferno's and X-Factors to take a chance that a customer might but a ball other than than what was intended. If they wanted to make a less aggressive Classic Zone, they would have given it another name to avoid confusion.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: RSalas on May 11, 2005, 05:16:30 PM
quote:
Weren't the Blazing Inferno's recalled or quickly discontinued because the cover wasn't what they intended?
The difference is that the Blazing Infernos, IIRC, all had the same pin color. At least with the Zone Classic, it's easy to tell the two "models" apart.
quote:
Still, I don't believe it was Brunswick's intention to make that exact ball. If it was, they would have released both at the same time so that everyone would be aware that there was two similar releases, kind of like the X Zone high and low.
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Maybe they thought they saw a hole in their asymmetric line for the touring players, hence the smaller run of balls with the weaker cover. That would be *my* guess, anyway.
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Better to be a big fish in a small pond than not to be a big fish at all.
Horrid in Doubles, torrid in Singles...
...that's The Curse of Dusty.
Post by: laufaye on May 11, 2005, 05:42:54 PM
quote:
coudlnt they have drilled the green pin out and put in a red one?
Doubt it
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Laufaye
Post by: RSalas on May 11, 2005, 05:56:09 PM
quote:
coudlnt they have drilled the green pin out and put in a red one?
Well, there's always a dab of red paint...
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Better to be a big fish in a small pond than not to be a big fish at all.
Horrid in Doubles, torrid in Singles...
...that's The Curse of Dusty.
Post by: BrunsNick on May 11, 2005, 06:22:11 PM
quote:quote:
coudlnt they have drilled the green pin out and put in a red one?
Well, there's always a dab of red paint...
*starts rubbing the pin furiously with acetone*
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-05
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Post by: TwistDaWrist on May 11, 2005, 08:02:06 PM
Post by: TwistDaWrist on May 11, 2005, 08:16:28 PM
How do you know for sure? You been to the plant?
I'd really like for one of the B guys to confirm this one way or the other.
Post by: laufaye on May 11, 2005, 11:08:19 PM
quote:
and on another note, how many balls are we talking here? more then 500?
Forgot where I heard it, but it was about 2000 or 3000 of them. Again not sure.
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Laufaye
Post by: laufaye on May 11, 2005, 11:19:35 PM
I dont care what you say, I am buying one.
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Laufaye
Post by: Mike Austin on May 12, 2005, 01:05:14 AM
BTW, drilled up my first Zone Classic today. Pin over the fingers on the span line, MB right of the thumb hole, no extra hole. Man, does that ball roll sweeeeeett! I left a flush 4-6 with it in the 10th frame of the last game or I shoot 700+ first 3 games out of the box!!!
Think I might shine this ball, unless I can get a Red pin edition.
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Mike Austin's Precision Pro Shop
Houston, TX
Drilling and Tech Advice BirdDogbowling.com
Check out bowlingballauctions.com !!!
A bowling alternative to Ebay, coming very soon !!!
Driller to many "Stars" and Tony Melendez too!
Post by: recognize_talent on May 12, 2005, 11:42:22 AM
that was very informative and thank you for setting the world straight and no im not being sarcastic. but this does sound even still a little bit of an awkward situation as if there is still some mythical reason for doing this, outside of just creating a lesser ball reaction. b/c unless im wrong would you all just make it a new release? for instance just like the zone hi and low? i mean to me as a business major, that would seem more profitable. and im not saying that bruns made a blem, but the two just dont match up.
few last notes: i am a bruns ball user
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"Strikes show them you know the game. Spares show them you can play the game."
When you bowl a 300, then you have a little sense of what it is like to be Jesus Christ.
A wise man knows when he is beat, it's time you RECOGNIZE Talent!!!
Post by: Nails on May 12, 2005, 02:35:11 PM
quote:
Again the reasons are irrelevant as to why they are available, as no matter the answer, there will always be the few nay-sayers or conspiracist.
But this didn't really answer anything. Why are they available? Were they originally intended for the international market? Lots of people seek these balls out because they are a little different. Was it an unofficial "tour edition"? Again, many people seek these out. Or was it a mistake in the curing process? It might turn out to be a great ball, but some of us are just curious as to it's origin. People on this forums are far more educated about new releases. Many of people buy balls off the net with little research and might end up with a ball they're not happy about because they aren't aware that there's a pretty good difference between the two Classic Zones.
Also why does everything have to turn into a Brunswick loving vs. hater controversy? If it's not a blem/mistake, all you had to do was come out and say that the ball was made for reasons xyz. No one came out and said Brunswick turned out junk on a regular basis. An odd circumstance came about and your customers have some valid questions.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: DanH78 on May 12, 2005, 02:55:31 PM
What gives you the right to know all the answers? Any company, especially the bigger ones like Brunswick (remember they make everything from bowling balls to boats) have internal processes and results that are not meant for the public to know about. By telling you why this ball ended up the way they did they could be losing some aspect of their competive advantage. Don't forget, Brunwick isn't the only company that has R&D/Product specialists frequent this board. They need to keep certain things internal because making them known to the public could hurt them later on. There is a reason why corporations have things like non-disclosure and non-competitive agreements with their employees. There's a good chance that only a handful of people at Brunswick even know the definitive answer.
It doesn't matter why or how these balls came into the market, because if Brunswick says it was a mistake, somebody is gonna say they did it on purpose, if they say it was planned, somebody else is gonna say it was an accident and now it's a case of CYA by the marketing department.
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The clock on the wall says 3 O'Clock...last call...for Alcohol!
"I love a martini -- but two at the most. Three I’m under the table; Four, I’m under the host." Dorothy Parker
Post by: Nails on May 12, 2005, 03:15:23 PM
Much as with Storm's "pro pin's" which receive some negative feedback, the red pin might deserve the same treatment. Ebonites's TPC Shooter and/or Shooter XL had some coverstock problems that lead to many people being confused about the reaction they were getting. Dynothane had some recent problems. Why should Brunswick get a free ride? If there is/was a problem, the customers that pay their bills deserve some answers. No one will stop buying their products because of an isolated problem. All I'm looking for is a little truth. (waiting for corny movie line.....)
I will say I like the tone of the answers from some of the other manufacturers representatives, but that's a separate issue.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: Nails on May 12, 2005, 03:58:42 PM
quote:
who wants the low down? here from a reputable source at brunswick is th light on the cover stock, sort of. I am not gonna put the whole email here but, this is the very first line from it
This is a cover stock we have never used ....It is part Activator
.......and part Reactive but much Tammer ................
There you have it, as I stated this was done on purpose to fill a need created by demand for a lighter side of med oil ball, IMHO this is an attempt to fill the void supposedly that was filled by the punisher and groove series balls, all of which were too strong off the dry, They have the Dry/R for dry, and the slay/r is or has been discontinued, SO what is a company to do? I know develope a ball, that will do what it is advertised to do.
And so everyone knows I have all the respect in the world for Big B they make the best covers period for bowling and the equipment is top notch, had people asked the right people, the answers are there, I see a lot of conclusions were drawn based upon hearsay
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Triggerman
Captain of the Bomb Squad
Chicks Dig guys who throw the Diamonds
Nothing left to discuss
You just made my point. The PG Dry, like the Messenger Titanium low RG, is a perfect example of how a new ball with a similar name, but with a different reaction, is marketed. You don't just toss it out there and hope people order the right pin color. If the red pin CZ was introduced in a similar manner, none of this would be happening.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: BrunsBob on May 12, 2005, 08:47:06 PM
That's pretty much it guys and gals. No need for conspiracy theories, animocity, or feather ruffling, just a decent bowling ball at a very decent price.
Sincerely,
RoB LAW
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If ya ain't throwin' Brunswick.....Ya ain't maximizin' your abilities. Get ur done with Brunswick !!!
Post by: Nails on May 15, 2005, 12:25:03 AM
quote:
Correct....Activator is Reactive. The Activator in the "red pin" Classics didn't quite have the right formulation. The original pins were drilled out and replaced with red pins to differentiate between the normal Classics and the "harder" ones. These were not intended as overseas balls. We sold them at an extreme discount because of the difference, thus, not intentional by all means. If you knew the profit margins, or lack there of, you would understand that we would never produce a ball intentionally that would have us selling them so low, that's just business sense. As with the Blazings that came out wrong, there is always the possibility of "not so perfect" batches. If these "blems" still have a use, then why not sell them rather than dump them in the trash. There is no deception with any part of this, just some balls for sale that have a performance characteristic that some bowlers will benefit from. No smoke and mirrors needed, it is what it is, a bowling ball with a specific reaction, just not the one it was originally intended to have. They just now showed up because we chose not to confuse the market by having them released at the same time as the "proper" ones.
That's pretty much it guys and gals. No need for conspiracy theories, animocity, or feather ruffling, just a decent bowling ball at a very decent price.
Sincerely,
RoB LAW
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If ya ain't throwin' Brunswick.....Ya ain't maximizin' your abilities. Get ur done with Brunswick !!!
Thank you for the very honest answer Robert. Nothing wrong with trying to recoup expenses. I'm glad to finally know what the ball is. IMO, it would have been better to release them at the same time, so the two different reactions would have been known to everyone up front. Something like an XL (eXtra Length) or a "Dry" added to the name would be more descriptive instead of the pin color change, but I know marketing is a tough decision.
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Telling it like it is.
Post by: kid51178 on May 15, 2005, 01:02:27 AM
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Tim
You guys always complicate everything.
Post by: BrunsBob on May 15, 2005, 08:37:28 AM
addition to the Brunswick arsenal. Those days when Brunswick released all the different colored pins on the Danger was a fiasco. I remember I was bowling on tour and was still part owner of a shop back home and we couldn't get some of them for the shop, but people were constantly asking what the difference was and why couldn't they get them. It was hard to find distributors that carried all of them, so the rumors started that they were only for the tour. Well, I think Brunswick learned their lesson on that deal and this is one of the reasons we didn't want to release both of the Classics at the same time. And like I said, it was not intentional, so it wasn't like we were going to make more to keep up with demand. Besides, we had a few other balls in our line that we hoped would fill that performance gap, so we didn't need to actually make a ball that performed like that, it just came out that way. Heck, I'm not even sure if we could of duplicated the mistake. Anyway, the bowlers benefitted by being able to get this ball for such a good price. We've drilled a couple of them back home and they look really good for med/dry lanes. Once the word gets out around here, all 24 that we got will be gone fairly quick.
RoB LAW
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If ya ain't throwin' Brunswick.....Ya ain't maximizin' your abilities. Get ur done with Brunswick !!!
Post by: a_ak57 on May 15, 2005, 08:48:15 AM
Aarrgh, must resist.....Not bowling for summmer.......But so...CHEAP.......and INCREDIBLY useful for those crap med-light oiled junior leagues.....
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- Andy
Brunswick...........'nuff said.
Post by: a_ak57 on May 15, 2005, 09:01:40 AM
I'm not quitting permanently, just the summer. I'm burnt out, bowling isn't fun anymore. Time off will make me want to bowl again.
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- Andy
Brunswick...........'nuff said.
Post by: laner7pin on May 15, 2005, 09:31:35 AM
bowling.com (with free shipping): Packaging fee is $4.95, ball with shipping is $66.99 for a total of $71.94
bowlingball.com: ball is $59.99, assmue shipping is $15 and no packaging fee total is $74.99. If shipping is more and/or a packaging fee is present then that toal goes up.
I did not notice a comment section for bowlingball.com to specify pin/top if available. bowling.com does have this option. I slightly lower price and a better possibility of getting the ball specs desired, I would go with bowling.com.
Laner
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Unoffical Member of "The Nacion" for I tend to still sneak in a Storm ball on occasion.
Post by: laner7pin on May 15, 2005, 01:07:41 PM
Laner
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Unoffical Member of "The Nacion" for I tend to still sneak in a Storm ball on occasion.
Post by: drillbit on May 23, 2005, 12:26:57 AM
. I'll just have to wait and see. This will be my first big B product since the CZ:TE3(I must have paid for that ball a dozen times over in pot game winnings with it). I need something for the med-light conditions, as my RS-1 is a bit too much for most of them. I really like the idea of a strong core/weak(ish) cover combo.drillbit