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Equipment Boards => Brunswick => Topic started by: Stever5000 on December 04, 2007, 12:17:12 PM

Title: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Stever5000 on December 04, 2007, 12:17:12 PM
Got a question that has probably come up before, but I'm asking anyway.  Take that, forum society.

How honestly fair is it to expect a fresh shot for a men's league?  I'm just wondering because it seems pretty fair to me, especially when the other 14/16 teams get a fresh shot.  I don't expect to pay $15 a week and bowl on a pair that has been used by a bunch of kids using plastic balls and house balls after the lanes had been ran.

Anyone else know what I mean?  I don't want to hear about "good bowlers can adjust" and "it's not like you were the only one who had to bowl on it."  I shot 481 and was third high on the pair.  Our 212 ave. shot 522 and one of their bowlers had 497 (granted he only averaged 177.)  I wasn't even close on the high game pot and didn't go anywhere on brackets, which is what I really rely on every week for spending money.

Not trying to whine about this, but I really don't see this being too fair.  What do you think?
--------------------
quote:
go find a jesus forum if you wanna complain about right and wrong. shove your religious beliefs up your keister and i hereby revoke your man card.
Tee hee!
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: JOE FALCO on December 04, 2007, 08:21:52 PM
AGREE 100% .. if on a 2nd shift league .. house should book start time with enough time to RE-OIL!

ON EDIT: House should HOLD the League lanes once they are oiled for the LEAGUE and NOT ALLOW open bowling on them from time oiled till league starts!

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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O

Edited on 12/4/2007 9:32 PM
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: themachine300 on December 04, 2007, 09:05:50 PM
I hate to bear the bad news, but i work at our local bowling alley and the fact is we don't oil the lanes for you to score we oil them to protect them.  I heard somewhere if bowling lanes weren't oiled they would only last 100 games or so. And second we are a business and we aren't going to turn away paying customers just because of a league behind them.  If they can finish in time we put them out there, if not we cut them off and take them off there.
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!

Edited on 12/4/2007 10:06 PM
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Urethane Game on December 04, 2007, 09:11:36 PM
quote:
I hate to bear the bad news, but i work at our local bowling alley and the fact is we don't oil the lanes for you to score we oil them to protect them.


Well said but this is the part that had me rolling on the floor...

quote:
I wasn't even close on the high game pot and didn't go anywhere on brackets, which is what I really rely on every week for spending money.


Someone won the high game pot though, right?    You just need the lanes easy to have a chance right?  You are the personification of what is wrong with the game today.
--------------------
got revs? (http://"http://www.gotrevs.com")

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Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Nails on December 04, 2007, 09:35:38 PM
It's the luck of the draw.  The main point is to out bowl the other team which was bowling on the same pair.  I'm sure on some other nights, you had the good lanes while others had the chopped up ones.  League contract might stipulate fresh oil, but I'm not sure how common it is.  I know you didnt want to hear it, but even with a ton of carry down, I expect to hit 550-600 with a lot of flat 10's and a whole bunch of made spares.  If you're big into brackets, get there early to see if the lanes have been used or wait to enter until after practice to make sure you have a reasonable shot.

Why is this in the Brunswick forum???

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Telling it like it is.

Edited on 12/4/2007 10:35 PM
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: themachine300 on December 04, 2007, 09:40:10 PM
Another thing the 15 dollars that you pay, only 9 or 10 of it goes into lineage.  We just put 4 kids and 1 adult on your lane, hit them for 4 dollars a pair for shoes and 4 dollars a per person a game.  They bowl two games and we just hit them for 50 bucks.  Sorry to the people who got stuck on your pair, but like a said, we are a business.
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: alloutsmith3 on December 04, 2007, 09:46:52 PM
quote:
I hate to bear the bad news, but i work at our local bowling alley and the fact is we don't oil the lanes for you to score we oil them to protect them.  I heard somewhere if bowling lanes weren't oiled they would only last 100 games or so. And second we are a business and we aren't going to turn away paying customers just because of a league behind them.  If they can finish in time we put them out there, if not we cut them off and take them off there.
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!

Edited on 12/4/2007 10:06 PM


I worked at a local center many years ago and this isn't entirely true. Yes the oil protects the lane but in todays environment lanes are not only oiled for protection but also to increase the scoring pace. Otherwise why not just program your machine to oil 1 to 1 for 60ft, thats the best protection you can have. Also if done correctly you can have open play and still put down a fresh shot for leagues.


quote:
Someone won the high game pot though, right?    You just need the lanes easy to have a chance right?  You are the personification of what is wrong with the game today.



I didn't see anywhere in his post were he asked for the shot to be easy, only fair. How would you like going to a tournament were every pair you hit was oiled with a different, tougher condition and all other pairs were oiled with a THS. I would be willing to bet you wouldn't like it.

When bowling in competition the condition should be consistent from pair to pair period. Of course they are going to break down differently depending on who and how they are played but they should start out consistent. What this center is doing is unfair to the people who have to bowl on the lanes that were being used for open play prior to league.
--------------------
Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: alloutsmith3 on December 04, 2007, 09:51:45 PM
quote:
Another thing the 15 dollars that you pay, only 9 or 10 of it goes into lineage.  We just put 4 kids and 1 adult on your lane, hit them for 4 dollars a pair for shoes and 4 dollars a per person a game.  They bowl two games and we just hit them for 50 bucks.  Sorry to the people who got stuck on your pair, but like a said, we are a business.
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!



The league bowler is there week end and week out and these open bowlers might be in 2-3 times per year so now who are you making more money off of. Not to mention the league bowler is more likely to spend more money on food/drinks as well as spend money in your proshop. If the center is run correctly there should be no problem having all the open bowling you can handle as well as having a fresh shot down for league.
--------------------
Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: alloutsmith3 on December 04, 2007, 09:56:04 PM
quote:
It's the luck of the draw.  The main point is to out bowl the other team which was bowling on the same pair.  I'm sure on some other nights, you had the good lanes while others had the chopped up ones.  League contract might stipulate fresh oil, but I'm not sure how common it is.  I know you didnt want to hear it, but even with a ton of carry down, I expect to hit 550-600 with a lot of flat 10's and a whole bunch of made spares.  If you're big into brackets, get there early to see if the lanes have been used or wait to enter until after practice to make sure you have a reasonable shot.

Why is this in the Brunswick forum???

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Telling it like it is.

Edited on 12/4/2007 10:35 PM


This would be true if there weren't brackets and pots involved. Thats were it becomes unfair. Its not always realistic to get to the bowling center early enough to see if there are people bowling open play on your pair. And if his center is anything like mine 550-600 won't get you anywhere in brackets. Bottom line is your center doesn't care if you make money in brackets or pots as long as your check clears for your bowling fees. I'm just glad that my home center takes a different view on things.
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions

Edited on 12/4/2007 10:57 PM
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: themachine300 on December 04, 2007, 10:05:46 PM
quote:
quote:
Another thing the 15 dollars that you pay, only 9 or 10 of it goes into lineage.  We just put 4 kids and 1 adult on your lane, hit them for 4 dollars a pair for shoes and 4 dollars a per person a game.  They bowl two games and we just hit them for 50 bucks.  Sorry to the people who got stuck on your pair, but like a said, we are a business.
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!



The league bowler is there week end and week out and these open bowlers might be in 2-3 times per year so now who are you making more money off of. Not to mention the league bowler is more likely to spend more money on food/drinks as well as spend money in your proshop. If the center is run correctly there should be no problem having all the open bowling you can handle as well as having a fresh shot down for league.
--------------------
Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions


Exactly the open bowlers are aren't there nearly as often as the league bowlers.  So why would anyone turn them away, knowing that theres a good chance they won't come back for awhile.  The league bowler is there every week, he may be pissed at the end of the night, but he will be back
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!

Edited on 12/4/2007 11:10 PM
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: 302efi on December 04, 2007, 10:08:02 PM
quote:
Why is this in the Brunswick forum???


I'm guessing this was a Brunswick house ?

Corprate Brunswick houses always seem to be good with oiling the lanes making due for league bowlers...
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quote:
I will head to my local pro shop. Right after I buy it online.


When faced with a difficult situation, Jesus asks himself, "What would Chuck Norris do?"

Robo-Arm bowlers SUCK...
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: themachine300 on December 04, 2007, 10:09:58 PM
Also, no one in trying to screw with the league's oil.  We aren't trying to get them upset by allowing open play, but we aren't going to turn paying customers away.  Its the luck of the draw, it happens and you have to bowl as well as you can.  Oiling gutter to gutter is just stupid, yes we want the scores to be high.  I know some people who refuse to bowl in certain centers because the shot is harder, we don't want to be that center.
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Baxfran on December 04, 2007, 10:10:36 PM
No China, no ka-ching!
--------------------
Fran Bax

A Member of the Buffalo and New York State Bowling Association Halls of Fame

PS: Wanna Quit Smoking?  
In New York State - Call 1-866-NYQUITS (1-866-697-8487)
Outside New York State - Call 1-800-QUITNOW (1-800-784-8669)



Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: alloutsmith3 on December 04, 2007, 10:12:13 PM
quote:
quote:
quote:
Another thing the 15 dollars that you pay, only 9 or 10 of it goes into lineage.  We just put 4 kids and 1 adult on your lane, hit them for 4 dollars a pair for shoes and 4 dollars a per person a game.  They bowl two games and we just hit them for 50 bucks.  Sorry to the people who got stuck on your pair, but like a said, we are a business.
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!



The league bowler is there week end and week out and these open bowlers might be in 2-3 times per year so now who are you making more money off of. Not to mention the league bowler is more likely to spend more money on food/drinks as well as spend money in your proshop. If the center is run correctly there should be no problem having all the open bowling you can handle as well as having a fresh shot down for league.
--------------------
Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions


Exactly the open bowlers are aren't there nearly as often as the league bowlers.  So why would anyone turn them away, knowing that theres a good chance they won't come back for awhile.  The league bowler is there every week, he may be pissed at the end of the night, but we will be back
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!


Maybe, maybe not. If your the only center within 50 miles, yes, but if there are other centers that don't allow this then he/she may just go there. I know in my area there are too many centers to choose from to have to put up with stuff I don't want to. My "home" center stops all open play between 5 and 5:15 which gives the laneman more than enough time to dress the lanes and have them ready for league.
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: alloutsmith3 on December 04, 2007, 10:20:36 PM
quote:
Also, no one in trying to screw with the league's oil.  We aren't trying to get them upset by allowing open play, but we aren't going to turn paying customers away.  Its the luck of the draw, it happens and you have to bowl as well as you can.  Oiling gutter to gutter is just stupid, yes we want the scores to be high.  I know some people who refuse to bowl in certain centers because the shot is harder, we don't want to be that center.
--------------------
www.bowlingsolutions.com

Move left, hook it more.....

Tommy Jones is a Gamecock fan...are you???

We shall now refer a 4-bagger as a hambone...Mark it down the revolution has started!


I know its not intentionally done but it can be avoided. I was only trying to make a point with the oiling gutter to gutter comment. If oiling the lanes is only for protection, which you originally said, why worry about laying out a pattern at all, just do runs of 1 to 1 for 40-60ft. I'm all for making the conditions tougher, you can ask anyone who knows me, but they should be consistently tough across the whole league not just 1 or 2 pairs.
--------------------
Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: REvans284 on December 04, 2007, 10:44:53 PM
quote:
Exactly the open bowlers are aren't there nearly as often as the league bowlers.  So why would anyone turn them away, knowing that theres a good chance they won't come back for awhile.  The league bowler is there every week, he may be pissed at the end of the night, but he will be back


That mentality right there in running a center would drive me to go 15-20 miles or so down the road to the next center.  I'm not one to complain about bowling on a tougher shot, and I do have experience in and like Sport bowling.  But when the shot gets messed up (and without notice) to where I am not properly prepared to handle a given situation, and even if I was, it was much more difficult to score compared to the other lanes.. Then yea, I would complain too if I was big into pot bowling and brackets.  

Showing or saying that they don't care if you are pissed off when something isn't legitimately the same for everyone who is participating is a lack of performing your job responsibilities.  I'm sure your center has a pair designated as break down lanes, and if you have an open bowler let them bowl there until league starts. They aren't used 90% of the time anyway if things are properly maintained.... If not and the house is full, sorry, come by next time at X time or before X time.  If they really wanted to bowl that bad they will...  All of the centers in my area do this and thats part of it.  I've even went in on a night I didn't know they had a full house and they wouldnt give me a lane.  Its not a big deal. When people are there every week bowling for money, it is.

Like alloutsmith3 said.  The casual bowler may spend $50 2 times or 3 times a year.  Your loyal league bowlers (as individuals) spend around $10-20 weekly just in one league, not to mention the money spent on drilling, food, beer (for some), supplies such as tape, towels, rosen, etc..  I'd much rather take care of them first.

Later,

REvans284

Edited on 12/4/2007 11:46 PM
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Stever5000 on December 04, 2007, 11:45:24 PM
quote:
this is the part that had me rolling on the floor...

quote:
I wasn't even close on the high game pot and didn't go anywhere on brackets, which is what I really rely on every week for spending money.


Someone won the high game pot though, right?    You just need the lanes easy to have a chance right?  You are the personification of what is wrong with the game today.


Excuse me?  First of all, I never once said that I needed an easy shot, by far.  Our house shot is a relatively harder shot than I am used to, yes; but as far as unpredictable ball reaction behavior, I'll be the first to say that something's not right, but I won't be the last.  I've bowled the PBA patterns; I know how to play them.  I'm not a professional, but I can certainly read graphs and have somewhat of a clue what to expect and where to play.  But you cannot prepare for spotty carry-down and unpredictable dry midlanes on a supposedly "fresh" house shot, especially when there's no warning that the lanes had been used until after the last game.

Secondly, how dare you judge me as if you know me.  I asked a legitimate question about lane surface and league standards set by us league bowlers.  You had no right to demean me with such an ugly moronic comment.  If you didn't like what I was asking, you should have left it alone.
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quote:
go find a jesus forum if you wanna complain about right and wrong. shove your religious beliefs up your keister and i hereby revoke your man card.
Tee hee!
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: AngloBowler on December 05, 2007, 01:27:09 AM
"he may be pissed at the end of the night, but he will be back"

This comment just says it all!! This proprietor appears to view the league bowler as some kind of mug/cash machine who he can continue to tap throughout the year. I've encountered managers like this before and I don't think many businesses last a long time without repeat custom.

I dropped out of a league this year because the supposedly freshly dressed lanes had zero backend and were patchy like you wouldn't believe, without having had anyone bowling on them. This wasn't the first time either, last time they'd run out of stripping fluid for the last week. In both cases I felt like they were just stealing money from me, and I don't like turning up to bowl in an environment where scoring is essentially random.
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Reporting from England
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: vilecanards on December 05, 2007, 02:16:50 AM
If you know how to look for it, you can see if there has been someone bowling on your lanes, or if they truly are "fresh". Walk up to the foul line and look for where the oil pattern starts, usually 3-6 inches from the line. Using the reflections of the overhead lighting or pin-deck lighting, you can almost always see the ball marks in the track area or middle of the lane. When you see where those are, you can also tell (in a VERY general way) what kind of bowler was there.... righty/lefty, fairly consistent put-down marks means a fairly consistent bowler/release point, marks scattered around the center of the lane usually means a novice bowler pushing a plastic ball with the resulting indiscriminate destruction of the pattern and caarydown. It is by no means an exact science but, if nothing else it can tell you that there has INDEED been someone bowling on that lane. If this info can help you with your game plan, so much the better.... every little bit of information CAN help!
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r.k.wolfe
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Urethane Game on December 05, 2007, 07:56:18 AM
quote:
Secondly, how dare you judge me as if you know me. I asked a legitimate question about lane surface and league standards set by us league bowlers. You had no right to demean me with such an ugly moronic comment. If you didn't like what I was asking, you should have left it alone.
 


I believe you forgot a comma between ugly and moronic.  But what do I know, I'm a moron.  You posted and I replied.  I think it is hysterical that you are trying to generate supplementary income from bowling.  

I've bowled in a Brunswick Zone so I know first hand what you're talking about.  It can be disappointing to follow that kind of traffic but I would be just as miffed if they let a league bowler practice on the pair and break them down with a sanded orb.
--------------------
got revs? (http://"http://www.gotrevs.com")

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Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: justdale on December 05, 2007, 08:06:37 AM
For the money that the proprietor's are charging nowadays, I would expect a fresh shot every night. Clean center, and quick service on the food and beverages. And when we don't get any of that I am one of the first to complain about ( being that I am the league secretary, I get to listen to the bowler's complain).
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Dale Williams
Columbia 300 Utah Amateur Staff
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: on December 05, 2007, 09:01:39 AM
Yesterday I went to practice a few games after adjusting the surface on a ball, just to see what kind of reaction, etc.

Total waste of time.  The first bad sign was that I had to put away 6 or 7 house balls. Threw 2 warm-up shots extremely slow and way outside. The ball didn't even wrinkle... So much carry-down the ball didn't even sniff a hook.
Asked for the next lane over because I didn't want to move everything too far. Pretty much the same thing. Quit after 6 frames.  Last night in league on a fresh shot (very slick, but clean backends) and it was the opposite. The ball encountered friction and hooked...  Amazing concept isn't it?  Friction actually allowing a ball to move...  

My point is that open play with house balls and other plastic can completely ruin a shot. Bob Hanson said it well.

If I were competing against other bowlers (including brackets or side pots) who didn't have the same crap to bowl on, I'd be angry, too.  Give everyone the same shot, good or bad, and I'm okay with that.  Just don't cripple the guys on 1 or 2 teams because their lanes weren't saved for 15 minutes while you re-dress them.  League bowlers pay the bills when open play is erratic, at best. Think of summer months when open play kids are out doing other things...

Nobody here is asking for EASY, just FAIR!






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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Dan Belcher on December 05, 2007, 09:12:55 AM
(Kind of a FIGJAM moment here, but it has its purpose in this thread as an example...)  Our pair of lanes was "flooded" last night outside of 10 -- everyone else on my pair was complaining about how hard it was an dhow it played more like a PBA shot than a regular house pattern.  Which was fine by me -- I moved my feet right, breakpoint left, and rolled it up the back of the ball to grind out a 211, 239, 258.  And our team took 5 out of 7 points, mostly because I was the only person on our team putting up good numbers because I didn't let the shot get to me.  You take what the shot gives you and work with it.  Everyone else got frustrated by not having the wall to bank it off, but I just shut up and bowled and did by best.  And if you bowl well, you might win money.  It depends on what everyone else does too.  If you think your pair of lanes is just unplayable, then don't get in any jackpots that week.

(Believe it or not, the 239 won the 2nd game handicap pot and the 258 won the 3rd game actual pot.  In a men's league.  People on other pairs had complaints about either lots of oil or the left lane being different than the right lane, but no two pairs seemed to have the same complaints in general)

Edited on 12/5/2007 10:15 AM
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: JOE FALCO on December 05, 2007, 09:31:11 AM
Amazes me how a number of people only see that the original posting talked about losing money. Seems the question is totally overridden by them .. should every one who paid their league fees be entitled to the same shot (good or bad)?

I say if you don't complain to the desk there is no chance that this will STOP! Like a number of others who responded I think leagues that have this happen (allowing OPEN play on lanes about to be made available to Leagues) is NOT ACCEPTABLE! Signing up for a late league almost dictates a USED SHOT .. BUT .. open bowling before scheduled LEAGUE bowling is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Until leagues force the issue they will be NOT RESPECTED!

--------------------
Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: on December 05, 2007, 11:04:24 AM
Dan Belcher brings up a good point in that no lane condition is impossible.  Somehow there's a way to score on every shot.  It may take nearly 3 games to find that certain shot, but there's a way to do it.

Again, I just say make it the same for all bowlers in the same league and no one can complain.  We pay for brackets and side pots BEFORE league play starts, so if your lane is different due to carry-down, or whatever, it's too late. They don't give refunds if your first game was horrible.

I don't buy brackets, so there's no sour grapes here, I do enter the high game pot for a few bucks or 9th &10th frame punch-out, every night, that's about it. I'm just trying to be fair and objective from the standpoint of those who do buy brackets...  Not to mention the fact that some leagues have year end cash awards to those with high average, high scratch & handicap games, high team games, etc.  Everyone should have a "level playing field" so to speak.



 

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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: spmcgivern on December 05, 2007, 11:49:07 AM
I've heard many different ideas on this issue and I understand that bowlers, especially league bowlers, have certain demands.  Like others on here, I have managed a couple of bowling centers including a 1500 league member AMF center.  I also bowl leagues where there is a lot of side action.  

But last time I checked, the bowling center does not run brackets or side pots.  The league, in the eyes of the establishment, is a competition between two teams on a pair of lanes.  They don't care if the league decides to have brackets and the such.  

Is it unfair that the original poster got a pair of lanes that were difficult and had "no shot"?  NO.  Is it bad practice for the bowling center?  Probably.  

What you tend to run into in these situations is the GM might try to leave at 5pm leaving everything to the night manager who may not have an idea about what is "good business sense" when dealing with league lanes before the league shows up.  Could be a lack of training/understanding, but it happens.  (bowling centers are not a hotbed of superior managers)  Personally, I would do everything in my power to not put open bowlers on league lanes after they have been oiled.  But I can't say I have never done it either.  

I am sorry this happened to the original poster, but perhaps next time you can pay for you side action AFTER practice but before league starts if they let you.
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I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Strapper_Squared on December 05, 2007, 11:53:17 AM
Haha... or if the shot is fresh, at least make it playable...  I subbed in a league Monday night... there was a 196 SERIES, 295 SERIES, and a huge number of 300 series!  I shot a woeful 510 series and was second high in the entire league (15 5-man teams)...  

I agree with you 100% though.  For the average league, people pay good money and should be entitled to a decent fresh shot each week.  If they find it too easy or not enough challenge, then they can join a sport league.

S^2
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"This kind of inconsistency play against a team like New England will get you completely blowed out."

- Emmitt Smith 11/18/07
-Not only is he a poor commentator, but he fails to show basic knowledge of the English language- fire him! (http://"http://cbs.sportsline.com/columns/weblogs/entry/10472823")
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: themachine300 on December 05, 2007, 11:56:53 AM
I apologize for my comment about not caring for the league bowlers feelings at the end of the night, that is not true.  Anytime there is problem with our shot, it is addressed.  We are the only center on our side of Columbia for 20+ miles, and a new subdivision is constantly growing and we are getting better and better business every single week/month.  Most of our leagues are full capacity and they all start at 6:15.  We usually get done oiling the lanes at 5:30 or so.  That only gives a 45 minute window for whoever wants to bowl, to come in and bowl.  Regardless of what pair they bowl on they are messing with someone's shot.  Also, we are an older center with old wood lanes and older machines.  The more oil placed on the lanes, the more ball returns, the more the belts need to be cleaned, etc.  Our shot is easy, and we want to keep it that way.  The more advanced bowler would like the shot to be harder, but the average bowler wants to score as high as they can.  I have seen when our machine get screwed up, people intentionally bowl as bad as they can to prove a point.
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Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Stever5000 on December 05, 2007, 02:47:08 PM
For those of you who read the question and think I'm just whining about the money, thanks for playing.  Tired of dealing with ya, go bash someone else.  See ya!

For everyone else, I appreciate your honest answers.  I know this sort of thing can lean both ways.  It all boils down to the integrity of the bowling center, which I believe was lacking in my case.  Both the owner and the mechanic bowl in this league and are on the same team, so it's not like they didn't know.

A lot would have been different had I known that it was not a fresh shot, and I believe that most of you can agree to that as well had it been you.  Though the open play may have been inevitable for business reasons, I still think that there should have been some kind of warning if they could not rerun the pattern.
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quote:
go find a jesus forum if you wanna complain about right and wrong. shove your religious beliefs up your keister and i hereby revoke your man card.
Tee hee!
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: on December 05, 2007, 03:09:13 PM
I can adjust to the heads drying out. Carry-down is very difficult because the bowler cannot see it, therefore he starts trying harder and harder to "make" the ball hook, etc.  Often it takes a few frames to determine that carry-down is the likely problem, and in the meantime, your other league bowlers are striking on the "normal" shot.  
 
What about the pocket 8-10 splits, the pocket 5-7 splits (you name 'em) simply because the ball "slid" into the pocket instead of driving through the pocket.
I'm perfectly happy with having the "carry-down mess" if EVERYONE ELSE HAS IT, otherwise it's not a level playing field.








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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Stever5000 on December 05, 2007, 03:13:20 PM
quote:
I submit to you that the original post wouldn't even have been submitted if he had won the pot and got his weekly walking around money.


Again, it's about the money right?  WRONG.

quote:
I cannot believe that any bowler that would post on this forum is not good enough to make adjustments and compete.


So any bowler who expects the same fresh shot that the other bowlers are getting are the problems.  I guess the majority of the bowlers on here who seem to be opposing your ideas are "not good enough to make adjustments and compete."  Yeah, I totally see that.  Not.
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quote:
go find a jesus forum if you wanna complain about right and wrong. shove your religious beliefs up your keister and i hereby revoke your man card.
Tee hee!
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Strapper_Squared on December 05, 2007, 03:21:43 PM
quote:

WTF?  Did they just oil the backends or something?



Lane machine is a dinosaur.. breaks down about once a month...  and the mechanic is constantly "tweaking" the shot for some reason... that night, anything outside of 7 went dead straight or faded (even my Awesome revs at 1000 grit abralon went dead straight).  Inside of 7 seeming hooked as soon as it touched the lane.  I ended up playing inside.. 5th arrow ish and had an ok shot... but no carry.

S^2
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Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: on December 05, 2007, 03:44:04 PM
I am one who bowls on a 2nd shift league, as well as one "fresh shot" league.

The 2nd shift league poses some special challenges depending on who you follow and what equipment and where they were throwing it, etc.  Some nights are easy and the lanes open up, while others are "headaches waiting to happen". It goes with the territory. However, I can show up a 1/2 hour early and see who was bowling on my pair and have SOME warning.

If your league is 1st on the shot it would be normal to assume that everyone has the same condition, right?  Therein lies the problem.  Houses should, again, take precaution that league shots are as playable as possible for everyone.



 

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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: toomanytenpins on December 05, 2007, 06:14:36 PM
imagine coming in to league watching the lane man run the machine and having your ball make a left turn at your feet week in and week out.I ended up having to polish a lighter ball at 4000 just to compete.On a "fresh "shot.
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my style, the art of bowling without bowling
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Stever5000 on December 05, 2007, 07:33:19 PM
quote:
All I can figure out for sure is I'd like to bowl in your league if it takes so little to throw you off your game.  Admit it, you think about how "unfair" it is too you every shot, don't you?  Easy pickings.  I could retire off you.  You think about everything but the shot at hand.  You probably wait two lanes on each side to clear out so you're not distracted.  You ever bowl on a second shift league?  Try that.  You'd probably quit bowling.  Once again, tell us all how you would refuse to take over first place in your league if you bowled on the "fair pair" and took all seven points and the first place tema bowled on the "unfair" lanes and lost them all.  Give me a break!  Could be time to revoke that man card of YOURS!


No, actually, I don't.  This is the first time I've ever thought about anything being unfair.  And the fact of the matter is, I deemed it unfair because they knew it wasn't fresh, but yet they said nothing.

Yes I have bowled a 2nd shift league. 2nd shift leage on old wood, thank you.  Didn't have too much of a problem, either.  Some good nights, some bad nights.  Hope that filled your pipe.

Keep talking trash, it'll be ignored from now on.  Take your "I'm better than you are" attitude, stick it where the sun don't shine, and give it a few turns for everyone on here who is sick of looking at the trash that you can't help but to put forth to us.

You lose.  Good day, sir!  /ignore
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quote:
go find a jesus forum if you wanna complain about right and wrong. shove your religious beliefs up your keister and i hereby revoke your man card.
Tee hee!
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: storm making it rain on December 05, 2007, 08:02:40 PM
i agree to disagree with both sides of this debate here.  im a bowler but im also in the bowling business.  as a bowler i want to have a "fresh shot" like the rest of the league, especially when its usually a carry fest and spares are opens, on a house shot anyway.  but in our league contracts it says nothing about fresh oil conditions, breakdown pairs, etc.  our first priority is customer service and retention.  lets say that my center has 22 of 24 lanes running for league play, why should we keep the last two open for a "breakdown pair" and not let anyone else enjoy the game, hey maybe those open bowlers will get hooked and join your league.  does it say in the league contract that nobody can come into all of your centers after 5:30 for the league at 6?  thats ridiculous in my opinion.  finally at the beginning of this post someone had mentioned that league bowling is so much more dominant than open play...think again at that statement, just look at the numbers all over the nation percentage wise...just my personal thoughts from both angles of the spectrum..
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: JOE FALCO on December 05, 2007, 08:21:47 PM
Dbowler35 .. your comments gave me a good laugh .. thanks .. you are SO right!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: dechrist on December 05, 2007, 08:34:06 PM
quote:
Another thing the 15 dollars that you pay, only 9 or 10 of it goes into lineage.  We just put 4 kids and 1 adult on your lane, hit them for 4 dollars a pair for shoes and 4 dollars a per person a game.  They bowl two games and we just hit them for 50 bucks.  Sorry to the people who got stuck on your pair, but like a said, we are a business.



You strike me as the type that doesn't give your league bowlers a break either - I used to bowl at a house exactly like that - They could care less about league bowlers.

I'd suggest a *little* goodwill toward your league bowlers.
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Dale

My 2007-2008 arsenal is here (http://"http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb188/dechrist/Current/").

Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
-- General George S. Patton
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: alloutsmith3 on December 05, 2007, 09:53:04 PM
quote:
All I can figure out for sure is I'd like to bowl in your league if it takes so little to throw you off your game.  Admit it, you think about how "unfair" it is too you every shot, don't you?  Easy pickings.  I could retire off you.  You think about everything but the shot at hand.  You probably wait two lanes on each side to clear out so you're not distracted.  You ever bowl on a second shift league?  Try that.  You'd probably quit bowling. Once again, tell us all how you would refuse to take over first place in your league if you bowled on the "fair pair" and took all seven points and the first place tema bowled on the "unfair" lanes and lost them all.  Give me a break!  Could be time to revoke that man card of YOURS!


Whats bowling on a second shift league have anything to do with the shot being fresh for everyone on the 1st shift league. When you sign up for a second shift league you know you are coming into a situation were the shot could be bad. As for winning points and saying if you would take them or not you don't bowl against another team on a different pair, you bowl the team on your pair, so the shot is fair because both teams have to bowl on it. What becomes unfair is when you are competing against other bowlers in brackets and pots and they get a fresh shot and you get the wasted shot.
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Jason Smith
ABC North Lanes Pro Shop
Harrisburg, PA
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: alloutsmith3 on December 05, 2007, 10:03:42 PM
quote:
i agree to disagree with both sides of this debate here.  im a bowler but im also in the bowling business.  as a bowler i want to have a "fresh shot" like the rest of the league, especially when its usually a carry fest and spares are opens, on a house shot anyway.  but in our league contracts it says nothing about fresh oil conditions, breakdown pairs, etc.  our first priority is customer service and retention.  lets say that my center has 22 of 24 lanes running for league play, why should we keep the last two open for a "breakdown pair" and not let anyone else enjoy the game, hey maybe those open bowlers will get hooked and join your league.  does it say in the league contract that nobody can come into all of your centers after 5:30 for the league at 6?  thats ridiculous in my opinion.  finally at the beginning of this post someone had mentioned that league bowling is so much more dominant than open play...think again at that statement, just look at the numbers all over the nation percentage wise...just my personal thoughts from both angles of the spectrum..


Management at my home house stops all open play at 5-5:15 so the lanes can be done and ready for league play. Once the shot has been put down for league there is no open play until league pay is completed. I also never said that league play is more dominant than open play all I said was that the recreational bowler may only come in 2-3 times per year were your league bowler is there every week, maybe several days. In my opinion its worth turning away a few open bowlers to keep your league bowlers happy. If the people truly want to bowl they'll come back when open play is allowed.
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Jason Smith
VISE--The Choice of Champions
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Stever5000 on December 05, 2007, 10:29:05 PM
quote:
Whats bowling on a second shift league have anything to do with the shot being fresh for everyone on the 1st shift league. When you sign up for a second shift league you know you are coming into a situation were the shot could be bad. As for winning points and saying if you would take them or not you don't bowl against another team on a different pair, you bowl the team on your pair, so the shot is fair because both teams have to bowl on it. What becomes unfair is when you are competing against other bowlers in brackets and pots and they get a fresh shot and you get the wasted shot.

It has nothing to do with it.  He just wants to use anything he can to put me down for some reason.  Not really sure what I did to him, though.
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quote:
go find a jesus forum if you wanna complain about right and wrong. shove your religious beliefs up your keister and i hereby revoke your man card.
Tee hee!
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: baseballfrk8998 on December 05, 2007, 11:00:16 PM
Our center has signs on the door saying what nights they have league and when there is open bowling. We ALWAYS have a fresh shot. It's nice to have that luxury. We also only have 20 lanes and open bowling at 6 usually isn't a big deal. It's later on that night when open bowling actually makes most of its money. At least I think so, I don't see how they could make money with no one bowling during the day.
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Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: JOE FALCO on December 06, 2007, 07:32:10 AM
Amazes me how the subject is always missed by half the people responding!
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Hit them light and watch them fight
      J O E - F A L C O
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: storm making it rain on December 06, 2007, 08:49:27 AM
i agree with joe falco here, instead of posting a rant, try to put some legitimate thought into your post before you start typing.  fact of the matter is you have a complaint, complain to the center management not to people on the internet.  if the management truly cares about their bowlers they'll listen to you and resolve the problem, if not just find somewhere else to spend your money.
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Steven on December 06, 2007, 09:11:30 AM
Wow. This thread has sure made for some entertaining reading. Giving Stever5000 the benefit of the doubt that he had honorable intentions in asking the original question, he should have known better. The following question:

   
quote:
How honestly fair is it to expect a fresh shot for a men's league?


invariably creates a slippery slope whenever asked. The 'adjust to anything crowd' will get heartburn and swoop in for the kill. We certainly saw this here.  

As far as the question (that our friend Joe wants to keep focus on), I believe the answer is a qualified no -- we as bowler have no right to expect anything specific.

It's been pointed out that even with the best intents, different parts of most houses tend to play different for various reasons (proximity to doors, air conditioning, wear, etc.).

And sometimes, open play immediately before league can work to the subsequent leagues advantage. I like to practice in that 30 minute window between lane oiling and the start of the first shift league. It's one of the few times I get to bowl on a fresh heavy shot since my leagues are second shift leftovers. In the few games I get in, I dry out a little bit of track between the 5-10 boards that give the proceeding teams a bit of a head start. It can go both ways.

This is all really more about learning to put the starting condition out of your head. You can never control it, so just eliminate the mental baggage and just go out and bowl what you've been served.
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"Sometimes, the best move is the one we don't make"

Edited on 12/6/2007 10:13 AM
Title: Re: League Lane Conditions
Post by: Stever5000 on December 06, 2007, 12:57:13 PM
quote:
Wow. This thread has sure made for some entertaining reading. Giving Stever5000 the benefit of the doubt that he had honorable intentions in asking the original question, he should have known better. The following question:

   
quote:
How honestly fair is it to expect a fresh shot for a men's league?


invariably creates a slippery slope whenever asked. The 'adjust to anything crowd' will get heartburn and swoop in for the kill. We certainly saw this here.  

As far as the question (that our friend Joe wants to keep focus on), I believe the answer is a qualified no -- we as bowler have no right to expect anything specific.

It's been pointed out that even with the best intents, different parts of most houses tend to play different for various reasons (proximity to doors, air conditioning, wear, etc.).

And sometimes, open play immediately before league can work to the subsequent leagues advantage. I like to practice in that 30 minute window between lane oiling and the start of the first shift league. It's one of the few times I get to bowl on a fresh heavy shot since my leagues are second shift leftovers. In the few games I get in, I dry out a little bit of track between the 5-10 boards that give the proceeding teams a bit of a head start. It can go both ways.

This is all really more about learning to put the starting condition out of your head. You can never control it, so just eliminate the mental baggage and just go out and bowl what you've been served.
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"Sometimes, the best move is the one we don't make"

Edited on 12/6/2007 10:13 AM


Thank you.  That was what I was looking for.
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quote:
go find a jesus forum if you wanna complain about right and wrong. shove your religious beliefs up your keister and i hereby revoke your man card.
Tee hee!