Post by: Tarasevich on January 21, 2007, 01:06:49 PM
I currently don't throw Brunswick, but have in the past. My Wine Rhino, Rhino Gold Pearl, and Grizz were all great American made balls. The Brunswick corporation has seen recalls and quality problems as a result of some of their other divisions' production centres currently located in Mexico. Already, arrival of their new viz-a-balls will be delayed to may distributors by several months as a result of their relocation efforts.
Although brunswick is not, thankfully, outsourcing its sales and support stucture to India or otherwise off shore, the bowling community is going to be drastically impacted by these changes. Brunswick is not the only brand of balls that they manufacture, as many of us are aware.
While we are in a strong economy with low unemployment (actually below frictional unemployment of 5% which is considered acceptable), the fact that many noin-residents account for many of these positions, while natural or naturalized citizens suffer. My heart does go out for the great production team in Michigan.
This decision by Brunswick has already forced myself and others I know to no longer support Brunswick's centres or bowling and other recreational products now being shipped to Mexico.
My hopes are that the Big B finds a way to maintain qualiyt control and assurance of their once superior product. Has this decision caused unease or boycott by any bowlers in your areas?
Post by: MillWorker on January 21, 2007, 09:16:16 PM
You can't fault Brunswick for their move. They run a business. They are in business to make money and it's more efficient for them to produce equipment in Mexico. So be it. They have to compete for your business just like everyone else. If enough people don't like that the equipment is made in Mexico to the extent that they won't buy the product then Brunswick will be forced to make a change. We all know this isn't going to happen because most people don't care.
Brunswick had issues when they first open the plant down there... that's probably pretty normal with any opening. They fixed the issues... things are fine.
Time to find something else to whine about.
Post by: Tarasevich on January 21, 2007, 09:27:32 PM
Several of us made a decision. Brunswick had a great center here, and I very much like the company. With their quarterly earning beginning to suffer, they had to make a move. The top two issues here are #1 - ouutsourcing, and #2 - Quality. I am sure Brunswick has reacted to their problems appropriately and on time arrivals should improve later this year, but these issues affect all of the pro-shop owners out there who alreayd have it tough in many cases. Rather than speaking from a patriotic high-horse, I am just researching on this board to see if others out there have similar experiences. I wish Brunswick the best, and certainly their marketing team must have accounted for certain patron attrition after their move when they made risk assessments of how to fix their declines in revenue. My interest is only in how this decision weighed on the minds of the general bowler, and the Brunswick loyalists as well.
Post by: Cbjdc on January 21, 2007, 09:48:04 PM
Makes you wonder why your paying almost two hundred for that new ball or pair of shoes that could just be worth only five cents.
Post by: JustRico on January 21, 2007, 10:12:23 PM
So you guys will no longer support there products, so you will only bowl in an AMF house? Brunswick makes AMF parts. So you really have no OPTIONS, eh?
Also I think this is very hypocritical as EVERY other bowling product, as in bags and shoes are made outside the US and not in North America.
Please give this a rest as it really gets old. Get a hard on for something else.
Post by: Tarasevich on January 21, 2007, 10:12:25 PM
Not just $20 though. The Elite brand being manufactured by Brunswick are/were routinely sold from $199.00 - $379.00. What other BRunswick brands have already seen product conerns? Viz-a-ball is also a grave concern, as it is the premiere introductort ball for a veyr impressionable age group. This impacts the future of bowling. How many kids will quit not return to their Brunswick Superman, Shrek III, Warner Bros. etc... leagues the next season because their ball never arrived until well after the season ended, and summer is upon them leaving Bowling a distant memory? How many may never return? Then, many may never take a friend bowling? The White dots, Maxims, and $20 balls I threw as a kid were great, but Bowling was different then, the world was different then. Kids have more distractions, more options. Soccer was not a routine activity for kids that young 25 years ago, neither was ice hockey or skiiing. Baseball was in the summer, and your 9:00 a.m. league on Saturday never inerfered, and was something to look forward to.
Brunswick is an excellent company. But their quality issues, and regrettable decision to outsource their most American of products, really hit home for the 17 of us who left the center and their demographic permanently. If Manufacturing af major US automobiles left Detroit for the same reasons, would those companies expect to retain their customer base? Bowling is not just an American Sport, but Brunswick was a great American ball, which is becoming a mediocre and unreliable Central American ball.
I love bowling and America, an institution that was never as blue-collar stereotypical as others protest, but the most accepting sport off all people of all classes and races for a lot longer than many other pasttimes. Importing our equipment from foreign soil and negatively impacting the lives of more than 100 Americans who have certainly ensured my success on the lanes in the past is unacceptable. These posts are for them and for all others who I have seen hurt by the paradigm shift to a service economy we have suffered through since the mid 1980s. This is an issue that is emotional on many levels. Brunswick has intentionally hurt America again, and bowling this time by their actions.
Post by: JustRico on January 21, 2007, 10:32:06 PM
Also, how many automobiles are still made in Detroit? Try the rest of the world.
If Brunswick had decided to close it's manufacturing all together, how do you think that would have impacted bowling? Many of the out of work employees received severance packages.
Brunswick has not hurt bowling. The ABC/USBC has hurt bowling. If Brunswick had not got into the bowling industry over 100 years ago, there very well could have not been an industry as there is today.
You make it seem so easy and they (Brunswick) have created such heirasy.
There is not a single bowling ball manufacturer in the world that makes a profit. And in a decreasing market, they may be one or two less manufacturers in the future.
Brunswick did what they felt was necessary to stay in the bowling business. Look in the mirror when taking these stances. Look at things that YOU do have OPTIONS in when buying.
Post by: Cbjdc on January 21, 2007, 11:27:27 PM
It is just that simple. Honda for example makes an engine that runs past 100,000 miles but is it because of the company name or is it because the can produce a quality vehicle. Brunswick can make qlty products it is just how they are made and by whom. You pay what you get. If you pay someone 3 dollars your going to get 3 dollars of effort. Simple
Post by: laufaye on January 22, 2007, 12:19:15 AM
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Laufaye
Post by: shepd1999 on January 22, 2007, 05:40:34 AM
So instead of blaming just Brunswick. Take notice that it is just about every industry looking at this option.
Post by: REVerse on January 22, 2007, 05:58:36 AM
I sometimes wonder why some of the laid off employees have not made posts on this site. It would be cool to hear their side of the story.
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Ray
Beer and Brunswick. It doesn't get any better.
Post by: mrteach3 on January 22, 2007, 06:51:08 AM
The fact holds true. Yes, Brunswick in in Mexico. Many other companies in the US produce products other places. Yes, Brunswick is having some production issues right now. Find me a company that builds a brand new plant that wouldn't have issues in the beginning.
Get with it Tar. Just about everything in the world has some part that is built in another country. You better start boycotting just about everything else you use too.
YIKES!!!
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Who needs a 300 or 800, when I have a 294 and a 295!?!?!
Post by: JustRico on January 22, 2007, 08:03:02 AM
First of all, thank you for telling me I am out of my mind. If that is the worst you can say about me, well, I will manage.
Lane #1 is NOT a manufacturer, they are a customer of Columbia and previously one of Brunswick.
The only reason why Lane #1 could make a profit is they over price there product and dupe customers into believing they have some superior product. But that's another subject.
All manufacturers raised there prices due to the rising price of petroleum, plain and simple. And yes Brunswick is in business, as is all other companies, to make a profit.
Do you have any clue what the union workers were being paid? I believe I do and they were overpaid for what they were doing. It was not skilled labor. And you are going to tell me that the cost of living in Michigan was that high to warrant what they were being paid?
So you are saying that the industry will follow Lane #1 and there pricing structure? I doubt it. There are many areas that do not support Lane #1 or Elite because of there overflated product.
What was ignorant about my statement referring to Columbia covers? They are horrible and it shows in there sales. Moronic...again thank you.
So you are saying if a plant has illegal aliens it is okay because they are in the US? That's support. Actually it's hypocritical.
So no matter how Brunswick would have handled closing the plant would have sufficed to you even if they would have moved the plant anywhere else in the US? This would have happened if the plant were closed and moved to say Syracuse.
I was not attacking just pointing out the battles certain individuals choose to fight. You feel strong enough to debate me in an attacking manner. What is redundant about my retort?
I was voicing my opinion as was he and is you. This topic is redundant.
So it is okay for him to point out his views but not okay for me to? That is usually the way it goes, if you do not agree with me, I do not want to hear it, so please go along with my views, because I am right and you are wrong.
The reason why the economy is failing, as you put it, is because of Americans views of there self worth. You are among those (apparently) that feel there is an automatic owe those something. No one is owed anything for merely being there. That is why our economy is in the shape it is, no other reason. Instead of doing, you expect.
You have your opinionated views as do I. Each feel strongly about our views and there is nothing wrong with that. So if I may be moronic, then so be it, but I believe you to be right along side.
Post by: Tarasevich on January 22, 2007, 08:04:04 AM
Thank you for your responses. Indeed I do buy alternatives made in the USA, and hopefully by American citizens. Indeed, I also buy locally and try to influence an economy of scale. The solution is in our hands, and patronizing companies that routinely contribute to the suffering of Americans only worsens that problem. Do we have preferences? Yes, buy a VW or a Toyota. Hell, buy a Honda, it was probably made in the USA. Can you buy a DVD player that was made in the USA? A Television? Much clothing? (Well, that one you can do somewhat easily).
Shepd1999, I am all too familiar with the situations in Portage, Detroit, Mattawan, and just about every other part of Michigan. I have many friends suffer the fate of the American production worker having their decades long expertise in a craft eliminated permanently as their companies either closed, or outsourced their job to foreign soil either by contracting with an experienced foreign producer, or building overseas, eitherway removing that cashflow from our economy. Michigan is a beautiful state. Hang in there, I hope you find work in your field soon.
My point is that every little bit helps. I am not organizing a boycott of Brunswick. Nor did we here. This was a mutual consensus of fellow brunswick consumers. There may have been some following, but not with any coersion or coaxing. Like all of us, we had a choice. And we chose to buy American.
Post by: MVbowler on January 22, 2007, 08:57:51 AM
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Post by: Djarum on January 22, 2007, 03:28:48 PM
quote:
God Bless the USA....well, unless I can save a few nickels on my motorized tie-racks. Welcome to the race to the bottom. Justify it all you want, it's nothing but corporate externalization (in this case labor costs). One day all Americans will learn the trusty phrase, "do you want fries with that?"
(Disclaimer: In no way do I fault Brunswick, they are playing the only game possible to survive. I still like and respect the Big B...they are, like many good companies, victims of the plague.)
Edited on 1/22/2007 3:49 PM
Its the Wal-Mart way.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: MARKER on January 22, 2007, 03:29:26 PM
If the move kept Brunswick in business then it saved many US jobs in engineering, sales, marketing, distribution, etc. There are still Brunswick employees here who service lane equipment, etc.
It was hard for me to accept this move at first, but I have. It would have been a much greater tragedy to lose a great company like this.
Marker
Post by: shelley on January 22, 2007, 03:39:00 PM
quote:
When is the last time you have seen a ford go 100,000 miles before a problem has occured.
If your Ford, GM, Chrysler, or any other car hasn't lasted 100K miles, you aren't changing the oil enough. Change your oil regularly, say, around every 100 miles or so, and any car will last longer than the driver.
SH
Post by: Rileybowler on January 22, 2007, 03:48:44 PM
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Carl
Post by: Djarum on January 22, 2007, 03:52:51 PM
quote:quote:
When is the last time you have seen a ford go 100,000 miles before a problem has occured.
If your Ford, GM, Chrysler, or any other car hasn't lasted 100K miles, you aren't changing the oil enough. Change your oil regularly, say, around every 100 miles or so, and any car will last longer than the driver.
SH
Change oil every 100 miles??
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: shelley on January 22, 2007, 03:59:13 PM
quote:
Change oil every 100 miles??
That's what I hear, anyway. Personally, I drive through the oil change place on my way home from work every day, sometimes twice if I have errands to run.
SH
Post by: 102101 on January 22, 2007, 04:11:52 PM
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102101? Hmmmm
Having a closed mind is a terrible way to go through life.
www.blackhawklanes.com
Post by: MegaMav on January 22, 2007, 04:37:59 PM
quote:quote:
Change oil every 100 miles??
That's what I hear, anyway. Personally, I drive through the oil change place on my way home from work every day, sometimes twice if I have errands to run.
SH
you do realize that there are other parts on a car that wear, that oil doesnt touch right?
every 100 miles, at that pace, you could buy another car in a few years from the money NOT spent on that rediculous ritual.
Post by: RealBowler on January 22, 2007, 04:58:12 PM
Anyways, if (and when) the Democrats win the next election (especially if that evil Hilary Clinton wins), I'll be buying items made in the country where I reside - do they make anything in Canada?
Anybody know how I can get in touch with Michael Moore? I'd like to move into his neighborhood!
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Haywood
**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
Post by: pilinki on January 22, 2007, 06:28:22 PM
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beware STORM coming
Post by: Bowler19 on January 22, 2007, 06:41:37 PM
As for car lasting 100K. GM and DCX have added their 100000mile warranty. Also perform regular preventative maintenance(Oil-every 3000miles, Tranny flush-say 20000miles, Chassis Lube every so often) and your car will last
As for Brunswick moving to Mexico. Who Cares if you don't want to buy them fine(won't hurt their feelings any) if you do great(they appreciate your business).
Everyone has the right to their own opinions.
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Bowler19
But be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.-W. Shakespear
Post by: mrteach3 on January 22, 2007, 07:16:05 PM
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Who needs a 300 or 800, when I have a 294 and a 295!?!?!
Post by: shelley on January 22, 2007, 07:31:21 PM
quote:
Oh my god, YIKES!!! I have often disagreed with Shelly and not said anything, but this time. Every 100 miles. Lord, help us all with that comment.
That's just what I heard from a reliable source who said his brother or cousin did that. The car companies want you to go 3K miles between changes because they know their engines won't hold up that long. 200K, 300K later, the engine is shot. But do it every 100 miles and that puppy will last forever.
SH
Post by: BrunsNick on January 22, 2007, 08:12:41 PM
So a person that has to drive 100 miles roundtrip to work and back should change their oil every day? Hmm, okay 5 days a week and 25 a pop. $125 a week, $500 a month. $6,000 a year!
Cuckoo!
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-07
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
¡Viva la nación de Brunswick!
Post by: smash8-10split on January 22, 2007, 08:19:13 PM
quote:quote:
Oh my god, YIKES!!! I have often disagreed with Shelly and not said anything, but this time. Every 100 miles. Lord, help us all with that comment.
That's just what I heard from a reliable source who said his brother or cousin did that. The car companies want you to go 3K miles between changes because they know their engines won't hold up that long. 200K, 300K later, the engine is shot. But do it every 100 miles and that puppy will last forever.
SH
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hold my hammer, while i NAIL your girlfriend.
Post by: qstick777 on January 22, 2007, 11:04:35 PM
quote:
That's just what I heard from a reliable source who said his brother or cousin did that. The car companies want you to go 3K miles between changes because they know their engines won't hold up that long. 200K, 300K later, the engine is shot. But do it every 100 miles and that puppy will last forever.
SH
Actually, most companies are moving away from 3k miles to somewhere around 5k-7.5k. GM actually has started using an oil life monitor based on "driving characteristics," stuff like amount of time idling, RPMs, temperature, etc, and they recommend only changing oil when the computer tells you to, or once per year if the indicator never goes off.
Of course, Jiffy Lube and the oil companies would love for you to change your oil every week!
http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/environment/news_issues/news/simplified_maintenance_040104.html
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/changing-oils_changing_drain_intervals.htm
--------------------
Best post ever:http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5
Search Ballreviews entire database here: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
Edited on 1/23/2007 0:04 AM
Edited on 1/23/2007 0:06 AM
Post by: JustRico on January 23, 2007, 07:28:28 AM
People focus.
Post by: TweenerWannaBe on January 23, 2007, 08:38:14 AM
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Tom
Post by: JustRico on January 23, 2007, 08:54:38 AM
Post by: APheLion on January 23, 2007, 09:27:43 AM
ppl initiating a useless discussion such as this one, creates conflicts and let me point out something:
quote:
currently don't throw Brunswick, but have in the past. My Wine Rhino, Rhino Gold Pearl, and Grizz were all great American made balls
if u didnt throw any recent bowling balls from brunswick, why are u trying to say u not going to buy anything thats new?
its like saying i didnt buy a car for 10 years and now because some american company is moving to Mexico and not going to buy from that company... are u going to buy anytime soon? if not why bother initiating a conversation like this? do i care if u going to buy one? u r not going to change my mind because u r not buying from big B, and i dont think u can change some1 else's mind by doing so. therefore this topic is useless and pointless
if u have any problem with big B moving to Mexico, call the CEO of big b and tell him that he has done wrong and u r not going to buy another big b ball since u love so much ur wine rhino, RGP, Grizz... and havent tried any inferno or zones which are the main products from brunswick for the last couple of years.
--------------------
When a house bowler misses the mark, misses the break point and strike, for many ppl its called a wallshot. When a pro does that its call adjustment
When a house bowler gets his finger stuck in the ball and fall on the lanes, for many ppl its called lame bowler. When a pro does that its called the Machuga flop! ha i like this one
This guy on youtube posts videos of the PBA
for ppl who dont watch TV or want to save the matches this will be great!
link! click me (http://"http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Wolf12395")
Post by: Bjaardker on January 23, 2007, 12:06:43 PM
quote:
There is not a single bowling ball manufacturer in the world that makes a profit.
Wholly untrue.
Everytime this topic has come up I've posted the yearly review from Brunswick corporation showing that their bowling ball division was well in the black & making a profit.
The portion of the company not making a profit was their bowling center division, and after the major restructuring they were doing that was projected to be in the black by EOY 2008.
Post by: Djarum on January 23, 2007, 12:49:59 PM
quote:quote:
Oh my god, YIKES!!! I have often disagreed with Shelly and not said anything, but this time. Every 100 miles. Lord, help us all with that comment.
That's just what I heard from a reliable source who said his brother or cousin did that. The car companies want you to go 3K miles between changes because they know their engines won't hold up that long. 200K, 300K later, the engine is shot. But do it every 100 miles and that puppy will last forever.
SH
LOL. I remember jls talking about getting an oil change every 1000 miles, thought he was nuts.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.
Post by: qstick777 on January 23, 2007, 01:28:57 PM
quote:quote:
There is not a single bowling ball manufacturer in the world that makes a profit.
Wholly untrue.
Everytime this topic has come up I've posted the yearly review from Brunswick corporation showing that their bowling ball division was well in the black & making a profit.
The portion of the company not making a profit was their bowling center division, and after the major restructuring they were doing that was projected to be in the black by EOY 2008.
Have to agree with that.
It's from 2004, so maybe things have changed: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/2004-05-27-hiestand_x.htm
quote:
But consumers buy about 2 million balls annually, Chrisman says. And while the privately held Storm Bowling doesn't release sales figures, Chrisman says it has about 28% of the high- and mid-priced ball market — and fragrances have "done a lot for the brand."
I don't see how the companies are staying in business if they are losing money. And, if they are losing money, why are they continuing to spend "millions" in R&D, and why do they continue to release a new ball every few months?
Plus, let's all not forget that bowling is in a state of decline and pretty soon the entire game/sport of bowling will just be a memory!
--------------------
Best post ever:http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5
Search Ballreviews entire database here: http://www.bowling-info.com/Search.html
Edited on 1/23/2007 2:30 PM
Post by: shelley on January 23, 2007, 01:59:22 PM
quote:
LOL. I remember jls talking about getting an oil change every 1000 miles, thought he was nuts.
Damn that took a long time to figure out. I was getting ready to give up.
SH
Post by: MARKER on January 23, 2007, 02:26:34 PM
You don't find too much chroming going on compared to what took place in the past in the US. Most of your smaller aftermarket auto parts that are chromed are imported and they are really cheap.
About 10 years ago, I saw what a US company was paying for product they were importing. For a decent quality racing oil pan they were paying $50 each delivered to the US. They were selling them to their WD's for $100 each. End user paid $150-200. So there lies the rub. Where most people would be happy to have 20-40% profit to their WD's (warehouse direct) the greedy ones were doubling their money on even big ticket items.
The other unfortuntate thing is that we often don't know where things are made.
Sometimes in auto parts, especially aftermarket products, the manufacturers somehow skirt labeling things as foreign made. Many of the aluminum castings start life outside of this country, then are finished and put in a box where everyone thinks it was made in good ole USA. Then when someone tries to make the product from start to finish here, they go under. Not fair. Our government needs to do a much better job requiring labeling. At least with information you could make a choice in purchasing, if it was important to you.
As far as Brunswick goes, they have been upfront I feel as far as their new plant and what they are doing. So, while you do have a choice whether to buy their balls, when you do purchase a Brunswick ball you are dealing with a company that demonstrates integrity. Plus their staff frequents these forums and has proven very helpful inspite of being on the receiving end of a lot of negative posts.
Marker
Post by: keglerskave on January 24, 2007, 10:53:11 PM
They've taken away jobs from US citizens, Mothers and Fathers, all factory workers who have faithfully punched the big "B" timeclock for decades.
If the actual production costs are reduced by, say, 25% because Mario, Jose and Juanita are very happy to receive their $5 an hour wage, do you honestly think the wholesale cost will refelect this? I'm sure the suggested retail price of the newest Brunswick line will reflect this and drive the market price of ALL bowling balls down across the U.S of A. No? You don't think so?
Just curious. What's the suggested retail price of the Fury? I'm gonna guess $229.95.....Think the actual cost to manufacture this ball is the same as the original Inferno? Not if you ask all the Michigan factory workers who are trying to salvage their lives....heck, it's even one of those new, high tech SYMMETRICAL cores! <sigh>
Jim
Officially promoting and recommending American-made bowling equipment. Enough is enough.
Post by: Brickguy221 on January 24, 2007, 11:11:26 PM
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Brick
Post by: UpTheLeftGutta on January 24, 2007, 11:42:28 PM
Globalization is going to rearrange business. Its a fact and deal with it.
Stop complaining that a job is going out of town. The unemployment rate is low, and as far as I am concerned, my job outlook after school is great.
American made is a thing of the past.
The quality in products is amazingly similar, so companies cannot compete on that anymore.
The competiton has moved into a cost cutting/incentive trend.
The american car market is lagged by the Union component.
Japanese cars are now assembled in the USA. Woah, we added jobs here!!
American Cars are at their peak quality. Just look at GM's warranty. It rivals Hyndaui
Post by: Djarum on January 25, 2007, 07:38:12 AM
quote:
Read "The world is flat" by friedman.
Globalization is going to rearrange business. Its a fact and deal with it.
Stop complaining that a job is going out of town. The unemployment rate is low, and as far as I am concerned, my job outlook after school is great.
American made is a thing of the past.
The quality in products is amazingly similar, so companies cannot compete on that anymore.
The competiton has moved into a cost cutting/incentive trend.
The american car market is lagged by the Union component.
Japanese cars are now assembled in the USA. Woah, we added jobs here!!
American Cars are at their peak quality. Just look at GM's warranty. It rivals Hyndaui
We have a toyota plant, hyundai plant, and a honda plant all in the state of Alabama.
Dj
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The views and opinions of Djarum expressed on BallReviews.com do not necessarily state or reflect those of the BallReviews.com.