Post by: BrunsBob on July 28, 2006, 01:40:50 AM
I just want to share a few things about how we came about our ball releases for this summer. There have been way to many negative responses on here to let rumors continue. We don't normally share business practices on forums like this, but there are some things that can be mentioned that might help all of you understand our position.
First and foremost is our move to Mexico for production. I will not discuss the whys, just the effects on production this summer. With our move we will now begin manufacturing our own cores instead of having them made for us. Our R & D team, on top of trying to design balls, has spent the past year designing a core production room, so any advancements in cores had to be put on hold for the time being due to lack of time. Because of this, it was necessary for us to continue to use cores that we knew were already proven and that we could still have made for us as needed until the day comes that we are actually in production of our own cores.
That brings me to the actual balls we released. First, the Wizard. Yes, it was designed to specifically replace the Nemisis, which we felt was a great performance that just needed updating so shops could have something new and fresh to sell. They asked for it and we delivered. With that being said, we still feel that we see a slight difference in ball reaction, most likely due to color change. Second, the Red Zone. We felt this line needed a new look cosmetically and we felt we could create a reaction similar to the successful Zone Classic, yet keep it in a solid coverstock with more versatility. Again, we feel the color change has affected the reaction of this ball compared to a Strike Zone with the cover shined to copy that of the Red. Both balls reactions look terrific, and the success stories still pour in on a weekly basis. On top of that, Pro Shops are pleased that we gave them 2 good looking balls with catchy names that are easily marketable.
Then there is the Radical, our first ball to come out of Mexico only. Again we stuck with a core that we have proven and that we are able to tweak to create RG and Diff numbers that worked well with our new coverstock. The Octane coverstock is an Activator base material that we advanced so much that we could not manufacture it in Muskegon with the older machinery. We have worked on this cover for a few years, just couldn't run with it yet, until now. I think this ball, with it's extreme versatility in coverstock, will be the hit release of the season. We experimented with this ball at the Mini-Eliminator tournament with all styles of bowlers, using a multitude of surface changes and layouts. Most impressive thing was that no matter how much we dulled it down for the oily conditions, it never burned up early on the pattern. It was still clean through the front with even better midlane reaction and strong on the back. That's hard to create with a dull surface, and it was not just because of the amount of oil on the lanes. Some guys were still able to use the ball shiny on the same lanes with success. We were able to match each ball up to each bowler to create the reaction needed. On top of that, it was our first ball ever to be a combination of more than 2 colors. I think we came up with a great color with our first ball to use this new technology.
I hope most of you did not feel we were dodging the questions about the Wizard and Red Zone just being the same balls re-released under new names and looks. We felt we answered those questions when asked....not attacked. We try not to discuss the specifics of our business on these boards, we just hoped that the balls would speak for themselves. There are numerous factors that go into each and every new release, and we do not want to share all that information on public forums. Believe me, we knew these balls would not be for everyone, they never are. We just knew what shops wanted and what bowlers could have success with and we made them.
As the months go on, and production in Mexico gets to full force, you will see new and exciting technology from us. We knew this would be a very difficult transition to make while still continuing to stick to our scheduled releases. We are very pleased to say that we hit these hurdles in full stride and met our objectives......now we move forward in a very strong way.
Thank You very much to all the loyalists that have stuck by us and defended our honor during this transition. And to all the naysayers, we apologize for any discomfort and confusion we have caused you. We want to help every bowler out there, but we will not respond to negative attacks made in such childish manners on these forums. We feel it is very unprofessional to do so.
Regards,
Robert Lawrence
Product Specialist - SW
Brunswick Bowling - Consumer Division
Edited on 7/28/2006 9:59 AM
Post by: Strider on July 28, 2006, 10:02:52 AM
--------------------
Penn State Proud
Ron Clifton's Bowling Tip Archive (http://"http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm")
Post by: shelley on July 28, 2006, 10:26:43 AM
quote:
With our move we will now begin manufacturing our own cores instead of having them made for us.
Interesting. I didn't know you didn't make your own cores. Will the new core production equipment allow you to make multi-density cores? I've noticed that pretty much every core you've had in recent memory has been single-density, not a lot of flip blocks or attached parts (a la Morpheus). I'm not sure what the benefits or drawbacks are to multi-density cores (aside from the fact that they can't be machined out of a solid block of stuff and are more expensive), I'm just curious.
quote:
advanced so much that we could not manufacture it in Muskegon with the older machinery.
Kinda begs the question of how you made it in the first place.
I'm glad you guys are here, you bring not only a wealth of knowledge about the sport and its equipment but also a unique perspective to many of the questions that you answer. We get not only the normal pro-shop knowledge that so many of the drillers here have but also insight into the PBA and the benefit of knowing not only what worked, ball-wise, but what didn't (and thus didn't get released in the first place).
SH
Post by: Keith Frye on July 28, 2006, 10:52:26 AM
Post by: Easy10pins on July 28, 2006, 11:59:36 AM
*pre-orders Radical Inferno, hopes BrunsRicH can come back to show me how to use it*
BTW, for those that asked, I am not affiliated with Brunswick. I changed my name to BrunsRod (formerly known as Easy10pins) because I simply love Brunswick bowling equipment. From my Gold and Teal Rhinos to my StrikeZone; it is all I will ever use.
--------------------
Solid 7 Pin?? 299 Game??!! WTF
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on July 28, 2006, 01:03:12 PM
Anyway, yeah you shouldn't respond to childish attacks. It doesn't look good for a company rep to engage in a flamewar on a forum.
But seriously, don't worry about causing 'discomfort and confusion' because people can and will always just buy another company's equipment. It's not like people are running around in pain and confusion because they don't like a particular bowling line. Well maybe if they are these 'loyalists' you speak of.
--------------------
Current Arsenal:
Geddy Lee
Of salesmen!
Post by: MegaMav on July 28, 2006, 01:10:57 PM
I'll always buy from Brunswick, because I know what goes into making each ball.
Did you read that? They've been planning this ball for years, thats what I love about Big B, its about planning, and not just the latest "fad".
It's hard not to support a company thats as competitive in the industry as the bowlers that use their equipment.
I applaud you Brunswick and Brunswick Reps, keep up the good work.
World Domination <check>
--------------------
USBC Certified Bowler
Average: 197 (Non-THS)
Arsenal Details (http://"http://www.allbowling.com/registry/public.php?regid=134")
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on July 28, 2006, 01:15:37 PM
quote:
I am one of those loyalists.
I'll always buy from Brunswick, because I know what goes into making each ball.
Did you read that? They've been planning this ball for years, thats what I love about Big B, its about planning, and not just the latest "fad".
It's hard not to support a company thats as competitive in the industry as the bowlers that use their equipment.
I applaud you Brunswick and Brunswick Reps, keep up the good work.
World Domination <check>
What is the latest fad anyway?
--------------------
Current Arsenal:
Geddy Lee
Of salesmen!
Post by: Easy10pins on July 28, 2006, 01:38:18 PM
quote:
What is the latest fad anyway?
Multi-colored balls.
--------------------
Solid 7 Pin?? 299 Game??!! WTF
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on July 28, 2006, 02:04:36 PM
quote:
You know what I have to say to this? Thank you! I only wish other comanys woudl be as upfrount and honest as you. Storm does this all the time and no one says any thing. All the sudden you guys try it and get attacked. Rename every thing I dont care as long as they strike I will buy them. I wave seen the zone classic, and strike zone roll and from what I saw of the red zone it looked great and very different in the reaction catagory. Buy the way I am a big foot ball fan so I love the name Red Zone. This has been the only zone (other than the black ice) that I have been thanking about picking up. great job Brunswick!
Oh is that the naysaying? Why shouldn't they revamp their stuff? I mean if something isn't selling for whatever reason but it works just fine, why not revamp the look of it and see if it sells?
Personally, I like it if a ball company keeps their stuff out as long as it is useful. If you have to rename it and redesign the look of it, no problem.
--------------------
Current Arsenal:
Geddy Lee
Of salesmen!
Post by: Xfest on July 28, 2006, 02:25:52 PM
I do not totally agree with the move to Mexico, but its what the company desided. I used to be an all Brunswick man, to all Track man, then back to throwing whatever. Brunswick has a great company and can design a great ball. Lets just hope moving down to Mexico does not lower the ball quality.
--------------------
ÈĻ Arsenèl
Track Mean Machine (Heavy)
Lane #1 Dirty Bomb (Med-Heavy)
Track Machine (Medium)
Brunswick Original Inferno (Light-Med)
Track Desert Heat (Light)
Brunswick Ambush (Spare)
I throw it all, just give me a ball, I'll throw it. =]
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on July 28, 2006, 02:27:58 PM
quote:
Lets just hope moving down to Mexico does not lower the ball quality.
So... many jokes... Must be... politically correct.
--------------------
Current Arsenal:
Geddy Lee
Of salesmen!
Post by: HamPster on July 28, 2006, 02:53:58 PM
As a side note, I think it's kind of stupid how people keep attacking Brunswick, when they're one of the more honest companies out there. Unlike other companies who try to market every single ball as the newest greatest thing whether they're obviously just updating or improving old technology, Brunswick will let you know exactly what they're doing as far as what ball they're improving on, and what differences they were going for. While some people have to have the newest thing, I think it's great to have a company that will continue to research and develop new technology while still taking something that works and improving upon it. Everyone has that ball that's been discontinued for years that they wish they could find again. Brunswick kind of does that by using older coverstocks on new BVP balls, and there is absolutely no better midprice line to be found. I think it's also very professional for such a large company to address the piddly little complaints of people completely ignorant to the bowling business as a whole on a small, virtually insignificant website (and note that I'm not saying that everyone who has a complaint is ignorant . . I'm talking about the morons who don't have constructive criticism). If everyone at Brunswick is as passionate as Rick Benoit (who I get a chance to chat with from time to time during the summer while he's in town), I can see how it would be very disappointing to them all to work so hard just to have items still in development leaked and critiqued before they have a chance to present the finished product. Put yourself in their position before you're so quick to speak next time . .
--------------------
New member of the Metal Militia!!! If you think Simple Plan is metal, then you must die. And not get to be a member . .\m/!!!
Post by: KDawg77 on July 28, 2006, 02:55:37 PM
j/k--------------------
That's right. I said it!
Post by: MegaMav on July 28, 2006, 02:58:24 PM
quote:
Brunswick moves to Mexico and the Milwaukee Brewers add "El Picante" the Chorizo to the Sausage Race. Let's hear it for NAFTA!
dont mind him, hes been stuck at 13 for the past 20 years.
Post by: KDawg77 on July 28, 2006, 02:59:52 PM
I've never argued against the Big B moving or the current "Nem/Wiz" and "Red/Strike" hullaballo.
--------------------
That's right. I said it!
Post by: HamPster on July 28, 2006, 03:06:34 PM
--------------------
New member of the Metal Militia!!! If you think Simple Plan is metal, then you must die. And not get to be a member . .\m/!!!
Post by: shelley on July 28, 2006, 04:02:39 PM
quote:quote:
What is the latest fad anyway?
Multi-colored balls.
I don't know if I'd call multi-color balls a "fad".
SH
Post by: shelley on July 28, 2006, 04:09:06 PM
quote:
SH,
Great question regarding multi-density cores. We'd really like to respond to it in detail, but unfortunately, we would be giving away our trade secrets.
...
I fear "not answering" your question because of the recent posts from the past 3 or 4 days, but this is how I must respond.
No problem(o). Wouldn't want you to give away any secrets. Just curious.
I don't know if you can answer this or not, but what are the advantages or disadvantages to multi-density cores? I know several other companies have them, and I'm sure you guys have done tests, but are there things that you can do as a ball designer with a multi-density core that can't be done with a single-density core (of the same or different shape)? I can see the advantage to something like Visionary's AMB core where the "MB" is really created by a light-weight cap that "adds" mass to the other side of the ball. But it seems like it's more expensive to make complex multi-density weight blocks since the parts have to be made separately and then joined together in a second step.
SH
Post by: shelley on July 28, 2006, 04:13:32 PM
quote:
Hey, I've been out of the loop for a while . . what's the coverstock on the Radical? Pearl, solid, or particle?
I believe it's a pearl reactive. The oldest balls in the Inferno line are the Absolute and Smokin' and they're both pearls, so I'd imagine that when replacement time comes around, that's what they'd replace it with.
SH
Post by: BrunsBob on July 28, 2006, 08:07:34 PM
Regardless of how "fancy" a core may look with multiple parts, in the end all that matters is the "numbers" created. If you have a 2.50 RG with a .050 Diff. created by a single piece core and you have the same numbers in a 3 or 4 piece core, the results are the same. The numbers are what matter, so why risk the chance of core seperation or cracking caused by these multiple pieces.
That is pretty much our stance on it.
Rob LAW
--------------------
I'm gettin' old, I'm hurtin', but I've got Brunswick balls.......Color me competitive.
Post by: shelley on July 28, 2006, 08:42:57 PM
quote:
Regardless of how "fancy" a core may look with multiple parts, in the end all that matters is the "numbers" created. If you have a 2.50 RG with a .050 Diff. created by a single piece core and you have the same numbers in a 3 or 4 piece core, the results are the same. The numbers are what matter, so why risk the chance of core seperation or cracking caused by these multiple pieces.
That is pretty much our stance on it.
In that case, why bother creating different cores? If the numbers dictate the core's influence, why have two cores with the same numbers? If you've got one 2.50/0.050 core, why bother designing another one? Certainly you've had such cores in the past, so what was the motivation for creating another one for the Inferno?
I'm sorry, but that statement implies that shape doesn't matter, only the numbers, and I can't believe that. You've had much more experience and have access to scientific data that I don't, so I'll concede that you have the upper hand here, but it just doesn't seem right.
SH
Post by: HamPster on July 28, 2006, 09:24:10 PM
--------------------
New member of the Metal Militia!!! If you think Simple Plan is metal, then you must die. And not get to be a member . .\m/!!!
Post by: Xfest on July 28, 2006, 09:34:21 PM
so why change if it is a hit?
--------------------
ÈĻ Arsenèl
Track Mean Machine (Heavy)
Lane #1 Dirty Bomb (Med-Heavy)
Track Machine (Medium)
Brunswick Original Inferno (Light-Med)
Track Desert Heat (Light)
Brunswick Ambush (Spare)
I throw it all, just give me a ball, I'll throw it. =]
Edited on 7/28/2006 9:30 PM
Post by: Inferno_256 on July 28, 2006, 09:43:04 PM
--------------------
Brunswick kicks buttocks
Post by: sdbowler on July 28, 2006, 10:08:10 PM
--------------------
Brunswick
Post by: DON DRAPER on July 28, 2006, 10:10:39 PM
Post by: shelley on July 28, 2006, 10:53:15 PM
quote:
1. Will there be future releases in the Zone line using the modified asymmetrical Danger Zone core and newer Inferno coverstocks (Advance, Max, Octane), or is the Vapor the end of the line?
It took a while for the Strike Zone to come out compared to when the UI came out, so it's possible there may a while before another sanded solid Zone comes out to replace the SZ. I'd guess '07 before such a ball was released.
quote:
2. Will there be a solid sanded Octane ball at some point in the next 6 - 12 months as a Scorchin' replacement (or to stand on its own, whatever)?
Again, if they follow anything like the pattern for the Infernos in the past,...
quote:
3. The ability to do multi-colored particle balls has been touted about the new factory. Will we see such a ball next season? If so, are we talking high-end line, mid-end line, or...?
For the company that developed proactive/particle covers, they sure are shying away from them. I don't know if it was because of the shame of only being able to make single-color particles or if they don't feel the need for it (I disagree, particles have a place at nearly all points in an arsenal), but the next few months will probably tell a lot about that.
What I want to see is a ball with the swirl patterns that the Radical core pic has. Streaks going around the equator of the ball a la Jupiter.
quote:
4. Will there be a new core design in a Brunswick-branded ball this season?
Wouldn't be surprising. As great as the Inferno and Zone cores are, as well as the BVP Bell core, there are only so many ways you can put the same covers on them before they get stale. I agree with the release of the Wizard, but if the only updates they do to the BVP line are color refreshes, I'll be disappointed. New cores are always exciting. I'm sure they have something planned.
quote:
6. This is an honest question, not trying to p1ss anybody off...if I sand a Red Zone to the box finish of the Strike Zone, assuming all other factors being equal, will I see the same reaction as compared to a box Strike Zone?
A recent post by Bob (?) indicated that there would be slight differences.
SH
Post by: DP3 on July 28, 2006, 11:05:18 PM
--------------------
- DP3
Hoss Central Inc.
Respect the Game
Edited on 7/28/2006 11:00 PM
Post by: BrunsBob on July 29, 2006, 08:44:52 AM
I don't believe I said "shape" doesn't matter, only that we can create the same numbers without using multiple pieces. The shape does matter and a few responses hit it dead on about densities.
twoheadedboy,
All good questions, but you are right, we cannot divuldge our plans for future releases at this time. As for the tweaking of the Red Zone cover to match that of the Strike Zone, you should see a very similar reaction, but like we've said before, we feel the color difference will show a slight difference on the lanes.
To All,
I know it's a proven fact that every response creates new questions. As I have responded as much as I can about what we did this summer, there are numerous questions that pop up about where we go from here that I cannot comment on. Please do not see this lack of response as dodging or dancing around the questions. I don't know many businesses that would leak info that might either make their competition make a move or set our own selves up for being accused of disception if we failed to stick to that plan. As I do appreciate the interest and very sharp questions, I just hope you'll hang in there as we continue to impress you with our equipment.
Thanks All,
RoB LAW
--------------------
I'm gettin' old, I'm hurtin', but I've got Brunswick balls.......Color me competitive.