BallReviews
General Category => Coverstock Preparation => Topic started by: TheDude on June 29, 2003, 11:40:00 PM
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I keep hearing this word used to describe finishing levels on balls now, from Hammer and I think Ebonite.
What is this product? Is it a liquid or a solid material?
Is it similar to Brunswick Trizact technology? Are they in pads or sheets?
Simply someone tell me what the hell is this stuff? and why is it now being used instead of scotchbrite or wetsand paper? I just ordered a trizact kit for my proshop from our brunswick distributor and it's been on back order for a while now.
I'm also going to email ebonite/hammer and ask if they can provide detailed info on how it works.
Thanks
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Visionary bowler, I see the future!
Tim Thompson, Visionary Bowling Products Proshop staff For Canada.
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Looks like it is kind of scotchbrite with 180, 360, 500, 600
1000, 2000, 4000 grit level.
Check this link out : http://www.mirka.com/eng/prod/abralonm.shtm
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This question seems to be arising everywhere. In order not to confuse everyone, please see several entries under Ebonite (where it is a direct question) and under Hammer (where it is under the post, "Hammer Vicous Partical").
It seems to be plain silicon-carbide sandpaper on a foam backing.
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"Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
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This says they sell for 20 usD per piece!
ouch!! that's rather expensive. even if it last a long time.
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Visionary bowler, I see the future!
Tim Thompson, Visionary Bowling Products Proshop staff For Canada.
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For abralon :
Go to : http://www.woodworkerssupply.com
Then type "abralon" in the search.
Click on the more details link,
This will give you an explanation of the product.
Hope This Helps, drcjjr
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Dude,
When I was looking it up in Google, one of the websites was selling it for $3 per pad. I think it came 20 per box.
Even at $3, that seems expensive. Anyone here tried it yet? How long does it last?
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drcjjr,
Your link is bad. Try this: www.woodworkerssupply.com
Now I see where TheDude came up with the $20 price. That is for 5 pads.
This is where I saw the $3 price: http://www.toolpeddler.com/mirkaabrasives.htm
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So what's the deal? Does ebonite plan to release these pads? or create a new type of CAB system? cause i feel fine sticking to regular wetsand paper or scotchbrite.
I looked through ebonite's website and couldn't find anything refering to this except in the friction guide. I never saw a news release saying they had changed. Also it kept saying on the website that it is for wood and flat surfaces. Bowling balls are neither, and it's a bit expensive at 3 usDollars per piece or sheet or whatever it is coming in.
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Visionary bowler, I see the future!
Tim Thompson, Visionary Bowling Products Proshop staff For Canada.
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Actually the finer grits are used in the finishing process of fine furniture.
guess what you are sanding? urethane, Varnish, and other resins.
the concept of the PAds are like 3m's micro finish sand paper. the particles are of a controlled size so the scratch patterns produced are far more precise.
over kill for a ball? maybe, maybe not. they have more resources for testing so I would go with them on it. I would think this process is more expensive so maybe quality is there goal.
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Hammer or else!
brought to you by the bowling mafia
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From reading the writeup on the Abralon, it is designed to be best used wet. I guess that it is really a more job specific version of ScotchBrite, with the abrasive grain having a closer knit texture than ScotchBrite. Also, some of the ScotchBrite grits are silicon carbide (and some are aluminum oxide), but the Abralon seems to be geared at applications where uniformity of surface texture is more critical.
As for using it on bowling balls, it looks promising, especially if you want a ScotchBrite like surface, but in a finer surface than the white ScotchBrite can provide (since the Abralon also has a 2000 and 4000 grit available). It might be overkill on bowling balls, but at least you would know exactly what surface you have when you get through scuffing.
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quote:
As for using it on bowling balls, it looks promising, especially if you want a ScotchBrite like surface, but in a finer surface than the white ScotchBrite can provide (since the Abralon also has a 2000 and 4000 grit available). It might be overkill on bowling balls, but at least you would know exactly what surface you have when you get through scuffing.
Be very careful in your assumptioms, 10-in-the-pit and everyone.
If you look carefully at the details in some of the webpages that reference Abralon, you will see that the 2000 and 4000 grit are actually what are termed p-metric grits. These are NOT equivalent to the 800-1000-1200-1500 grits we know. There are tables (somewhere, in the technology pages) showing what these "P-metric" grits are equivalent to, in terms of what we use. I'll see if I can dig them up.
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"Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
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Try this
http://www.buffpolishgrind.com/techinfo/gritcomps.htm
It doesn't go all the way to 4000 but you should get the idea.
Dan.
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Go to http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00006_sb2.asp for a conversion table from US standard to P-scale.
Regards,
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jensm
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jensm and DanS,
Wonderful start. Thank you much!
Now we need to find the continuation of the charts from 1000 grit to 3000 grit or so.
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"Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
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I just had my first exposure to Abralon yesterday when I went to work in the shop. I am part-time and during the summer I only work one evening a week. We use the Abralon pads on our Haus machine. My first impression, along with the owner of the shop, is that they are excellent. I used the 360 grit to finish off a ball that had been plugged. After only 3-4 minutes on the Haus machine, the ball (an X-Factor Deuce) looked like it was brand new, right out of the box. We agreed, however, that the surface of the ball was probably a bit too aggressive after using the 360 grit, so we worked it up a bit.
Later, I was finishing off a Yellow Dot (yes, an actual Yellow Dot - 1981 vintage), which a bowler was going to use as a dry lane/spare ball. After cutting down the plug and sanding it, I put it on the 2000 grit pads, again for only 3-4 minutes. It also came out looking like a new ball. The surface was incredibly smooth, and I hit it with a little polish and it looked great.
I am really looking forward to trying out the 4000 grit pads. I'll probably hit my spare ball (White Dot) with them and polish it up.
Both the owner of the shop and I are quite enthused about the results we achieve using the Abralon pads. Of course, only time will tell how durable they will be. We are hoping for the best.
RW (THB)
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Found it!
http://www.alliedhightech.com/polishing/waterprfabr/
Abrasive grade comparison chart, shows all grades up to and including P4000.
Hope this is of use.
Dan.
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quote:
Found it!
http://www.alliedhightech.com/polishing/waterprfabr/
Abrasive grade comparison chart, shows all grades up to and including P4000.
Hope this is of use.
Dan.
Dan, you're a regular internet Demon. Can't thank you enough!!!
here's another:
http://www.mirka-usa.com/downloads/pdf_files/grit_chart.pdf
The interesting part is it seems their p-metric 180 is equivalent to our (USA, aka CAMI standards) 180, but their p-metric 4000 is equivalent to our 1200 grit.
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"Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
Edited on 7/4/2003 12:53 PM
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Charlest, thanks for catching the part about the p-metric abrasive grading on the Abralon pads. I completely missed seeing the p-metric note on there. Don't you just hate it when all of the abrasive manufacturers can't seem to standardize on a given abrasive scale???....it makes buying abrasives that much more confusing to the consumer, as if it wasn't confusing enough already. And 3M is just as bad about switching between grading scales, where they use standard grit numbers for ScotchBrite (if you can ever figure out exactly which ScotchBrite pad you have in your hand), and they use the micron rating for their Trizact.
I guess that using different grading systems is a way to sell more abrasive products, since most consumers don't know where to find the comparison charts.
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Here I come to add to the confusion. The last time the topic of abrasive scale conversions came up, a few other sites were listed. Here's one:
http://www.facetingmachines.com/grit-mesh-micron.shtml
You'll notice that the scale there does not match up with the scales in the links provided so far in this thread. I believe that the one in the link above is correct as far as it goes. It does not include "p-metric". I don't believe that "mesh" is the same as "grit". I don't know what "US CAMI" from the Mirka chart means. Is it the same as grit? At the same time that the discussion was going on before that provided me with the link above, there was another link to somewhere on the 3M site (I no longer have that link) that gave the following: 3 micron=1500 grit, 12 micron=750 grit, 26 micron=380 grit. Elsewhere on the 3M site, the following was given: 9 micron=1200 grit, 15 micron=600 grit, 20 micron=500 grit, 30 micron=400 grit, and 40 micron=320 grit. You'll notice that the two scales from 3M don't even make sense compared to each other. I wish I still had the 3M links, but I just wrote the info down when I looked at them, and I don't have the links anymore.
I don't have any idea what to believe. I have seen in several places in Ebonite literature that 15 micron=1200 grit, and I've been going by that, but that could easily be incorrect. This mess is unbelievable. I would really like to hear from somebody in the abrasives business who would be willing to give a complete and highly detailed explanation and comparison between all these scales, with the explanation including why all these discrepancies seem to exist between different companies' versions of these scales. I'd be willing to pay for this person's time.
Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Edited on 7/5/2003 5:31 PM
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Shiv, Is this one of the charts you saw previously?
http://international.3m.com/intl/CA/english/centres/mfg_industrial/abrasives/pdfs/GradeComparisonChart.pdf
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MI_2_AZ--
No, what I saw before was not that detailed. It included only the numbers that I quoted. I notice that the chart in the link you just gave even included a disclaimer at the top.
In reading this thread over more carefully since I first posted, I noticed that in this link:
http://www.buffpolishgrind.com/techinfo/gritcomps.htm
posted by DanS, that the 3M Scotchbrite colors don't match up with the grit levels that have come to be generally accepted in this forum.
This is really frustrating. It seems to me that the conversion between all of these scales ought to be as straight forward as the conversion between metric and SAE measurements, or Celsius to Fahrenheit. You don't see differences of opinion on those conversions.
Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
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Glad to be of service.
You all help me out so much with the bowling insruction.
Just trying to repay.
Dan.
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It readily appears that the more information we get about the grit grading, the more confusing the whole mess is getting. Surely SOMEONE out there in industry has the RIGHT information all in one spot!!! From what I'm seeing from clicking on the different links, not all of the grit data jives from one source to the next. Since 3M is so involved in abrasives of different types, you'd think that maybe they have the straight scoop, but I haven't been able to locate their comparison info as of yet. Of course, I have to admit that I haven't searched that hard yet though.
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da shiv,
Some comments:
- they are all "grit". The number is always a way to reference the number of pieces of what the material per unit of area. For CAMI, US rating, it is probably the number of piece of grit per square inch. Example: 60 grit has 60 pieces of silicon carbode grit per sq. in. 400 grit has 400 pieces.
- CAMI, I believe, is the US standard for sandpaper grit that we all grew up using and that we refer to as when we talk about wet/dry silicon carbide sandpaper.
- From the past few charts posted here, I can see that there is a "Micron" chart that Ebonite seems to use where you/they say 15 micron = 1200 grit. This grading is different from the "Micron" grading used for Trizact paper.
- I can't say that I know what "Mesh" grading is in reference.
- I believe, but cannot guarantee that "p-metric" is the standard European grading chart for sandpaper used there.
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"Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
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ttt for the da Shiv.
Edited on 12/5/2003 11:51 AM