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General Category => Coverstock Preparation => Topic started by: Xcessive_Evil on January 07, 2010, 11:05:42 AM

Title: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on January 07, 2010, 11:05:42 AM: The PBA patterns are skimping on oil. THS has a wall, all the while coverstocks are getting stronger and stronger. I was in league yesterday, and a guy on the other team was using a Seige. From what he says. it has as 30* 4.5 25* layout on it, and took it all the way down to 500.

I often heard him complaining "This ball is crap, it's supposed to hook." "My Rattler hooks more" etc, etc. I tried telling him that with the coverstock, layout, and surface that he is killing all the energy, and that it's leaving nothing in the back. He keeps using it, and shot I think 440 something with it(He averages 196 this year).

For me, 2000 is as dull as it gets. Why do some think we see enough oil to toss a snow tire?
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Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: charlest on January 07, 2010, 07:28:38 PM: Have to agree. Find myself using less surface and then less surface + polish, just to use medium oil balls. So sad.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: pate08 on January 07, 2010, 07:35:31 PM: I don't have one polished ball. Polish doesn't read early enough and it gives over/under. Something with a little more surface evens out the reaction, helps it read a little sooner, and is just more controllable all together. I usually just use 1000 and 2000. On a harder/fresh shot, more surface is preferable to combat the fresh back ends and even out the reaction.
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Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: themachine300 on January 07, 2010, 07:38:58 PM: I throw 1000 all the time, nothing much duller than that. i got a good amount of tilt so it helps me clear the fronts better
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Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: cheech on January 07, 2010, 07:42:31 PM: for a house shot i generally only have my benchmark with any type of surface and thats always been at 4000 then the rest is polished. on sport though (not just the PBA shots) anything goes
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HG:300x2(SR300 both)
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Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: icewall on January 07, 2010, 07:42:54 PM: depends on tilt.

for me 2000 is crazy strong as i have almost no tilt.
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tweener
350 revs
16 mph
low tilt
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on January 07, 2010, 07:47:12 PM: I know this is/should be based primarily on the bowlers style, but what he did imo is overkill. I really started thinking about this again when I was watching the Shark Championship on TV. For a pattern of that length and overall volume, it really didn't look like alot of surface was being used by any of the players. In fact, some of them seemed to be polished.
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www.youtube.com/track8401

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: charlest on January 07, 2010, 08:06:14 PM: quote:
depends on tilt.

And ball speed, of course.

quote:

for me 2000 is crazy strong as i have almost no tilt.
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tweener
350 revs
16 mph
low tilt

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: LaneHammer20 on January 07, 2010, 08:30:53 PM: quote:
depends on tilt.

for me 2000 is crazy strong as i have almost no tilt.
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tweener
350 revs
16 mph
low tilt

I am right there with you. I track high 5 3/4 by 1/2 up with low tilt as well these days. If I go below 2000 abralon it is burnout city. I prefer my equipment polished. My tilt has lowered quite a bit as of the last 6 months, along with my track moving up a 1/2 inch.

I can tuck my pinky and it helps my tilt go up, and allows me to play deeper better.
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What is sandbagging???
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: SleepOnIce on January 08, 2010, 10:17:31 AM: I use weaker stuff with surface (Bash at 1000 abralon right now) on most house shots. In my PBAX league I'm mostly using a strongish pearl with a 2000 surface on anything over 38 feet.
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BLARGH
Rob Stone Supporters of America!
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: FBM357 on January 08, 2010, 10:51:21 AM: quote:
quote:
depends on tilt.

And ball speed, of course.

quote:

for me 2000 is crazy strong as i have almost no tilt.
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tweener
350 revs
16 mph
low tilt

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Most definitely ... majority of my stuff is a) polished and b) 4000. Have a few pieces where surface is 1000-2000 (for league in another house with sport shot). My AMF Code @ 4000 polished is quite strong!!!
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: 67tbird on January 08, 2010, 11:19:26 AM: I know what you're saying! I bought a Motiv TR2 a while back, just to try them out... got a good deal on it, so I didn't really look at what it was made for or anything (stupid I know)... but when I got it, I didn't even think about throwing it out of box, it got some polish. Drilled pin about an inch above my ring finger with the CG kicked 20 degrees right, I ended up having to take it to 4000 abralon and polishing it just so I could use it on our house shot.
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: Oskuposer on January 08, 2010, 11:26:09 AM: Condition, condition, and surface. Using a dull ball on guardian is like running a marathon in the desert with a parka on and no water. Some houses generally work with rougher surfaces some with polished some with both some where outside works better and sometimes inside works better. It is all dependent on the variables used in your game, lane surface, pattern, that affects what you should do to your equipment.
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Kiall Hill
Visionary test staff
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: JohnP on January 08, 2010, 02:24:51 PM: Surface is a friend to players with low axis tilt (spinners). -- JohnP
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: dizzyfugu on January 12, 2010, 02:30:04 AM: quote:
Surface is a friend to players with low axis tilt (spinners). -- JohnP

Yup. Surface must always be seen in connection to the player''s style. A low tracker will definitively need more surface on the same condition than a high tracker, esp. on oilier lanes.

Being a high trcaker myself, my strongest recative for medium to medium-oily shots is a FMG at 1.500 grit. It still needs oil up front, and hooks a lot. I could probably not use it at all at 1.000 matte or even more surface!
Even my heavy oil ball, an NSÂ², is only at lightly sanded 1.500 grit - the ball builds up its traction through the high particle load and the early rolling setup. It needs the sheen surface to arrive in the mid lane "alive" at all!

But I agree that modern coverstock materials have become so aggressive that...
a) a fine grit already is enough to make a ball work properly that would have been truly matte a couple of years ago, and
b) this also affects the utility of polish - many modern polished balls are so jumpy or condition-specific (the Virtual Gravity seems to be such a case, the Radical Inferno another I remember) that using them is hit or miss. A fine sanded surface or rubbing compounds make them much more useable.
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DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany

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Edited on 1/12/2010 3:32 AM
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: Gunny on January 12, 2010, 07:14:22 AM: Had a long talk and session with the a few bowlers last night after league about
this.....

During league, a few bowlers asked what I was throwing, cause the ball looked
brand new with a super high polish. I told them it was the Bounty Hunter at
4000abralon and 2 coats of polish. I was playing around 12 with a slight belly.
They told me that I should dull it and the ball would roll smoother. That way
I wouldn't have to play so close to the ditch. I told them if they want to
learn something stay after league and I'll show them. Here's where the fun
began.

Now myself, I'm a high tracker, alot of revs with ball speed around 16mph. So,
during the session I asked them about the sanding of the Bounty Hunter, and
what grit it should be and how it would roll.(knowing it hooks already) Yes,
I played a little mind game with them. Well, needless to say they all agreed on
1000 to get the smooth roll and play my normal shot around 3rd arrow out to 8.

So, I told them I'll move 20 left of where I was playing in league, throwing the
same 4000/polished Bounty Hunter. They kinda chuckled. I proceeded and the
ball was swung out to 10 and came roaring back ripping the rack. They were
shocked that the ball hooked from there. Here's were the lesson came....

I told them that the consistent shot in this house is around 10-12. And in
order to play that shot, I take alot of hand out of the ball. So, I moved back
20 boards right, played 11 with a slight belly, and flushed all 10. They were
amazed again, and I tried to explain to them that the lanes are just one aspect
of the game and surface is another along with hand position. With me 90% of the
of the balls tend to be too aggressive/angular, even the week ones. Which tend
to be more angular because of the legnth they have.

So, I tell them that none of my balls are at factory surface because tweeking
them to what I need is the best choice, especially when the houses dont put down
any oil. Heck, my wife outhooks most of the men.

Well, I go to the bag and grab the other balls and proceed to stand in different
spots and throw different lines, manipulating the ball and having good success
finding the pocket. Explaining to them that watching ball reaction on the lane
will help deciding what can be done. And that sure, sometimes you can do it,
and sometimes you struggle. And its ok, as long as your open minded to learn,
cause you will get better.

Needless to say, I told them that the dulling process they advised though, not a
bad idea, wouldnt of helped me. And if they wanted to expand their game, learn
to manipulate the ball with your hand more. The covers are so strong nowadays,
that its those surface adjustments, and hand positions that play the biggest
part in ball reaction on the lane.
Title: Re: How much surface does one need nowadays
Post by: tc300 on January 12, 2010, 04:52:14 PM: i some times use a couple balls with low grits..(used 1000ab or 500ab pads) tames down the backend for me... i also use those pads lightly by hand.