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Author Topic: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?  (Read 8506 times)

J_w73

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Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« on: February 20, 2009, 06:52:29 AM »
I have been looking at all the oil extraction posts and reading articles about hot water baths and hook-again type extraction. Also reading about the plasticizer debate. Whether it is the ball losing plasticizer that creates the loss of hook... Or is it the plasticizer coming near the surface that makes the ball hook less.

Anyway.. got a new ball ( epic odyssey ).. the ball is pretty dull OOB.  Wanted to do a test.. put a heat gun on the ball and immediately the ball started getting shiny and an "oily" liquid substance started appearing on the heated part of the ball.  After I took the heat off of the ball the substance soaked back into the cover.  I am assuming this is the plasticizer.

Question is.. do we want this in the ball or not?   And if so, maybe too many hot water baths are not good if it is taking this out of the ball.  I know that plasticizers are used in the production to increase plasticity.  Does it only help the ball's structure during manufacturing and it isn't needed once the ball is formed and cured??

Would doing a water bath, dishwasher, or hook-again extraction on a brand new ball before it hits the lanes help or hurt the performance??
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180



Edited on 2/20/2009 4:08 PM

Edited on 2/20/2009 4:23 PM
375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

 

JohnP

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2009, 08:00:16 PM »
quote:
less than a year ago, it was difficult to get folks to acknowledge that 'reactive resin' just meant the ball was porous.
..so we've made progress


If you want to see just how porous reactive resin balls are, take a hammer to an old ball you don't care about and knock a chunk out of it, then look at the porosity in the resin.  Be careful, though, wear eye protection and heavy clothes so you won't get hurt.  --  JohnP

charlest

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2009, 08:12:28 PM »
quote:
quote:
less than a year ago, it was difficult to get folks to acknowledge that 'reactive resin' just meant the ball was porous.
..so we've made progress


If you want to see just how porous reactive resin balls are, take a hammer to an old ball you don't care about and knock a chunk out of it, then look at the porosity in the resin.  Be careful, though, wear eye protection and heavy clothes so you won't get hurt.  --  JohnP


I took a 3 lb sledge hammer to an old resin ball once. Only succeeded in knock a few tiny chips off it. Guess I forgot to eat my Wheaties that morning ...
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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J_w73

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2009, 08:23:31 PM »
I feel everything you are saying.
I'm trying to learn everyday about this sport, the technology and the business behind it.  My main goal is to learn.. or discover myself the one truth behind the layout and dynamics of a bowling ball.  There are many different methods but they are all leading to doing the same thing.. and there is one reason for what a bowling ball will do or try to do on the lane...
My other challenges are local bowling alleys that have no clue on how to run a bowling center let alone a business in general.
I could go on with a few dozen more beefs and pet peeves but you know where I'm coming from..
Maybe I'll start a thread about it..

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

J_w73

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2009, 08:32:52 PM »
quote:
Hey J_w,

It just dawned on me as to where you "might" get an answer to your question or possibly even more in depth.  I believe that a majority of manufacturers still buy their base covers from BASF and/or Bayer Corp.  You'll get a better detail of information seeing as this would be coming from the horses mouth so to speak.

The only thing I see though is that the information and formulas produced has to be proprietary and/or copyrighted.  Just thought I'd share bud...
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
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thanks for the info.. We actually use dispersants and plasticizers in the business that I am in.. We also have a relationship with BASF.  I might have to pick the brains of some of our lab guys to see what they can tell me about plasticizers..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

BrunsNick

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2009, 08:42:24 PM »
Paul from USBC did a test on what came out of a ball, and it was something like 99.992% lane oil. Might want to get purduepaul in this discussion.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
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golfnutFL

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2009, 09:06:49 PM »
Using which method?

quote:
Paul from USBC did a test on what came out of a ball, and it was something like 99.992% lane oil. Might want to get purduepaul in this discussion.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!


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Don't argue with an idiot people watching may not be able to tell the difference.

BrunsNick

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2009, 01:43:19 PM »
Revivor oven.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Nick Smith
Digital Media Manager - Brunswick Bowling
http://www.brunswickbowling.com
http://www.youtube.com/c/brunsnick

J_w73

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2009, 01:56:49 PM »
I have also been informed that certain manufactures have to "bake" any residual/excess plasticizer out of the ball after it is cured. Others have more advanced formulas that don't need to use as much plasticizer to create the same porousity.
It also sounds like a minute amount is needed in the ball as sort of a lubricant or moisturizer so the ball will not be brittle, crack , or so the cell structure doesn't collapse upon itself.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

DON DRAPER

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2009, 08:12:52 PM »
since walter ray has a b.s. in physics we better call him to explain some of these details zfennell !

J_w73

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2009, 10:56:39 PM »
quote:
since walter ray has a b.s. in physics we better call him to explain some of these details zfennell !


does he really..?? its kind of funny then how it seems like he has no idea about layouts and ball dynamics...
atleast that is the impression I got from some of his answers on his website..

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

DON DRAPER

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2009, 04:58:16 AM »
yes, walter ray williams, jr., has a bachelor of science degree in physics from cal-poly pomona. trust me, he knows as much about bowling balls as any ball rep. i think he'd like us to believe he doesn't know about bowling ball tech.

J_w73

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2009, 08:32:10 AM »
quote:
yes, walter ray williams, jr., has a bachelor of science degree in physics from cal-poly pomona. trust me, he knows as much about bowling balls as any ball rep. i think he'd like us to believe he doesn't know about bowling ball tech.


Why does he want to come off like that??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

J_w73

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2009, 08:33:57 AM »
quote:
I’ll be the last to say I fully understand the details described in either patent disclosure.
But the ‘English’ portion of the description, especially that relating to prior art, does answer a lot of questions.  Besides, I slept in a Holiday Inn last night and we all know Walter Ray sleeps in his van

Both patents describe the basic ingredients of urethane resins (polyols and isocyanites)
They both acknowledge the principle ingredient which turns regular urethane into what we know as ‘reactive urethane’ is a popular plasticizer, TXIB, manufactured by Eastman Chemical.  Both say the amount of plasticizer used is approximately 50% by weight compared to the baseline urethane components. Yikes!  The BASF patent is more specific about the function of the plasticizer, indicating that it is not intended to be part of the final cured compound. As a ‘non-reactive dilutant’ it is uniformly dispersed throughout the mixture while the urethane cures. The result is an array of porous voids in the urethane matrix.  Since the cure process takes place at elevated temps, once cooled, the plasticizer contracts, leaving additional volume for better oil absorption as a bowling ball.
    The BASF patent indicates that the TXIB, being a plasticizer, does impact the strength of the urethane matrix, causing much of the porous structure to collapse on itself during the cure.  Their intent was to alter the strength of the urethane formulation to create a more durable porous structure within the shell. Mechanical properties and oil absorption rates are measured for the samples produced for the patent application.

The Bayer patent is not as explicit about the function of the TXIB. They attempt to replace the TXIB with their own plasticizer formulation. Similar to BASF, the mechanical properties of suitable formulations are provided. However, no mention of any resulting porous structure or oil absorption rates is made.

FWIW
-bill



super recap bro!!!
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT

charlest

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2009, 01:06:59 PM »
quote:
quote:
yes, walter ray williams, jr., has a bachelor of science degree in physics from cal-poly pomona. trust me, he knows as much about bowling balls as any ball rep. i think he'd like us to believe he doesn't know about bowling ball tech.


Why does he want to come off like that??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180




Could it be because he regards the bowling as more important than the tool that he uses?
I don't know. I'm just guessing.


--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

J_w73

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Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2009, 05:57:15 PM »
a possibility... makes sense .. but there isn't a way to prove it either way..


--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180



Edited on 2/25/2009 6:57 PM
375 RPM, 17-18 MPH, 45+ DEG AXIS ROTATION, 17 DEG TILT