Post by: J_w73 on February 20, 2009, 06:52:29 AM
Anyway.. got a new ball ( epic odyssey ).. the ball is pretty dull OOB. Wanted to do a test.. put a heat gun on the ball and immediately the ball started getting shiny and an "oily" liquid substance started appearing on the heated part of the ball. After I took the heat off of the ball the substance soaked back into the cover. I am assuming this is the plasticizer.
Question is.. do we want this in the ball or not? And if so, maybe too many hot water baths are not good if it is taking this out of the ball. I know that plasticizers are used in the production to increase plasticity. Does it only help the ball's structure during manufacturing and it isn't needed once the ball is formed and cured??
Would doing a water bath, dishwasher, or hook-again extraction on a brand new ball before it hits the lanes help or hurt the performance??
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 2/20/2009 4:08 PM
Edited on 2/20/2009 4:23 PM
Post by: DON DRAPER on February 20, 2009, 03:45:42 PM
Post by: on February 20, 2009, 04:52:32 PM
I have also learned that today's lane conditioners contain some plasticizers in them, which would explain how tests on extracted lane oil (after ball use) show traces of plasticizer in addition to the oil.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
Post by: 86camaroman on February 20, 2009, 05:03:18 PM
Post by: charlest on February 22, 2009, 05:10:19 PM
This is why things like heat guns and ovens (much hotter than 150 degrees) are not appropriate, as far as I have learned, for removing oil from balls. Also when water heaters are set too high, above 150 degrees, it is also bad for balls.
The core and the filler and the coverstock are 3 different materials and all have different expansion coefficients. That is, they expand and contract at different rates. This difference in expansion rates is what CAN result is cracked balls. Also car trunks in southern climates in the South where the sun beats very strongly can have a similar effect.
So the Revivor and Rejuvenator machines which keep the temperature at or below 140 degrees is one of the safest and more thorough ways of doing oil extractions.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: J_w73 on February 22, 2009, 06:02:33 PM
Heat guns can generate temperatures well above 150 degrees which is the critical point of our coverstock. What happens is any temperature over 130% can de-stabilize the matrix structure of the coverstock and pull the additives out of the cover. This will, in turn, not only weaken the structure due to the missing links in the coverstock, but also cause the ball to lose elasticity. This will cause the surface of the ball to have a smaller footprint as well such the surface is no longer as elastic. Of course, the smaller the print, the less friction and the less hook the ball will have over-all. Finally, the lose of elasticity means the ball will be more prone to tracking, breaking, and cracking. Hence, our warranty is void if the ball has been baked because it is now not only less reactive, but much more likely to breaking.
This sounds like what ever is in the ball is supposed to stay there and removing it will make the ball lose its elasticity..and also make the ball brittle.
I was along the same thinking as you zfennel that it was just an additive that was used in the forming/ curing process to create the pores and cell structure in the coverstock.... and that it wasn't needed and it was removed it would allow more room for oil...
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 2/22/2009 8:44 PM
Post by: tenpinspro on February 22, 2009, 08:09:31 PM
I've had this happen many times with different balls. I sometimes use a blow dryer on thumb sleeves (to get them softer for easier cutting) and I get all types of "new" balls to sweat. Figured it was plasticizer and/or some liquid that helped bond a ball or maintain its elasticity.
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion
Post by: J_w73 on February 23, 2009, 10:49:15 AM
Here is another response from Rotogrip.
Here is a great definition from Wikipedia…. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer
Plasticizers for plastics are additives, most commonly phthalates, that give hard plastics like PVC the desired flexibility and durability. They are often based on esters of polycarboxylic acids with linear or branched aliphatic alcohols of moderate chain length. Plasticizers work by embedding themselves between the chains of polymers, spacing them apart (increasing of the "free volume"), and thus significantly lowering the glass transition temperature for the plastic and making it softer.
From our research, what you are seeing could be one of two things: un-bonded polymer chains because the mix was perfectly homogenous a bi-product when the chemicals were mixed and hardened or destabilized additives (plasticizer by a loose definition). Remember, in order to create unique reactive urethane compounds, additives have be added to create the porous surface of the ball. Some of these additives have been designed to ‘bake’ off of the ball during production (Ebonite hence plasticizer theory) or perfectly bond within the coverstock to create strength and porosity. I’d go into greater detail, but most of the information is proprietary about our coverstock technology.
To safely de-oil the ball, all you need to do is soak it in warm water. Temperatures around 120 – 130 are perfect. If you go above this temperature, you can release un-bonded additives, bi-products, or even pull fully bonded additives from the coverstock.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: tenpinspro on February 23, 2009, 11:44:01 AM
In their findings, it was not oil directly that reduced the the performance of a ball but the fact that when oil absorption occurred, plasticizer would rise to the top of the oil because they were composed of lighter molecules in comparison. When plasticizer hit the surface of a ball, that would glaze up on the surface and that's what caused a decrease in reaction.
The suggested method to correct this was to lightly remove (sanding) the glaze by approximately 2 grits from whatever the ball grit was at and then soak in hot water to remove the oil. So from my understanding of this, some plasticizer would be removed occasionally dependent upon the bowlers use or necessity to perform this task.
I believe this subject was written in their magazine "Pro Shop Insider" in the Summer and Fall edition of 2007. Check with your local shop to see if they have them (you'll see me on the cover of Fall 07' as well...figjam off).
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion
Edited on 2/23/2009 12:46 PM
Post by: J_w73 on February 23, 2009, 12:26:27 PM
Ebonite does a pretty decent write up on the subject in their hook-again promo material. It sounds plausible and accurate but I guess it all comes down to who you believe.. Some people will say ebonites angle on plasticizer is just a marketing ploy to sell their hook-again oil extraction products.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on February 23, 2009, 01:45:23 PM
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on February 23, 2009, 03:02:23 PM
quote:
not in so many words...
but they all acknowledge the need for some type of coverstock maintenance after extended use.
hot water bath
rejuvinator
revivor
hook again.
each of the manufactures has endorced the use of one or more of the above list.
and none of the processes can tell the difference between oil or plasticizer or beer.
if it comes out in any of "approved" methods is there a return path for any 'non-approved' compounds that get extracted?
i dont think so.
My only attempt at sounding reasonable would be to add that all balls appear to work just fine OOB, regardless of the presence of any liquid when you apply heat. The balls surface needs to be porous enough to absorb lane oil, one shot to the next. If that happens, why go looking for trouble?
once the reaction starts to fade, use your best judgement and do what you can.
nothing to lose at this point, unless you have your heart set on a brand new super soaker.
-bill
I'll put this out there so I can atleast say I had the idea when it happens...
I understand the part about, "why go looking for trouble"
but what if that excess "stuff" being removed allows for more room for oil in the coverstock and the ball needs less maintanence? or is more aggressive from the start?
Might be a great marketing idea for a company to add that extra step to their process and then they can bill their balls as needing less maintenance and being able to handle more games before any sign of fading performance
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on February 23, 2009, 03:47:05 PM
quote:
no need to appologise for your questions.
my advanced age and poor typing skills make my responses a bit abrupt.
I was refering to extended discussions Charlest and I have had on this topic.
If you can get the "longterm" search function to work you can see the places we've been.
less than a year ago, it was difficult to get folks to acknowledge that 'reactive resin' just meant the ball was porous.
..so we've made progress
it certainly sound logical that more internal volume will allow for more total absorbtion.
its not clear how the rate of absorbtion would be effected.
-bill
It sounds like we have similar frustrations.. reactive resin has been around almost 20 years and people are just now understanding what it is..
things like this frustrate me as well.
Seems in the last 5 years Pin to PAP is finally being accepted as what determines track flare,not cause the pin is next to your ring finger There is still alot of work to be done cause I bet probably less than 50% of the proshops in my area use pin to PAP when laying out a ball. And if you go in there and bring it up they will just go along with what you are saying while you can tell that they either have no idea what you are saying or don't buy into the idea of it.
Seems like if you ever bring up anything that is challenging or different to the way things are done everyone runs the other way or hides. I know I can be annoying, long winded, and argumentative at points but I think I have put some decently thought provoking posts on here that have a ton of views and hardly any responses. Only people like you and charlest seem to really care what is really going on.
and whoever puts the +1 about my annoying and long winded comment.. I applaud your sense of humor : )
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: tenpinspro on February 23, 2009, 05:04:00 PM
It just dawned on me as to where you "might" get an answer to your question or possibly even more in depth. I believe that a majority of manufacturers still buy their base covers from BASF and/or Bayer Corp. You'll get a better detail of information seeing as this would be coming from the horses mouth so to speak.
The only thing I see though is that the information and formulas produced has to be proprietary and/or copyrighted. Just thought I'd share bud...
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Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion
Post by: charlest on February 23, 2009, 05:38:01 PM
quote:
Only people like you and charlest seem to really care what is really going on.
Thanks for the compliment. My war to get some facts about such things across to the "people" seems to fall on deaf (or ego-sensitve) ears about 90% of the time.
Look at this thread: "Mega Friction = Particle???"
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=229073&ForumID=1&CategoryID=2
One of the theories I try to get across (ok, sometimes I do get preachy) is that the ball's construction makes little ultimate difference. It is its basic designed-in ball reaction that makes THE difference to the bowler. This guy tried to say he wants to buy the Mega-Friction, a high load particle ball, but won't because he has not had positive experiences with particle balls. I gave him a brief and slightly caustic: "Buy a ball reaction, not a ball." routine.
He got really testy about it and told me to shut up and go away. Now Rick (tenpinspro) and others explain in detail about particle balls being anything you need them to be. He sees ball videos and listens to others' experiences, and NOW, NOW, he wants to buy or is leaning more towards the Mega-Friction (MF, for short
). I want to tell him off, Big Time, but it's just not worth the grief and aggravation. Now that someone had lead him by the nose, now he is inclined to believe what I said orginally. But this whole topic has been rehashed dozens of times int he past and will be done again and again, for people who refuse to listen and to learn.
Sigh ...
I understand where you're coming from about the stuff oozing from balls. I don't think we'll ever get a straight answer we can all live with. Sometimes, we just have to let go, accept what we have and look for new answers to other questions. Ball baths, Revivior, CPR, Hook Again, Diswashers, all seem to help alleviate the symptoms, whatever the cause actually is.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 2/23/2009 6:40 PM
Post by: JohnP on February 23, 2009, 08:00:16 PM
quote:
less than a year ago, it was difficult to get folks to acknowledge that 'reactive resin' just meant the ball was porous.
..so we've made progress
If you want to see just how porous reactive resin balls are, take a hammer to an old ball you don't care about and knock a chunk out of it, then look at the porosity in the resin. Be careful, though, wear eye protection and heavy clothes so you won't get hurt. -- JohnP
Post by: charlest on February 23, 2009, 08:12:28 PM
quote:quote:
less than a year ago, it was difficult to get folks to acknowledge that 'reactive resin' just meant the ball was porous.
..so we've made progress
If you want to see just how porous reactive resin balls are, take a hammer to an old ball you don't care about and knock a chunk out of it, then look at the porosity in the resin. Be careful, though, wear eye protection and heavy clothes so you won't get hurt. -- JohnP
I took a 3 lb sledge hammer to an old resin ball once. Only succeeded in knock a few tiny chips off it. Guess I forgot to eat my Wheaties that morning ...
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: J_w73 on February 23, 2009, 08:23:31 PM
I'm trying to learn everyday about this sport, the technology and the business behind it. My main goal is to learn.. or discover myself the one truth behind the layout and dynamics of a bowling ball. There are many different methods but they are all leading to doing the same thing.. and there is one reason for what a bowling ball will do or try to do on the lane...
My other challenges are local bowling alleys that have no clue on how to run a bowling center let alone a business in general.
I could go on with a few dozen more beefs and pet peeves but you know where I'm coming from..
Maybe I'll start a thread about it..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on February 23, 2009, 08:32:52 PM
quote:
Hey J_w,
It just dawned on me as to where you "might" get an answer to your question or possibly even more in depth. I believe that a majority of manufacturers still buy their base covers from BASF and/or Bayer Corp. You'll get a better detail of information seeing as this would be coming from the horses mouth so to speak.
The only thing I see though is that the information and formulas produced has to be proprietary and/or copyrighted. Just thought I'd share bud...
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion
thanks for the info.. We actually use dispersants and plasticizers in the business that I am in.. We also have a relationship with BASF. I might have to pick the brains of some of our lab guys to see what they can tell me about plasticizers..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: BrunsNick on February 23, 2009, 08:42:24 PM
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: golfnutFL on February 23, 2009, 09:06:49 PM
quote:
Paul from USBC did a test on what came out of a ball, and it was something like 99.992% lane oil. Might want to get purduepaul in this discussion.
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
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Don't argue with an idiot people watching may not be able to tell the difference.
Post by: BrunsNick on February 24, 2009, 01:43:19 PM
--------------------
Nick Smith ... A.K.A. BrunsNick
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-09
http://www.BrunsNick.com
http://www.AskTheBowler.com
http://www.BigBapparel.com
Friends don't let friends drink the Kool-Aid!
Post by: J_w73 on February 24, 2009, 01:56:49 PM
It also sounds like a minute amount is needed in the ball as sort of a lubricant or moisturizer so the ball will not be brittle, crack , or so the cell structure doesn't collapse upon itself.
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: DON DRAPER on February 24, 2009, 08:12:52 PM
Post by: J_w73 on February 24, 2009, 10:56:39 PM
quote:
since walter ray has a b.s. in physics we better call him to explain some of these details zfennell !
does he really..?? its kind of funny then how it seems like he has no idea about layouts and ball dynamics...
atleast that is the impression I got from some of his answers on his website..
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: DON DRAPER on February 25, 2009, 04:58:16 AM
Post by: J_w73 on February 25, 2009, 08:32:10 AM
quote:
yes, walter ray williams, jr., has a bachelor of science degree in physics from cal-poly pomona. trust me, he knows as much about bowling balls as any ball rep. i think he'd like us to believe he doesn't know about bowling ball tech.
Why does he want to come off like that??
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: J_w73 on February 25, 2009, 08:33:57 AM
quote:
I’ll be the last to say I fully understand the details described in either patent disclosure.
But the ‘English’ portion of the description, especially that relating to prior art, does answer a lot of questions. Besides, I slept in a Holiday Inn last night and we all know Walter Ray sleeps in his van
Both patents describe the basic ingredients of urethane resins (polyols and isocyanites)
They both acknowledge the principle ingredient which turns regular urethane into what we know as ‘reactive urethane’ is a popular plasticizer, TXIB, manufactured by Eastman Chemical. Both say the amount of plasticizer used is approximately 50% by weight compared to the baseline urethane components. Yikes! The BASF patent is more specific about the function of the plasticizer, indicating that it is not intended to be part of the final cured compound. As a ‘non-reactive dilutant’ it is uniformly dispersed throughout the mixture while the urethane cures. The result is an array of porous voids in the urethane matrix. Since the cure process takes place at elevated temps, once cooled, the plasticizer contracts, leaving additional volume for better oil absorption as a bowling ball.
The BASF patent indicates that the TXIB, being a plasticizer, does impact the strength of the urethane matrix, causing much of the porous structure to collapse on itself during the cure. Their intent was to alter the strength of the urethane formulation to create a more durable porous structure within the shell. Mechanical properties and oil absorption rates are measured for the samples produced for the patent application.
The Bayer patent is not as explicit about the function of the TXIB. They attempt to replace the TXIB with their own plasticizer formulation. Similar to BASF, the mechanical properties of suitable formulations are provided. However, no mention of any resulting porous structure or oil absorption rates is made.
FWIW
-bill
super recap bro!!!
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Post by: charlest on February 25, 2009, 01:06:59 PM
quote:quote:
yes, walter ray williams, jr., has a bachelor of science degree in physics from cal-poly pomona. trust me, he knows as much about bowling balls as any ball rep. i think he'd like us to believe he doesn't know about bowling ball tech.
Why does he want to come off like that??
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Could it be because he regards the bowling as more important than the tool that he uses?
I don't know. I'm just guessing.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: J_w73 on February 25, 2009, 05:57:15 PM
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180
Edited on 2/25/2009 6:57 PM
Post by: J_w73 on February 26, 2009, 10:31:41 AM
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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180