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Author Topic: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon  (Read 36152 times)

NewInBox

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Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« on: April 09, 2009, 06:57:29 AM »
Just thought I would pass this on. I asked Roto-Grip whether they recommended Abralon over Scotch-brite and this is the answer I got:

They work, but not as effectively as abralon. For our official stance on surface alterations I will include a short essay I’ve written on the subject…

 

Thank you for contacting us with your concern. As far as ball reaction is concerned, we have several recommendations to maintain ball performance and life, but the primary area of concern is with the surface topography of the ball. As a quick over-view, surface topography in the bowling industry has been measured with specific ‘Ra’ and ‘Rs’ standards. These values directly relate to how aggressive the coverstock is and how much friction the coverstock can generate. The Ra value measures the standard deviations above or below the surface of the ball. For example, a series of high peaks and low valleys would be measured with an extremely high Ra value. Likewise, the Great Plains with a relatively smooth landscape and rolling hills would have a low Ra value. Rs isn’t as important, but by definition is the average distance between each individual peaks.

 

The reason these numbers are important is because of the correlation between ball reaction and high Ra and Rs values. Essentially, the greater the Ra and Rs number, the more friction the coverstock can generate. The more friction the coverstock can generate, the greater hook potential the ball will have. What happens when a ball dies is the coverstock has lost the surface deviations originally found on the ball from the out of box finish. These deviations (high Ra and Rs numbers) are created in our finishing and rounding process by creating deep grooves, cuts, and scars on the surface of ball. Later, when the ball is finished, these rough surface deviations are smoothed and ‘polished’ but they aren’t completely removed. If you were to then examine the coverstock on a micron level, the steep peaks and valleys would still be on the surface of the ball, but they would be rounded. This creates the type of ball motion where the ball will still skid through the heads and midlanes cleanly, but still have a tremendous amount of friction generation capabilities as the ball enters the buff or exits the pattern.

 

However, as the ball encounters normal use, these peaks slowly flatten and the valleys collapse. If measured after normal use, the once high Ra and Rs numbers would be much lower than the previous out of box finish. Hence, the ball slowly loses ball reaction with each use. Cleaning the surface will help keep the ball reaction consistent and also break down lane oil, but it isn’t capable of restoring original out of box Ra and Rs values. Luckily, our research has found a fairly simple method to restore the out of box finish.

 

In order to restore these numbers, abralon pads are recommended for virtually every ball in our current or past production line. The easiest and fastest way to refinish the ball is to use a 360 grit abralon pad on the ball. If the ball is being finished by machine, 60 seconds is usually sufficient whereas other methods may take longer. The whole idea is to thoroughly, cut, scar and groove the surface of the ball with the 360 grit pad. Before finishing the 360 grit, make sure the entire surface of the ball has been evenly cut. If it is done by hand or by a ball spinner, a cross-hatch finish is recommended. For the next stage, very lightly sand the surface with a 500 grit abralon pad. This will lower the Ra and Rs values slightly, but it isn’t going to completely destroy the surface deviations created from the previous stage.

 

After the ball has been lightly sanded with 500 grit abralon, please skip directly to the original out of box finish. For example a 4000 grit finish, no polish would require using a 360 grit abralon pad, then light application of a 500 abralon pad finally, skip the 1000 and 2000 stages and go directly to the 4000 finish. The 360 and 500 grit abralon pads will reproduce the original deep grooves and cuts from the factory rounding and finishing process setting the foundation for the final finish. Then, by skipping directly to the 4000 grit abralon stage, the surface will be smoothed and ‘polished’ without destroying the surface deviations. This effectively leaves the surface with the high peaks and deep valleys, but they aren’t as sharp or jagged. This should restore the original ball reaction allowing the ball to skid on oil, read the lighter buff areas of the pattern and still have amazing recovery potential on the backend.

 

For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls. The trick to the polish application is to use less polish and very light pressure. Step 2 Finishing Compound has a resurfacing medium in it that sands the ball while it is being polished over-application of the compound will effectively destroy the same surface deviations that originally gave the ball it’s strong out of box finish.

 

The key to restoring any finish is deeply cutting the ball with the fresh 360 grit abralon pad and then very lightly applying a 500 grit pad. The same is true of the final step as well. Over-application of the 1000, 2000, or 4000 grit pads can destroy the surface deviations created by the 360 and 500 steps weakening the over-all ball reaction.

 

Hopefully, if the sanding process has been repeated successfully, the end results will yield a ball with nearly the exact same Ra and Rs values originally found on the out of box finish restoring life back into the ball.
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Edited on 4/9/2009 2:58 PM

 

NewInBox

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2009, 10:31:58 AM »
I definitely thought this was something everyone would want to know. I know I have used scotch-brite a lot. I even have used it on my Rogue. Just a quick scuffing by hand since I don't have a ball spinner. But I think I am going to take it to my pro-shop and have it taken to a 2000 Abralon so I am not altering the surface myself and chancing any mistakes or messing up the surface. I may even have the Faball taken to a 1500 polished and see if it can become my drylane ball again.
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Nor Cal Bowler

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2009, 12:04:45 PM »
quote:
ok just did it to my hyroad and virtual that I got used so we'll see how it works!
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Ok I threw them last night and liked them both. The virtual looked like it did out of box. I think all companies do a varient of this. I mean look how much of a matte finish on ebonite's equipment. No way did they go through all the steps to accomplish that finish on let's say a Black Widow solid.
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Nor Cal Bowler

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2009, 12:55:13 PM »
quote:
I guess this is the bowling ball equivalent of
snow tires vs racing slicks.
As much smmoth surface as possible with grooves deep enough to displace the oil/water/snow.

the rubber still needs to be in contact with the road
when its time to turn the corner.



its also very similar to Brunswick's official recipe for restoring their Rough Buff surfaced balls



It would be nice if companies would be more open on finishing of their product. I know with Visionary they go from 600 grit to remove the excess putty they use to fill in the logos then they go right to the finish of the ball. For example the Gladiator Solid is at 2000 abralon. It goes from 600 grit right to 2000 abralon with nothing else going inbetween.
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ccrider

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2009, 01:17:00 PM »
This explains much. I beleive Track uses a very similar process on the Uprising to get it to 4000 finish. When I took my Uprising from 1000 to 2000 and then 4000, it skated and was nowhere near factory reaction.

I wonder what other secrets are out there that we do not know about, or are making false assumptions about.

CC
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NewInBox

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2009, 02:30:46 PM »
quote:
overall an excellant bit of info.

However, w/o wishing to beat a dead horse, i like to repeat my question?

In what manner do you believe this is a comparison between Abralon and Skotch-Brite?


Well Z I suppose it is not exactly a comparison. I asked the Question of Roto-Grip and got the above reply. While it was not an exact answer to my question I found it very useful information, my take on their implied intent of the response is, Abralon is a better finisher than Scotch-Brite. Not my opinion but I take it as their recommendation.
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Oldskool2

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2009, 05:01:19 AM »
Interesting, but also a little confusing. I always asked myself how a ball at 4000 Abralon could have a reaction like that. When I take it to 4000 it just skates too long. that is why I finish balls like this rougher than out of box to get near the original reaction.

I never really understood why a ball couldn't be resurfaced at the box 4000 without losing performance, even after moderate use. I just blamed it at the coverstock losing it's "edge". Now I know why.

I think this is info that most pro-shop owners didn't even know and I think that is a bad thing. We "all" used the procedure by going up step by step and now this appears to be wrong on some of the equipment.

The way how "we" resurface has been discussed a lot on here, but never someone from a ball company jumped in and told us this. Not a good thing either.

Even on the sheet that comes with the ball, Storm says you have to work up to 600 grit(U.S.) before Step #2. 600 grit U.S. is approx. 1000 Abralon. Now they state this:For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls..

Maybe it's different for Storm compared to RG, but I find that hard to believe.

Thanks for sharing this info and for doing what the companies should have done. It's not like giving away the formula for the resin.

All the best.


charlest

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2009, 09:54:29 AM »
Oldskool2,

My feelings EXACTLY!
plus the finish on balls like the Rogue Cell and the Virtual Gravily should not be listed as "4000 grit Abralon". That is so misleading as to be lying.
Small wonder so many people feel confused, almost betrayed when they re-finish such balls and the reaction is nowhere near what it was out-of-the-box.
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Edited on 4/11/2009 9:54 AM
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

charlest

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2009, 09:58:20 AM »
quote:
It would be nice if companies would be more open on finishing of their product. I know with Visionary they go from 600 grit to remove the excess putty they use to fill in the logos then they go right to the finish of the ball. For example the Gladiator Solid is at 2000 abralon. It goes from 600 grit right to 2000 abralon with nothing else going inbetween.
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NorCal,

Your comparison is not appropriate. 600 grit US, the green pad, is roughly 1200 grit FEPA or P1200 grit. 2000 Abralon is P2000 grit. Going from P1200 to P2000 is normal. Usually we go from 1000 Abralon to a 2000 Abralon pad, which is a bigger jump.

This is extremely different from going from 500 Abralon to 4000 abralon. That is a huge jump.
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SKIDSNAP

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2009, 10:22:56 AM »
It is not misleading.... it is in fact the final applied surface... how is that misleading?

Just because convention  was that you progressed up the surface chain to finish at 4000 doesn't mean that was the processed being used.  How about the up the surface progression chain being misleading?

I have often stopped at 800 before applying polish.  Or am I wrong and I should have gone all the way to 4000 before applying polish?  Guess what they all work in context!!!!

Raven829

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2009, 10:45:12 AM »
quote:
It is not misleading.... it is in fact the final applied surface... how is that misleading?

Just because convention  was that you progressed up the surface chain to finish at 4000 doesn't mean that was the processed being used.  How about the up the surface progression chain being misleading?

I have often stopped at 800 before applying polish.  Or am I wrong and I should have gone all the way to 4000 before applying polish?  Guess what they all work in context!!!!


You're completely missing the point.  It is misleading because 4000 Abralon after stepping up with all the sequential pads is TOTALLY different than 4000 Abralon after a light 500 Abralon.  These manufacturers knew that most pro shops followed all the steps in between yet chose to say nothing.  

Why can't all the ball makers just come out and give the information that was in the OP's post?  When a home user or pro shop is trying to achieve that OOB reaction, wouldn't you agree that it is essential to know how the manufacturer got it themselves?  I can throw 4000 on top of anything, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to get to OOB of a particular ball that is listed as finished at 4000.  We need the manufacturers to come clean on this information.

Don

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Edited on 4/11/2009 10:46 AM
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charlest

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2009, 12:38:12 PM »
quote:
It is not misleading.... it is in fact the final applied surface... how is that misleading?
[/quote

Because it is NOT the final surface. 4000 grit Abralon sandings cannot smooth out the 500 grit sanding lines. Therefore the surface is NOT at 4000 grit Abralon.

{quote]
Just because convention  was that you progressed up the surface chain to finish at 4000 doesn't mean that was the processed being used.  How about the up the surface progression chain being misleading?



Because the 500 grit sanding lines are still there and have not been smoothed out. Saying the surface is 4000 grit Abralon is false, becaue it is not at P4000 grit.

quote:

I have often stopped at 800 before applying polish.  Or am I wrong and I should have gone all the way to 4000 before applying polish?  Guess what they all work in context!!!!


As the final owner of the ball, you can do whatever you like to achieve the ball reaction you need/want. Telling us the final surface is P4000 grit is lying if it is not the real surface, which, in truth, is a new blending of P500 and P4000 grit.

As Oldskool2 said, doing the ball this way is not good or bad. It is quite interesting to me. NOT telling us what they did (until now) is bad. It's like false advertising. Saying the surface is 4000 grit Abralon says that all previous sanding lines have been smoothed out using the appropriate abrasive until the last one used is 4000 grit Abralon.

It is not that this is the way it has always been done. This is a standardized preocedure for sanding anything.

Change is good. I have no problem with it, for a good purpose. I think this new way is very inventive. But tell us the truth.
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Edited on 4/11/2009 12:40 PM
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

rvmark

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2009, 12:48:35 PM »
quote:
quote:
It is not misleading.... it is in fact the final applied surface... how is that misleading?
[/quote

Because it is NOT the final surface. 4000 grit Abralon sandings cannot smooth out the 500 grit sanding lines. Therefore the surface is NOT at 4000 grit Abralon.

{quote]
Just because convention  was that you progressed up the surface chain to finish at 4000 doesn't mean that was the processed being used.  How about the up the surface progression chain being misleading?



+1

Mark

Because the 500 grit sanding lines are still there and have not been smoothed out. Saying the surface is 4000 grit Abralon is false, becaue it is not at P4000 grit.

quote:

I have often stopped at 800 before applying polish.  Or am I wrong and I should have gone all the way to 4000 before applying polish?  Guess what they all work in context!!!!


As the final owner of the ball, you can do whatever you like to achieve the ball reaction you need/want. Telling us the final surface is P4000 grit is lying if it is not the real surface, which, in truth, is a new blending of P500 and P4000 grit.

As Oldskool2 said, doing the ball this way is not good or bad. It is quite interesting to me. NOT telling us what they did (until now) is bad. It's like false advertising. Saying the surface is 4000 grit Abralon says that all previous sanding lines have been smoothed out using the appropriate abrasive until the last one used is 4000 grit Abralon.

It is not that this is the way it has always been done. This is a standardized preocedure for sanding anything.

Change is good. I have no problem with it, for a good purpose. I think this new way is very inventive. But tell us the truth.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Edited on 4/11/2009 12:40 PM

icewall

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2009, 02:53:59 PM »
thank you so much for this information. ive been SO puzzled why when i take my equipment to 4000 grit ab. my balls just skid and skid. yet hitting them with say grey scotchbrite or 2000 grit plus polish gives me much better traction! dull hooks less then polished? NOW i see why my 4000 grit resurface jobs make a ball appear polished (almost)

i look forward to trying this out on my brothers black widow.

makes sense why (as already stated) ebonites 4000 grit OOB surface seems so dull compared to a step up each grit to 4000.

you learn something new everyday!
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lefty50

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2009, 06:32:28 PM »
Wow, look how many of us have said "now I know why 4000 doesn't work for me". That is such a clear indication of why it's misleading to say 4000. Charlest and the others are right.

And I also totally agree that they aren't giving away the formula, why in heaven's name would they mislead so badly like it was a state secret? Unreal. Clearly this changes my approach to sanding....
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vilecanards

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2009, 07:10:51 PM »
Add me to the list of folks that think this is totally different than the way I perceived a 4000 abralon surface.  I've had a spinner for over a year, and have had dozens of balls on there getting either tweaked or re-surfaced.  I have also had mostly poor results at achieving a NIB 4000 reaction.  I will try this new method for other finishing-grit levels like 2000 also.  I read this thread early yesterday, pondered over the information, and realize that this now makes a lot of sense.
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Edited on 4/11/2009 7:12 PM