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Author Topic: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon  (Read 36149 times)

NewInBox

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Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« on: April 09, 2009, 06:57:29 AM »
Just thought I would pass this on. I asked Roto-Grip whether they recommended Abralon over Scotch-brite and this is the answer I got:

They work, but not as effectively as abralon. For our official stance on surface alterations I will include a short essay I’ve written on the subject…

 

Thank you for contacting us with your concern. As far as ball reaction is concerned, we have several recommendations to maintain ball performance and life, but the primary area of concern is with the surface topography of the ball. As a quick over-view, surface topography in the bowling industry has been measured with specific ‘Ra’ and ‘Rs’ standards. These values directly relate to how aggressive the coverstock is and how much friction the coverstock can generate. The Ra value measures the standard deviations above or below the surface of the ball. For example, a series of high peaks and low valleys would be measured with an extremely high Ra value. Likewise, the Great Plains with a relatively smooth landscape and rolling hills would have a low Ra value. Rs isn’t as important, but by definition is the average distance between each individual peaks.

 

The reason these numbers are important is because of the correlation between ball reaction and high Ra and Rs values. Essentially, the greater the Ra and Rs number, the more friction the coverstock can generate. The more friction the coverstock can generate, the greater hook potential the ball will have. What happens when a ball dies is the coverstock has lost the surface deviations originally found on the ball from the out of box finish. These deviations (high Ra and Rs numbers) are created in our finishing and rounding process by creating deep grooves, cuts, and scars on the surface of ball. Later, when the ball is finished, these rough surface deviations are smoothed and ‘polished’ but they aren’t completely removed. If you were to then examine the coverstock on a micron level, the steep peaks and valleys would still be on the surface of the ball, but they would be rounded. This creates the type of ball motion where the ball will still skid through the heads and midlanes cleanly, but still have a tremendous amount of friction generation capabilities as the ball enters the buff or exits the pattern.

 

However, as the ball encounters normal use, these peaks slowly flatten and the valleys collapse. If measured after normal use, the once high Ra and Rs numbers would be much lower than the previous out of box finish. Hence, the ball slowly loses ball reaction with each use. Cleaning the surface will help keep the ball reaction consistent and also break down lane oil, but it isn’t capable of restoring original out of box Ra and Rs values. Luckily, our research has found a fairly simple method to restore the out of box finish.

 

In order to restore these numbers, abralon pads are recommended for virtually every ball in our current or past production line. The easiest and fastest way to refinish the ball is to use a 360 grit abralon pad on the ball. If the ball is being finished by machine, 60 seconds is usually sufficient whereas other methods may take longer. The whole idea is to thoroughly, cut, scar and groove the surface of the ball with the 360 grit pad. Before finishing the 360 grit, make sure the entire surface of the ball has been evenly cut. If it is done by hand or by a ball spinner, a cross-hatch finish is recommended. For the next stage, very lightly sand the surface with a 500 grit abralon pad. This will lower the Ra and Rs values slightly, but it isn’t going to completely destroy the surface deviations created from the previous stage.

 

After the ball has been lightly sanded with 500 grit abralon, please skip directly to the original out of box finish. For example a 4000 grit finish, no polish would require using a 360 grit abralon pad, then light application of a 500 abralon pad finally, skip the 1000 and 2000 stages and go directly to the 4000 finish. The 360 and 500 grit abralon pads will reproduce the original deep grooves and cuts from the factory rounding and finishing process setting the foundation for the final finish. Then, by skipping directly to the 4000 grit abralon stage, the surface will be smoothed and ‘polished’ without destroying the surface deviations. This effectively leaves the surface with the high peaks and deep valleys, but they aren’t as sharp or jagged. This should restore the original ball reaction allowing the ball to skid on oil, read the lighter buff areas of the pattern and still have amazing recovery potential on the backend.

 

For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls. The trick to the polish application is to use less polish and very light pressure. Step 2 Finishing Compound has a resurfacing medium in it that sands the ball while it is being polished over-application of the compound will effectively destroy the same surface deviations that originally gave the ball it’s strong out of box finish.

 

The key to restoring any finish is deeply cutting the ball with the fresh 360 grit abralon pad and then very lightly applying a 500 grit pad. The same is true of the final step as well. Over-application of the 1000, 2000, or 4000 grit pads can destroy the surface deviations created by the 360 and 500 steps weakening the over-all ball reaction.

 

Hopefully, if the sanding process has been repeated successfully, the end results will yield a ball with nearly the exact same Ra and Rs values originally found on the out of box finish restoring life back into the ball.
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Edited on 4/9/2009 2:58 PM

 

J_Mac

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2009, 07:18:55 PM »
With the price of abralon being what it is compared to regular wet/dry sandpaper this method will save plenty of wear and tear on the 1000 and 2000 pads if you like the stock 4000 finishes...

SKIDSNAP

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2009, 09:31:00 PM »
GUYS GUYS GUYS.... Why are you treating this as a conspiracy????


Just because nobosy bothered to ask doesn't mean that the information wasn't available...

The fact that you might feel foolish or that you just found out that the easter bunny is actually a turtle (topical metaphor) might hurt your pride ...but it is just the way the manufacturer chose to get things done.

Who was the one that told any of us that we had to progressively go up the scale to finish the ball.  Maybe they were the ones misleading us.  They were the liars... The need to be drawn and quartered. MAYBE this is a better way.

Not to mention that whatever the end user does to the ball changes the surface makes the box finish moot.  AND how come none of us were smart enough to try it ????????


charlest

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #33 on: April 11, 2009, 09:43:40 PM »
quote:
GUYS GUYS GUYS.... Why are you treating this as a conspiracy????


Just because nobosy bothered to ask doesn't mean that the information wasn't available...

The fact that you might feel foolish or that you just found out that the easter bunny is actually a turtle (topical metaphor) might hurt your pride ...but it is just the way the manufacturer chose to get things done.

Who was the one that told any of us that we had to progressively go up the scale to finish the ball.  Maybe they were the ones misleading us.  They were the liars... The need to be drawn and quartered. MAYBE this is a better way.

Not to mention that whatever the end user does to the ball changes the surface makes the box finish moot.  AND how come none of us were smart enough to try it ????????




Ok, fine. The Manufacturers are perfect and no one should ever doubt their word on anything ever again. Let's all be perfect sheep and follow the Pied Piper down Broadway. Oh, listen to the sweet music!
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Maine Man

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #34 on: April 11, 2009, 09:48:38 PM »
I found this very interesting and an informative read myself.  It's funny how manufacturers differ, Columbia says to go up through all the Abralon grits starting from 500 up to 4000 for their stock 4000 grit balls, and obviously Roto Grip does things differently.  Nice thread and info NIB.
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jbuzz31

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #35 on: April 11, 2009, 09:50:27 PM »
quote:
GUYS GUYS GUYS.... Why are you treating this as a conspiracy????


Just because nobosy bothered to ask doesn't mean that the information wasn't available...

The fact that you might feel foolish or that you just found out that the easter bunny is actually a turtle (topical metaphor) might hurt your pride ...but it is just the way the manufacturer chose to get things done.

Who was the one that told any of us that we had to progressively go up the scale to finish the ball.  Maybe they were the ones misleading us.  They were the liars... The need to be drawn and quartered. MAYBE this is a better way.

Not to mention that whatever the end user does to the ball changes the surface makes the box finish moot.  AND how come none of us were smart enough to try it ????????





Not that we beleive its a conspiracy.  lets put this in an analogy and see if it makes sense to you.

You bought a new car. It supposedly runs on straight Biodiesel. You think sweet. it runs great. you finally run out of gas and have to fill up. but it never runs the same again.  then a few months later you find out from the car company it was actually using a 50/50  blend of biodesel . And now you know why it ran so poorly.

Maybe this makes it easier for you to understand
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SKIDSNAP

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #36 on: April 11, 2009, 09:50:52 PM »
Just what I expected from you....OKAY your pride is hurt..why are you taking this so personally???

As I said at the end of my last post.  How come none of us had tried this before and reported?  

The biggest reaction I have seen from the people I have told this to was "WOW why didn't we think of that???" and "DOH... makes sense"

Just because we were trained with one method and the manufacturer chose another way with what seems to be positive results  does someone have to be a liar??? Does someone have to be wrong???  Isn't it just another way???



SKIDSNAP

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2009, 09:53:15 PM »
I understand find and your analogy does not fit this example... especially since it was the manufacturer that just told you how the surface was prepared.


jbuzz31

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2009, 09:54:49 PM »
quote:
I understand find and your analogy does not fit this example... especially since it was the manufacturer that just told you how the surface was prepared.





It does fit perfectly.  Because the manufacture gave the whole story after the fact.
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SKIDSNAP

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #39 on: April 11, 2009, 09:59:07 PM »
The manufacturer told you what the last surface applied to the ball was.  

The car maker did not top off the tank in the car before you pulled away from the lot.

I know what you are trying to say.....trying to assess blame....whatever..

What do you want to happen.  What is going to make you feel better?  What is your remedy????

Skizriz

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2009, 02:07:14 PM »
I think it is great info. Explains alot.
 To me it seems as the OOB finish at 4000 grit isn't really 4000 grit, but 500 grit with the heavy stuff knocked off with a 4000 grit pad.

There's a big difference.


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SleepOnIce

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2009, 02:29:33 PM »
quote:
I dont really have a horse in this race, just glad to hear what the big kids have to offer.

but just for giggles i took a peak at roto-grip's site.

their official position on ball refinishing:
http://www.rotogrip.com/products/balls/care/

Based on what has been discussed, it would be easy to interpret in a couple of ways. But it's really none of the above.

cut and past excerpt reads like this:




II Restoring Factory Finish:
1000 Grit Abralon:  
Use a 500 Abralon pad to start with a *4 Step sanding process
Switch to a 1000 Grit Abralon pad and repeat the 4 Step sanding process
2000 Grit Abralon:
Same steps as above
Switch to a 2000 Grit Abralon pad and repeat the 4 Step sanding process
4000 Grit Abralon:
Same steps as above
Switch to a 4000 Grit Abralon pad and repeat the 4 Step sanding process  




Edited on 4/12/2009 7:56 AM


It certainly reads like they mean to work your way up to 4000, which differs from what the email says.

I'm just going to say I'm confused, but I'll get over it.
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charlest

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2009, 09:33:46 PM »
I've got better things to do. I've said what I think I wanted to say.

I need to say one more thing:
Trust is earned over hundreds, if not thousands of encounters or interactions between 2 people and between a business and a customer. Trust is to precious a commodity to be destroyed in a single bad experience. Given the precarious conditions of the bowling industry at this stage of economics, loss of trust is very bad thing.
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Oldskool2

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2009, 05:05:57 AM »
@ SKIDSNAP

Normally I wouldn't bother reacting to a post like yours, but since you don't have a clue what we are trying to say....

I don't see this as a conspiracy. Bowling is important for me, but not that important to think about it that way. The companies just gave info that is not correct and those who find such info important are saying this is not oke.

I didn't bother to ask about that info, because it was already given, only that info was not correct.

When sanding to a certain level( in this example P4000 ), there are general "rules" how to get there. The way of sanding in steps that are not to big and by this removing the lines of the previous steps is the way for every material. So nobody was a liar when they told this is the way to get to a certain level.

Why should I feel foolish? And don't even talk about pride, this has absolutely nothing to do with it. You are the one who is taking it this far.

In my opinion the P4000 grit is used as a alternative to polish on top of the P500 grit. It is still P500 grit, but the peaks are rounded by using the 4000 pad. So, 500 Abralon + 4000 Abralon, that is the way I see it.

I think They wanted the delayed reaction of a polished ball, without the over/under a polish can give you. So, yes it's a good idea and there is nothing wrong with it, except calling it 4000 grit Abralon.




SKIDSNAP

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2009, 02:08:25 PM »
Oldskool..

For the most part we agree...


I was speaking to people like Charlest who seems to have emotional re: "trust" issues.  He is the one looking for the conspriacy and saying someone lied.

I am saying that is how it was done so be it.  I am now educated that this will be the way I do it as well when working on these products. Move on....

taige690

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #45 on: April 13, 2009, 04:21:00 PM »
I would really like to guess how many bowlers try to duplicate the OOB condition and succeed, in which that is ok. In my case, I have had to alter the coverstock for my particuler conditions and the way I throw the ball. I think most of the bowlers today dwell on OOB far to much. Just my opinion!