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Author Topic: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon  (Read 36316 times)

NewInBox

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Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« on: April 09, 2009, 06:57:29 AM »
Just thought I would pass this on. I asked Roto-Grip whether they recommended Abralon over Scotch-brite and this is the answer I got:

They work, but not as effectively as abralon. For our official stance on surface alterations I will include a short essay I’ve written on the subject…

 

Thank you for contacting us with your concern. As far as ball reaction is concerned, we have several recommendations to maintain ball performance and life, but the primary area of concern is with the surface topography of the ball. As a quick over-view, surface topography in the bowling industry has been measured with specific ‘Ra’ and ‘Rs’ standards. These values directly relate to how aggressive the coverstock is and how much friction the coverstock can generate. The Ra value measures the standard deviations above or below the surface of the ball. For example, a series of high peaks and low valleys would be measured with an extremely high Ra value. Likewise, the Great Plains with a relatively smooth landscape and rolling hills would have a low Ra value. Rs isn’t as important, but by definition is the average distance between each individual peaks.

 

The reason these numbers are important is because of the correlation between ball reaction and high Ra and Rs values. Essentially, the greater the Ra and Rs number, the more friction the coverstock can generate. The more friction the coverstock can generate, the greater hook potential the ball will have. What happens when a ball dies is the coverstock has lost the surface deviations originally found on the ball from the out of box finish. These deviations (high Ra and Rs numbers) are created in our finishing and rounding process by creating deep grooves, cuts, and scars on the surface of ball. Later, when the ball is finished, these rough surface deviations are smoothed and ‘polished’ but they aren’t completely removed. If you were to then examine the coverstock on a micron level, the steep peaks and valleys would still be on the surface of the ball, but they would be rounded. This creates the type of ball motion where the ball will still skid through the heads and midlanes cleanly, but still have a tremendous amount of friction generation capabilities as the ball enters the buff or exits the pattern.

 

However, as the ball encounters normal use, these peaks slowly flatten and the valleys collapse. If measured after normal use, the once high Ra and Rs numbers would be much lower than the previous out of box finish. Hence, the ball slowly loses ball reaction with each use. Cleaning the surface will help keep the ball reaction consistent and also break down lane oil, but it isn’t capable of restoring original out of box Ra and Rs values. Luckily, our research has found a fairly simple method to restore the out of box finish.

 

In order to restore these numbers, abralon pads are recommended for virtually every ball in our current or past production line. The easiest and fastest way to refinish the ball is to use a 360 grit abralon pad on the ball. If the ball is being finished by machine, 60 seconds is usually sufficient whereas other methods may take longer. The whole idea is to thoroughly, cut, scar and groove the surface of the ball with the 360 grit pad. Before finishing the 360 grit, make sure the entire surface of the ball has been evenly cut. If it is done by hand or by a ball spinner, a cross-hatch finish is recommended. For the next stage, very lightly sand the surface with a 500 grit abralon pad. This will lower the Ra and Rs values slightly, but it isn’t going to completely destroy the surface deviations created from the previous stage.

 

After the ball has been lightly sanded with 500 grit abralon, please skip directly to the original out of box finish. For example a 4000 grit finish, no polish would require using a 360 grit abralon pad, then light application of a 500 abralon pad finally, skip the 1000 and 2000 stages and go directly to the 4000 finish. The 360 and 500 grit abralon pads will reproduce the original deep grooves and cuts from the factory rounding and finishing process setting the foundation for the final finish. Then, by skipping directly to the 4000 grit abralon stage, the surface will be smoothed and ‘polished’ without destroying the surface deviations. This effectively leaves the surface with the high peaks and deep valleys, but they aren’t as sharp or jagged. This should restore the original ball reaction allowing the ball to skid on oil, read the lighter buff areas of the pattern and still have amazing recovery potential on the backend.

 

For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls. The trick to the polish application is to use less polish and very light pressure. Step 2 Finishing Compound has a resurfacing medium in it that sands the ball while it is being polished over-application of the compound will effectively destroy the same surface deviations that originally gave the ball it’s strong out of box finish.

 

The key to restoring any finish is deeply cutting the ball with the fresh 360 grit abralon pad and then very lightly applying a 500 grit pad. The same is true of the final step as well. Over-application of the 1000, 2000, or 4000 grit pads can destroy the surface deviations created by the 360 and 500 steps weakening the over-all ball reaction.

 

Hopefully, if the sanding process has been repeated successfully, the end results will yield a ball with nearly the exact same Ra and Rs values originally found on the out of box finish restoring life back into the ball.
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Edited on 4/9/2009 2:58 PM

 

scotts33

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #61 on: April 21, 2009, 10:35:09 AM »
Matt,

Are you saying that Visionary uses a green scotch brite 600 and then finishes with final surface?  What does Visionary use for 1500 polished?
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batbowler

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #62 on: April 21, 2009, 11:04:46 AM »
The RA is the peaks and valleys and the RS is the space between them! Just to clarify Cool's statement earlier. I have a shop and no I don't have one of these High-Tech instruments and probably won't be getting one.
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icewall

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #63 on: April 21, 2009, 12:01:41 PM »
I think the whole point we can all get out of this is that:

you need a strong deep grit to start with and not destroy those deep grooves while stepping up (be that straight to 4000 or stepped up all the way)

even ebonite/hammer says that its crucial to start AT 500 abralon and then step up each abralon pad.

too many people see something like 600 grit scotchbrite and 500 abralon as close but they are not even close. if you "roughly" convert those to fepa or P standard thats 1200 grit compared to 500
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Cambumbo

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #64 on: April 21, 2009, 01:55:26 PM »
Great information. As far as Scotch Brite vs. Abralon, I've heard arguments that support both, depending on who you ask. Some people say Scotch Brite results are more porous while Abralon flattens Ra and Rs and vise-versa, who knows. Use what works for you. I have had great results with both.

crazyyankee

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #65 on: April 21, 2009, 06:25:32 PM »
i tried this with my cell and break s-75.cell reacts as new and it made my s-75 a beast.i hit my cell with 360 cross hatch then light 500 then light 2000.my s-75 break i hit with 180 then 360 then light 500 and light 2000.
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tuckingfenpin

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #66 on: April 21, 2009, 06:36:18 PM »
quote:
i tried this with my cell and break s-75.cell reacts as new and it made my s-75 a beast.i hit my cell with 360 cross hatch then light 500 then light 2000.my s-75 break i hit with 180 then 360 then light 500 and light 2000.
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I did the same thing to my Cell and it's a completely different ball then going from 500-1k-2k, crosshatching each grit. I get a much more defined mid read and a heck of a lot sharper of an angle on the backends..much like it was OOB
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Jay

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #67 on: April 21, 2009, 06:58:19 PM »
When you do the lighter sanding are you still doing the same amount of sides as you do with the 360?

crazyyankee

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #68 on: April 21, 2009, 07:21:33 PM »
with the 500 and 2000 grit i sanded half of what i did with the 360 grit.
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Nor Cal Bowler

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #69 on: April 22, 2009, 12:41:50 PM »
quote:
Matt,

Are you saying that Visionary uses a green scotch brite 600 and then finishes with final surface?  What does Visionary use for 1500 polished?
--------------------
Scott




Scott,

It's on a haus type machine I belive Jason said and using 600 grit buy nothing said about scotchbrite.
Then the ball is put on a machine that they made (luster king like) and is brought to 1500 with a rubbing compound in bar form. I use 600 grit on the shop haus machine with the cab brand sandpaper and use storm step 2 using small amounts of the compound on a damp towel, (with a spinner)  apply light pressure, and remove excess with a microfiber towel or buffing cloth. That's the closest way I have figured out to get the visionary OOB reaction.
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Mike L

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #70 on: April 23, 2009, 02:46:00 PM »
I have not read every post because it seemed people wanted to argue more but I do have a question about it.  

We use a Haus resurfacing machine on balls instead of by hand, im telling you now I don't care if you go from 360 to 500 to 4000, when you do it in the machine it puts a polish on it even if for just a few minutes at 4000.  I have noticed I can take a Virtual Gravity from 360, 500, 4000, then back to 500 and its pretty close to the OOB look and reaction.  Is there a system that should be used when using the Haus machine, because it doesn't work the same as the info provided?  It does however seem to work when doing it by hand, just like they say to do.  Just curious if anyone else uses this machine for resurfacing.

Thanks,
Mike
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n00dlejester

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #71 on: June 01, 2009, 05:43:22 PM »
Great information - thank you for passing this along!
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MI 2 AZ

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #72 on: June 16, 2009, 06:43:18 PM »
ttt
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Brickguy221

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #73 on: June 16, 2009, 08:30:46 PM »
quote:
In order to restore these numbers, abralon pads are recommended for virtually every ball in our current or past production line. The easiest and fastest way to refinish the ball is to use a 360 grit abralon pad on the ball. If the ball is being finished by machine, 60 seconds is usually sufficient whereas other methods may take longer. The whole idea is to thoroughly, cut, scar and groove the surface of the ball with the 360 grit pad. Before finishing the 360 grit, make sure the entire surface of the ball has been evenly cut. If it is done by hand or by a ball spinner, a cross-hatch finish is recommended. For the next stage, very lightly sand the surface with a 500 grit abralon pad. This will lower the Ra and Rs values slightly, but it isn’t going to completely destroy the surface deviations created from the previous stage.


After the ball has been lightly sanded with 500 grit abralon, please skip directly to the original out of box finish. For example a 4000 grit finish, no polish would require using a 360 grit abralon pad, then light application of a 500 abralon pad finally, skip the 1000 and 2000 stages and go directly to the 4000 finish. The 360 and 500 grit abralon pads will reproduce the original deep grooves and cuts from the factory rounding and finishing process setting the foundation for the final finish. Then, by skipping directly to the 4000 grit abralon stage, the surface will be smoothed and ‘polished’ without destroying the surface deviations. This effectively leaves the surface with the high peaks and deep valleys, but they aren’t as sharp or jagged. This should restore the original ball reaction allowing the ball to skid on oil, read the lighter buff areas of the pattern and still have amazing recovery potential on the backend.


For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls. The trick to the polish application is to use less polish and very light pressure. Step 2 Finishing Compound has a resurfacing medium in it that sands the ball while it is being polished over-application of the compound will effectively destroy the same surface deviations that originally gave the ball it’s strong out of box finish.


The key to restoring any finish is deeply cutting the ball with the fresh 360 grit abralon pad and then very lightly applying a 500 grit pad. The same is true of the final step as well. Over-application of the 1000, 2000, or 4000 grit pads can destroy the surface deviations created by the 360 and 500 steps weakening the over-all ball reaction.

 


My Playmaker became weak with no back-end pop after 100 games. I used the above method but didn't have any Storm Step 2 Polish so I used some Ebonite Factory Polish that I had. This didn't help the ball much if any at all, so I re-sanded the ball following the above steps again and polished with 3M Finesse-It II and voila, the ball came back to life and performed like it did when NIB.
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tburky

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #74 on: June 16, 2009, 08:41:11 PM »
quote:
I have not read every post because it seemed people wanted to argue more but I do have a question about it.  

We use a Haus resurfacing machine on balls instead of by hand, im telling you now I don't care if you go from 360 to 500 to 4000, when you do it in the machine it puts a polish on it even if for just a few minutes at 4000.  I have noticed I can take a Virtual Gravity from 360, 500, 4000, then back to 500 and its pretty close to the OOB look and reaction.  Is there a system that should be used when using the Haus machine, because it doesn't work the same as the info provided?  It does however seem to work when doing it by hand, just like they say to do.  Just curious if anyone else uses this machine for resurfacing.

Thanks,
Mike
--------------------
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I use a storm factory finish machine and i guarantee you it gets very close to box and does not have a polished look to it.

MI 2 AZ

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Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #75 on: August 18, 2009, 01:32:17 PM »
With leagues starting, probably a good time for a bump back to the top.

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