BallReviews

General Category => Coverstock Preparation => Topic started by: Ric Clint on February 15, 2004, 02:01:02 PM

Title: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Ric Clint on February 15, 2004, 02:01:02 PM
And it said something about that most of the PRO's and REGIONAL guys love it for a polish. And how it doesn't change the grit of the ball, it just adds polish (meaning if you sand a ball to 600 and then apply Black Magic afterwards, that the ball stays at 600 underneath the polish)... some polishes out there have some type of abrasive in them that smoothes out the surface as it's polishing the ball.

So it looks like you could take a ball and sand it down really low to like 320-400 and then use Black Magic and the ball would have length and MORE backend than if you used some other type of polish.

The Black Magic polish would give the ball length for extra energy retention while the 320-400 sanded finish UNDERNEATH the Black Magic would give it more "grip/bite" in the backend therefore making the ball turnover harder...???

Agree... or am I way off base on this???






Edited on 2/16/2004 6:04 AM
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: jensm on February 16, 2004, 06:07:58 AM
Ric,

I have done what you describe on a few occasions: I sanded an Apex Aggression down to 400, rolled it a for a game or so, put on a touch of Black Magic using a spinner and rolled a game. The Black Magic got me several feet of length and a sharper backend. Did the same with a 1500 surface, got more length again and again more bite in the backend.

However, I don't know if if was the added length that resultet in more backend or if it was the difference in grip/bite. My guess is that it would depend on the condition.

--------------------
Regards,

jensm
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: charlest on February 16, 2004, 09:02:57 AM
Ric,

What you wrote was my original understanding of Black Magic. How it did that, I did not understand either. When I first used it and for a long time thereafter, I seemed to get the expected results. In fact, so much so, I felt confident recommending it to fellow ballreview inmates.

However,
lately, the last 3 months, I have been using it less and less, because the results when using it have been more inconsistent. Maybe I should try some controlled experiments, but at this point in time, I cannot recommend it without some reservations.
--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: kendog on February 16, 2004, 09:08:41 AM
Charlest, I'd like to hear what kind of inconsistencies you've seen, for future reference. I've been using it lately, along with Elixir reapplied every so often. I always lightly scuff with a green scotch bright and clean the ball well before I apply either. So far I've gotten exactly the results mentioned by Ric and jensm.
--------------------
kendog
avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: jensm on February 16, 2004, 10:43:04 AM
charlest,

I'd also like to hear about your experiences with inconsistencies using Black Magic. A bad batch or?

--------------------
Regards,

jensm
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: charlest on February 16, 2004, 12:50:34 PM
I've done a few balls where I put on a slightly heavier than normal dose of Black Magic and I got a LOT more length and a lot more ERRATIC backend. I did not change the cover and this happened on at least 3 different balls; sorry, can't remember which ones. This is why I did not want to get into more details until I ran some controlled tests, which I don't have time for right now. I need to make sure what happened was not my fault thru application or thru execution. So for me personally, I am just not using it; I have enough other bowling problems.

If you have seen nothing untoward happening, continue using it as you have been. Hey, don't mess with with what works.  It may be a couple of months before I get a chance to do these tests.

Let me emphasize that:

If you have seen nothing untoward happening, continue using it as you have been. Hey, don't mess with with what works.

--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."


Edited on 2/16/2004 1:47 PM
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: jensm on February 16, 2004, 04:42:26 PM
I have found Black Magic to be slightly "softer" than automotive polishes. By this I mean that I get slightly more shine from an automotive polish than I get from Black Magic (given the same sanding grit, the same time on the spinner and the same pressure used).

I haven't tried Finesse-It because 3M doesn't have distribution of it here in Sweden.


--------------------
Regards,

jensm
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: ambi1 on February 23, 2004, 02:40:48 AM
Anyone one with any comnments on the ebonite ractory finish polish..?  Wear-wise?
--------------------


DARK BEER IT IS THEN!
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: northface28 on February 23, 2004, 01:40:25 PM
I was at a Storm seminar with my girlfriend who was getting lessons. Anyway the Storm rep there said that Black Magic polishes used in conjunction with STORM RESIN BALLS kill the reaction of the ball. Something about the material in storm resins and the properties in Black Magic polish dont mix well. Just food for thought.
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: kendog on February 24, 2004, 06:53:09 AM
I wanted to add to this thread that since it was started I have polished my Blueberry Saw with Black magic twice. The first time I used it, it added a light gloss to the ball, and didn't seem to affect the reaction in any adverse way. The second time I applied it I definitely noticed a negative effect on the balls reaction. I've since wet sanded, and now I'm trying to decide between taking it to the pro shop and getting another brand of polish. Any recommendations?
--------------------
kendog
avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: charlest on February 24, 2004, 07:02:16 AM
quote:
I wanted to add to this thread that since it was started I have polished my Blueberry Saw with Black magic twice. The first time I used it, it added a light gloss to the ball, and didn't seem to affect the reaction in any adverse way. The second time I applied it I definitely noticed a negative effect on the balls reaction. I've since wet sanded, and now I'm trying to decide between taking it to the pro shop and getting another brand of polish. Any recommendations?
--------------------


To be safe and it seems we need to be lately!!

Ebonite ball? Use an Ebonite polish:
http://www.bowlersparadise.com/shop/cp/ebonite/

Storm ball? Use a Storm polish.
http://www.bowlersparadise.com/shop/cp/storm/

Brunswick (Lane1) cover? Use a Brunswick polish!!
http://www.bowlerschoice.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Bowlerschoice&Product_Code=BBP&Category_Code=Cleaners+%26+Polish

Columbia (Track, Nuline, AMF) cover. Use Track or Degree polishes:
http://www.bowlingindex.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?page=BI/CTGY/P
--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: SrKegler on February 24, 2004, 07:08:53 AM
Kendog, it seemed to me the Storm polish done a good job in Florida.  Its what I use on my Lane 1 stuff. Course I probably wouldn't recognize an adverse reaction if it bit me in my ........
--------------------
~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel

Old bowlers never die, we just don't score as often
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 24, 2004, 11:33:36 AM
I too had the same experience using Black Magic on the Blueberry. Finally gave up on the ball and sold it.
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: kendog on February 24, 2004, 11:39:12 AM
brick, you can bet I won't give up on this ball very easy, I just rolled a three with it a month ago. Right now I've got it wet sanded and I'm probably going to take it to the pro shop and get it shined up along with my Thing Returns.
--------------------
kendog
avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 24, 2004, 11:44:38 AM
Ken. I had the same thing happen on my X-Factor. I blamed Storm, but maybe it wasn't the ball, maybe it was the polish........I now use Storm Xtra Shine and Storm steps 1-2-3. I believe Doug Sterner uses Storm Polishes also without any problems.
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: ambi1 on February 24, 2004, 09:32:44 PM
quote:
quote:
I was at a Storm seminar with my girlfriend who was getting lessons. Anyway the Storm rep there said that Black Magic polishes used in conjunction with STORM RESIN BALLS kill the reaction of the ball. Something about the material in storm resins and the properties in Black Magic polish dont mix well. Just food for thought.


Don't you wish the manufacturers would give bowlers a heads up on things like this?  I believe it was Doug Sterner who posted here about Neo Tac Renew It not agreeing with Hammer reactives (pre Ebonite).  

This is information we need.

--------------------
See what happens when you make good shots!


Edited on 2/24/2004 0:30 AM



Whoa... not you've got me worried, any bad reactions with ebonite covers?  And yes I do wish the manufacturers would give an accepted cleaners/solution list.
--------------------


DARK BEER IT IS THEN!
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Ric Clint on March 24, 2004, 04:22:34 AM
quote:
I've done a few balls where I put on a slightly heavier than normal dose of Black Magic and I got a LOT more length and a lot more ERRATIC backend.


Charlest,

When you say that the backend became ERRATIC... what did you mean by this? That the backend was so strong that it hooked too much and was too uncontrolable... or that it was inconsistent where as one ball would hook up strong and the next ball would come in late?

Which one did you mean?



quote:
I was at a Storm seminar with my girlfriend who was getting lessons. Anyway the Storm rep there said that Black Magic polishes used in conjunction with STORM RESIN BALLS kill the reaction of the ball. Something about the material in storm resins and the properties in Black Magic polish dont mix well. Just food for thought.


Hmmm... that's interesting!!!



quote:
I wanted to add to this thread that since it was started I have polished my Blueberry Saw with Black magic twice. The first time I used it, it added a light gloss to the ball, and didn't seem to affect the reaction in any adverse way. The second time I applied it I definitely noticed a negative effect on the balls reaction. I've since wet sanded, and now I'm trying to decide between taking it to the pro shop and getting another brand of polish.


Hmmm... that's interesting also!!! You know, Black Magic may NOT be as good/safe as it's hyped up to be? I mean, sure the pro's all recommend it, but now I'm starting to wonder about Black Magic! I just wonder if the Pro's know what they're talking about on this one? I've heard several Negitive's about Black Magic on here and other places.

I think I may stay away from Black Magic.


Does anybody know anything about TRACK's "Magic Shine"? How high does it polish a ball up to? And does it keep the backend strong, or kill it like maybe Black Magic might possibly be doing?



Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: charlest on March 24, 2004, 07:21:41 AM
quote:
quote:
I've done a few balls where I put on a slightly heavier than normal dose of Black Magic and I got a LOT more length and a lot more ERRATIC backend.


Charlest,

When you say that the backend became ERRATIC... what did you mean by this? That the backend was so strong that it hooked too much and was too uncontrolable... or that it was inconsistent where as one ball would hook up strong and the next ball would come in late?

Which one did you mean?




I mean inconsistent reaction. Sometimes it seemed to kill the backend and sometimes it just went longer, as a heavier application would seem to allow. It seemed to vary by ball. Maybe the guy who indicated it "killed" Storm's balls, or rather their brand of reactive covers was right. Sinc eoil seems to affect different brands of resin covers differently, maybe different polishes affect these different resins differently also.

--------------------
"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 24, 2004, 08:41:35 AM
Rick, I've heard and read all of those things too. Have heard similar comments about Neo Tac Hook-It and Re-New It. True or not, I don't know. I just wish somepne that really knows would clairify these "hearsays."

Although I am not a Storm Ball fan, I have just started using Storm Steps 1-2-3 Polishes, but haven't used them enough to make a judgement call on them. Can anyone speak about these polishes.

--------------------
Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company

Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: kendog on March 24, 2004, 09:12:00 AM
My pro used Storm Reacta shine on my Blueberry and my Thing returns, both with excellent results. One thing I won't do is give up on a ball just because I made a mistake in cover prep. I really think for me (emphasis on ME) I like to always scuff a ball before I apply polish; that way I expose fresh material in the cover. That's the one lesson I've learned lately. I won't just apply polish again. The same thing goes with Elixir. I've talked to many bowlers who were dissatisfied with the stuff because it killed the reaction. Take that for what it's worth.
--------------------
kendog
avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: da Shiv on March 24, 2004, 10:06:19 AM
I'm not a Storm ball fan either, but I've been using their Step 1,2,& 3 polishes for a long time, and the results I get from them are totally satisfactory and seem to be just as advertised.  The Step 2 polish in particular seems to be a little higher viscosity than may really be necessary, and needs to be used with a lot of water; it seems to me anyway.

I really like all of the Neotac products and am very satisfied with all of them.  I've never gotten a bad result on any ball from any manufacturer with any of these products.

I haven't been using Black Magic for very long, and I don't really need it that much anyway.  My initial results were very good, but I don't have long term experience with it, and some of the comments on this board recently have made me a little cautious about it.

Outside of the Neotac stuff, my personal favorites in terms of good results have always been the Ebonite line.  I use a lot of the Powerhouse Quicksand, and the even older stuff called simply "2000."  It was part of step by step line they once had that included 900, 3000, and 5000.  There were six in the line--I'm not sure what the others were--I believe there was a 600 as well.  I stocked up on some of these when they were discontinued.  (I try to remember to shake them all up occasionally, since I'm not going through them very fast.)  Some bowling supply house was getting rid of the Ebonite numerical line not too long ago and sent me a flyer in the mail with outrageously low prices like $2.00 for an 8 or 10 oz. bottle.  I spent about $20 and now I have a basement full of polish.  

Storm hiked up their prices to distributors by a very large margin not too long ago.  I don't know what was behind that--the stuff itself seems the same.

I tried some Track Magic Clean 'N' Polish awhile ago.  It advertises a 5000 finish, and it is indeed shinier than anything else I've used.  (Storm's Diamond Gloss advertised 5000 also, but I never tried that and it's defunct now.)  The Clean 'N' Polish makes a marginally higher shine than Storm's Xtra Shine, which advertises 3500.  Applying Black Magic on top of Clean 'N' Polish actually dulls the ball a bit!  I have only once needed to use the ball with the Clean 'N' Polish on it and the results were what I expected and were satisfactory, but once isn't enough to make any kind of worthwhile evaluation of the product.

Shiv
--------------------
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 24, 2004, 11:46:59 AM
Shiv, thanks for your input. Rest assured, I will put it to good use.

--------------------
Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company

Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 24, 2004, 11:56:10 AM
Kendog, I read your post and
Quote
....[The same thing goes with Elixir. I've talked to many bowlers who were dissatisfied with the stuff because it killed the reaction. Take that for what it's worth.]
----------------------------------------------------------------

I tried using it for 3-4 months and the same thing happened to me. Since I don't have "much hand" and low revs, I had to quit using it. In addition to killing the action, it also caused my balls to "skid thru the break point." Even changing the ball surface didn't help. With higher revs, it might have worked for me, but with my low revs, it didn't.

--------------------
Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company

Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium

Edited on 3/24/2004 12:52 PM
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Da Mutant Yoot on March 24, 2004, 11:18:03 PM
Regarding the Neo-Tac Hook It, I have used it for several months, cleaning each and every ball that I own, before every set.  From what I have seen, it cleans the coverstock extremely well and leaves that desirable tacky feeling.  Most of the time I clean the ball on my ball spinner with it. Throwing the ball after the cleaning it reacts exactly as new in the box and lasts longer than advertised.  I swear by Hook it.  It doesn't do anything to the coverstock other than remove lane oil, and belt marks and leave a tacky feeling to the coverstock. Just my 2 cents.
--------------------
Shoot first and ask questions later!!
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 25, 2004, 12:31:15 AM
Da Mutant, what procedure do you use with the Hook-It and spinner. For example, do you put it on with the spinner running and clean off while still running, or do you put it on the ball and let it soak in how long?...and then remove with spinner, or what?

--------------------
Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company

Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: da Shiv on March 25, 2004, 08:59:53 AM
I agree with Da Mutant Yoot about Hook-It.  This is a good place to mention something else I've noticed about Hook-It.  In my experience, if you treat the ball with Hook-It immediately before competition, it gives the ball a noticeably stronger backend without making the ball hook too early.  I discovered this kind of by accident.  I usually clean my bowling balls and do whatever surface prep I want for that ball a day or two after bowling.  One time I got to the center very early before league and did a lot of practice--so much that I wanted to clean the ball I was using (and planned to use that night) before league started.  I did a thorough cleaning with Hook-It, just rotating the ball around on a table and using bar napkins soaked with Hook-It.  When league practice started, I immediately noticed an extremely strong backend.  I did this procedure before league for about a month--all the times after the first time it did not involve pre-league practice like it did the first time.  The results were the same each time.  I quit doing it because most of the time the extra strong backend was more than needed for this particular center.  This experiment resulted in my discovery of another possible scoring weapon.  Since Hook-It is ABC legal for use DURING league play, if you start off and feel you have a pretty good ball reaction, but need a little more zip on the backend, just go over your ball with a quickie treatment of Hook-It.

My usual cleaning regimen is to put the ball on the spinner and start it up and hold a paper towel with a generous amount of Hook-It on it on the ball, moving the paper towel up and down the ball.  When I notice the paper towel seems to be starting to get drier, a take it off the ball and hold a clean towel (washcloth actually) on the ball to remove any residue.  This last step is probably not even really necessary.  I flip the ball 180 degrees and do the other side.  Then I flip it 90 degrees and do the procedure again.  Then another 180 flip and clean again.  This way you get 4 "sides" of the ball.  Generally the last two repetitions don't show any new grime on the paper towel and are probably not even necessary, but I'm obsessive--what can I say.

I think Hook-It can clean just as effectively without a spinner, but it takes longer and is more work.

I have another theory about Hook-It that is not claimed by Neotac, but seems to me to be the case.  I think it soaks into the ball and displaces oil.  I would not have noticed this on my equipment, since I clean obsessively.  I noticed it because an older guy I bowl with finally consented to let me clean his ball partly because I was needling him about it's condition, but mostly because he was getting no reaction out of it anymore.  I went at it with Hook-It and bar napkins on the settee table.  The first several passes resulted in lots of black gunk coming off the ball.  After that, what was coming out of the ball was yellow gunk--looking a lot like oil.  It wasn't ball color--the ball had no yellow, green, or orange in it.  Yellow gunk was still coming out of the ball when it was time to start league and I had to stop so I could go and wash the Hook-It off my hands and start bowling.  This guy's ball had a noticeable pop on the backend that night and he bowled almost 100 over and won a couple pots.  He's been using Hook-It ever since.  Anyway, the main reason I told that last story is to advance my theory that Hook-It displaces lane oil in the ball.

Generous use of Hook-It like what I do makes it advisable to buy it by the quart--I use www.blockbusterbowling.com.  Good prices, good selection, fast shipping.

Shiv
--------------------
Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 25, 2004, 09:12:07 AM
Re: Hook-It Thanks once again Shiv. You've given me a wealth of information that I did not have under this topic. I really appreciate it. As soon as I get off the computer here, I'm going to the garage and use my Hook-It on my 3 Buzzsaws and see what happens in league play this afternoon. Again, many thanks.

--------------------
Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company

Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: da Shiv on March 30, 2004, 07:23:50 AM
Hook-It does have a dissolving effect on finger inserts, but if you're just passing over them (especially on a spinner) it doesn't get at them much.  If you're slopping the Hook-It around and it gets in your finger holes and all over your inserts, it would be a good idea to stop and rinse the fingers out with water right away.  Hook-It won't dissolve them instantly.

As far as using Renew-It first, that's okay, but bear in mind that Renew-It has a polishing effect.  If you don't want that, just go right to the Hook-It.

Shiv
--------------------
Forever let us hold our banner high
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 30, 2004, 11:26:11 AM
I tried the Hook-It. Works great. Shiv is right about getting the Hook-It on the finger inserts. No problem if you do what he says to do. I used two methods on my balls. I did it like Shiv said to do and on the second method, I stayed away from the holes on spinner, then applied around the holes with spinner off, then started spinner and cleaned off with a cloth.

--------------------
Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company

Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: JohnP on March 30, 2004, 11:40:38 AM
Brickguy221 -- Good idea.  You could also cover the finger holes with masking tape.  --  JohnP
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: LeftE on March 30, 2004, 11:52:11 AM
I have have used Hook It with great results, but I don't know if it should be used as much as you guys are using it.

It is a solvent, like Nail Polish. It "gently" softens the very surface of the coverstock, which is why it appears to remove the track area of some balls. That is why there is a warning not to let Hook It sit on the ball but to make sure you wipe all of it off.
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: kendog on March 30, 2004, 12:31:08 PM
After seeing what hook-it did to my buddy's bag a couple of years ago when it leaked; I decided I didn't want that stuff on my equipment. Maybe I overreacted, the short duration of time it's applied to the ball probably doesn't allow it to deform the surface. I'll tell you it melted a big spot on his bag.
--------------------
kendog
avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: da Shiv on March 30, 2004, 01:50:02 PM
Hook-It has a dissolving effect on a lot of plastics.  It doesn't have that effect on resin or urethane bowling balls, but it DOES have that effect on polyester (plastic) bowling balls and shouldn't be used on those.

I don't remember offhand what type of plastic that the bottles that Hook-It comes in are made out of, but they do have the recycle symbol on the bottom that tells you.  Hook-It obviously has no effect on those.

I have a cleaning mixture that I use sometimes that consists of a 50-50 mixture of Renew-It and Hook-It.  I originally got that idea from their website, but then that suggestion vanished for awhile.  I think they have it back on there again.  (Their website maintenance is a little squirrely)  The pro shop I use uses that mixture as well.  One time when I was mixing the proportions, I used a little plastic disposable Dixie cup, and the Hook-It attacked that plastic immediately, discoloring and melting it.

I'm a big fan of Hook-It, but I'm leery of carrying it around in my bowling bag.  I don't want to find out the hard way what it's likely to dissolve in my bag if it starts to leak.

Shiv
--------------------
Forever let us hold our banner high
Title: Re: You know... I was just reading about BLACK MAGIC...
Post by: Ric Clint on April 08, 2004, 12:57:49 AM
quote:
I really think for me (emphasis on ME) I like to always scuff a ball before I apply polish; that way I expose fresh material in the cover. That's the one lesson I've learned lately. I won't just apply polish again.


kendog,

That's a good concept! Re-sand a ball before you re-apply the polish... I'm gonna start doing this!