Post by: Ric Clint on February 15, 2004, 02:01:02 PM
So it looks like you could take a ball and sand it down really low to like 320-400 and then use Black Magic and the ball would have length and MORE backend than if you used some other type of polish.
The Black Magic polish would give the ball length for extra energy retention while the 320-400 sanded finish UNDERNEATH the Black Magic would give it more "grip/bite" in the backend therefore making the ball turnover harder...???
Agree... or am I way off base on this???
Edited on 2/16/2004 6:04 AM
Post by: jensm on February 16, 2004, 06:07:58 AM
I have done what you describe on a few occasions: I sanded an Apex Aggression down to 400, rolled it a for a game or so, put on a touch of Black Magic using a spinner and rolled a game. The Black Magic got me several feet of length and a sharper backend. Did the same with a 1500 surface, got more length again and again more bite in the backend.
However, I don't know if if was the added length that resultet in more backend or if it was the difference in grip/bite. My guess is that it would depend on the condition.
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Regards,
jensm
Post by: charlest on February 16, 2004, 09:02:57 AM
What you wrote was my original understanding of Black Magic. How it did that, I did not understand either. When I first used it and for a long time thereafter, I seemed to get the expected results. In fact, so much so, I felt confident recommending it to fellow ballreview inmates.
However,
lately, the last 3 months, I have been using it less and less, because the results when using it have been more inconsistent. Maybe I should try some controlled experiments, but at this point in time, I cannot recommend it without some reservations.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: kendog on February 16, 2004, 09:08:41 AM
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kendog avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Post by: jensm on February 16, 2004, 10:43:04 AM
I'd also like to hear about your experiences with inconsistencies using Black Magic. A bad batch or?
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Regards,
jensm
Post by: charlest on February 16, 2004, 12:50:34 PM
If you have seen nothing untoward happening, continue using it as you have been. Hey, don't mess with with what works. It may be a couple of months before I get a chance to do these tests.
Let me emphasize that:
If you have seen nothing untoward happening, continue using it as you have been. Hey, don't mess with with what works.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Edited on 2/16/2004 1:47 PM
Post by: jensm on February 16, 2004, 04:42:26 PM
I haven't tried Finesse-It because 3M doesn't have distribution of it here in Sweden.
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Regards,
jensm
Post by: ambi1 on February 23, 2004, 02:40:48 AM
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DARK BEER IT IS THEN!
Post by: northface28 on February 23, 2004, 01:40:25 PM
Post by: kendog on February 24, 2004, 06:53:09 AM
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kendog avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Post by: charlest on February 24, 2004, 07:02:16 AM
quote:
I wanted to add to this thread that since it was started I have polished my Blueberry Saw with Black magic twice. The first time I used it, it added a light gloss to the ball, and didn't seem to affect the reaction in any adverse way. The second time I applied it I definitely noticed a negative effect on the balls reaction. I've since wet sanded, and now I'm trying to decide between taking it to the pro shop and getting another brand of polish. Any recommendations?
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To be safe and it seems we need to be lately!!
Ebonite ball? Use an Ebonite polish:
http://www.bowlersparadise.com/shop/cp/ebonite/
Storm ball? Use a Storm polish.
http://www.bowlersparadise.com/shop/cp/storm/
Brunswick (Lane1) cover? Use a Brunswick polish!!
http://www.bowlerschoice.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=Bowlerschoice&Product_Code=BBP&Category_Code=Cleaners+%26+Polish
Columbia (Track, Nuline, AMF) cover. Use Track or Degree polishes:
http://www.bowlingindex.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?page=BI/CTGY/P
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: SrKegler on February 24, 2004, 07:08:53 AM
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~~~SrK - Have balls, will travel
Old bowlers never die, we just don't score as often
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 24, 2004, 11:33:36 AM
Post by: kendog on February 24, 2004, 11:39:12 AM
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kendog avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Post by: Brickguy221 on February 24, 2004, 11:44:38 AM
Post by: ambi1 on February 24, 2004, 09:32:44 PM
quote:quote:
I was at a Storm seminar with my girlfriend who was getting lessons. Anyway the Storm rep there said that Black Magic polishes used in conjunction with STORM RESIN BALLS kill the reaction of the ball. Something about the material in storm resins and the properties in Black Magic polish dont mix well. Just food for thought.
Don't you wish the manufacturers would give bowlers a heads up on things like this? I believe it was Doug Sterner who posted here about Neo Tac Renew It not agreeing with Hammer reactives (pre Ebonite).
This is information we need.
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See what happens when you make good shots!
Edited on 2/24/2004 0:30 AM
Whoa... not you've got me worried, any bad reactions with ebonite covers? And yes I do wish the manufacturers would give an accepted cleaners/solution list.
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DARK BEER IT IS THEN!
Post by: Ric Clint on March 24, 2004, 04:22:34 AM
quote:
I've done a few balls where I put on a slightly heavier than normal dose of Black Magic and I got a LOT more length and a lot more ERRATIC backend.
Charlest,
When you say that the backend became ERRATIC... what did you mean by this? That the backend was so strong that it hooked too much and was too uncontrolable... or that it was inconsistent where as one ball would hook up strong and the next ball would come in late?
Which one did you mean?
quote:
I was at a Storm seminar with my girlfriend who was getting lessons. Anyway the Storm rep there said that Black Magic polishes used in conjunction with STORM RESIN BALLS kill the reaction of the ball. Something about the material in storm resins and the properties in Black Magic polish dont mix well. Just food for thought.
Hmmm... that's interesting!!!
quote:
I wanted to add to this thread that since it was started I have polished my Blueberry Saw with Black magic twice. The first time I used it, it added a light gloss to the ball, and didn't seem to affect the reaction in any adverse way. The second time I applied it I definitely noticed a negative effect on the balls reaction. I've since wet sanded, and now I'm trying to decide between taking it to the pro shop and getting another brand of polish.
Hmmm... that's interesting also!!! You know, Black Magic may NOT be as good/safe as it's hyped up to be? I mean, sure the pro's all recommend it, but now I'm starting to wonder about Black Magic! I just wonder if the Pro's know what they're talking about on this one? I've heard several Negitive's about Black Magic on here and other places.
I think I may stay away from Black Magic.
Does anybody know anything about TRACK's "Magic Shine"? How high does it polish a ball up to? And does it keep the backend strong, or kill it like maybe Black Magic might possibly be doing?
Post by: charlest on March 24, 2004, 07:21:41 AM
quote:quote:
I've done a few balls where I put on a slightly heavier than normal dose of Black Magic and I got a LOT more length and a lot more ERRATIC backend.
Charlest,
When you say that the backend became ERRATIC... what did you mean by this? That the backend was so strong that it hooked too much and was too uncontrolable... or that it was inconsistent where as one ball would hook up strong and the next ball would come in late?
Which one did you mean?
I mean inconsistent reaction. Sometimes it seemed to kill the backend and sometimes it just went longer, as a heavier application would seem to allow. It seemed to vary by ball. Maybe the guy who indicated it "killed" Storm's balls, or rather their brand of reactive covers was right. Sinc eoil seems to affect different brands of resin covers differently, maybe different polishes affect these different resins differently also.
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"Just because you can do something does not mean you should do it."
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 24, 2004, 08:41:35 AM
Although I am not a Storm Ball fan, I have just started using Storm Steps 1-2-3 Polishes, but haven't used them enough to make a judgement call on them. Can anyone speak about these polishes.
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Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company
Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Post by: kendog on March 24, 2004, 09:12:00 AM
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kendog avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Post by: da Shiv on March 24, 2004, 10:06:19 AM
I really like all of the Neotac products and am very satisfied with all of them. I've never gotten a bad result on any ball from any manufacturer with any of these products.
I haven't been using Black Magic for very long, and I don't really need it that much anyway. My initial results were very good, but I don't have long term experience with it, and some of the comments on this board recently have made me a little cautious about it.
Outside of the Neotac stuff, my personal favorites in terms of good results have always been the Ebonite line. I use a lot of the Powerhouse Quicksand, and the even older stuff called simply "2000." It was part of step by step line they once had that included 900, 3000, and 5000. There were six in the line--I'm not sure what the others were--I believe there was a 600 as well. I stocked up on some of these when they were discontinued. (I try to remember to shake them all up occasionally, since I'm not going through them very fast.) Some bowling supply house was getting rid of the Ebonite numerical line not too long ago and sent me a flyer in the mail with outrageously low prices like $2.00 for an 8 or 10 oz. bottle. I spent about $20 and now I have a basement full of polish.
Storm hiked up their prices to distributors by a very large margin not too long ago. I don't know what was behind that--the stuff itself seems the same.
I tried some Track Magic Clean 'N' Polish awhile ago. It advertises a 5000 finish, and it is indeed shinier than anything else I've used. (Storm's Diamond Gloss advertised 5000 also, but I never tried that and it's defunct now.) The Clean 'N' Polish makes a marginally higher shine than Storm's Xtra Shine, which advertises 3500. Applying Black Magic on top of Clean 'N' Polish actually dulls the ball a bit! I have only once needed to use the ball with the Clean 'N' Polish on it and the results were what I expected and were satisfactory, but once isn't enough to make any kind of worthwhile evaluation of the product.
Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 24, 2004, 11:46:59 AM
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Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company
Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 24, 2004, 11:56:10 AM
Quote
....[The same thing goes with Elixir. I've talked to many bowlers who were dissatisfied with the stuff because it killed the reaction. Take that for what it's worth.]
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I tried using it for 3-4 months and the same thing happened to me. Since I don't have "much hand" and low revs, I had to quit using it. In addition to killing the action, it also caused my balls to "skid thru the break point." Even changing the ball surface didn't help. With higher revs, it might have worked for me, but with my low revs, it didn't.
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Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company
Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Edited on 3/24/2004 12:52 PM
Post by: Da Mutant Yoot on March 24, 2004, 11:18:03 PM
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Shoot first and ask questions later!!
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 25, 2004, 12:31:15 AM
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Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company
Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Post by: da Shiv on March 25, 2004, 08:59:53 AM
My usual cleaning regimen is to put the ball on the spinner and start it up and hold a paper towel with a generous amount of Hook-It on it on the ball, moving the paper towel up and down the ball. When I notice the paper towel seems to be starting to get drier, a take it off the ball and hold a clean towel (washcloth actually) on the ball to remove any residue. This last step is probably not even really necessary. I flip the ball 180 degrees and do the other side. Then I flip it 90 degrees and do the procedure again. Then another 180 flip and clean again. This way you get 4 "sides" of the ball. Generally the last two repetitions don't show any new grime on the paper towel and are probably not even necessary, but I'm obsessive--what can I say.
I think Hook-It can clean just as effectively without a spinner, but it takes longer and is more work.
I have another theory about Hook-It that is not claimed by Neotac, but seems to me to be the case. I think it soaks into the ball and displaces oil. I would not have noticed this on my equipment, since I clean obsessively. I noticed it because an older guy I bowl with finally consented to let me clean his ball partly because I was needling him about it's condition, but mostly because he was getting no reaction out of it anymore. I went at it with Hook-It and bar napkins on the settee table. The first several passes resulted in lots of black gunk coming off the ball. After that, what was coming out of the ball was yellow gunk--looking a lot like oil. It wasn't ball color--the ball had no yellow, green, or orange in it. Yellow gunk was still coming out of the ball when it was time to start league and I had to stop so I could go and wash the Hook-It off my hands and start bowling. This guy's ball had a noticeable pop on the backend that night and he bowled almost 100 over and won a couple pots. He's been using Hook-It ever since. Anyway, the main reason I told that last story is to advance my theory that Hook-It displaces lane oil in the ball.
Generous use of Hook-It like what I do makes it advisable to buy it by the quart--I use www.blockbusterbowling.com. Good prices, good selection, fast shipping.
Shiv
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Listening to the monotonous staccato of rain on my desk top
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 25, 2004, 09:12:07 AM
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Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company
Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Post by: da Shiv on March 30, 2004, 07:23:50 AM
As far as using Renew-It first, that's okay, but bear in mind that Renew-It has a polishing effect. If you don't want that, just go right to the Hook-It.
Shiv
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Forever let us hold our banner high
Post by: Brickguy221 on March 30, 2004, 11:26:11 AM
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Lane 1 - The Bowlers Company
Nothing hits as hard as an Uranium
Post by: JohnP on March 30, 2004, 11:40:38 AM
Post by: LeftE on March 30, 2004, 11:52:11 AM
It is a solvent, like Nail Polish. It "gently" softens the very surface of the coverstock, which is why it appears to remove the track area of some balls. That is why there is a warning not to let Hook It sit on the ball but to make sure you wipe all of it off.
Post by: kendog on March 30, 2004, 12:31:08 PM
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kendog avoids spare shooting at all costs
just throw strikes
Post by: da Shiv on March 30, 2004, 01:50:02 PM
I don't remember offhand what type of plastic that the bottles that Hook-It comes in are made out of, but they do have the recycle symbol on the bottom that tells you. Hook-It obviously has no effect on those.
I have a cleaning mixture that I use sometimes that consists of a 50-50 mixture of Renew-It and Hook-It. I originally got that idea from their website, but then that suggestion vanished for awhile. I think they have it back on there again. (Their website maintenance is a little squirrely) The pro shop I use uses that mixture as well. One time when I was mixing the proportions, I used a little plastic disposable Dixie cup, and the Hook-It attacked that plastic immediately, discoloring and melting it.
I'm a big fan of Hook-It, but I'm leery of carrying it around in my bowling bag. I don't want to find out the hard way what it's likely to dissolve in my bag if it starts to leak.
Shiv
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Forever let us hold our banner high
Post by: Ric Clint on April 08, 2004, 12:57:49 AM
quote:
I really think for me (emphasis on ME) I like to always scuff a ball before I apply polish; that way I expose fresh material in the cover. That's the one lesson I've learned lately. I won't just apply polish again.
kendog,
That's a good concept! Re-sand a ball before you re-apply the polish... I'm gonna start doing this!