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Author Topic: Pin up vs pin down????  (Read 10278 times)

ignitebowling

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Pin up vs pin down????
« on: May 07, 2018, 09:02:29 PM »
This questions comes up regularly on here, other bowling forums, facebook, instagram, manufacture videos and non-stop in the bowling centers and proshops. Interesting how little manufactures or USBC does to educate bowlers when it comes to some of these common misconceptions we hear or read about regularly in bowling. More times then not they only seem to try and muddy things up even more vs trying to make things clearly for bowlers and proshops.

Here is a short article on the subject along with some testing done with blueprint software showing the before and after effects on the core numbers along with the balls projected reaction on the lane.

See if the results are what you expected.


https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bW0f0gUqsAxRzOc3deQT1F26ZZGnzegx

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Impending Doom

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2018, 08:49:39 AM »
How dare you speak this into being???

I can totally dig where this article is coming from, but a couple of questions come to mind.

Yes, core numbers don't change, but the shape will. And drill angle will dictate different ball motion, as soon as you introduce any decent number of intermediate diff. I'm glad to see you picked a ball with a decent amount of diff, so no one could be like "Well, that doesn't matter because the core numbers are so low anyways"

But I see no responses to this since 9 last night. So let's see what happens.

Great write up!
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lefty50

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2018, 09:06:45 AM »
Would love to read it, but can you put it somewhere I don't need a Google login to view it?
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imagonman

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2018, 09:35:46 AM »
Quote from: lefty50 on May 08, 2018, 09:06:45 AM
Would love to read it, but can you put it somewhere I don't need a Google login to view it?

For those who don't have google:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v3ks3f3vf76r7e4/pinupordown.docx?dl=0
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HankScorpio

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2018, 12:30:54 PM »
My experience with the balls ive tried pin up/pin down on matches the results of that study. I’ve had much better luck getting different reactions out of balls using high/low flare drilling’s or by using weight holes.

That said, it’s an awfully simplistic study. Testing one symmetric ball with one pin distance isn’t all that conclusive. I don’t think changing other variables will affect the finds too much, but without the data it leaves the door open.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2018, 04:55:51 PM »
Quote from: Impending Doom on May 08, 2018, 08:49:39 AM
How dare you speak this into being???

I can totally dig where this article is coming from, but a couple of questions come to mind.

Yes, core numbers don't change, but the shape will. And drill angle will dictate different ball motion, as soon as you introduce any decent number of intermediate diff. I'm glad to see you picked a ball with a decent amount of diff, so no one could be like "Well, that doesn't matter because the core numbers are so low anyways"

But I see no responses to this since 9 last night. So let's see what happens.

Great write up!

Next will be done using a strong asymmetric core ball. Ebonite The Real One. Spoiler the changes in int diff between pin up and down are minimal.....and the on lane charting looks almost identical.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2018, 04:57:34 PM »
Quote from: HankScorpio on May 08, 2018, 12:30:54 PM
My experience with the balls ive tried pin up/pin down on matches the results of that study. I’ve had much better luck getting different reactions out of balls using high/low flare drilling’s or by using weight holes.

That said, it’s an awfully simplistic study. Testing one symmetric ball with one pin distance isn’t all that conclusive. I don’t think changing other variables will affect the finds too much, but without the data it leaves the door open.

Can do the same for 3" pin to pap 4" pin to pap etc with 25 val angle vs say a 70 degree val angle. The end results may surprise you.
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Impending Doom

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2018, 04:58:50 PM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on May 08, 2018, 04:55:51 PM
Quote from: Impending Doom on May 08, 2018, 08:49:39 AM
How dare you speak this into being???

I can totally dig where this article is coming from, but a couple of questions come to mind.

Yes, core numbers don't change, but the shape will. And drill angle will dictate different ball motion, as soon as you introduce any decent number of intermediate diff. I'm glad to see you picked a ball with a decent amount of diff, so no one could be like "Well, that doesn't matter because the core numbers are so low anyways"

But I see no responses to this since 9 last night. So let's see what happens.

Great write up!

Next will be done using a strong asymmetric core ball. Ebonite The Real One. Spoiler the changes in int diff between pin up and down are minimal.....and the on lane charting looks almost identical.

Well, I know the intermediate diff won't change, but I'm wondering if drilling a strong MB ball will cause the findings to be different.

I look forward to this!
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2018, 05:04:24 PM »
Something I edited a while back using a Radical ball video from youtube. See if you can guess which you think is a pin up and pin down reaction. It plays twice before going a third time with the answers revealed with the shot.



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HackJandy

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2018, 05:20:18 PM »
Quote from: ignitebowling on May 08, 2018, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: HankScorpio on May 08, 2018, 12:30:54 PM
My experience with the balls ive tried pin up/pin down on matches the results of that study. I’ve had much better luck getting different reactions out of balls using high/low flare drilling’s or by using weight holes.

That said, it’s an awfully simplistic study. Testing one symmetric ball with one pin distance isn’t all that conclusive. I don’t think changing other variables will affect the finds too much, but without the data it leaves the door open.

Can do the same for 3" pin to pap 4" pin to pap etc with 25 val angle vs say a 70 degree val angle. The end results may surprise you.

BTM has some articles saying the same thing but even says pin to pap only really makes much of a difference at the extremes and that weight holes only really make much of a difference on lower flaring layouts (they used Blueprint software also). Convinced me to quit re-drilling balls and not sweat layouts too much (seriously for most a 1/4" doesn't make a difference).  Layouts I dare say for at least many league bowlers disappears in the noise of their inconsistency.

(edit:  also good write up.  Data is always welcome)
« Last Edit: May 08, 2018, 05:40:44 PM by HackJandy »
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2018, 12:21:46 PM »
Quote from: HackJandy on May 08, 2018, 05:20:18 PM
Quote from: ignitebowling on May 08, 2018, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: HankScorpio on May 08, 2018, 12:30:54 PM
My experience with the balls ive tried pin up/pin down on matches the results of that study. I’ve had much better luck getting different reactions out of balls using high/low flare drilling’s or by using weight holes.

That said, it’s an awfully simplistic study. Testing one symmetric ball with one pin distance isn’t all that conclusive. I don’t think changing other variables will affect the finds too much, but without the data it leaves the door open.

Can do the same for 3" pin to pap 4" pin to pap etc with 25 val angle vs say a 70 degree val angle. The end results may surprise you.

BTM has some articles saying the same thing but even says pin to pap only really makes much of a difference at the extremes and that weight holes only really make much of a difference on lower flaring layouts (they used Blueprint software also). Convinced me to quit re-drilling balls and not sweat layouts too much (seriously for most a 1/4" doesn't make a difference).  Layouts I dare say for at least many league bowlers disappears in the noise of their inconsistency.

(edit:  also good write up.  Data is always welcome)

The great thing with the software is it gives you a better visual of track flare and the ability to compare different pin to pap ect.  Finding the best flare safe kind of options for you or anyone else to then use going forward and allowing surface changes to be the needed adjustment. For most bowlers on most house conditions it is hard to mess up. Demo days are a great example of that.
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northface28

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2018, 01:10:03 PM »
I did a seminar a long time ago and Chris Sand and Doene Moss told me pin up or pin down really doesnt matter. I agree, it really doesnt. There is so much misinformation in bowling.
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ignitebowling

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Re: Pin up vs pin down????
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2018, 02:03:51 PM »
Quote from: northface28 on May 09, 2018, 01:10:03 PM
I did a seminar a long time ago and Chris Sand and Doene Moss told me pin up or pin down really doesnt matter. I agree, it really doesnt. There is so much misinformation in bowling.

Agreed. Brunswick has some great videos you can find on youtube in regards to the cg, the pin up and pin down reaction, weight holes, etc. Most shot in the early 2000s and most of the information they had already been teaching since the 90s. Way ahead of anything USBC was doing in regards to rule changes based off essentially ignorance only. No different all these years later with new changes being implemented by USBC on weight holes. Not because they create advantages or hook but because of perception. Sadly in 12+ years USBC still has learned little and does little to inform bowlers.


It is amazing how little things can change.


If
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