BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: bowlingdude01 on September 12, 2021, 05:54:47 AM
-
i was wondering if i were to use a 2 inch pin to pap would i be able to mimic urethane
thanks in advance
-
Read most of this post: https://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/pro's-using-close-pin-to-papa/ (https://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/pro's-using-close-pin-to-papa/)
I did a Brunswick Ringer about 1" pin to PAP. It's somewhat close in that it's super smooth. The motion is kind unique. It basically scoots for 20 or so feet, then rolls the rest of the way. I like the reaction, but wish I'd have chosen another ball. Even though the Ringer wasn't considered a strong ball even when it was released, it still forces me to swing the ball more than I want. Now if other people use a lot of urethane and there's a decent amount of carry down, that's where the ball shines. I'm a little rev dominant, so if you're speed dominant, it might be exactly what you're looking for.
-
Read most of this post: https://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/pro's-using-close-pin-to-papa/ (https://www.ballreviews.com/miscellaneous/pro's-using-close-pin-to-papa/)
I did a Brunswick Ringer about 1" pin to PAP. It's somewhat close in that it's super smooth. The motion is kind unique. It basically scoots for 20 or so feet, then rolls the rest of the way. I like the reaction, but wish I'd have chosen another ball. Even though the Ringer wasn't considered a strong ball even when it was released, it still forces me to swing the ball more than I want. Now if other people use a lot of urethane and there's a decent amount of carry down, that's where the ball shines. I'm a little rev dominant, so if you're speed dominant, it might be exactly what you're looking for.
will do thank you strider
-
i was wondering if i were to use a 2 inch pin to pap would i be able to mimic urethane
thanks in advance
While you do get a urethane-esque ball roll; there are things to consider. 1. You still have to match up the cover to the amount of oil on the lane. 2. The resin with a short pin layout is going to give you more continuation through the pins than a urethane will if you have the right match up. 3. Urethane is best playing closer to the gutter because in order to get the urethane ball to go through the pins the right way; the ball needs to be coming from the outside part of the lane. 4. Resin balls with short pin are more versatile meaning you dont have to be hugging the gutter for them to be effective. I shot 825 playing straight up between 10-12 boards with a Track 300C one night during a summer league.
There are benefits to using both. But I found in my experiences that I score better and can move around the lane more with a short pin layout. Plus, even if you polish the cover to look like a marble; it still wont go sideways on the backend. I always go with an entry level type ball and keep it at 4000 plus polish (current ball is a new Messenger). It gets through the front part of the lane extremely well but so smooth on the backend. It allows me to go straight through the front part of the lane without the risk of the ball being skid/snap.
-
i was wondering if i were to use a 2 inch pin to pap would i be able to mimic urethane
thanks in advance
While you do get a urethane-esque ball roll; there are things to consider. 1. You still have to match up the cover to the amount of oil on the lane. 2. The resin with a short pin layout is going to give you more continuation through the pins than a urethane will if you have the right match up. 3. Urethane is best playing closer to the gutter because in order to get the urethane ball to go through the pins the right way; the ball needs to be coming from the outside part of the lane. 4. Resin balls with short pin are more versatile meaning you dont have to be hugging the gutter for them to be effective. I shot 825 playing straight up between 10-12 boards with a Track 300C one night during a summer league.
There are benefits to using both. But I found in my experiences that I score better and can move around the lane more with a short pin layout. Plus, even if you polish the cover to look like a marble; it still wont go sideways on the backend. I always go with an entry level type ball and keep it at 4000 plus polish (current ball is a new Messenger). It gets through the front part of the lane extremely well but so smooth on the backend. It allows me to go straight through the front part of the lane without the risk of the ball being skid/snap.
thanks twohand834 will take all that information into account i didnt even think about most of that i just cant make myself buy a urethane ball even tho i want the pearl urethane hammer but if i can mimc urethane with reactive resin i would rather do that
-
i was wondering if i were to use a 2 inch pin to pap would i be able to mimic urethane
thanks in advance
Are you a right handed bowler?
About what is your rev rate and ball speed? (Do you have any video of you bowling)
What are you bowling on where you think urethane would help?
-
i am right handed high ball speed(trying to lower that) i would say i am still have rev rate i bowl on ths and i was just looking to try something new i think it was mo pinel u could mimic urethane the house i bowl at right now is playing dryer then normal like i i said just looking for something different i have a after dark pearl that is great there i just wanted a diffferent look that is it
-
I, too, have had some success with a 2" pin ball. I ALWAYS have one around.
Does it mimic urethane? No. But it's a viable option when you want control with better carry than urethane.
If you compare the coverstocks only you'll see the difference. Urethane takes forever to absorb lane conditioner, and even with the best shammy on the market, you're leaving oil on the cover to some degree. This is why people's first game with urethane is almost always their highest score. As the cover collects oil it reads the friction less effectively, and get ready to shoot corner pins.
It would help if you could use a good cleaner between games, but USBC, in their infinite wisdom (and after years of declaring "legal" and "illegal" cleaners for use during play) says that's a no no.
With reactive resin the cover can "refresh" itself more quickly by absorbing some of the oil, and combined with shammy use, the ball has clean surface that can "react" or respond to the friction more effectively and drive through the pin deck with less deflection, etc.
If you're Jesper Svensson and throw it 21mph with 600+ revs you can make urethane work, much to the dismay of everyone else on your pair, due to carry-down. But the average bowler with "human" skills will struggle with carry as the lanes transition and as your urethane collects oil on the cover.
Is there a place for urethane? Yes, but I believe it's more limited than we want to believe. On the typical house patterns with defined dryer area (outside) and clean backends a stable reaction (2"pin) reactive ball will increase your carry percentage and still allow enough control.
-
i am right handed high ball speed(trying to lower that) i would say i am still have rev rate i bowl on ths and i was just looking to try something new i think it was mo pinel u could mimic urethane the house i bowl at right now is playing dryer then normal like i i said just looking for something different i have a after dark pearl that is great there i just wanted a diffferent look that is it
1.5 - 2" pin on something like a Hammer Raw black solid, Radical Counter Attack solid or whatever is comparable from your favorite ball company is a good choice. Urethane for right-handers on THS typically all look the same with the bowler standing way too far left to get the ball through the heads and after a game or so are no longer hitting the pocket and leaving buckets and 2-8s etc. If you're not left handed, or a higher rev right-hander playing on flatter conditions urethane is not your friend.
With a shorter pin layout and light to medium surface you get a ball that revs up sooner and smoothes out its response to friction. Great for playing straighter angles, especially on house shots with flying backends. Once you start moving left to open your angles the ball will flat 10 or worse all day.
-
i am right handed high ball speed(trying to lower that) i would say i am still have rev rate i bowl on ths and i was just looking to try something new i think it was mo pinel u could mimic urethane the house i bowl at right now is playing dryer then normal like i i said just looking for something different i have a after dark pearl that is great there i just wanted a diffferent look that is it
1.5 - 2" pin on something like a Hammer Raw black solid, Radical Counter Attack solid or whatever is comparable from your favorite ball company is a good choice. Urethane for right-handers on THS typically all look the same with the bowler standing way too far left to get the ball through the heads and after a game or so are no longer hitting the pocket and leaving buckets and 2-8s etc. If you're not left handed, or a higher rev right-hander playing on flatter conditions urethane is not your friend.
With a shorter pin layout and light to medium surface you get a ball that revs up sooner and smoothes out its response to friction. Great for playing straighter angles, especially on house shots with flying backends. Once you start moving left to open your angles the ball will flat 10 or worse all day.
thanks ignitebowling will definitely do this then buy urethane
-
i am right handed high ball speed(trying to lower that) i would say i am still have rev rate i bowl on ths and i was just looking to try something new i think it was mo pinel u could mimic urethane the house i bowl at right now is playing dryer then normal like i i said just looking for something different i have a after dark pearl that is great there i just wanted a diffferent look that is it
1.5 - 2" pin on something like a Hammer Raw black solid, Radical Counter Attack solid or whatever is comparable from your favorite ball company is a good choice. Urethane for right-handers on THS typically all look the same with the bowler standing way too far left to get the ball through the heads and after a game or so are no longer hitting the pocket and leaving buckets and 2-8s etc. If you're not left handed, or a higher rev right-hander playing on flatter conditions urethane is not your friend.
With a shorter pin layout and light to medium surface you get a ball that revs up sooner and smoothes out its response to friction. Great for playing straighter angles, especially on house shots with flying backends. Once you start moving left to open your angles the ball will flat 10 or worse all day.
thanks ignitebowling will definitely do this then buy urethane
Watch this video. Gives you the best visual difference between short pin and urethane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5nhjZLF6nU
-
i am right handed high ball speed(trying to lower that) i would say i am still have rev rate i bowl on ths and i was just looking to try something new i think it was mo pinel u could mimic urethane the house i bowl at right now is playing dryer then normal like i i said just looking for something different i have a after dark pearl that is great there i just wanted a diffferent look that is it
1.5 - 2" pin on something like a Hammer Raw black solid, Radical Counter Attack solid or whatever is comparable from your favorite ball company is a good choice. Urethane for right-handers on THS typically all look the same with the bowler standing way too far left to get the ball through the heads and after a game or so are no longer hitting the pocket and leaving buckets and 2-8s etc. If you're not left handed, or a higher rev right-hander playing on flatter conditions urethane is not your friend.
With a shorter pin layout and light to medium surface you get a ball that revs up sooner and smoothes out its response to friction. Great for playing straighter angles, especially on house shots with flying backends. Once you start moving left to open your angles the ball will flat 10 or worse all day.
thanks ignitebowling will definitely do this then buy urethane
Watch this video. Gives you the best visual difference between short pin and urethane.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5nhjZLF6n
you are right you can definitely see the difference. the only reason i thought about this is right now the lanes i am bowling on the shot is playing much drier do the the fact that where i live(kansas) it is hot and for this time of year some what humid so i was looking for something that i could use first other than my after dark pearl dont get me wrong it works great i just i have to keep up with the transition and i am fine but when i get on a lane where everybody is playing outside of 10 the shot dries up even faster so i looking to try this type of layout i am going to think about it now
thanks TWOHAND834
-
Maybe depending on how you roll the ball, and for what condition.
But the short answer is NO.
I have both (short pin and urethane) and they are nothing like each other.
Although some of the newer "urethane" balls are not urethane. Which may be confusing the situation. I have a collection of "urethane" balls. They are not the same. Pitch Black or Purple Hammer will dig in and hook about as much (just differently) than many reactive. I also have an old Natural, Fever Pitch, Fast Pitch which are all significantly weaker than any reactive.
If someone wants urethane, buy urethane. If you want weak/control reactive, fine do the short pin to PAP.
I guess if someone is looking for a THS ball, then get the reactive. Urethane is for specific sport shot conditions, why anyone would get one for league baffles me. And I have a collection of them. I leave them at home for regular league night.
I would also guess that most people asking this question are looking for a control reactive ball. If that is what you want, then do the short pin to pap and you'll probably be happier than with a urethane.
-
I, too, have had some success with a 2" pin ball. I ALWAYS have one around.
Does it mimic urethane? No. But it's a viable option when you want control with better carry than urethane.
If you compare the coverstocks only you'll see the difference. Urethane takes forever to absorb lane conditioner, and even with the best shammy on the market, you're leaving oil on the cover to some degree. This is why people's first game with urethane is almost always their highest score. As the cover collects oil it reads the friction less effectively, and get ready to shoot corner pins.
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh at this. Actually not "at" this, but WITH this.
You just reminded me of my first real game with a Faball Blue Hammer, after picking it up after my youth league back in 1990. I was just coming off of an Ebonite Gyro.. the polished light blue one, 1/32nd sideweight, full conventional grip. Took both balls to my Junior Traveling Classic league the following day, where we were at a house at Peacekeeper Lanes at Offutt AFB...
Pulled out the Hammer and shot 248 out of the box, and this is with me carrying a 165 average at the most. Went 213-210 for the rest of the block. Immediately afterwards, I started to save the money to pick up the Blue Pearl Hammer a month later.
Dammit, how right you are with the bold!
BL.
-
i think i am going to try a 2 inch pin to pap first then if i want to start bowling tournaments i will buy a urethane but i must say urethane does really appeal to me just because i have never thrown urethane
-
Urethane definitely has its place. I wouldn't throw urethane in league, but I have definitely thrown it at tournaments.
I tend to use it for specific conditions, such as when there is an extremely cliffed shot and I'm getting over/under like crazy....then that's the time to throw urethane to blend the shot.
Or if I go to a tournament and they put out a shot with no reverse buff, then I'm throwing urethane. But in general, urethane locks you into only playing the outside of the lanes from the 1-10 board depending on the amount of traffic.
These newer balls are urethane blends and generally much stronger than old conventional urethane pieces. If you are extremely rev dominant then I can understand the appeal, however for the most part you don't have a use for it.
The PBA pros get away with throwing urethane because they bowl on much lighter and flatter conditions than most house shots present.
The short pin is the way to go in my opinion.
-
Urethane definitely has its place. I wouldn't throw urethane in league, but I have definitely thrown it at tournaments.
I tend to use it for specific conditions, such as when there is an extremely cliffed shot and I'm getting over/under like crazy....then that's the time to throw urethane to blend the shot.
Or if I go to a tournament and they put out a shot with no reverse buff, then I'm throwing urethane. But in general, urethane locks you into only playing the outside of the lanes from the 1-10 board depending on the amount of traffic.
These newer balls are urethane blends and generally much stronger than old conventional urethane pieces. If you are extremely rev dominant then I can understand the appeal, however for the most part you don't have a use for it.
The PBA pros get away with throwing urethane because they bowl on much lighter and flatter conditions than most house shots present.
The short pin is the way to go in my opinion.
The PBA pros absolutely do not bowl on "much lighter" conditions. In fact, some of the conditions where they throw urethane is around 30 ml of oil.
-
For the original question a 2 inch pin can be a great layout for some tournament patterns. However the shell is still a bigger factor. A 2 inch pin on mon urethane wont give you what you are looking for with urethane.
-
A short pin-to-PAP distance basically creates a (very) early rolling ball, almost killing its break point. While the reaction shape might superficially look like a urethane shell's, the ball dynamics are very different.
It's a very special layout, IMHO useful on lanes with good head oil (it tends to burn up easily!) and spotty back ends (where urethane is not really useful!), when you need control and not a huge, flippy reaction with a sudden change of direction. You can still make such a ball hook, thoiugh, through release changes.
I have a vintage Particle Power Groove, because of its high RG and rel. strong RG differential, drilled up this way and polished for use on medium to lightly oiled, spotty lanes. This ball fills a narrow niche in my league/tournament bag, it is VERY special, and not a urethane alternative.
-
Very good analysis dizzy. I made s lot of money in a couple of tournaments years ago with a 2x2 layout. However I very seldom saw conditions where the layout was useful. In addition that layout worked better when I used an axis hole which would not be allowed today.
-
My ATF ball with a 2" pin and a weight hole, which I hate are no longer allowed, in a short video along with a 5" pin Hammer Rebel for comparison. Video is on a fresh house condition.
The last shot is an overlay of throwing the two on the same line where the 5" pin goes through the face and the 2" pin strikes. There was a time where the back ends on our house shot were so much the 2" pin ball was the go to for the first game to game and a half i then it was move left and open it up with the 5" pin.
On short patterns is where the 2" pin option for me looks so much better. Especially with how much volume some of the short patterns have up front. The urethane clears the heads too much and never recovers with my rev rate (400rpms). The 2" pin option is strong enough to pickup some in the fronts amd still recover on the friction it sees down lane. When trying to play the same line on a short pattern with a 4.5" to 5" pin ball it reads the friction way too much way too soon and goes left with no hope.
-
yeah i am going to go with the 2 in pin to pap just got to talk to my pso and see what he thinks what ball we should do it with thanks everyone
-
yeah i am going to go with the 2 in pin to pap just got to talk to my pso and see what he thinks what ball we should do it with thanks everyone
If what you say is true regarding the lanes being drier than normal, you will need to stay low end to have a cover weak enough to still give you some push. I would do something like a Tropical Surge and do a 80 x 2 x 45. But if you have pretty good ball speed (18+ mph), you could go the next step up to something like a Beast, Hustle, or Electrify.
-
thanks twohand834 yeah they are drier at least till fall hits around here then they will play like they put some more oil out and it also does not help that almost every team my team bowls against play the same area and i try not to play too far right but they get toasty fast and will look into beast don't know what my ball speed is but my pso has known me a long time so i will talk to him and see what he thinks thanks again
-
I find the complete opposite of most that have posted. My stats. are in profile. For me if I don't use enough ball and layout a 2" to 2.5" pin to PAP I have to go ultra straight. When I try and bend it/swing it with my stats. It hits flat or not enough drive to carry back row even on light volume and shine. IMO for average house hacks that understand the term skid, hook, roll 2" pins are OK on a bigger ball, entry level unless you are dead straight down and in forget it.
-
Purpose of the 2 in pin is so I can play straighter and not have to swing it a bunch. Not designed to open up the lane
-
Purpose of the 2 in pin is so I can play straighter and not have to swing it a bunch. Not designed to open up the lane
For bowlers that are used to swinging it even slightly that mindset is ingrained. All I am saying is forget that unless you use a bigger ball then you might swing it a couple of boards but you'll be straighter by in large. That's all said so bowlers understand this most do not IMO.
-
Hi Bowlingdude01 - My question is why do you think you want a Urethane ball? I have several, but rarely use them. I bowled the US Open in El Paso which was a sport short pattern. I talked with the local PSO's and bought a Black Widow, drilled 30 x 3 x 55 = 85 Dual Angle. As an experiment I have used it a few times in league. If you are looking for a ball that hooks less I would suggest a medium level RG Ball, 2.5, solid, with a Dual Angle layout around 70 x 5 x 75 = 145. This ball will stay in front of you and hit the pocket with authority! Gold Level Coach ABE Denny O'Neill
-
Hi Bowlingdude01 - My question is why do you think you want a Urethane ball? I have several, but rarely use them. I bowled the US Open in El Paso which was a sport short pattern. I talked with the local PSO's and bought a Black Widow, drilled 30 x 3 x 55 = 85 Dual Angle. As an experiment I have used it a few times in league. If you are looking for a ball that hooks less I would suggest a medium level RG Ball, 2.5, solid, with a Dual Angle layout around 70 x 5 x 75 = 145. This ball will stay in front of you and hit the pocket with authority! Gold Level Coach ABE Denny O'Neill
Dakota the real reason is that i have never thrown urethane and i was thinking about bowling a sport shot league this summer and i also wanted urethane because the shot at my center for the time being till it gets colder and drier where i live is that the shot is playing dryer and i was wanted to know if that was a good option i now know that i will being getting something that is about the same weakness as my after dark pearl and more then likely i will try a 2 inch pin to pap or what ever my pso thinks we should put on it like i said though i am going to talk pso when he gets back from his vacay
-
Unless it's something like a Mix, urethane is not for dry lanes. Urethane reads friction early and hooks less on the back end. Using it on dry is a recipe for disaster. You're likely going to be forced deeper and leave a ton of 10 pins, 8-10s, etc. (assuming you're right handed). Urethane is best suited for short-medium (flatter) patterns with medium-heavy volumes. Also can be used on some longer patterns if you have the hand for it.
-
If someone wants a dry lane urethane ball, the only place can really get one (other than a Mix) is on ebay.
The balls in Natural line could be used for dry. But after that everything became much more aggressive.
-
Mo Pinels recommended layout of 90* x 2-1/4" x 45* for both Assymetrical and Symmetrical is supposed to emulate a urethane reaction.