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Author Topic: Struggling with Asyms...  (Read 3247 times)

toneoak1

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Struggling with Asyms...
« on: February 15, 2019, 01:22:08 PM »
I can't seem to get a decent reaction from asymmetrical bowling balls.  Why is this?  I don't have the specifics on all of my specs. For example, I don't know my exact axis tilt.  I've never had this measured. I'm left handed, have a high track, and am around 325 RPMs of rev rate.  I'm definitely speed/rev matched.  I tend to set the ball down early.  The majority of the shots off my hand are silent.  I ended last year averaging 235 and am consistently over 225.  The shot at our local alley changes from week to week, sometimes drastically. If any of that is helpful.

The problem is, I would like to take advantage of the added motion of asym equipment but can't.  The last 4 asym balls I've had, I've hated.  I never saw the turn over or flip in any of them.  I had a Storm Virtual Gravity (yes this was a while ago) and I'm pretty sure I'm the only guy on the planet that didn't like that ball.  I had it plugged and re-layed it out and still nothing.  I got rid of it and tried a Storm Invasion;  Hated it.  Down and in was all it did and even then had to be careful.  Couldn't belly it at all, which is my typical shot shape.  Got rid of it.  After some time I thought I'd try one again.  (older=wiser right?) I picked up a Motiv Trident after LOVING my previous 4 motiv balls.  Same issue.  Hated it.  No "booming" move what-so-ever.  I have a ball spinner and I tried polishing it; Nope. Sanding it; Nothing. Trying many different surface grits; Nada.  Put it back in the bag after half a season of experimenting.  Went to get it out for this season and it had cracked all the way around.  Best thing that could have happened.  Got a Motiv Rogue Blade and that ball hockey-sticks for me. 

My guess is the ball is too aggressive for my style and is burning up before it gets to the break point.  After talking to a buddy about it we noticed my last few asyms were all aggressive SOLIDs.  Maybe an asym pearl would help. Something like a Golden Jackyl

I am a mere mortal that has to pay retail or close to it for my bowling balls and can't afford a $270 "experiment". 

Anyone in the same boat?????
Any Ideas?????

 

AlonzoHarris

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2019, 04:31:58 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

I donít know where anyone can use a Ripíd up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?
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J_w73

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2019, 04:43:39 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

I donít know where anyone can use a Ripíd up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?

I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot.  The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet.  I tried to move and there was no swinging.  When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket.  Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape.  I just don't get it.  And I had polished up everything I had because I had bowled on a dry shot at a different house.  I had the same thing with my widow legend.  Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 05:20:14 PM by J_w73 »
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BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2019, 05:02:04 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

I donít know where anyone can use a Ripíd up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?

I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot.  The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet.  I tried to move and there was no swinging.  When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket.  Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape.  I just don't get it.  And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house.  I had the same thing with my widow legend.  Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.

Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well.  Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much.   Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line.  They are made to move inside and catch oil.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 05:05:45 PM by BowlingForDonuts »
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J_w73

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2019, 05:29:39 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

I donít know where anyone can use a Ripíd up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?

I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot.  The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet.  I tried to move and there was no swinging.  When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket.  Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape.  I just don't get it.  And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house.  I had the same thing with my widow legend.  Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.

Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well.  Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much.   Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line.  They are made to move inside and catch oil.

I've heard that before, but these balls aren't going to move on heavy long oil either, so what is the point?  The Idol is the only strong ball that actually just hooks and doesn't have this "there isn't enough oil for it to hook" problem.  Only ball that just hooks more, the more I sand it... That is the type of ball cover I want. 
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BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2019, 05:33:02 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

I donít know where anyone can use a Ripíd up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?

I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot.  The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet.  I tried to move and there was no swinging.  When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket.  Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape.  I just don't get it.  And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house.  I had the same thing with my widow legend.  Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.

Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well.  Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much.   Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line.  They are made to move inside and catch oil.

I've heard that before, but these balls aren't going to move on heavy long oil either, so what is the point?  The Idol is the only strong ball that actually just hooks and doesn't have this "there isn't enough oil for it to hook" problem.  Only ball that just hooks more, the more I sand it... That is the type of ball cover I want.

Won't argue that.  Asyms are overrated in general imo.  Condition specific by definition usually.  Symmetrics can burn up too of course but generally results in pocket splits or hitting soft instead of not hooking at all.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 05:37:28 PM by BowlingForDonuts »
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toneoak1

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #51 on: March 06, 2019, 02:35:52 PM »
To be really clear Toneoak1, I would like to understand.

Way back in your orignial one or two posts you mentioned that you plugged and redrilled your original Virtual Gravity.  Was that after buying it from another bowler?  Or after buying new and drilling it the first time?

You see the only reason is that as a lefty also I would occasionally pick up Assym balls from righties.  Usually when I switch to Lefty I do not find the to be full horsepower even after a single redrill.

For Symmetric I also often switch righty balls to lefty and don't encounter this problem

Note I do not run into this problem as much when the MB is under the thumb already or if symmetric is a label leverage for a righty.  Then it seems the ball with virtually only moving the fingers is full horse power on the left.

Another thing I have noticed,  Well that is enough for now!

Regards,

Luckylefty

Good point.  That ball was brand new. It didn't do for me what it did for every other person I've ever seen throw it, so I had it plugged and re-layed out.  Didn't seem to do much good.

toneoak1

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #52 on: March 06, 2019, 02:37:34 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

Glad to know it's not just me.

J_w73

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #53 on: March 06, 2019, 02:51:36 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

Glad to know it's not just me.

I too did the same as you with the Virtual Gravity.  Everyone was killing it with the VG so I got one.  It wasn't a complete dud for me, but it didn't do what everyone else was getting it to do.  I also recently got a Cash when it was BTM's highest rated hooking ball.  Did nothing.  Right after I got it I threw it and the guy that drilled it was like "what happened?" This was on a house shot.  He had me throw a bunch of shots on other parts of the lane and he couldn't explain it. He said that ball should either go crazy left or hit dry and roll forward.  Like every other ball it did neither.. just sat there rotating down the lane not hooking and when it did read still not hooking. I don't have a ton of revs but I'm pretty matched so it isn't for lack of rpm.  On a house shot, I can usually swing the whole lane with my rebel yell...  I just picked up a Sure Lock so I'll see how that goes.  5" pin to PAP with the MB just to the right of the thumb.. I was going to drill it like an Alias to negate the MB, but it had already got punched up.  That might be my next experiment with an asymmetric ball.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 02:54:08 PM by J_w73 »
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AlonzoHarris

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #54 on: March 06, 2019, 03:05:15 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

I donít know where anyone can use a Ripíd up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?

I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot.  The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet.  I tried to move and there was no swinging.  When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket.  Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape.  I just don't get it.  And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house.  I had the same thing with my widow legend.  Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.

Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well.  Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much.   Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line.  They are made to move inside and catch oil.

I've heard that before, but these balls aren't going to move on heavy long oil either, so what is the point?  The Idol is the only strong ball that actually just hooks and doesn't have this "there isn't enough oil for it to hook" problem.  Only ball that just hooks more, the more I sand it... That is the type of ball cover I want.

Won't argue that.  Asyms are overrated in general imo.  Condition specific by definition usually.  Symmetrics can burn up too of course but generally results in pocket splits or hitting soft instead of not hooking at all.

Asym balls are a beautiful thing to have in the bag if you can figure out what drilling works for you game on them. I personally think they are worth the exploration to figure it out.  Most that don't like them just haven't dialed one in yet because they are so dynamic.
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avabob

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #55 on: March 06, 2019, 03:21:06 PM »
Obviously you hsve some game with your average.  80% of ball reaction is surface, not core so you are not going to get as big a difference with the asym as you expect.  Also,  You may be right about the asyms burning early.  The problem is taming the surface may give you more reaction than you want off the dry. 

Geigs

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2019, 03:33:20 PM »
Great point Alonzo. Most people just put their favorite, same drilling in asymmetricals that they have in their symmetricals. Drilling asymmetricals are totally different. They retain tilt, side roll, energy most with pin distances 2 3/4- 4 1/2 from a bowlers pap. As you gat away from that distance, say 6 inch pin to pap it will do the opposite and lose tilt. Perfect example for me is my conspiracy drilled stacked 4 1/2x4 1/2 that retains energy is clean and backends compared to my dv8 rebellion with a 6 1/4 inch pin that burns up early. Conspiracy flares a ton more, yet goes longer and flips harder. I find that very interesting. Conspiracy is great for heavy oil, carry down. Rebellion is early and smooth. great for shorter patterns, and wet dry. So they both have their place in my bag. Both great balls. With the new no hole rule coming you are going to see a lot more asymmetricals from companies in the future. So itís a matter of experimenting and fine tuning what drillingís work for your game, just as Alonzo said.

BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #57 on: March 06, 2019, 03:35:47 PM »
If it's worth anything, I've been experimenting with my ripd.  I polished it up and it reacts way better.  Might be defeating the purpose of the ball but it still seemed to out hook the rest of my equipment. 

Well maybe not.  The Rip'd did ok on drier lanes, but  I took it to another house and not much would move.  Had to take the rip'd to 2000 for it to see some motion and this was still playing straight up 8.. miss right and it was not hooking back .... but of course all my $80 balls out hooked the Rip'd and my Widow legend.. The rip'd wouldn't move much or recover, but my rebel yell was hooking back from places nothing else would.. also my venom shock was earlier, but also hooked more and looked better... so I don't know.   I think I just hate asymmetricals too.

I donít know where anyone can use a Ripíd up the 8 board on a house shot. Did you try moving an entire zone in and seeing what it did?

I'll say this isn't a typical house shot.. it's a house that doesn't know how to put out a shot.  The lanes are usually never playable right of 8, even when they are dry, but yesterday they were just wet.  I tried to move and there was no swinging.  When it was polished it just didn't move much, so I kept hitting it with pads until I saw enough motion to get to the pocket.  Now I'm sure I could have really slowed down and got it to move, but my point is that my other stuff was hooking more and had better motion and shape.  I just don't get it.  And I had polished up everything I had because I was bowled on a dry shot at a different house.  I had the same thing with my widow legend.  Little movement, just a smoother shape than the Rip'd.

Black Widow Legend is a strong ball as well.  Almost always when strong balls aren't hooking its because there is too little oil not too much.   Strong balls are generally not best on the outside line.  They are made to move inside and catch oil.

I've heard that before, but these balls aren't going to move on heavy long oil either, so what is the point?  The Idol is the only strong ball that actually just hooks and doesn't have this "there isn't enough oil for it to hook" problem.  Only ball that just hooks more, the more I sand it... That is the type of ball cover I want.

Won't argue that.  Asyms are overrated in general imo.  Condition specific by definition usually.  Symmetrics can burn up too of course but generally results in pocket splits or hitting soft instead of not hooking at all.

Asym balls are a beautiful thing to have in the bag if you can figure out what drilling works for you game on them. I personally think they are worth the exploration to figure it out.  Most that don't like them just haven't dialed one in yet because they are so dynamic.

TL;DR +1.  More flexibility on layouts is a good thing for many people especially with balance holes soon 86ed.  Just tend to score better with symmetrics but probably mostly due to not getting my release rock solid consistent yet.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 03:56:17 PM by BowlingForDonuts »
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J_w73

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Re: Struggling with Asyms...
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2019, 11:13:50 PM »
J_w73[/quote]

I too did the same as you with the Virtual Gravity.  Everyone was killing it with the VG so I got one.  It wasn't a complete dud for me, but it didn't do what everyone else was getting it to do.  I also recently got a Cash when it was BTM's highest rated hooking ball.  Did nothing.  Right after I got it I threw it and the guy that drilled it was like "what happened?" This was on a house shot.  He had me throw a bunch of shots on other parts of the lane and he couldn't explain it. He said that ball should either go crazy left or hit dry and roll forward.  Like every other ball it did neither.. just sat there rotating down the lane not hooking and when it did read still not hooking. I don't have a ton of revs but I'm pretty matched so it isn't for lack of rpm.  On a house shot, I can usually swing the whole lane with my rebel yell...  I just picked up a Sure Lock so I'll see how that goes.  5" pin to PAP with the MB just to the right of the thumb.. I was going to drill it like an Alias to negate the MB, but it had already got punched up.  That might be my next experiment with an asymmetric ball.
[/quote]

Well the Sure Lock hooks. A little over 5 inch pin to pap , pin over middle finger, mb just to  the right of the thumb hole.  Ball hooked early and when I threw it harder it was still hooking back from places my rip'd solid , legend, and idol wouldn't recover from.  I could get them to hook but had to throw much slower..  Idol was about as early but when I threw it harder it just didn't have the recovery.  My Legend is drilled pretty much the same with a 4000 cover.  Idol same pin to pap, cover at 2000.  Rip'd has cover at 2000, 4" pin to Pap, mb about an inch farther right than the surelock and legend.  Pap is 4 3/4 over and 1/4 up.
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